Why does Riot not have a zero-tolerance policy for toxic behaviors?

Auroramancer·Sep 22, 2016·16 votes·1,955 views

I'm curious why it takes so much for a player to be punished for their behavior.

The amount of players who talk shit in chat, flame their teammates, or intentionally set out to lose a game for their team, is astounding. You put in a report for them (and Riot says it only takes ONE report to flag a game for the behavior), and....

#nothing.

They continue to play.

Now, I get it, Riot says that "players have bad days at times", but what is the harm in giving someone with low occurrences of bad behavior, say, a 5-game chat restriction? It's not the end of the world for them by any means, and it sends the signal "We don't like what you are doing, and this is how we let you know it's not okay. Stop doing it."

It's a lot better to dish out very light and small punishments, in accordance with infrequent toxicity, than it is to wait for a LOT of toxicity to result in anything. Toxic players mock Riot for what they can get away with. Sure, they may have to do it for several weeks, but THAT IS SEVERAL WEEKS THAT INNOCENT PLAYERS HAVE TO PUT UP WITH IT.

39 Comments

Mister PunchesSep 22, 20167 votes

They do, but if one offense happens and it is reported, the most there will be for that is a message popup saying "don't do it again". Effectively, it's a slap on the wrist.

If the person continues being toxic, it'll escalate into ban tiers, which are extremely easy to bypass (read: takes no effort, people make new accounts just to bypass the ban, or they go on their smurf account to do so if they get banned).

Also, it seems the general apathy for reporting a toxic player is prevalent. A lot of people don't really report, they just game and move on. While it seems to be in good sentiment, it's also perpetuating the toxicity of the game: If a person doesn't report a toxic player, that toxic player is free to be toxic in other games.

SarutobiSep 22, 20165 votes

To some extent i can agree with Riot. They believe (especially in this type of environment) people will have bad days. Its human nature to get mad and Riot understands that! No one should ever have their account punished for one bad day/game. Let alone the fact that everyone's definition on the term Toxic is different. To some swearing isnt toxic, Others say its toxic to even recommend/help others because you should play how you want to play, not how others want you to play.

Granted some are obvious when it comes to them being toxic. But sooner or later they'll learn how to cheat the system. Its already happening to people who troll, and to some extent being toxic. but at the end of the day with toxic behavior (as well as any other punishment) it needs to be consistent. People are going to lash out once in awhile, and they shouldnt be punished just for one incident.

AuroramancerSep 22, 20163 votes

People are going to lash out once in awhile, and they shouldnt be punished just for one incident.

This kind of attitude/principle gives way for players to mock Riot and say "i won't be punished lol"

That's why I suggested a very minor punishment, like a 5-game chat restriction. Not terrible by any means, but it's Riot sending a message

SarutobiSep 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

This kind of attitude/principle gives way for players to mock Riot and say "i won't be punished lol"

That's why I suggested a very minor punishment, like a 5-game chat restriction. Not terrible by any means, but it's Riot sending a message

But people will always be like that. I mean you are just prolonging the inevitable. Also you are giving them more chances to do these things and not get a real type of punishment. I mean you want to punishment anyone who might even be the slightest toxic and thats not right. By that logic every single person in this game should get punish since im sure everyone has gotten the slightest bit toxic at one point in their time with this game! and that is wrong.

AuroramancerSep 22, 20162 votes

By that logic every single person in this game should get punish since im sure everyone has gotten the slightest bit toxic at one point in their time with this game!

That is EXACTLY why I'm saying to implement the absolute smallest tier of punishment for that. Because you know what happens when the infrequently toxic get punished?

"Whoa, I just got punished for that game...I didn't know I was being an ass in that game...okay, let's chill and not do that in the next ones"

There is no room for those same people to develop future toxic tendencies BECAUSE OF "well I got away with it that one time...Riot really doesn't seem to care".

