Boards›Player Behavior

The sad state of toxicity in the community... on both sides.

A Cynical Asian··19 votes·2,121 views

So, I've read some of the posts on the Player Behavior forum. And it seems to be the same pattern every time I read posts.

  • Toxicity both among regular players and so-called pillars of the community seems rampant as general. And nothing is being done to address this. Blaming teammates, targeting poorly performing players for harassment, taunting the other team through emotes and "ggez" in all-chat are rampant as usual. You want to discuss toxicity on these forums? It seems there's a condescending undercurrent among some of those who reply to other posts on this board. Confirmation bias is really bad. You got banned for toxic in-game chat? Too bad, too sad, you deserve it 100%. Never mind that you try your utmost to uphold a higher standard of behavior most games. You slipped once? You're grouped with the rest of the toxic folks. Luckily, that problem isn't too rampant on this board. For those who are supportive of reformed behavior, I thank you personally, as for the most part, I've tried my best to go above and beyond as a true pillar of the community after my own 2-week ban. Unfortunately though, there's this small, but significant minority of anti-toxicity elitists that treats anyone trying to complain about the broken report system with contempt and disdain.

  • Rito's answer to toxicity is intellectually lazy. LoL has earned its well-deserved reputation as one of the, if not the most, toxic gaming communities out there. Unfortunately, I disagree with Rito's answers to this problem, mainly the Instant Feedback system and the community outreach aspect. As a comparison, consider LoL with two other large communities, that of Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (CSGO) and Overwatch (OW). All three of these games feature highly competitive, team-based gameplay. However, CSGO and OW are not known to be as toxic as LoL is (although shamefully, OW seems to be catching up according to some of the videos I've seen). This is in disparity with the relatively less-moderated in-game text chat and voice chat options. Why is it that CSGO and OW are considered less toxic despite having less babysitting? I believe the answer has something to do with a deep-seated problem in LoL's community. Now, do I feel like I can answer this question adequately myself? No, I don't. That's why this board exists. However, perhaps voice chat and less moderation of the chat could help. Sure, snap at a teammate. But when you have voice chat to make up quickly and expediently and quickly plan the next move and the freedom to know that you can lash out temporarily, just this peace of mind helps to calm you down. Voice chat is much, much more personal as well. The need to lash out in the first place becomes inherently diminished when a teammate takes the reins and talks in the mic to gather the team round. "Hey, let's try this strat instead." Specific plans can be made. Anyone who tries to defuse a potential toxic situation has their potential magnified by voice chat; soothing talk in the text chat certainly helps in both LoL and CSGO and OW, but a soothing voice helps amplify the effect. Used a slur? That's not good to be honest, but if you didn't use it heavily or to specifically harass a particular player in particular (i.e. say hypothetically, LoL has voice chat and you call a man with an Asian accent a %%%%%; that would be targeted harassment), LoL has gotta let it slide in my opinion. If Rito truly cares about the player experience like they claim to, the best way isn't to automatically ban everyone for a bad word here and there. It's to tackle the bigger issues, like the casual, commonplace taunting and toxic attitudes towards other teammates that permeates the game at almost any rank and level. CSGO in particular seems to be coping quite well with toxicity despite its more lax rules. Perhaps there's something going on there.

  • The community outreach is garbage in my opinion. I've recently seem a few ads for League of Legends. "Hai, is okei 2 be nub, pls play LoL, is gud community". However, older players already cynically know the community is in no way like that at all. They come to regard Rito with more and more cynicism. Newer players get set up for disappointment. They come expecting a good time, a smooth learning curve, ample time to learn, experiment, have fun. What they get instead is a grindy experience where buying champs frequently is difficult without insane amounts of grinding, toxic teammates, smurfs at lower levels, and a frankly boring-looking selection of 450 BE champions.

