Should Riot ban people for inciting toxicity?

C men Demon·Oct 29, 2018·4 votes·5,598 views

Recently I was playing a normal game with some friends and immediately the other person was saying things such as "Why do you guys have to be a group?" and "You guys are all probably like bronze 1 without friends" in the champ select lobby. This was before anything had been said or done. So my friend responds, calling him a dickhead. Mostly because well...he was being a dickhead. So the game goes on and the player is constantly trying to get us to say shit throughout the game. The same friend gave in and called him a "%%%%" and other things of course.

However, despite the random getting reported for his actions, he received nothing. Then in the post game lobby he was calling us all trash, despite only having a mediocre 8/8/1 score. Yknow, normal random shit, however my friend who said two things the entire game gets banned for 14 days whereas the one inciting the toxicity gets absolutely nothing. Also, before it's asked, that game was the only game cited for his ban. So, why does it make sense that responding how one is prompted to respond is a bannable offense, yet prompting people to be toxic towards you is not?

I dunno maybe i'm talking out of my ass here, but what do others think?

55 Comments

Quiet DudeOct 29, 20183 votes

Inciting toxicity can be a broad claim. I incite toxicity by spamming the Ashe emote or spam /laugh BM when I get a kill. Tilts people through the roof and they start snowballing into full on verbal harassment.

Where do you draw the line?

C men DemonOct 29, 20181 votes

I mean things that can properly be recorded of course, like if they are saying shit in chat. I dunno I think riot doesn't truly care about toxicity sometimes and just bans people to show they are doing it.

I think that riot should view all chat logs when they already plan on banning someone from all players in the game. Then ban any of them who were being toxic, if they truly want to stop toxicity. It's too far spread to deal with otherwise.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

If you ban EVERYONE who says anything bad ever, then you're banning everyone.

I guarantee you even the nicest person has had a bad day and let it carry over into the game once or twice. It happens. Riot's in the business of encouraging people to be decent, not encouraging them to be perfect. As a result, people get a bit of leeway. If you call your team a-holes once, you probably won't be banned. It's only if you make a habit of it - if you are toxic with enough frequency that the system can build a case out of it.

There are a few exceptions. Things like racism or encouraging people to off themselves. Those are not things that should ever be tolerated even for the slightest second. As a result, those get caught instantly and punished immediately.

Telephone BoothOct 30, 20183 votes

No I dont think they should ban for toxicity at all. People should just mute people who bother you.

C men DemonOct 30, 20182 votes

Hey man I can get behind that, there is a mute and a block button for a reason, but this is more in the case that riot is already banning people. People don't get banned for toxicity in Korea cause they aren't a buncha whiny bitches :^)

WatchYourHeadM8Oct 31, 20183 votes

People shouldn’t be banned for talking at all in a game that has a mute and block button period

EleshakaiOct 31, 20182 votes

When people stop treating others like crap, we'll stop banning people for what they say. The ability for me to not hear what you say does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want.

WatchYourHeadM8Oct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

When people stop treating others like crap, we'll stop banning people for what they say. The ability for me to not hear what you say does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want.

Thanks hitler!

EleshakaiOct 31, 20182 votes

Really... you're equating 'don't treat people like crap' with 'the systematic destruction of an entire race of people'? Nice talking to you, I guess.

ez mental boomOct 30, 20182 votes

Nobody should get banned for words on a screen imo

C men DemonOct 31, 20182 votes

Agreed man, that's why the mute button exists

ez mental boomOct 31, 20182 votes

Today's internet wouldn't survive a day on xbox 360 voice chat

C men DemonOct 31, 20182 votes

PREAAAACCH XD true af my boy. It's like god damn people are so fuckin sensitive nowadays like what happened to the days when nobody cared if some 10 year old sent a voice message after you killed him in halo saying "Kill yourself your mom gay "

AeroWaffleOct 29, 20181 votes

A person can be hit with a punishment for their post-game chat as well. It sounds like what the other person did can count against them when reported. Just because they weren't punished or you weren't notified of a punishment doesn't make any particular action okay. It often takes several instances of reported poor behavior for someone to receive a punishment.

