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@RIOT, Why 'Report Calling / Lobbying for mass reports' should NOT be a thing

Chønklord··8 votes·1,999 views

#Alternative title: "I'm going to make your brain hurt in under 1000 words" or, #"This horse will be continually beaten until Riot gives the community a more definitive answer"     ##Let me posit this to you

If I'm told report calling is not punishable unless used intentionally to harass others, but I unintentionally use it to harass others, am I then liable to be punished for using it to harass others?

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

##We know that the system knows the difference between a "false report" and a "real report" as it pertains to the player being flagged/reported; If it's a false report nothing happens to the player. If it's a real report, the player is flagged/punished.   ##But do we know that the system knows the difference between an "intentional false report" and an "unintentional false report" as it pertains to the player(s) lobbying the report(s)?  

  Let's say we're looking at the algorithm code for how a report is handled in the system.

Report validation algorithm (aka Very shitty 'code')

Report filed against PlayerX {

Verify if Report = valid {

If Report = valid,

Then Punish PlayerX; } else {

If Report = invalid,

Then Discard Report; }

}

This defines how a report and the result against "PlayerX" is handled. Either PlayerX is guilty, in which case he's punished, or he's not guilty, in which case the report is discarded. For the sake of simplicity, we understand the system has a way of figuring out if PlayerX was actually a bad boy or not, perhaps based on his past account punishments for similar report incidents, etc.   ##What is not clearly defined is the how the system handles the intent of the player making the report call.

Report validation algorithm v2 (aka Very shitty 'code' v2)

PlayerY filed Report against PlayerX {

Verify if PlayerY(Report) = valid; {

If Report = valid,

Then Punish PlayerX; } else {

If Report = invalid,

Discard Report; }

The Second half we know nothing about

Then {

Define PlayerY(Intent); {

When Intent = Toxic[yes],

Then Punish PlayerY; } else {

When Intent = Toxic[no],

End; }

}

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

I'm pretty sure i'm missing a } somewhere in there but whatever. You should be able to get the gist of it. Now imagine "PlayerY" making these reports on a regular basis. Some are real reports and some are false reports; is there a limit to the number of (unintentional) false reports? What happens to PlayerY say, after, 20 false reports and 10 real reports? Or 30:5? Or 100:1?

What about the player who's on the receiving end of PlayerY's (unintentional) false reports?

  • If PlayerY isn't punished for making unintentionally false report calls, are we supposed to just accept that other person gets unintentionally harassed?

  • If PlayerY is punished for making unintentionally false report calls, are we supposed to just accept that punishment for the innocent PlayerY?

What about player/game collateral?

  • What if PlayersA, B, and C start harassing/griefing/focusing on the person being report called on? Sure they're liable for punishment (verbal abuse), but the damaging side-effects of the report calling is already done.

  • What if those other players start believing report calling is a valid tool, and start doing it themselves in future games? What if they assume their own accounts might be in jeopardy if someone report calls them?  

 

##"B b but Mr. B. Bonobo, report calling never done hurt no ones, and it makes me feel guuuuud!"

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Here's why you are wrong. It does affect others.

  1. Falsely 'report call' innocent players of wrongdoing If unintentional, innocent player then: A. Feels harassed B. Is bullied by other players C. Becomes angry and/or frustrated D. Loses focus on his/her game E. Feels the need to defend self F. Some or All of the above If intentional, then in addition to the above, the player 'report calling': A. May be punished for harassment (if counter-reported) B. Creates negative game environment C. Shifts focus of others to "guilty" party D. Escalates chat to toxic levels E. All of the Above
  2. Purposefully 'report call' guilty players of wrongdoing Tends to result in the guilty player: A. Escalating their toxicity in chat B. Escalating their game trolling (int feeding/going afk/etc) C. Harassing the 'report call' player D. Harassing other players that also 'report call' E. Shifting focus of other players from the game F. All of the Above

Not to forget, if 'report calling' punishments are conditional in this fashion, what happens to the player who unintentionally harasses innocent players with 'report calling' on a regular basis?

Either way, none of these scenarios result in a positive game experience when someone uses chat to lobby mass reports. Since you only need one report to count, there is no reason to ever let report calling be acceptable, conditional or otherwise.

 

 

#I will now drop the mic quote Riot employees [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

  ##"Outdated/Incorrect" Riot Position

RH1. Riot Husker: "Calling for others to report a player is a punishable offense. It is a form of bullying and as such is against the summoner code."

Corroborates RT1, RT2, RT3.

RH2. Riot Husker: "Don't feel pressured in to doing something by your team mates asking you to report a player. It's all recorded and all counts. "

Corroborates RT1, RT6, RT7

 

 

##"New/Clarified" Riot Position

RK1. Riot NaKyle: "[. . .] whether or not we dish out penalties to players who ask for reports. Just to be super clear, we don't. If a player used asking for reports as a leaping off point for actual harassment, that's when we'd blow the whistle."

This statement is poorly worded and creates more confusion and vagueness. There are two halves to this statement.