And there's also no room for really toxic players to get away with 20-ish games of toxicity. Right from the get-go at the first game, Riot makes their point clear to them, and if the player keeps being toxic in successive games, then it should escalate. Toxic players have way too much leniency with how many games they can be toxic in.

The lack of precedence for early toxicity is what fosters infrequent but HORRIBLY toxic behavior. Someone can have a good record for say 100 games, but if they flame and rip apart teammates in 1 game, it needs to be addressed.

SarutobiSep 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That is EXACTLY why I'm saying to implement the absolute smallest tier of punishment for that. Because you know what happens when the infrequently toxic get punished?

"Whoa, I just got punished for that game...I didn't know I was being an ass in that game...okay, let's chill and not do that in the next ones"

There is no room for those same people to develop future toxic tendencies BECAUSE OF "well I got away with it that one time...Riot really doesn't seem to care".

And there's also no room for really toxic players to get away with 20-ish games of toxicity. Right from the get-go at the first game, Riot makes their point clear to them, and if the player keeps being toxic in successive games, then it should escalate. Toxic players have way too much leniency with how many games they can be toxic in.

The lack of precedence for early toxicity is what fosters infrequent but HORRIBLY toxic behavior. Someone can have a good record for say 100 games, but if they flame and rip apart teammates in 1 game, it needs to be addressed.

Except the fact that (at least from what I remember) they do give you warning about your behavior, or at the very least tell you that you've been reported frequently. I'm not quite sure if they still do this,but I would assume so.

But still people know when they are toxic. And I don't believe they should be punished even the smallest amount if it's only rare that they are toxic.

When you get punished you are basically on the "list" of people who are rule breaking. So you are basically asking for every single person to get even the smallest punishment when it might only be the rare cases of them acting out!

AuroramancerSep 22, 20163 votes

So you are basically asking for every single person to get even the smallest punishment when it might only be the rare cases of them acting out!

Precisely, I am indeed asking for that. People act out that way in rare cases because they know Riot won't do anything about that.

The precedent is that if they don't act out every game, then it's acceptable to do so every now and then. And that is not acceptable.

Telephone BoothSep 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This kind of attitude/principle gives way for players to mock Riot and say "i won't be punished lol"

That's why I suggested a very minor punishment, like a 5-game chat restriction. Not terrible by any means, but it's Riot sending a message

I think it's mainly because being "toxic" is very subjective. They have to give some leniency because not everyone grew up the same. Everyone has different standards on what is toxic. Some people talk to eachother in ways that some would think is rude, while others wouldn't even see a hint of rudeness in. Zero tolerance for toxic chat sounds very very restricted and a weird environment to play in .. like you basically wouldn't be able to say anything neutral because it could be spun as a negative comment.

AuroramancerSep 24, 20161 votes

It has nothing to do with subjectivity.

It's the fact that a player can go into a game and flame teammates like "lol what a fucking noob, you're a stupid %%%%, go die", and get away with it because they have 100 other games where they didn't do it.

This is what is meant by the zero-tolerance policy (or lack thereof). That should never be allowed to happen.

Telephone BoothSep 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It has nothing to do with subjectivity.

It's the fact that a player can go into a game and flame teammates like "lol what a fucking noob, you're a stupid %%%%, go die", and get away with it because they have 100 other games where they didn't do it.

This is what is meant by the zero-tolerance policy (or lack thereof). That should never be allowed to happen.

Alright, first of all I don't think saying offensive things should be bannable at all. I don't think people being offended warrants a ban from a game. That being said, I do think it's a huge distraction from the game and it's gonna cause people to want to talk back and the only reason I support punishments for certain kinds of chat is because it sparks flame wars.

Now, at what point does the zero tolerance policy come into effect? Does GG EZ fall into the zero tolerance zone and equate to a permaban? Does saying "damn dude, stop dying plz" warrant a permaban the first time u ever say it? It is subjective man. Because it sets precedents and if you ban one guy for saying something borderline toxic, then you gotta ban everyone else for that... then say someone says something a little less bad, but still considered toxic by half the community... do you ban him too? Where's the line?