But if what someone said breaks the zero-tolerance rules (such as hatespeech, telling someone to kill themselves, and so on), it can easily only take one game.

C men DemonOct 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A person can be hit with a punishment for their post-game chat as well. It sounds like what the other person did can count against them when reported. Just because they weren't punished or you weren't notified of a punishment doesn't make any particular action okay. It often takes several instances of reported poor behavior for someone to receive a punishment.

But if what someone said breaks the zero-tolerance rules (such as hatespeech, telling someone to kill themselves, and so on), it can easily only take one game.

Yea I mean the report system just seems increasingly inconsistent, also honestly if anybody in 2018 is still bothered by getting told to "kys" they shouldn't be on the internet at all. Sorry, but people gotta stop bein so damn sensitive about everything.

zPOOPzOct 29, 20184 votes

It's 2018. If you can't play a game without saying kys, maybe you shouldn't be playing League at all.

C men DemonOct 29, 20181 votes

You say that like it's not said by multiple people nearly every game. It's pointless to try to combat the toxic community anymore because it is 99% of the community. I guarantee you yourself have told people to kys before or been toxic in a game before. Riot and the forums have recently adopted the "progressive" liberal sensitivity bs, and that's really all it is. The internet is not meant to be everyone's "safe space" the internet is filled with toxicity and insults. If you can't handle it then just go whine to your mother so she can tell you how "special and unique" you are.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20182 votes

I'm sorry, no. I haven't heard anyone tell someone else to kill themselves in MONTHS. This is not an acceptable expression to use, nor is it one we should be justifying by saying 'oh you're just sensitive'. If you can't keep yourself from saying that, then go see a psychiatrist. Now. Because you have some mental health issues that would be best addressed before you cause harm to someone.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

Yikes, somebody's triggered, and you very clearly don't pay much attention if you don't see people saying "kys" on the internet. I'm sorry but you sound like the "You're disrupting my safe space" kinda person. I'm just gonna let ya know now if you think everyone is going to be nice and that toxicity isn't just a part of life, or that you can have some safe space where nobody will be rude, you will always be disappointed.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20182 votes

Ahh the stereotyping. No, I think the whole 'safe space' thing is really stupid - life doesn't give those, . However, that doesn't mean anyone should have to deal with harassment because some jerk can't keep himself from displaying a little common decency

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

If you can't handle it there is a mute button. Otherwise learn to not give a shit if someone calls you a scumfuck bastard. Korea doesn't even have bans for verbal harassment or other text based toxicity, they aren't pussies like people in NA.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

Actually... it's because their accounts are tied to their personal identification numbers and thus if they're banned they can never create another, so the punishment system is more forgiving.

What justification is there for anyone permitting people mistreating people?

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

What justification is there to not allow it? It's going to happen whether it's allowed or not. Again there is a mute button for the people that can't handle it. Yet it seems like everyone refuses to hit that button and instead whines about it. Learn to deal with people being dicks to you because it's going to happen everywhere in your life.

AeroWaffleOct 31, 20182 votes

There's the option of not saying anything if you can't handle controlling your behavior in chat. Yet it seems like some people refuse to do that and instead whines about being held accountable for their behavior.

Learn to deal with consequences of your behavior because it's going to happen everywhere in your life.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There's the option of not saying anything if you can't handle controlling your behavior in chat. Yet it seems like some people refuse to do that and instead whines about being held accountable for their behavior.

Learn to deal with consequences of your behavior because it's going to happen everywhere in your life.

Yet I've never had a ban, or even a chat ban myself. So dunno who you're telling to be accountable. However i'm not blind to how the world is, so I don't expect everyone to be nice and to control themselves. As soon as you realize it's just pointless words that don't truly harm anyone and is more someone just venting their anger, you'll be better off. Everyone forgets about it like 2 mins into their next game anyways, who cares just let it be. The world isn't going to change for people who need extra sensitivity.