First half: "We do not punish players that ask for reports"; Second half: "We punish players that ask for reports if there is also 'actual harassment'" (Contradictions RH1, RH2, RK2, RK3, RT5).

RK2. Riot NaKyle: "Report calling is often a minor negative thing, but say there's a spectrum of chat where 1 is hyper-friendly, 5 is neutral, and 10 is literal death threats,** this is like a 6**."

If Report calling is "often a 'minor negative thing' and 'like a 6' on a scale of Super Nice to I will end your life", why is it still acceptable behavior? Six is above 'Neutral', according to Riot NaKyle; so you can be toxic/harass others as long as its almost neutrally harassing them?

RK3. Riot NaKyle: "Husker's post mischaracterizes the severity of report calling by equating it with outright flaming and bullying. Report calling is bad but its not that bad (by what the community tells us through reports)". If you're looking to make an impact on the community, the absolute best thing you can do is submit earnest, thorough reports when you see some shit you don't want in your game.

So the community says that Report calling is OK, but Report calling + chat toxicity is BAD (Contradiction: RT4, RT5). Report calling is "bad but not that bad"; strange, I don't remember ever reporting someone for "I only want a little bit of this bad behavior in my games". Pretty sure if I reported someone for something, it's because I don't want any of it in my games, period.

 

 

##The original "gospel" and why we believed the way we did

RT1. Riot Tantram: "Multiple reports do NOT increase the likelihood of flagging a game for review. One report is all it takes. There is no benefit to asking for others to report a player."

A big problem and source of this confusing "report calling" mess, is that your "average joe" player doesn't know this information. Riot needs to beef up / update their knowledge base and how they release Player Behavior press releases to the community at large. Maybe adding a nice, big "Support" menu link in the game client itself is a good place to start.

RT2. Riot Tantram: "Asking for reports serves no purposeother than to tell the person you are reporting that you are reporting. It's an "I'm telling on you" comment."

He seems to get it here, but then he contradicts himself (RT3) after Riot NaKyle made the update.

RT3. Riot Tantram: "But, asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment. A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty. But calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative."

Self contradictory / Unclear / vague information. So asking for reports "can be a tool to harass others" and the system "detects that you're using it that way", really? An amalgam of code can decipher human intention? Show me, please.

It sounds good with the first half, but when you put it together with the second half of the statement, you begin to realize the 'system' isn't that capable (hint, no A.I. system can yet discern human intent with any meaningful accuracy).   ##This is the IMPORTANT CLAUSE: ". . . calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative."

What it means: You can say "report PlayerX" and not get punished, but if you say something like "report PlayerX for trolling/int feeding" and they're not actually trolling/int feeding, it is then considered negative and you can be punished.   ##But what if you believe PlayerX is actually int feeding, and the system thinks otherwise?

The system doesn't care what you believe or what your intentions are; if you lobby reports against a player and the system checks that player and says "nope, he's innocent", then you can get punished, even though you had good intentions and genuinely believed them to be breaking the rules.

[zombie-brand-clap]

RT4. Riot Tantram: "Riot doesn't define what is acceptable/unacceptable. It is the player base that decides that. Our systems learn from our players. Just like how players taught the system that GGEZ is pretty BM, players also taught the system that 'report xxx for int'ing' when they are not, is also negative."

This backs up my analysis above in RT3. If you call for reports on someone you think is in the wrong, but the system doesn't agree with you, you are liable to be wrongly penalized for it.

RT5. Riot Tantram: "Asking for reports is considered harassment by the community. You were harassing the jungler, asking for people to report them when they were doing nothing wrong. Having a bad game is not reportable. Asking to report someone for having a bad game, is reportable."

So report calling is harassment, and it's also just a little harassment (RK2, RK3); so a little harassment is ACCEPTABLE, except when a little harassment is paired up with a lot of harassment?

Even though according to Riot -- "real harassment" such as death threats and hate speech is much less common?

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

##Why not just make Report Calling plain and simple harassment and disallow it altogether? The reason why they won't: Because according to Riot NaKyle, "report call" harassment is a 'miniscule issue' not worth their time. But oh yea, it's very possible you could be banned for falsely report calling others even out of ignorance of the system, or by your own misguided beliefs.  

  ##Riot, you need to inform your entire player base that calling for reports serves no functional purpose and because of this fact, the pure act of calling for reports more often than not results in a negative game environment for everyone involved. It's part of your job as a company to make sure your customers have up to date and easily accessible information on how your punishment system works.

Right now, you make half-assed threads in the forums -- where only a minor percentage of the playerbase visits -- outlining "updates" to the IFS system/Player Behavioral rules, while average players continue to rampantly run around ignorant of how said systems and rules actually function.

You rely on third party sources (websites) to copy and relay your "press releases", while your support database contains extremely outdated, vague, or completely incorrect information(SA).

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

##If you want to reduce or eliminate a majority of the harassment, toxicity and help bring clarity to your community at large then:

  1. Focus on integrating your Summoner Code guidelines, Knowledge Database, and Community Relations information into the League Client itself**.

