NA mentality on "FF" and Open mid. (sorry for my english)

NChatNeed2Reform·May 9, 2018·10 votes·5,326 views

Why RIOT gives the impression to give up a game in NA is bad but in Korea it's normal. Loosing a game when the game is based on gold = stats, it's normal, the game does not teach you nothing when it's 1/18 to 13 min, I think RIOT must make a video to show that "FF" is not a bad thing, people who say that victory is possible, they are right, nothing is impossible, but the error must be made by the opposing team more than once and this variable is not determined by your team if you have 0 control over it.

I'm not saying that the 12/20 game is lost and people are right too open in the middle but when people open up in the middle, it's because they know how the game works and know that a game is lost. People who believe in "never surrender" are egocentric people who are bad losers and can not accept defeat, most of the time they do not want "FF" because they want to hurt the team of an inaccessible game. Most of the time, it's their fault.

I think that "RIOT" has created a childish and innocent community with their "never surrender"

just my thought [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

38 Comments

Der LindwurmMay 9, 20188 votes

I really hate it when people want to surrender. Sometimes I'll vote yes anyway, usually if there's an AFK, but I am not happy about it when I do.

In my experience, people are far too quick to surrender, and choose to surrender rather than growing from facing difficulty. They go into games thinking they're the best player on their team, thinking they're so good that all they should have to do is the same thing they always do. And, if that fails, they want to just start it over and try again. They can't accept that it's not always going to be all about them and that part of being a good player is learning to adapt and play from behind.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Der Lindwurm,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4HJf09ik,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-09T04:30:32.470+0000)

I really hate it when people want to surrender. Sometimes I'll vote yes anyway, usually if there's an AFK, but I am not happy about it when I do.

In my experience, people are far too quick to surrender, and choose to surrender rather than growing from facing difficulty. They go into games thinking they're the best player on their team, thinking they're so good that all they should have to do is the same thing they always do. And, if that fails, they want to just start it over and try again. They can't accept that it's not always going to be all about them and that part of being a good player is learning to adapt and play from behind.

I think you need to put context around it, exemple : I played a game where my allies did not want to surrender when we had + 10k gold difference at 12 minute. This game was not winnable.

But a game with +10K gold difference at 35 minute is completly winnable because of champion full build who is stopping the snowball.

Imo [slayer-jinx-wink]

TormentulaMay 9, 20185 votes

I've won games where it was just my nexus and 0 towers left, and the enemy had all theirs. I've also lost games because my team throws or gets too cocky being 20-0.

I usually don't ff unless the team starts raging or quits because I like to see what can happen if we just get a 6 item adc and potentially win a baron contest.

Call me what you will but even if I win only 1/20 of those "never surrender" mentallity games, that's still a win over nothing that adds up by the end of the season. I just don't see a reason to quit when anything is possible in solo queue, if its a true loss outcome, then its a loss outcome.. if its a win, well then its a good thing I said no. Never know which games those are until you let them happen.

In norms well I guess I'm less willing to stall and just go next since I don't gain anything by winning and I don't lose anything by giving up.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I've won games where it was just my nexus and 0 towers left, and the enemy had all theirs. I've also lost games because my team throws or gets too cocky being 20-0.

I usually don't ff unless the team starts raging or quits because I like to see what can happen if we just get a 6 item adc and potentially win a baron contest.

its close to imposible to get 6 item adc if they have 10k gold difference at 13 min unless your Bronze 5

TormentulaMay 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

unless if your Bronze 5

Well I got to where I am from bronze 5 at one point so,

Over exaggeration?

NyarlathοtepMay 9, 2018

I've won games where it was just my nexus and 0 towers left, and the enemy had all theirs

Good for you. Now, how many chances are doing again, and again and again? Here let me tell you. Very low (unless you are premade and know each other well). If the enemy has a big ass lead (that requires THEM to make constant mistakes i order for you to truly have a chance to win) then it might be a good idea to surr. Especially at higher tiers. Besides by surrendering you save yourself from getting tilted.

Kei143May 9, 20184 votes

Just to let you know, it's not Riot that decides that it's not acceptable, its the community.

Other than the zero tolerance words, Riot has nothing to do with what is punishable.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

RIOT have make a video on "never surrender" back then. no ?

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20184 votes

Why does the "FF" rate in Korea is higher and people are better ? Why does NA team take Korean player into there team but Korean team dont take NA ?

Because we are fragile NA player who cant accept loosing and we playing with childish community

[zombie-brand-clap]

TormentulaMay 9, 20184 votes

You've never been to korea lol

They are way more toxic then NA and EU in solo queue. The reason they don't take NA players is because korea has better investments in coaching and typically korean teams can communicate better with Korean players then English exclusive speaking NA players.

Faker can't speak english, so what good is playing with meteos as a jungler for SKT?