AeroWaffleOct 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yet I've never had a ban, or even a chat ban myself. So dunno who you're telling to be accountable. However i'm not blind to how the world is, so I don't expect everyone to be nice and to control themselves. As soon as you realize it's just pointless words that don't truly harm anyone and is more someone just venting their anger, you'll be better off. Everyone forgets about it like 2 mins into their next game anyways, who cares just let it be. The world isn't going to change for people who need extra sensitivity.

A person can understand that there will always be assholes in the world no matter what behavioral rules are involved, but still desire less of them in their games. Any private establishment that throws out people for misbehavior understands that they wont be eliminating poor behavior outside their establishment or even completely inside their establishment. But they do it so that the experience inside their area is better for those than remain civil.

More often than not people don't want to play with someone who has gone out of their way to insult them. It's that simple.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

Simple: Even if a goal is difficult to attain, does not mean that goal is not worth pursuing.

Yes, it is unlikely we will ever 'kill toxicity completely'. However, if we DON'T punish it, we are making the statement that we support it by putting the onus on the victim to address it rather than the aggressor to control themselves.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Simple: Even if a goal is difficult to attain, does not mean that goal is not worth pursuing.

Yes, it is unlikely we will ever 'kill toxicity completely'. However, if we DON'T punish it, we are making the statement that we support it by putting the onus on the victim to address it rather than the aggressor to control themselves.

Again M U T E them, and if you don’t punish something it doesn’t mean you support it. The “victim” , if you can even call them that, has full power in that situation it is legitimately as simple as clicking a button. Boom that person no longer has to see toxicity, and the toxic person can continue venting, win win

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

No, it's not a win win. Because we still have a toxic person, and we are now sending the message to them that them being toxic is FINE BY US. Which it isn't. At all. Muting is a bandaid, not a cure. It is what we do to minimize the impact of toxicity, but it is not the solution to it.

If we go that route, telling the victim to mute in stead of telling the aggressor 'stop being a jerk', then our ACTIONS send the following message:

"We're okay with toxicity, so if you don't like it, do something about it."

The message that I, and clearly Riot, want to send is:

"We're not okay with toxicity, so if you're toxic, get out of our community."

The only reason 'mute' exists is that we don't want the victim to feel completely powerless in the situation. So we give them a tool to band-aid it until it can be fixed by systemic changes.

This is fundamentally the same concept as why restaurants will throw people who get too insulting out. They know doing so will not prevent that person from being a jerk elsewhere, and that it will not stop people from being a jerk inside forever... but it sends a message to everyone there that this behaviour will not be tolerated, and it helps to make the experience better for the people dining AND the people serving.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No, it's not a win win. Because we still have a toxic person, and we are now sending the message to them that them being toxic is FINE BY US. Which it isn't. At all. Muting is a bandaid, not a cure. It is what we do to minimize the impact of toxicity, but it is not the solution to it.

If we go that route, telling the victim to mute in stead of telling the aggressor 'stop being a jerk', then our ACTIONS send the following message:

"We're okay with toxicity, so if you don't like it, do something about it."

The message that I, and clearly Riot, want to send is:

"We're not okay with toxicity, so if you're toxic, get out of our community."

The only reason 'mute' exists is that we don't want the victim to feel completely powerless in the situation. So we give them a tool to band-aid it until it can be fixed by systemic changes.

This is fundamentally the same concept as why restaurants will throw people who get too insulting out. They know doing so will not prevent that person from being a jerk elsewhere, and that it will not stop people from being a jerk inside forever... but it sends a message to everyone there that this behaviour will not be tolerated, and it helps to make the experience better for the people dining AND the people serving.

Oh yea? And how is that “we want toxic people out of league” thing going for you and riot xD league’s community has only gotten increasingly more toxic over the years. That’s not a cure either, there is no cure but if the “victim” is to stupid to hit the mute button that’s their fault. Calling them victims is a stretch in its own right, they aren’t truly being harmed, and if they are they need to grow the fuck up and realize it’s just somebody talking shit on the internet. You should not be anywhere near the internet if you can’t handle people talking shit plain and simple. Everywhere you go people are going to talk shit.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

I disagree. I've noticed a decrease in the number of people I have to report over the years.