  2. Have a specific Riot staff member be dedicated only to community PR, and let this employee handle all press releases that pertain to issues of player behavior, et al. Make sure these player behavior press releases are directly added to the client first, and then to the forums second.

  3. Update your reform cards to outline the specific behavioral issues that player faces; especially if you are just issuing a chat restriction for a 'minor offense'. Hyperlink the offending words/phrases or behavior directly to the relevant Support Database article or Summoner Code article.

  4. Revamp/overhaul the Summoner Code page to reflect the latest in player behavior rules/guidelines, and add a little bit more specificity to topic. Add photos to each topic.

  5. Revamp/overhaul the Support Database articles to reflect the latest information, and make sure it is accurate information.

 

 

##On the subject of 'report weight' / 'report value'

SA. Support Article INSTANT FEEDBACK SYSTEM FAQ: "WILL MY ACCOUNT GET PUNISHED FOR BEING REPORTED WHEN I DID NOTHING WRONG? This is unlikely, as reports are only one piece of the puzzle. While they are important to bringing games to our attention the system still gauges the behavior in game before punishments are issued. Also, players who consistently make false reports against others diminishes the value of that player's report and renders them meaningless."

Incorrect/Outdated information. Directly contradicts RT6 and RT7 below.

RT6. Riot Tantram: "Reports do not lose value based upon the number of times you report players."

RT7. Riot Tantram: "As long as you are making a valid report, it counts. Your reports don't stop being factored in if they don't punish a player."

 

 

#TL;DR (In summary): While 'report calling' is always a form of harassment -- under the current position, the level of harassment from report calling is (according to Riot) not 'worthy' enough to issue penalties unless there is obvious and noticeable abuse and/or additional toxicity involved with the report calling.

I believe this stance to be unacceptable and dangerous to the community, because of how the IFS system interprets those reports. Instead of making 'report calling' conditionally punishable (i.e. it's OK to do it unless you also do 'xx'); report calling should fall until the category of always receiving a penalty. Riot also needs to make everyone aware that report calling serves no functional purpose within the system -- you only need one report in order to flag someone.

By adhering to the previously believed standard of "report calling = punishable", it will: A) remove any incentives some may have to try abuse the system without being caught; B) decrease the chances of some being unjustly punished from (unintentionally) falsely reporting innocent players; C) reduce/stop innocent players from being harassed; D) bring everyone onto the same 'page' concerning report calling and remove all doubts and confusion as to "when is report calling acceptable", because it will always be unacceptable.

 

 

##Congrats if you made it all the way to the end (and read all of it)! You get my deepest appreciation and thanks for taking the time to read these concerns that I, and many others (perhaps even yourself) have.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

41 Comments

Sarutobi3 votes

Honestly this whole thing is just head-aching. It should either be ok, or not. Not something in between. Because how people are going to abuse the system. It makes no sense when they contradict every word they are saying. its just annoying, and to an extent very unprofessional!

Chønklord2 votes

Tell me about it. Even now I just finished re-wording / adding new information to this post. I outlined (further down the post) how Riot can clear this up and also what they can do to help reduce harassment/toxicity and stop this confusion to begin with.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

They are not contradicting. You just read more carefully, what they say and what they don't say, just your interpretations/clonclusions are contradicting.

I think the important question that RIot did not answer yet (at least i didn't see an answer) is this:

Is report calling toxic per se, because it always invites other players to harass the "suspect", no matter if the report would be justified or not?

Chønklord1 votes

They are not contradicting. You just read more carefully, what they say and what they don't say, just your interpretations/clonclusions are contradicting.

Show me where my conclusions are contradicting, and Riot is not self-contradicting/being unclear.

I've thoroughly laid out my analysis and interpretation of their statements directly; adhering to a logical interpretation of their words with as much objective non-bias as I can.

Show me I am wrong.

I think the important question that RIot did not answer yet (at least i didn't see an answer) is this:

Is report calling toxic per se, because it always invites other players to harass the "suspect", no matter if the report would be justified or not?

@Mars Ragnarok put it very succinctly:

Intent is not as important as effect. If you are harassing someone your behavior is unacceptable, whether you realize it or not.

The result of report calling is always toxic/harassment, regardless of the intent.

The problem is, from Riot's perspective, report calling alone is not 'that bad' and is not punishable; report calling, from Riot's perspective, has to be either be used intentionall as or associated with additional forms of harassment/toxicity to be considered true harassment and therefore, be punishable.

ModUlanopo4 votes

It's pretty simple, actually. The only time it isn't toxic is when you're making a clear and obvious joke. "Report Ahri for no skin", for example.

Pretty much every other time, if you are reported for it, the IFS will detect it as toxicity, it will be added to your record and may trigger a punishment.

This is exactly the same as if I call someone a "useless ^&%$stick" and I get reported for it. If I'm not being routinely toxic, it counts but won't catch me a ban.