A big factor for why korean's even open mid is due to internet limitations (either at home because lets be honest, households are often more strict) and they lack the time to play out 40 minute games (either because they're in more common PC arcades or they have other schedules). So basically they just pick the strongest early game junglers and try to force a tilt or make the game look weighted in one teams favor so the other gets a "I don't have time for this" and all agree to open.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You've never been to korea lol

They are way more toxic then NA and EU in solo queue. The reason they don't take NA players is because korea has better investments in coaching and typically korean teams can communicate better with Korean players then English exclusive speaking NA players.

Faker can't speak english, so what good is playing with meteos as a jungler for SKT?

A big factor for why korean's even open mid is due to internet limitations (either at home because lets be honest, households are often more strict) and they lack the time to play out 40 minute games (either because they're in more common PC arcades or they have other schedules). So basically they just pick the strongest early game junglers and try to force a tilt or make the game look weighted in one teams favor so the other gets a "I don't have time for this" and all agree to open.

for your first argument, when a korean come in NA, he dosnt undestand english, right ? and these day, korea have one of the best internet in the world and it accessible from evrywhere and is one of the less expensive so idk why you saying they have limitation ?

Btw they are not toxic, they are just blaming on what their teammates doing wrong, it's why they have a more competitive solo Q and people are learning faster and better.

NocturnalSheildMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why does the "FF" rate in Korea is higher and people are better ? Why does NA team take Korean player into there team but Korean team dont take NA ?

Because we are fragile NA player who cant accept loosing and we playing with childish community

[zombie-brand-clap]

Because in america people parents arent kidnapped if players dont play well.

Video games are also not a national sport.

Your comparing apple to oranges. The culture is COMPLETELY different.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because in america people parents arent kidnapped if players dont play well.

Video games are also not a national sport.

Your comparing apple to oranges. The culture is COMPLETELY different.

OFC

ChermorgMay 9, 20184 votes

Maybe in Korea, they’re all trying to gain as much LP as possible rapidly because they all think they can be pro. I’m not saying this is the case, but statistically speaking, someone from the KR region has a lot more competition (and honestly, probably a higher chance) of playing pro League than does some random player from NA/EU/OCE/etc. They surrender at 15/20 not because they think they can’t win the game, but because it’s not efficient.

Well, I’m not sure about you, but I don’t play League to be “efficient”. I play League to have fun - win or lose. And if I’m having fun, enjoying myself, and don’t want to sit through another queue, I’m not going to vote to surrender, and I shouldn’t be forced to just because my teammates think “oh it’s unwinnable”.

EndlessSorcererMay 9, 20186 votes

AFAIK, playing from internet cafes are rather common over in Korea.

When you are paying for time, surrendering when you believe the game is lost would make far more sense.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

AFAIK, playing from internet cafes are rather common over in Korea.

When you are paying for time, surrendering when you believe the game is lost would make far more sense.

For information, Internet cafe cost less money then paying your connection and pc+uprgrade. We wasting more money in NA then in Korea.

BTW some people time are precious, it depends how much free time you have but im my case, I hate wasting my times.

CampingstoveMay 10, 20181 votes

I agree, time is precious which is why we all hate afkers and toxic players/feeders. But the key to keep in mind your time is no more valuable than the other 9 people in the game's time either.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe in Korea, they’re all trying to gain as much LP as possible rapidly because they all think they can be pro. I’m not saying this is the case, but statistically speaking, someone from the KR region has a lot more competition (and honestly, probably a higher chance) of playing pro League than does some random player from NA/EU/OCE/etc. They surrender at 15/20 not because they think they can’t win the game, but because it’s not efficient.

Well, I’m not sure about you, but I don’t play League to be “efficient”. I play League to have fun - win or lose. And if I’m having fun, enjoying myself, and don’t want to sit through another queue, I’m not going to vote to surrender, and I shouldn’t be forced to just because my teammates think “oh it’s unwinnable”.

Yes but this mindset make people who tryhard upset with you, you make then play a game who they dont want to and most of the time, it finish in insults because people are tilted

ChermorgMay 9, 20183 votes

If they don't want to play a full game of League, they're free to find another MOBA or game to play.