Again, as I said, you'll never get rid of it entirely. But just because a noble goal is difficult, does not make it not worth pursuing. If it improves it even slightly, it's worth it. And, so far, the only people I see claiming it's getting worse are people who are clearly bringing their own toxicity with them.

I'm of the opposite opinion: If you can't keep yourself from treating others poorly for no valid reason, you shouldn't be permitted into a social environment like the internet. But we'll see how things go in the future.

I truly feel bad for you if you see that everywhere you go online. Because I don't. I see it in some places, but not very often. But maybe I'm just not picking the places that encourage toxicity like you.

BlamOct 30, 20181 votes

The guy that que'd solo without friends tried to make fun of you and your friends for not having friends? ok..

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

Lmao right? I checked his profile and he legit never plays with friends XD thought it was funny that he was shitting on us for actually having friends to play with

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

I don't think what that person did is enough in a single occurrence to justify a punishment, however if he does that EVERY game, then ya. Eventually he'd deserve punishment.

As far as your friend's example... if he got a 14 day ban, then the %%%%% you mention was one of the zero tolerance words. There's a reason they're called zero tolerance words. Sorry, your friend deserved it.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

I never once claimed that my friend doesn't deserve it, my friends toxic af lmao. Zero tolerance words are cancerous to have anywhere anyways however. Just another rule trying to bar people's free speech.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20182 votes

Free speech doesn't apply to private spaces like the game's online community.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

Still doesn't make it right for people to restrain what you're allowed to say just because some people are too sensitive to handle basic insults.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

It is ABSOLUTELY right to do so. It happens in EVERY SINGLE PLACE you go. Go to a store and start calling the clerks all sorts of names, and you'll be kicked out. Go to a library and spout racial slurs and the cops will likely be called. Go to a restaurant and start insulting the people at the table next to yours and you'll be asked to leave.

There's no reason why this environment should be any different from any other space we enter.

C men DemonOct 31, 2018

{quoted}

It is ABSOLUTELY right to do so. It happens in EVERY SINGLE PLACE you go. Go to a store and start calling the clerks all sorts of names, and you'll be kicked out. Go to a library and spout racial slurs and the cops will likely be called. Go to a restaurant and start insulting the people at the table next to yours and you'll be asked to leave.

There's no reason why this environment should be any different from any other space we enter.

Lol notice however none of those are “you said this one word this one time so now you have to leave” or “oh you said a word police are on the way” I’m talking about the pansy ass “zero tolerance” words. Speaking of why don’t we have a list of those words? Seems like something the community should know if one word = a 14 day ban. There is a difference between punishing someone for saying a single word and punishing them for a string of curses.

However at the end of the day I hate the term bad words or curses, they are simply words.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

Actually, if you spout a racial slur even once in any private establishment, they'll most likely ask you to leave. And if you tell the employees to off themselves, same thing - once and you'll be out.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Actually, if you spout a racial slur even once in any private establishment, they'll most likely ask you to leave. And if you tell the employees to off themselves, same thing - once and you'll be out.

I dunno personally never seen anybody get kicked out for a single thing, then again never seen anybody irl tell someone to kys in a restaurant. Tho that’s just difference between real life and online. Tho I’ve heard plenty of people use racial slurs in a restaurant and they are asked to stop. Not immediately kicked out.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

Huh... I almost never hear anyone use racial slurs. I guess I just don't associate with the type of horrible people you do... but I've seen people escorted out of stores for using them a couple of times.

And that's the problem. As long as we keep accepting 'well that's just how people are online' it will never change. We SHOULDN'T just accept that.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Huh... I almost never hear anyone use racial slurs. I guess I just don't associate with the type of horrible people you do... but I've seen people escorted out of stores for using them a couple of times.

And that's the problem. As long as we keep accepting 'well that's just how people are online' it will never change. We SHOULDN'T just accept that.