Chønklord1 votes

Pretty much every other time, if you are reported for it, the IFS will detect it as toxicity

Except that's not what Riot says.

Report calling in and of itself is not punishable unless there is other verbal abuse/harassment/toxicity associated with the report calling (or it is used intentionally to harass);

Which is contrary to what you are saying, and what everyone else is saying:

Report calling in and of itself is harassment; regardless of intent, the effect of it is harassment/toxic and should always be punished (minus the obvious joking aspect).

ModUlanopo3 votes

I know you desperately want for your interpretation of Riot NaKyle's post to be true, but Riot Tantram explained it the next day:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1NGnychF,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T21:04:59.627+0000)

That post can be a little confusing.

The post was made to address confusion players had, thinking that asking for reports was akin to hate speech / zero tolerance and directly resulted in a ban. This is not true. But, asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment. A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty. But calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative.

Riot doesn't define what is acceptable/unacceptable. It is the player base that decides that. Our systems learn from our players. Just like how players taught the system that GGEZ is pretty BM, players also taught the system that 'report xxx for int'ing' when they are not, is also negative.

I admit that the recent post was rather confusing.

TLDR: report begging does not cause an escalated permanent ban like some other types of speech, but it is still negative behavior and can still contribute to a ban.

Chønklord1 votes

I don't want anything to be desperately true; belittling my viewpoint by reducing it to such petty desires just makes you look weak.

And I already specifically quoted and interpreted Riot Tantram's comment (the one you're copy-pasta here); if you bother to read the entirety of the original post, you'd see that to be the case.

You're not inherently disagreeing with anything I've stated, either.

We already know Riot punishes "report calling" some of the time; the issue lies in who is being punished and why the system is faulty due to our understanding of Tantram's words on how the system processes report calling.

ModUlanopo4 votes

Yes, you desperately want the "always should be punished" aspect to be true. It's a common thread in your posts.

I agree that Riot's messaging is often confusing, but I don't agree with your Manichean view of how punishment should work. The IFS is intended to be reflective of the community, not some rigid, simplified rule set.

Chønklord1 votes

Except Riot does have rigid, simplistic rule sets.

  1. Don't use hate speech
  2. Don't verbally abuse others
  3. Don't harass others via in-game (feeding/trolling/etc) or in chat (verbally abuse, grief, toxicity)
  4. Follow the Summoner's Code

Report calling should always fall under "toxicity/griefing" and therefore always be a form of harassment, under the current IFS system's functionality of only needing one report.

If we were back in the old days where "more reports = more report weight", then sure, report calling would be a thing. We are not though, because that system almost certainly guaranteed it would be abused -- and it was.

Here's what should happen:

  • Riot clarifies their position and labels "report calling", in no uncertain terms, as harassment regardless of intent (because you only need 1 report, therefore the act itself of report calling always results in something negative for a player/game)

  • Riot states this clarity of position to the entire community through their Client, and forums, and website, and Summoner Code, and Support Database.

Once these two things have occurred, the community will begin to understand the following:

  1. Report calling is a 'negative' thing, and will most likely result in a penalty for using it (dis-incentive to report call others).
  2. Innocent players that are report called will understand their accounts are not in jeopardy of being punished due to the (currently) false idea of 'more reports = more possibility of punishment'.
  3. Actual toxic players using report calling on purpose as harassment will be punished -- and they will not have any means of circumventing the IFS with "subtle report calling' abuse (as they can now).
  4. Report calling is unnecessary because you will only need the one report to flag someone (less unintentional false reports).
  5. Uninformed players who report call others falsely (assuming guilt) but with good intentions , are not liable to be unjustly punished themselves.

It's akin to someone going to a doctor for (very obviously) infected, bleeding gashes all over their body;

The doctor (Riot) says "no worries, it's only a flesh wound, it'll heal up! Here's some bandaids (their 'clarity post'). But oh my, we should really take a look at that one deep cut on your knee! (focus on hate speech or 'real' harassment)".

The former is subtle yet systemic, long-term, potentionally deadly wound; the latter is a more obvious, immediate 'threat', but more easily healed, and is already being given 'treatment'.

Meanwhile you have a bunch of passerby's (the community) standing around giving their own criticism and views on the patient's illness and the efficacy of the Doctor.

And, even though the Doctor agrees with the majority saying that the first, systemic issue should be the one focused on and dealt with; they decide instead to give priority to the more "obvious" issue even though they've already given large amounts of focus, treated the patient for it previously and stated that it's not a usual occurrence. Whereas, the system issue (report calling) is more subtle but harder to deal with, so they give it a '6' instead and just 'let it sort itself out'".

ModUlanopo2 votes

Report calling should always fall under "toxicity/griefing" and therefore always be a form of harassment, under the current IFS system's functionality of only needing one report.

That's the way it currently stands, with notable, rare exceptions like jokingly asking for reports on yourself. A report for report begging always results in a review which, like every other review, may or may not result in a punishment.

Unless you're suggesting that any level of harassment should result in punishment, regardless of frequency or scope? That seems... draconian.