That's my point. I get that you want immediate punishments (zero tolerance) for really bad things, but at what point does the zero tolerance drop out and leniency comes in? I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean toxicity isn't subjective.

AuroramancerSep 24, 20161 votes

I don't think you read the original post very thoroughly.

I have already stated, that a proper way to implement zero-tolerance punishments is by making them very minor for infrequent offenders. Say in my example of the flamer (1 in 100 games), of course that shouldn't be a permaban, but a 5-game chat restriction isn't terrible for the player by any means.

I'm not even proposing an overhaul of Riot's current behavior evaluation and punishment methods.

I'm just asking for at least very small punishments to infrequent offenders to be tacked on to Riot's current punishment tiers, just to eliminate the precedent of "lol Riot won't do anything about it"

No need to twist and hyperbolize what I'm saying.

Telephone BoothSep 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you read the original post very thoroughly.

I have already stated, that a proper way to implement zero-tolerance punishments is by making them very minor for infrequent offenders. Say in my example of the flamer (1 in 100 games), of course that shouldn't be a permaban, but a 5-game chat restriction isn't terrible for the player by any means.

I'm not even proposing an overhaul of Riot's current behavior evaluation and punishment methods.

I'm just asking for at least very small punishments to infrequent offenders to be tacked on to Riot's current punishment tiers, just to eliminate the precedent of "lol Riot won't do anything about it"

No need to twist and hyperbolize what I'm saying.

Alright alright maybe I was being a little too nit picky about it. I just hear zero tolerance and increasing punishments for toxicity - which I believe is punished just fine, unlike trolling behaviors - and I think no we have enough focus on that already so just dont. Lol idk man. I get what you're saying now.. it's just still there could be a lot of misinterpretation and little punishments just cuz u spoke a little too rudely to someone. I guess I agree that instead of letting it build on someone's record you could nip it in the bud and let em know immediately with a very small punishment that they're on a path to bigger punishments.

AuroramancerSep 26, 20161 votes

it's just still there could be a lot of misinterpretation and little punishments just cuz u spoke a little too rudely to someone.

I'm not talking about subjective behaviors. I'm talking about full-blown rage-induced flame and hate. When someone is all "go die you fucking boosted account scumbag", that NEEDS to be punished.

Normally, if someone does that in 1 game, but they have 99 games where they don't act like that, then nothing happens. This is what I mean by infrequent offenders, people who are SEVERELY toxic but in such a low volume of their games played that they don't get punished.

Telephone BoothSep 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking about subjective behaviors. I'm talking about full-blown rage-induced flame and hate. When someone is all "go die you fucking boosted account scumbag", that NEEDS to be punished.

Normally, if someone does that in 1 game, but they have 99 games where they don't act like that, then nothing happens. This is what I mean by infrequent offenders, people who are SEVERELY toxic but in such a low volume of their games played that they don't get punished.

Alright I agree with you... sorry I thought it already worked that way lol. If you flame bad enough, you get punished, regardless if it was just a 1 time occurence.

But I guess people get away with it unless they do it consistently enough, or get lucky and somehow slip by.

Not xPekeSep 22, 20161 votes

People using the word 'cancer' and other more objectively "serious" words should not be given the 'people have bad days' way out. Some lines should not be crossed no matter how bad of a day you have.

I've witnessed a player wishing cancer, using that specific word like 20 times (no exaggeration) in a single game. Bad day or not, he should have been punished instantly. Yet wasn't.

SarutobiSep 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=37PcnQAO,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-09-22T21:06:47.039+0000)

People using the word 'cancer' and other more objectively "serious" words should not be given the 'people have bad days' way out. Some lines should not be crossed no matter how bad of a day you have.

I've witnessed a player wishing cancer, using that specific word like 20 times (no exaggeration) in a single game. Bad day or not, he should have been punished instantly. Yet wasn't.