I work at a restaurant is the only reason I've heard it, first off. Secondly get off your high horse, we both know you've been toxic and used some kinda slur or curse word before. Also, even if you're saying to yourself or to me "yea but it's like every once in a while" are you not still part of the problem you are complaining about? I've been toxic, not enough to get banned or chat restricted, but i'm also not gonna sit there and talk down to the people who have. I believe it's more of a problem that there are a set group of words within language that people are forbid from using due to them being "curses" or "slurs" just call them what they are, words. Nothing more, nothing less. If people instead accept that, the words have absolutely no more power than calling someone a "doo doo butthead" in elementary school.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

As to your first point, with regards to toxicity... I try very hard to avoid it. I can't say I've NEVER gotten angry, but I regret when I do it. As far as cursing goes, I do it occasionally but mostly directed at myself. Like "WTF was I thinking?" - nobody ever seems upset by that, in fact it often breaks tension, so I don't really consider that a problem. There was a time when I was legitimately toxic. I'm fortunate I never got banned during that, but I don't deny it. I was a little shit. It was in my early 20s and I was awful. I'm even more fortunate my wife was willing to put up with me while I overcame that particular phase of awful. Because I've been there, and I know it does NO good at all(for yourself or others), and it is ABSOLUTELY wrong in every possible way, I do my best to encourage people to NOT act like that. As to your comment about words... words have power. Having seen people both driven to suicide by them, driven to succeed by them, pushed to fail by them, and even seeing lives saved by them, I can speak from great personal experience to the power of words. It is generally seen as a sign of an emotional disorder to be completely unaffected by the words of others, because we are - by nature - social creatures.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

As to your first point, with regards to toxicity... I try very hard to avoid it. I can't say I've NEVER gotten angry, but I regret when I do it. As far as cursing goes, I do it occasionally but mostly directed at myself. Like "WTF was I thinking?" - nobody ever seems upset by that, in fact it often breaks tension, so I don't really consider that a problem. There was a time when I was legitimately toxic. I'm fortunate I never got banned during that, but I don't deny it. I was a little shit. It was in my early 20s and I was awful. I'm even more fortunate my wife was willing to put up with me while I overcame that particular phase of awful. Because I've been there, and I know it does NO good at all(for yourself or others), and it is ABSOLUTELY wrong in every possible way, I do my best to encourage people to NOT act like that. As to your comment about words... words have power. Having seen people both driven to suicide by them, driven to succeed by them, pushed to fail by them, and even seeing lives saved by them, I can speak from great personal experience to the power of words. It is generally seen as a sign of an emotional disorder to be completely unaffected by the words of others, because we are - by nature - social creatures.

I do believe that the space within a game isn’t the same though, games are at the core stress relievers/time sinks. I’ve never been bothered by anyone’s words for more than 5 minutes, so I don’t care if people are toxic plain and simple. To them that could be their stress relief, I just don’t know where people get off to telling people they aren’t allowed to get mad or talk shit in a video game. It’s been around since multiplayer games have existed. Words are what you make them. If someone is too weak mentally to handle something as simple as words then they should stay away from the areas they can’t handle. Such as video games, you can blame the one doing it all you want, however the “victim” is just as much at fault for going somewhere they know they can’t handle.

EleshakaiOct 31, 20181 votes

I love how anyone who is different from you is 'weak'.

Just because you are NOT bothered by words, does not mean that applies to most people. In fact, it applies to very few people... and most of those suffer from social or emotional disorders in some form or another.

"I'm gonna punch you in the gut. If it hurts, it's because you're weak." Is there a problem with that statement? Would that fly in real life? Would you be likely to be found innocent when the person charged you with assault by claiming 'he shouldn't have been so weak'?

It is not a matter of being 'weak'. But I don't think you'll ever understand that... so I think I'll bow out of this discussion here.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I love how anyone who is different from you is 'weak'.

Just because you are NOT bothered by words, does not mean that applies to most people. In fact, it applies to very few people... and most of those suffer from social or emotional disorders in some form or another.