Chønklord1 votes

**Report calling should always fall under "toxicity/griefing" and therefore always be a form of harassment, under the current IFS system's functionality of only needing one report. **

That's the way it currently stands, with notable, rare exceptions like jokingly asking for reports on yourself.

Not quite; according to Riot NaKyle and Riot Tantram's posts. I've highlighted bold/italicized the really important lines.

Riot NaKyle: "[. . .] whether or not we dish out penalties to players who ask for reports. Just to be super clear, we don't. If a player used asking for reports as a leaping off point for actual harassment, that's when we'd blow the whistle."

and

Riot NaKyle: You're playing adc (in 2017), and everything's going fine. But then your jungler blows a gank mid and your midlaner goes off the deep end. They pop off with "Report troll jungler" in all chat and other, worse bullshit. Even if the other team reported that jungler, the jungler wouldn't get hit with a penalty because they didn't actually do anything wrong. However, if the jungler reports the midlaner, they're_** likely to get hit with a penalty depending on just how much they tilted and their game-over-game history with that type of talk**_.

Riot Tantram's 'clarifying translation' of that example/post:

The post was made to address confusion players had, thinking that asking for reports was akin to hate speech / zero tolerance and directly resulted in a ban. This is not true. But, asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment. A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty. But calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative.

Translation: Report calling is not insta permaban like hate speech, but it is punishable when used to intentionally harass others. Report calling in itself, is not punishable.

And I assert that the IFS cannot, to any acceptable degree, determine 'human intent' when issuing penalties. Re-read the relevant area of my OP again where I explain why it can't, and why this position by Riot is dangerous and unacceptable.

A report for report begging always results in a review which, like every other review, may or may not result in a punishment.

Exactly, it is not always punished, it is only punished when the IFS decides it is being used intentionally i.e. Only if it is used intentionally as a form of harassment or with additional current/prior toxicity.

##So perhaps I could have made my own statement clearer:

While 'report calling' is always considered a form of harassment -- under the current position, the level of harassment from report calling is, according to Riot, not worthy enough of penalties unless there is obvious and noticeable abuse and/or additional toxicity involved with the report calling. And I believe this stance to be unacceptable and dangerous to the community.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Exactly, it is not always punished, it is only punished when the IFS decides it is being used intentionally i.e. Only if it is used intentionally as a form of harassment or with additional current/prior toxicity.

You're missing the point. It's not that the IFS considers some forms of report begging to be toxic. It considers them all to be toxic with the notable exception of self-reference.

Where the confusion comes in is that the impact of report begging makes it like many other forms of harassment: the IFS considers it in the context of my account history, recent behavior and other factors. I can tell someone to "uninstall for n00b" and not get punished.

What Riot NaKyle was trying to explain - very clumsily - is that report begging is not in the category of automatic, escalated bans the way other offenses are. Yes, it's toxic and you shouldn't do it, but you don't have to fear repercussions unless the surrounding circumstances dictate otherwise.

Chønklord1 votes

It's not that the IFS considers some forms of report begging to be toxic. It considers them all to be toxic with the notable exception of self-reference.

That's your interpretation of what was said by Tantram & NaKyle, without any clarity from Riot to support your interpretation, other than your own self-validation.

Need I remind you of comments you made to Riot, without receiving a response:

That's an interesting statement. Death threats generally trigger an immediate, escalated response from the IFS, but they're also fairly rare - at least in my experience. The same goes for racial/ethnic/sexist slurs. They're much less common from what I used to see back in the day.

Report begging is less toxic, but it's also much more commonplace, meaning that more people are affected by it. Given the majority of toxicity comes from people who are not routinely toxic, but are having a bad day, is it really wise to increase the number of potential triggers?

Wow good questions you made! So stuff at "level 10 toxic" is less common, but low level 6 toxic (report calling) is more common. Riot's answer: "eh, just make the 'less toxic' stuff not punishable unless they make it obvious harassment or include serious harassment as well" -- even though we've established/agreed that report calling is a systemic, long term "subtle form" of toxicity which plagues the community at a deeper level.

I wonder where Riot answered you about it "being really wise to increase the number of potential triggers?" Oh right, they never did. You self-validated your own interpretation in the next paragraph.

I think the point here should be that report begging won't rocket you to a permaban, but that doesn't make it okay and asking for reports can get you into trouble.

Except... although you won't rocket to a permaban, report calling by itself is allowable and permitted, on a conditional basis according to Riot:

Riot Tantram: [. . .] asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment. A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty. But calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative.

Key phrase: "asking for reportsCAN BE". It's not "asking for reports always is"; etc.

One the one side, you have Riot NaKyle -- clumsily as you said, but also vague and subjectively -- state: asking for reports "is bad, but not that bad", and it is "like a level 6" when compared to everything else.