You are talking about the extreme, i think everyone can agree that things like that with or without context shouldnt be said in general. Im talking about the bare minimal especially if its a 5 game chat ban. Most people wont take it serious as others have said in this post, as well as the fact that it didnt work when they did implement something like this before.

Im talking about people who slip up the with the "You're Bad" type of toxic behavior. to some people forget or it slips and to have them punished for that would be horrible especially if it only happen in a rare situation! I mean once you get hit by any type of punishment you are basically being watched for any type of rule breaking you might do, and since everyone acts like this once in awhile. It would be like asking for people to be arrested just for being Mad. Yes there are extreme situations, but to basically say everyone should be punished is horrible!

Not xPekeSep 23, 20161 votes

Don't get me wrong I understand and agree with what you're saying.

And yes, I was talking about the extreme because I'm trying to point out the system isn't working. The amount of toxicity I witness in game myself, with players being let go with no punishment is staggering.

And believe me, people are already getting punished for "you're bad" or calling someone out for trolling. That's why it annoys me to witness people wishing cancer and more serious insults, when there are people getting punished for far far less (unless they alter their chat logs when they post on the boards). So in a way people should be banned on their "first" bad day as long as it's not just for saying "you're bad".

Anyway I agree with you.

ModPrandineSep 22, 20163 votes

The reason is because Riot's policy is Reform First, Remove Second. While there are most certainly zero tolerance behaviors such as hate speech, death threats and the like, Riot understands that people will have bad days and bad games every now and then, which is why it's only those who frequently act up are the ones that get punished. The punishment tiers/levels are like so:

1st offense: 10-game chat restriction. 2nd offense: 25-game chat restriction. 3rd offense: 2-week ban. 4th offense: Permanent ban.

Normally you only go to the next step up when you're punished, but extremely poor behavior such as hate speech, death threats and racist comments will be escalated to a 2-week or permaban status right then and there. If a person truly puts in the actual effort that it takes to reform then they will drop down punishments tiers over time to the point where they'll receive lesser punishments should they be punished again.

For some, all it takes is a wake-up call in the form of a chat restriction or a 2-week ban for them to change their behavior for the better, but for others, they have to be removed from the game entirely in order to learn that acting like a jerk to others is not tolerated here.

AuroramancerSep 22, 20161 votes

I have no misunderstanding of the punishment system, regarding all of the points you brought up.

I am merely questioning why there is not a "lower"-tier punishment (such as a 5-game chat restriction), simply to send out the message to infrequent offenders that any shitty behavior is unacceptable.

I bring this up because in my last week of playing, I have filed approximately 30 reports on legitimate flamers and intentional feeders, and have only gotten feedback on ONE report, and it was on a player who was very blatantly displaying sexism in all chat.

Sure, those other 29 flamers could have been examples of infrequent toxicity, but why should anyone have to put up with that. 29 unique cases of infrequent toxicity is insufferable.

Lower tier punishments to set a precedence against infrequent toxicity is the next step in solving League's image of having a toxic playerbase

ModUlanopoSep 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I am merely questioning why there is not a "lower"-tier punishment (such as a 5-game chat restriction), simply to send out the message to infrequent offenders that any shitty behavior is unacceptable.

Mostly because their research into the effectiveness of punishments indicates otherwise. The 10-game restriction is about as light as it can get and still have meaning.

ModPrandineSep 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I have no misunderstanding of the punishment system, regarding all of the points you brought up.

I am merely questioning why there is not a "lower"-tier punishment (such as a 5-game chat restriction), simply to send out the message to infrequent offenders that any shitty behavior is unacceptable.

I bring this up because in my last week of playing, I have filed approximately 30 reports on legitimate flamers and intentional feeders, and have only gotten feedback on ONE report, and it was on a player who was very blatantly displaying sexism in all chat.

Sure, those other 29 flamers could have been examples of infrequent toxicity, but why should anyone have to put up with that. 29 unique cases of infrequent toxicity is insufferable.