  • I can't even tell anymore if the community just lacks thick skin, or if Rito is just Big Brother-level heavy-handed with their Instant Feedback system. Slurs and bad words aren't nice, we get it. Toxicity is bad, we get it. But an automated system with the authority to permaban that takes no consideration of previous behavior and context is foolish and a lazy response to the community's toxicity. Some players might just be having a bad day. Failed a test, car broke down, rainy day, who knows? "I AM INSTANT FEEDBACK SYSTEM. SYSTEM RECORDS INDICATE YOU ARE TYPiCALLY NICE PLAYER WITH CONSISTENT HONORS RECEIVED. YOU SAID BAD WORD ONE GAME BECAUSE A TEAMMATE DID BAD, HERE IS HONOR LEVEL ZERO AND A TWO-WEEK BAN FOR YOU". Gee, thanks Rito. Really makes us feel like we mean something in comparison to the daily toxic, team blaming we see in a daily basis. Especially those of us who were unfortunate enough to get a two-week ban are walking on 1 millimeter tightropes. Doesn't matter how hard you've tried to reform since your ban. Again, I relate to this personally. But I don't take flaming too well. However, I actually did create a thread a while back specifically about the Instant Feedback system and its lack of consideration of the human aspect of the game, its players. But I digress. The positive replies in that thread convinced me to get my responses to toxic teammates and flaming under control. I truly appreciate the replies. Everyone except one person was a truly big help. These days, I can say honestly I've truly tried my best to be as positive as possible. I sternly reprimand toxic teammates by saying "Stop, that's not cool."; "chill tf out dude"; "calm tf down, <insert role here> is trying their best, stop being rude to them". The most I've ever done at this point that borders toxicity is rarely calling people "damned hypocrites", and in situations where someone is feeding quite heavily (especially when they then start to berate the team), I'll occasionally just say "you're not doing that good tbh"; "you're kinda bad ngl"; "dude you're literally feeding the worst out of all of us, why are you talking". I'd hope the community would agree that it's within acceptable to objectively note that a player is doing bad, especially when such observations are made rarely and only once to avoid ruining the poorly performing player's likely negative mood any further. The system also fosters an oppressive fear among those previously banned, despite any efforts to reform. Case in point, in my last game, I was hit by a hardware check that lagged my computer severely for a good 5-10 minutes. Given its unwanted nature, I was quite angry already, especially since I had a strong lead in mid lane at the time. However, as soon as I come back, I get flamed by an Udyr who berates me for not switching lanes with him and causing him to feed and accidentally "kill-stealing". Called me a monkey and whatnot. Anyhow, after the game, combined with the flaming and the unfortunate circumstances, the cool demeanor I'd managed to try to maintain for the most part crumbled. After the flamer and most of the other players left, I ranted in some toxic language about how bad of a person he was to the final remaining person in the lobby. No slurs used, but it wasn't nice content. I'm not trying to make excuses here, as I should have tried to keep my mouth shut, and I honestly am probably worrying too much, as the person I ranted to seemed more bemused than anything and probably wouldn't report me for something I said post game, but my behavior made me deeply worried. I don't want to be permabanned by an impersonal algorithm that doesn't care about how much my already fairly decent behavior improved post-ban. And it irks me to know that I can easily permabanned without any consideration given to context. Anyway, to conclude, the Instant Feedback system ignores the human component of the system, its players, fails to address anti-competitive behavior like toxic attitudes and blaming that are not easily caught by simple filters for bad words, and creates an environment of fear among those who have been previously banned.

Big thread, I know, but I hope this gathering of all my concerns with the state of the community. Everything from behavioral elitism from a broken Instant Feedback system.

Lastly, here are some possible conclusions.

  • Allow players to more freely heat up and cool off. This prevents a consistent pattern of passive-aggressiveness, team blaming, and rage from being built up in the first place. The system needs to be more generous.

  • Voice chat will be highly helpful to not only coordinate tactics, but allow potentially toxic players to make amends with their teammates more easily. Furthermore, any pillars of the community out there who strive to deescalate situations can have their potential maximized; a soothing voice helps deescalate any potential team conflict far more than a line of text in the chat.

  • Riot needs to improve their community outreach. Older players of the game simply become more wary of the nonsense Riot peddles through its ads on YouTube ["noob-friendly game, sure"; "it's ok to be a noob"; "league has one of the best communities" (sure, it has one of the most creative in terms of original content like fanart, but it also has a notoriously toxic one)]. Newer players are misled by promises of diverse gameplay (the 450 BE selection of champions is stagnant, the weekly rotation somewhat helps but encourages unrefined gameplay without ever giving newer players a chance to truly master a champion they find fun) and a noob-friendly community (lower levels are filled with new smurf accounts smashing legitimately newer players, or they're filled with toxic teammates who haven't yet been taught a lesson by the long dick of the Instant Feedback system).