On the other side, you have Riot Tantram stating (clarifying NaKyle) that asking for reports "CAN BE a way of harassing players", if it is used as harassment -- e.g. calling someone int feeder/troll when they are innocent of such. Then the IFS will 'determine', based on the history/etc of the player being reported, if the report call is true or false; and if it is false, then it will consider the report call "level 6 harassment" and possible issue a ban, or a chat restrict, or just flag the player's account for future reference.

So yes while you and I agree "report calling" is always a form of harassment and is toxic, we disagree on the interpretation of Riot Tantram/NaKyle.

I submit that, according to Riot Tantram's words -- his clarity post of Riot NaKyle's shitty attempts to explain things -- The IFS does not always flag 'report calling' as toxicity/negative behavior unless there is are other forms of toxicity alongside it, or perhaps if done repeatedly over the span of many games (this is unclear).

deathgod53 votes

This way more clear on what you meant for me, I also am curious to the answer.

however Instead of pseudo code I prefer the activity diagram feel free to use these(or don't if you don't like them)

http://imgur.com/a/qM4wL

http://imgur.com/a/YNO1L

Chønklord1 votes

#YES THIS, SO MUCH WIN.

Very nice!!!! Is it ok if I add it to the main post?

deathgod51 votes

sure thing that is what they are for

ModUlanopo3 votes

Report weight went away when the IFS was installed. We just weren't told until recently.

Chønklord1 votes

Report weight was never in question or part of the argument of this post.

ModUlanopo2 votes

On the subject of 'report weight' / 'report value'

Chønklord1 votes

part of the argument, being "report calling".

I included report weight and report value quotes from Riot Tantram because it specifically negates the (false/outdated) information I quoted from their Support Article.

Please read. Did you read the post in its entirety?

ModUlanopo2 votes

Yep. Sure did.

Focus on integrating your Summoner Code guidelines, Knowledge Database, and Community Relations information into the League Client itself**.

Probably not going to happen. The software team is on other projects and Keyru is looking to improve the boards.

Have a specific Riot staff member be dedicated only to community PR, and let this employee handle all press releases that pertain to issues of player behavior, et al.

That would be Riot Tantram, at least for now. I know there was a Community Specialist post up on Riot's hiring page, but I don't think it was ever filled. A couple people I know applied, but didn't get it, obviously.

Make sure these player behavior press releases are directly added to the client first, and then to the forums second.

Probably not going to happen, for the reason mentioned above. It's far more likely it will be put as an alert on your Boards Profile, which I don't think satisfies you.

Update your reform cards to outline the specific behavioral issues that player faces; especially if you are just issuing a chat restriction for a 'minor offense'. Hyperlink the offending words/phrases or behavior directly to the relevant Support Database article or Summoner Code article.

Definitely not going to happen, in part because the PB&M board is for peer commentary on just that, among other things. For another, Riot is never going to do line-by-line because that would lead to people arguing that anything not explicitly delineated is not officially toxic.

Revamp/overhaul the Summoner Code page to reflect the latest in player behavior rules/guidelines, and add a little bit more specificity to topic. Add photos to each topic.

They're working on this, but they're never going to have that level of specificity.

Revamp/overhaul the Support Database articles to reflect the latest information, and make sure it is accurate information.

Working on that too.

Chønklord1 votes

They're working on this, but they're never going to have that level of specificity.

I said a little more specificity, not that they have to be extremely specific. Obviously its their intent to have the Summoner's Code be more open-ended and let the community define what is/is not tolerable under the umbrella of the summoner's code, which to some degree works out 'ok'. It wouldn't hurt them to be slightly more precise in some areas of the SC, though. Example photos -- like the old ones they have on the Knowledge Articles about 'what is reportable', also could help.

I.e. they could give examples of things the community has deemed punishable/not tolerable, and include it into a subjection of the SC or whatever. The point being, the SC web page needs revamping. Not the whole SC itself per se.  

Definitely not going to happen, in part because the PB&M board is for peer commentary on just that, among other things. For another, Riot is never going to do line-by-line because that would lead to people arguing that anything not explicitly delineated is not officially toxic.

The reform card issue; again, riot already posts copies of the last 3 (if applicable) chat logs that constitute punishable toxicity to the player. They have a means to bring additional clarity and comprehension by hyperlinking those things within said chat logs that were part of what brought about the punishment to begin with. If someone says hate speech stuff for example, they could hyperlink the offending hate speech words/phrases to the relevant sub-article on the Summoner's Code, which talks about how to communicate with others, etc.  

Probably not going to happen, for the reason mentioned above. It's far more likely it will be put as an alert on your Boards Profile, which I don't think satisfies you.

It's not a matter of whether 'board alerts' satisfies [me] or not -- it's a matter of visibility to the general public. It's already established that the players who frequent the boards here in any capacity, are just a minority group when compared to the entire community at large. Adding a 'board alert' or revamping the boards and using the boards as the primary go-to place to post updates on Player Behavior issues, etc, is not the ideal solution to getting your message out to as many players as possible.   Hence why there is currently so much confusion in-game about things like "report calling" and the like. From only my own gameplay experience, there is always at least one person in every one of my games that is under the assumption "more reports = more chance of punishment", for example. Riot can alleviate these confusions by creating a Support portal within the client itself. They have plenty of space under HOME, next to Overview / News / Patch Notes / . . .