Lower tier punishments to set a precedence against infrequent toxicity is the next step in solving League's image of having a toxic playerbase

The reason is simple: a 10-game chat restriction is long enough to get the message across under normal circumstances for most people (i.e. that chat is to be used for important things that are not verbally abusing and harassing others) but short enough so that it doesn't hamper a players ability to effectively communicate with their team across multiple games.

Regarding the feedback message, you only get that if it was your report alone that triggered a punishment of the person in question. This does not mean that the other people weren't punished, but simply that it wasn't your report alone that punished them. I agree that Riot should do a better job at making this fact more well-known and available to everyone but that's basically the gist of it.

Palmeiras SerieBSep 22, 20162 votes

IMO the lack of report feedback is the biggest flaw of the entire report system. As only the people that were in the last match before a punishment happens receive this feedback, most of the people that reported did not receive the feedback and some people never received a feedback even once.

Due to the lack of feedback, eventually more people starts to think that reporting is useless or that Riot does not give a single fuck about this.

69469238DEL1Sep 22, 20162 votes

Riot wouldn't have any players left if they implemented your ideas, people are going to get mad, especially in lower elos where they blame their team for their own mistakes. We can't punish them all constantly, and the resources necessary to read every game chat for every report is a bit much

MUSHROOM MIDGETSep 24, 20162 votes

they are already losing tons of money for banning 5% of the playerbase. you want them to burn more money?

unlikely.

MattmanganonSep 24, 20162 votes

Because Toxic players are usually the ones who buy the most Riot Points.

Sad to say that those who deliberately go out of their way to annoy or berate players are given less punishment than those who have problems like sudden internet drops or having to quickly go AFK due to dog getting its jaws on a chicken bone that could kill it, or someone falling down the stares (Because guys that leave the game for reasons like that are actually baby-eating monsters who deserve everything they get.)

scazzmanSep 24, 20161 votes

*noms on his baby meat

Ada WongSep 22, 20161 votes

It honestly depends on the issue someone who is "Extremely Toxic" I have seen banned for 2 weeks the first time...

The question I ask is why Riot makes the game toxic "Forced Roles" with "auto fill" a few days ago generating me a negative experience with others, causing hard tilts, and why they don't take toxic behaviors such as "Retar*" or "Ignorance" more seriously as in players who flat out don't use their brain at all I mean come on there is bad play, and then there is being "Stupid" ruining games and plays on purpose giving enemy advantage in a MOBA, and that needs to stop.

nerak23Sep 22, 20161 votes

Except the fact that (at least from what I remember) they do give you warning about your behavior, or at the very least tell you that you've been reported frequently. I'm not quite sure if they still do this,but I would assume so.

This is what I thought also, Is It still true?

Unstoppable MonkSep 22, 20161 votes

Zero tolerance policies have proven to be the cancer of society made manifest, socially conforming people into a powder keg of going apeshit if there are no rules or oversights.

So technically not ethical philosophically speaking.

Morality CoachSep 22, 20161 votes

If you say a lot of key banned words you will get punished pretty quickly actually. A lot of other punishments come too slow though.

Tina1992Sep 22, 20161 votes

I am a gold 5 player and play few games every day for 3 years. I found that I met lots of flames that makes my feel bad. I am a CHinese player and lots of flamer use Chinese word for verbal abuse. I hope there is a option to mute all except friends. However, they can still tell the ralavate information in chat, like ability cd time and pin.

Didn't you found that 90percent of chat is in a gold match is flaming and blaming in a gold match? Please add this option for a happy game囧

nerak23Sep 22, 20161 votes

Zero tolerance policies have proven to be the cancer of society made manifest, socially conforming people into a powder keg of going apeshit if there are no rules or oversights.

Not sure where your going with this "Cancer" Statement. But, this is part of the problem.

I could engage in a dispute about whether this works in the U.S., but it doesn't because people don't use a Zero tolerance here.