  • The Instant Feedback system is incredibly problematic. It groups more explosive, but objectively good people, with actual toxic offenders and ignores the core human aspect of the very population it seeks to police--its players.

If anyone got through all of this or saw one point in particular that stood out to them, I thank you deeply. Although I have many issues with how toxicity is handled in this community, LoL in the end is incredibly fun, and I hope other people in here are willing to share constructive discourse (destroy my argument by all means as long as it helps the community). I, for one, look forward to similarly excellent answers like those of a previous thread I created. Thanks for reading.

EDIT (1/22/18): Wow, I feel honored to have gotten so many replies on this post. Here are a few clarifications:

  • Of course voice chat shouldn't be mandatory. Wanna voice_enable 0 that nonsense? Go for it. Don't have a mic? You're cool. I'm just stating it could be a good method to mediate conflicts and encourage better teamwork.

  • I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but permabans should never be automatic. All IFS cases that may result in a permaban should be reviewed by admins on an individual basis. Of course, if the admins are just as overly stringent as the IFS system, though, that'll save none but the most blatant false positives.

33 Comments

EL HAMSTERO5 votes

the gaming community is not different than the community of cs or ow. the difference is the gameplay mechanics. and that is where the toxicity comes from.

imagine if in overwatch every time the other team killed one of your teammates their damage and defense would increase. and again on the next kill and again until there is no possible way you can even fight them. that is how it works in LoL. i think you would see a big increase in toxicity if this was how overwatch was done.

now imagine instead of a 15 min game being stuck in the game for 40 mins. your frustration has much longer to ramp up. much more of your free time is wasted.

the community is not more toxic. the game itself is much more toxic.

Gaxoo3 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=03xdAwIM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-22T19:02:34.666+0000) the community is not more toxic. the game itself is much more toxic.

This. Riot must be a bunch of sadists to create this hellishly frustrating game and punish people for raging at it.

Oxyrotten4 votes

{quoted}

This. Riot must be a bunch of sadists to create this hellishly frustrating game and punish people for raging at it.

Did you miss the dozens of snowball mechanics they have added the last couple years? Or the mocking laughter aimed at our cries of frustration?

Riot hates us. Like actual literal hate.

Ayanami3rd4 votes

Allow players to more freely heat up and cool off. This prevents a consistent pattern of passive-aggressiveness, team blaming, and rage from being built up in the first place. The system needs to be more generous.

No. I don't know what your age is (no offense), but when I was young I was taught that swearwords and "toxicity" were a no-go in communication. It might sound square, but I'm all in for good manners.

Voice chat will be highly helpful to not only coordinate tactics, but allow potentially toxic players to make amends with their teammates more easily. Furthermore, any pillars of the community out there who strive to deescalate situations can have their potential maximized; a soothing voice helps deescalate any potential team conflict far more than a line of text in the chat.

Oh my God, please no mandatory voice chat. People playing music, people trolling, screaming, bablling around in foreign languages nobody understands. That would be horrible. Of course, an optional voice chat would be fine. Concerning the exchange of strategies, this works with pings and short chat communication fine too, if everyone just uses their eyes and ears.

Riot needs to improve their community outreach. Older players of the game simply become more wary of the nonsense Riot peddles through its ads on YouTube ["noob-friendly game, sure"; "it's ok to be a noob"; "league has one of the best communities" (sure, it has one of the most creative in terms of original content like fanart, but it also has a notoriously toxic one)]. Newer players are misled by promises of diverse gameplay (the 450 BE selection of champions is stagnant, the weekly rotation somewhat helps but encourages unrefined gameplay without ever giving newer players a chance to truly master a champion they find fun) and a noob-friendly community (lower levels are filled with new smurf accounts smashing legitimately newer players, or they're filled with toxic teammates who haven't yet been taught a lesson by the long dick of the Instant Feedback system).