Considering the new client is dynamically coded as opposed to the older, crappier client -- they don't even need to hardcode the information; simply grab the relevant stuff dynamically from the Support database, forums, summoner code page, etc. It can all be updated in one location and automatically synchronized within the client.

o Maui o2 votes

Intent is not as important as effect. If you are harassing someone your behavior is unacceptable, whether you realize it or not. Part of the purpose of the tiered punishment system is to help players realize that their behavior isn't okay.

Chønklord1 votes

Exactly, and according to how we read Riot's words, they are not punishing players for the effect, only the intent. But it's impossible for the system to understand intent, as far as we understand it.

Riot could clear it up and say **Our A.I. is so smart, it understands human intent and knows when you are innocently report calling others or purposefully report calling others.

My take on that is, it's not possible, and therefore, by logical deduction -- and reading between the lines of Riot Tantram's words on report call punishment -- innocent players are liable to be punished for report calling if the system finds their report calls to be false.

o Maui o1 votes

I parsed it the other way: that their algorithm identifies situations in which report begging crosses the line into genuine harassment.

Chønklord1 votes

Hence why the there is confusion within the community now. You read it this way, I read it the other way. Previously, most (who were informed on what was said before by Riot Tantram), were under the impression all forms of report calling were punishable; it was straightforward. Now, it's not so straightforward, due to how Riot NaKyle and Tantram and others have stated differing perceptions/opinions and contradictory or vague answers to one another.

ModPeriscope1 votes

So, what you're saying:

  • Do/should players making reports on innocent players be punished?
  • Do/should players calling for reports falsely/intentionally on innocent players be punished?
  • How can the system differentiate between intentionally harassing report calling?
  • Will players who don't know report calling is punishable be punished?
  • You've got ways to fix this

Edit: You feel Riot should better inform their player base.

Chønklord1 votes

Pretty much.

ISSUE/ARGUMENT: Report calling should always be considered harassment which is punishable (with ONE except; obvious jokes)

Riot's Answer: From our logical interpretation of Riot's words, report calling is only harassment when used intentionally to harass, or when supplemented with other forms of harassment/verbal abuse.

  • Because of Riot's stance above, innocent players report calling others with good intentions are still liable to be punished, because the system does not differentiate/understand "player intent",
OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4V464Mj8,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-04-01T21:33:32.116+0000)

  • Because of Riot's stance above, innocent players report calling others with good intentions are still liable to be punished, because the system does not differentiate/understand "player intent",

The problem with that is once a player makes an open statement in chat of "Report Player X" they stop being completely innocent. They are knowingly making an inflammatory statement, often intended to either a. threaten, bully or otherwise scare Player X into doing something rather than risk the report, b. piss Player X off in return, or c. convince other players to join with them in exacting revenge against Player X. And if the player has done any of those things, they are no longer the innocent victim of Player X, and none of those are good intentions. They are just the other person in chat who happens to be arguing WITH Player X.

Chønklord1 votes

Not at all. There are many players whom genuinely believe they're 'doing the right thing' by calling for reports in chat.

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

Unfortunately, people genuinely believe things all the time that are not necessarily correct. It's been confirmed by Riot repeatedly that there is no reason to ask for reports as only one is needed to flag the game for review, and you are certainly right in your earlier posts that it would help for this to be made more common knowledge.

Chønklord1 votes

Exactly, it's one of the major points in this post. What happens to those players that are not correct (according to the IFS system), but inherently believe they are correct? They are in my opinion, unjustly liable to be penalized for report calling.

ModPeriscope1 votes
  • Do/should players making reports on innocent players be punished?
    • No. Either the reported player is punished for doing something wrong, or he wasn't punished. I don't see any reason for punishing a player for making a report.
  • Do/should players calling for reports falsely/intentionally on innocent players be punished?
    • Yes. And I feel Riot made the statement vague because they don't want to dictate too much how players interact in this game. That's our job, as players. Report calling is harassing but as Riot Tantram stated,

"A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty."

                      A single report. That leaves open that if you're consistently report calling (harassing) you could be punished.
  • How can the system differentiate between intentionally harassing report calling?
    • Through either the rest of your chat in game or your history of report calling.
  • Will players who don't know report calling is punishable be punished?
  • More than likely, they will be punished. If a player consistently report calls, and enough players report this, then that player should be punished.
  • You feel Riot should better inform their player base.
    • I don't think Riot wants to dictate how we interact in game. That being said, if this rated 6/10 on the 0-10 scale (Happy thoughts to murder death kill), then I'd have to say they have other things that should be addressed. If offending players are only uttering this, the IFS should be sufficient. For things like hate speech, you see much more awareness of that on the boards due to how bad it is (10/10 on the Happy to MDK scale). On the other hand, if you are harassed in game, there's no reason to act toxic back, even if you've been report called by another player.
ModPeriscope1 votes

TLDR: This problem will fix itself.

https://morbotron.com/gif/S08E04/692275/698114.gif?b64lines=IEEgcHJvYmxlbSB0aGF0IHNvbHZlcwogaXRzZWxmPyBUaGF0IHNvdW5kcyBsaWtlCiBhIGpvYiBmb3IgbWUsIEJlbmRlci4=

Chønklord1 votes

Problems don't fix themselves, they just fade into obscurity.