BUT, we are talking about a GAME and Riot is the forerunners on how to adjust a free game to be sure. And, unless a person is totally out of hand the system will find them.

If Not, Please Riot check the boards for such!

ShadowxBladesSep 22, 20161 votes

First of all i didnt read your post cause you are uneducated, I have been banned 20 times. Zero policy, please just stop using the boards, cause you are useless.

rtbf221651412Sep 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

First of all i didnt read your post cause you are uneducated, I have been banned 20 times. Zero policy, please just stop using the boards, cause you are useless.

You are a clear example of their lack of zero tolerance. Your accounts shouldn't have been banned 20 times. Instead, your IP should have been banned along with your accounts. Also, this statement itself along with you still existing on the boards is also an example of lack of zero tolerance in itself. They just allow you to roam.

Sure you can change your IP, but that doesn't mean it won't be more annoying to create another account to annoy other people. The harder it is on your to continue trolling, the better and less reasons you have to do it due to the repercussions. In other words, the repercussions for people like you are not high enough and should be dealt with accordingly.

This is, of course, assuming you are telling the truth. Either way, you would still have grounds of instigating even if this is considered a lie. Whether suspended, banned, or not is up to the context of the situation.

So, you have no grounds for any of your statements and should be taken with less than a grain of salt due to the nature of your post.

Don't you hate logic that counters trolling?

Good. I'd do it again. I have no sympathy for people like you.

Mryoubeencarri3dSep 23, 20161 votes

riot is one, if not the only game that ban people for chat offense.
it's not their job to cover every single person overly offendable feelings.
Toxic behavior in chat shouldnt even be a ban offense. if you dont like what the dude is saying, mute him.
if riot REALLY care that much about peoples feelings (and not the money they get back that got spent on the banned accounts that will surely remake a smurf and spend again) they should simply remove chat from the game and develop the smart pinging even further, or even have a pick and choose premade chat comments.

rtbf221651412Sep 23, 20161 votes

I see some people saying that Riot has a zero tolerance policy:

Warframe is a game that has a zero tolerance policy with active moderators. Calling League of Legends Zero-Tolerance is a joke.
One of my acquaintances has actually played a game with Riot players. He intentionally tried to get them angry (a lot of cussing and instigating), but Riot didn't do anything, which goes on to my third point.
Instead of punishing instigators, Riot punishes the one's who react to those instigating. This goes on to my fourth point...
There is a large amount of trolls. The reason is unknown why they can't punish many of those who actually need to be punished. All that is known is the issue hasn't been dealt with after years and needs to be addressed.

You can not say Riot has a great moderation staff. That would be a slap in the face to those who actually have a great moderation staff. The logs do not show both sides of the story either when they send them to you. If they really wanted to prevent toxic behavior, they would show you why you acted the way you did, not just your actions. These lack of logs from other players also prevent you from protecting yourself from false accusations.

nerak23Sep 23, 20161 votes

Toxic behavior in chat shouldnt even be a ban offense. if you dont like what the dude is saying, mute him.

No!! If you can't behave in a decent manner mute yourself!

Why should I have to listen to trash?

Remember this!! The Boards are a small sample of what Most players want. It's easy to understand why a punished player will come here to bitch about it. Yet, it is well known that a satisfied customer will not call in/post on boards to say what they really think.

Leon EtoileSep 24, 20161 votes

They wouldn't make as much money.

I have a super toxic friend who spends over $1k a year on the game (been playing almost 2 years now). Hasn't even gotten a warning yet.

If curious some of things he has used in game: %%%%%%, %%%got, GG EZ (it is bannable and funny he uses b/c he is carried) and etc. Some of the shit is so bad, I avoid queueing with them for periods of time and have reported them myself.

nerak23Sep 25, 20161 votes

. I guess I agree that instead of letting it build on someone's record you could nip it in the bud and let em know immediately with a very small punishment that they're on a path to bigger punishments.

Are we talking in a game or board setting?