AidanWRMay 9, 20183 votes

I'm an avid believer of letting a game play out completely. There are very few games that are absolutely unwinnable. I have even been the one feeding, but still refused to surrender. I had a game a year ago where I started as 1/4/1 with 28 cs in 16 minutes, the score was only 9/9, but they had three turrets to minimal damage to turrets, and I fed Panth top. By 32 minutes, they had every turret except for mid inhibitor and both our top and bottom inhibitors were down, but we only had first tier mid turret. We were up on kills, but they had almost every objective. At 36 minutes, they got every turret and inhib, but we won a 4v4 and bot and top inhibs came back up. 39 minutes in we got baron then elder. At 41 minutes, we had all inhibs up and started pushing mid with baron and elder. After a successful turret dive, we got an ace and they surrendered after use having an exposed nexus for 10 straight minutes, and I ended the game as 14/6/16 with 190 cs.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm an avid believer of letting a game play out completely. There are very few games that are absolutely unwinnable. I have even been the one feeding, but still refused to surrender. I had a game a year ago where I started as 1/4/1 with 28 cs in 16 minutes, the score was only 9/9, but they had three turrets to minimal damage to turrets, and I fed Panth top. By 32 minutes, they had every turret except for mid inhibitor and both our top and bottom inhibitors were down, but we only had first tier mid turret. We were up on kills, but they had almost every objective. At 36 minutes, they got every turret and inhib, but we won a 4v4 and bot and top inhibs came back up. 39 minutes in we got baron then elder. At 41 minutes, we had all inhibs up and started pushing mid with baron and elder. After a successful turret dive, we got an ace and they surrendered after use having an exposed nexus for 10 straight minutes, and I ended the game as 14/6/16 with 190 cs.

Like I was trying to say, this game dont work in this situation, your team was still making the difference and was making it able to go in late game.

AidanWRMay 9, 20181 votes

We were losing hard, I was even playing with someone that was an entire system higher than me (G3 and P3) that surrenders when he thinks the game is lost. I don't see how winning a game when losing the entire time by not surrendering is different from what you're talking about.

ValyrianBladeMay 9, 20183 votes

I've made unbelievable comebacks in the past - they happen, especially in lower elo.

The open mid mentality in Korea doesn't exist because the players actually want to give up. It exists because most players play in internet cafes where they pay by the hour to use the internet. Time is money, literally. If they have a low probability of winning, they want to move on to the next game. Their expected rate of climbing is actually higher by giving up quickly, as they get a chance to recover the LP before they run out of money.

In NA, we don't have a time restriction. Most people have way more internet usage at home than they could ever go through by playing league. You will ALWAYS have better expected LP gains by not giving up, meaning you should only really surrender in games that are a certain loss.

I've come back from 11 towers to 0, 3 inhibs down, 20 kills down, 3 barons down, 6 dragons down (when there was the 5 dragon buff) and won the game in 1h17min. It IS possible to come back from anything.

420 gramsMay 9, 20182 votes

Maybe it's more fun to some people to play out a loss than to go back to client and do nothing

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4HJf09ik,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-09T04:13:00.950+0000)

Maybe it's more fun to some people to play out a loss than to go back to client and do nothing

Why do nothing ?

Divine WindsMay 9, 20182 votes

In theory, ff ing more games = more games played overall (time saved) = more games to learn your champion. It's so much more efficient to just open or ff a game early if the gold lead is staggering.

Best Ekko NAMay 9, 20182 votes

I don't think surrendering should really be math based. There's many other reasons why someone could want to /ff a match.

Generally I do not vote to surrender to save time, I vote to surrender to save my sanity (personally). I do not care if I am 20-0 and carrying the match hard.. if the rest of my team is feeding and the game is just too stressful, I do not want to be a part of it. I'd much rather surrender or even lose and save myself from tilting hard and getting pissed off at my team, than to stay in a match just because there's some chance that it can be won.

In NA & EU regions, a good majority of players do not care about or respect other players. This is due to the teachings of democracy (not to get into government but it's mostly true) and capitalism, that anyone has a chance to be successful. It's common place for people to be greedy and walk all over each other to get what they want (in this case a win). They do not care if it is or isn't their fault, as long as someone wins the match and gives them LP. This is a big part of why surrendering is less common in these regions than somewhere like Korea. In Asian countries, respect is part of their culture. There might be some trolling and negative behavior there, but I do not think that it's the normal, and most players (even from watching Faker's stream) seem to be more reasonable to unusual picks and play styles.

At any rate, it all boils down to respect. How's that song go?

This one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZ3_obMXwU

CampingstoveMay 10, 20182 votes

My thoughts are on this are if the entire team doesn't agree to FF or 'open mid' then it's every player's responsibility to keep playing and trying. At lower elo it's not out of the question the other team gets cocky and stupid and throws the game so it becomes winnable again. At higher elo this generally isn't an issue and they are more than happy to FF and move on.

So, basically there is nothing inherently wrong with 'FF or open mid' if the entire team agrees. But if not you made a commitment and responsibility to try your best to win by queuing for that game and it seemingly being a no-win scenario doesn't negate that responsibility. In fact, someone that refuses to help when the team is still fighting should be reported for afk and punished.

Best Vi EarthMay 15, 20182 votes

its why we are so far behind korea

AthinaMay 9, 20181 votes

I don't know where Riot explicitly encourages "never surrender" mentality, and I don't see why it's a bad thing for people to have it. In fact, it sounds like Riot might be encouraging surrendering more by making the regular surrender vote start at 15 minutes, instead of 20. That being said, some people will always want to do anything they can to win, even if the situation seems hopeless, and there's nothing wrong with that.