Chønklord1 votes

{quoted}

  • Do/should players making reports on innocent players be punished?
    • No. Either the reported player is punished for doing something wrong, or he wasn't punished. I don't see any reason for punishing a player for making a report.

You're contradicting yourself in this statement with the one you make below. Players who purposefully report call against innocent players in order to bully them (harassment), should be/is punishable.

  • Do/should players calling for reports falsely/intentionally on innocent players be punished?
    • Yes. And I feel Riot made the statement vague because they don't want to dictate too much how players interact in this game. That's our job, as players. Report calling is harassing but as Riot Tantram stated,

This is also vague/contradictory. So players who falsely report call on others should be punished, even if they unintentionally do it? Or only if they're doing it on purpose?

A single report. That leaves open that if you're consistently report calling (harassing) you could be punished.

Exactly, it's too 'open'. As per my argument; what if you're unintentionally falsely reporting an innocent player (under the mistaken belief they're guilty) -- ok sure maybe if you do it once it's OK; but more than that? So doing it two times escalates to a punishment? It's absurdly too vague and open ended of an 'answer'.

  • How can the system differentiate between intentionally harassing report calling?
    • Through either the rest of your chat in game or your history of report calling.

This only accounts for obvious signs of verbal abuse / toxicity in the chat; If the person calling for reports says nothing else other than 'report xx for yy' or some amalgam thereof, the system will not be able to determine 'intent' without anything negative/toxic in chat to go on. Remember, just saying 'report xx' is not in itself, noticed by the system as a negative.

  • Will players who don't know report calling is punishable be punished?
  • More than likely, they will be punished. If a player consistently report calls, and enough players report this, then that player should be punished.

Then you are having innocent, unaware players punished just because Riot hasn't made it clear enough on a broad enough spectrum that _calling for reports is likely to get you punished because you only need one report. How can anyone be OK with players being unfairly penalized for Riot's own lack of clarity?

  • You feel Riot should better inform their player base.
    • I don't think Riot wants to dictate how we interact in game.

Except they already do; in cases of hate speech, verbal abuse, trolling, griefing, harassment, etc. There's a whole slew of things Riot dictates how you are allowed or not allowed to interact. Report calling should fall under the category of "punishable harassment" as a dis-incentive to those who would abuse report calling; and they should clarify the report system to the entire community as a whole in no uncertain terms: you only need one report to work. Then players will understand a couple of things:

  1. "one report is all it takes",
  2. "asking for more than one report on someone is toxic and liable to get you punished",
  3. "players who report call on me does not mean my account is in jeopardy of being punished for 'overwhelming reports', and I am free to counter-report them for harassment".

That being said, if this rated 6/10 on the 0-10 scale (Happy thoughts to murder death kill), then I'd have to say they have other things that should be addressed. If offending players are only uttering this, the IFS should be sufficient. For things like hate speech, you see much more awareness of that on the boards due to how bad it is (10/10 on the Happy to MDK scale). On the other hand, if you are harassed in game, there's no reason to act toxic back, even if you've been report called by another player.

Riot is already addressing hate speech, et al. They've stated before that this large level of toxicity (level 10), is very uncommon. So why are they putting more attention and manpower into something so rare, while ignoring/disregarding "report calling" (level 6), which is far more prevalent and pervasive throughout all games and modes in League?

ModPeriscope1 votes

One of the things that makes your post confusing is how difficult it is to differentiate between the two terms I used. I say "report calling" when someone chats in game to report other players. "making/filing a report" is the act of sending a report to the IFS in the post-game lobby.

If the person calling for reports says nothing else other than 'report xx for yy'

If that's the only thing negative that they say in one game, then they should not be punished. But if they're saying this, and only this, in multiple games AND are reported for it, then they should be punished by the system. This isn't unfair if this act is the only thing they do that's negative. That would likely mean a chat restriction.

Chønklord1 votes

One of the things that makes your post confusing is how difficult it is to differentiate between the two terms I used. I say "report calling" when someone chats in game to report other players. "making/filing a report" is the act of sending a report to the IFS in the post-game lobby.

The post refers to "report calling", therefore everything discussed about the act of reporting is from the perspective of "report calling".

If that's the only thing negative that they say in one game, then they should not be punished. But if they're saying this, and only this, in multiple games AND are reported for it, then they should be punished by the system. This isn't unfair if this act is the only thing they do that's negative. That would likely mean a chat restriction.

Well Riot doesn't agree with you. Apparently asking for reports is conditionally given penalties/punished.

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