"I'm gonna punch you in the gut. If it hurts, it's because you're weak." Is there a problem with that statement? Would that fly in real life? Would you be likely to be found innocent when the person charged you with assault by claiming 'he shouldn't have been so weak'?

It is not a matter of being 'weak'. But I don't think you'll ever understand that... so I think I'll bow out of this discussion here.

The issue is, it’s words on a screen that by not hitting the mute button you are choosing to see. Physical acts are much different from verbal ones. Though I was about to say the same about this conversation. You will never accept that the world has simply become full of pussies in the more recent years. Just as I won’t accept people whining about words. It’s a futile argument, just like banning people at the end of the day is also futile.

However one last analogy, as someone who raid leads in WoW I constantly have to tell people what mechanics to dodge and what is their personal responsibilities. Hitting the mute button is just that, a simple mechanic to dodge things you can’t handle. It’s as simple as a single button press, if you can’t handle toxic people hit the mute button. If you can’t do something as simple as hitting a button it’s a stupid personal mistake.

Also I find it a bit sad that someone out of their early 20s is still complaining about shit talk (assuming by your previous message about your own toxicity that you’re 24+, where you said you were toxic in your early 20s). Like honestly people are gonna be assholes wether you like it or not. I expect people in high school to whine about it, but not grown ass people.

FaneseekerOct 31, 20181 votes

nope, why were you so easily incited? sound like a lot of your problem there. Own it up man, can't take a little instigation don't play high octane games. People will do anything to gain an edge. If your opponent tilted you in the first min of the game, that is your loss his win. Sound strategy by my book, plus it's not easy, do it stupidly the instigator risks ban as well. It's an art. So I think its all fair game.

Sometimes you get people that instigate their own team, for whatever reason. The best thing you can do is mute, or ignore and just report after the game. I've met players that structure their words in a certain way to force or trick you to into using "trigger words" those people are scums of the scum, just cover your own diligence you'll be fine.

For example, someone that say things like "I'm gonna kms", They won't get banned for saying it, but if you follow him, then gg you are getting banned. These malicious intends will always be around, it's around in the real world too. Knowing what you are up against is your best defence.

C men DemonOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

nope, why were you so easily incited? sound like a lot of your problem there. Own it up man, can't take a little instigation don't play high octane games. People will do anything to gain an edge. If your opponent tilted you in the first min of the game, that is your loss his win. Sound strategy by my book, plus it's not easy, do it stupidly the instigator risks ban as well. It's an art. So I think its all fair game.

Sometimes you get people that instigate their own team, for whatever reason. The best thing you can do is mute, or ignore and just report after the game. I've met players that structure their words in a certain way to force or trick you to into using "trigger words" those people are scums of the scum, just cover your own diligence you'll be fine.

For example, someone that say things like "I'm gonna kms", They won't get banned for saying it, but if you follow him, then gg you are getting banned. These malicious intends will always be around, it's around in the real world too. Knowing what you are up against is your best defence.

I was not incited, my friend was, but either way the guy was making it his goal to bait as hard as he could. What I meant by this however is, if riot is already banning someone should they not also ban the one instigating the whole ordeal. It’s not too difficult of a concept as it’s done pretty much anywhere else. Schools, work, life, when two people get in a argument or fight and are punished, both people are punished. So why not make it the same for league, both parties are toxic afterall.

FaneseekerOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I was not incited, my friend was, but either way the guy was making it his goal to bait as hard as he could. What I meant by this however is, if riot is already banning someone should they not also ban the one instigating the whole ordeal. It’s not too difficult of a concept as it’s done pretty much anywhere else. Schools, work, life, when two people get in a argument or fight and are punished, both people are punished. So why not make it the same for league, both parties are toxic afterall.

Maybe your friend is more toxic so he got banned first lol. Maybe the instigator figured that he could probably take a few hits before the ban so he did it

remeber, a lot is at stake right now, get banned now basically means no rewards..lol don't fall it period is ur best protect and a better community as a whole, can't clap with 1 hand.