NChatNeed2ReformMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't know where Riot explicitly encourages "never surrender" mentality, and I don't see why it's a bad thing for people to have it. In fact, it sounds like Riot might be encouraging surrendering more by making the regular surrender vote start at 15 minutes, instead of 20. That being said, some people will always want to do anything they can to win, even if the situation seems hopeless, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Yes I think its a problem, good player get over loose and see foward to improve in the next game. some people drag people into bad game with 0 fun for the 2 teams and just try to make it last.

Sometimes it's better to redo a drawing instead of fixing it. no ?

PandeonorMay 9, 20181 votes

Maybe a cultural thing.

In Master-Tier EUW in flex queue only 13,8% of the teams surrender. In Korea there are 45,8% of this games wich end with surrender. Even - admitted - we don´t know if they for example typically surrender 20 seconds before nexus would be down.

Well. The people wich surrender don´t want to play if behind. Perhaps they are unable to play if behind but I think it just makes not much fun for them or the other way it makes much more fun to stomp themselfes. Being a 10/2 Rengar wich can go where he wants and oneshot everyone is much more fun then a 2/10 Rengar wich has to hide in bushes for not dying.

That´s the main point PRO surrender. The only one, to be fair.

There are several points for never surrender. Some minor as the fact that you can play longer with your champ as the time in queue, champselect, loadingsscreen is lost time. But there are major points wich are mathematically based.

You are not interested in maths as you belong to the 10/2-Rengar group. Anyway. Maybe hard for you but you asked.

Let´s take this numbers for a short calculation as a starting point: Average match is about 30 minutes. Surrender-voting possible at 15, average surrender time we take the mid and therefore minute 23. Match would have last 7 minutes longer. Let´s assume 6 minutes from queue into match, leads to 36 minutes altogether for a whole match (6+30min). We further assume a 50% winrate and have a look on 200 matches. 100 are wins 100 are losses and half of the lost matches (=50 matches) are "Korean surrender matches". I guess we can (conservative) assume that 2 of them could have been wins. I think the real share is higher but 2 are ok for a short calculation and are good to show others.

Results:

2 more wins within 200 matches are a 1% higher winrate
If surrendered 50 matches with saved 7 minutes each are 350 minutes saved. 36minutes for a match as above assumed leads us to 10 more matches for the group of surrenders.
To make "saving time for more matches" plausible in terms of "more chances for winning" this 10 additional matches must not end 50%/50% or 5w and 5l but must compensate the 2 wins wich passed because of surrender. The winning quote must be 70%.

Conclusion: Surrender is a good option for all with winning rates of 70% and above.

You can go for 1 win out of 50 surrenders (=60% winrate needed) or 3 (80%) it will not change. It will only give a hook if you go for let´s say 1 win out of 100 surrender votings wich means 1 time within 400 matches. But that is obviousely not fact.

All others belong to the 10/2-Rengar-group. That´s all about that. They don´t know more about the game but avoid difficult and bad situations. Admitted.... 48 times 7 minutes each getting stomped is maybe not for every young mind a good thing. So I can see the point. But mathamatic is not harmless..... and don´t mind.

WoodakoodashoodaMay 9, 20181 votes

My new approach to surrendering is not to initiate one, but to play the game through.

If someone initiates the vote and 3 of my allies vote yes then I also vote yes. Otherwise, I ignore the vote and continue playing.

If more than half my team has given up then I am not going to subject myself to the experience of trying to win an ass-kicking contest as a one-legged man.

The Blue RajahMay 9, 20181 votes

Just two quick things. First, I don’t understand why you think Riot has somehow done this? They don’t encourage playing games out, and they don’t encourage surrendering. It is very much a cultural thing that has nothing to do with Riot.

Second, if you’re quick to surrender you’ll never learn how to play from behind. On the professional scene they can’t just surrender, because they have to play for that tiny chance of a turnaround. And you need practice to know how to play when you’re that far behind.

AJStarhikerMay 9, 20181 votes

Americans love underdogs and Cinderella stories. Just look at all the movies (especially sports movies) where someone overcomes massive odds. It's not egocentric, so much as an embedded cultural belief that anyone can beat the odds and win.

Otters Go RAWRMay 9, 20181 votes

America never surrenders, HO-RA KKona [draven-pose]

1RiceBowl1xMay 9, 20181 votes

I would be fine with people saying no to the surrender vote IF THEY CAN PROPOSE A POSSIBLE WIN CONDITION WITHIN REASON. most of the time the games already over to me, but sometimes someone does come up with a reasonable win condition. but mostly people just say no in hoping that they 5 man fountain dive.......