I totally agree with that. New players are just outright lost in this game, and although I play myself on a daily basis, I hesitate to recommend the game to friends. Everyone for sure remembers the painful first three months of LoL, where you are just the noob feeder, because you just have to learn so much. Actually, I have several ideas to make the game more beginner-friendly, but where should I put them, that Riot notices them? The boards? I feel that would be wasted if the goal is to actually change something.

_The Instant Feedback system is incredibly problematic. It groups more explosive, but objectively good people, with actual toxic offenders and ignores the core human aspect of the very population it seeks to police--its players. _

Totally agreed, the report system is utterly trash. Int and troll a hundred times and you are fine, insult others once and you're climbing the punishment ladder. Also, there is zero feedback on if reports actually do something, which makes the system feel...inactive. Furthermore I wished Riot would give us statistics on reports / punishments etc., but I guess this kind of transparency would be unwanted because it led to difficult discussions.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

What the hell is a mandatory voice chat? What game has that?

Ayanami3rd1 votes

It's Riot. Please don't wake sleeping lions. :P

I don't think they'll force it upon us either. But who knows, maybe in exchange they remove the ping wheel, and put their fancy emotes in its place. :)

HavokDash3 votes

Good post, I would say copy and save it because it will get downvoted and ignored to oblivion just like the last person to try and actually show the flaws of this community. I am one of those veteran players (Started season 3) and I have watched it take a nosedive. People will come and use anything the can to dismiss your arguement, like your win/loss record, any off build, any game where you werent completely perfect.

This community is so coddled and full of themselves inside thier own echo chamber, anyone who tries to say "Here are the flaws, how do we fix it" will get Ad hommed and downvoted to hell so fast they will sink lower than teemo's toenails. This community dispises anyone that disrupts their precious little bubble. Everyone thinks they are perfect in this community, so high up on their own coddled sense of self-rightous hogwater they will sit there and throw anything they can find to not only dismiss you, but will actively try and turn your arguement into some sort of laughing stock.

I have seen good arguements be mocked and ridiculed because it actually exposes how bad this community is, and then players respond not by reasoned arguements, but they will come with random stats and subjective views. They wont argue your points, but just label you a troll, tell you how dumb you are, etc. I have no respect for the LoL community, they have given me no reason to give them any. Far as I have seen just adult children who throw temper tantrums when someone wont reinforce how Awesome they are.

You are trying to put cracks in their perfect echo chamber, thier bubble. Get ready for the downvotes and flames of the infantile community.

Karunamon2 votes

Get ready for the downvotes and flames of the infantile community.

Way to not be a part of the problem. Excellent post.

Sweet Sayonara3 votes

Agreed. The instant feedback system seems to have significant problems which are negatively impacting reasonable players. Seems like there are simple changes they could make to improve the system. For example, for instances where one player is consistently giving feedback to the team ("why fight there? You should fight under tower!" etc) and is reported for it, a short ban can be applied. Any permanent bans for chat functions should be reserved for horrible language (racial slurs, hate speech, etc). And should always be subject to review, especially when accounts have purchased RP.

HavokDash2 votes

If the player is giving FEEDBACK, and gets reported for it, There should be NO punishment. You punish players for trying to actually help each other and you really CAN stop calling this a team game. As long as someone isnt being rude about it, you shouldnt be punished for telling someone something they dont want to hear.

EVERY player on this game seems to think they are perfect, any player who offers feedback in game (As you said with the "why fight there" example) is seen as offensive "How DARE YOU tell ME I am flawed!" Everyone thinks they make no mistakes. So again, it doesnt matter how badly a player wants to imagine they are perfect and flawless, an LCS world champ just waiting for thier contract in the mail. Players shouldnt be punished for providing Constructive criticism, as these players often dont want to hear it (as It bursts their bubble of how "OP" they think they are)

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

If the player is giving FEEDBACK, and gets reported for it, There should be NO punishment. You punish players for trying to actually help each other and you really CAN stop calling this a team game. As long as someone isnt being rude about it, you shouldnt be punished for telling someone something they dont want to hear.

EVERY player on this game seems to think they are perfect, any player who offers feedback in game (As you said with the "why fight there" example) is seen as offensive "How DARE YOU tell ME I am flawed!" Everyone thinks they make no mistakes. So again, it doesnt matter how badly a player wants to imagine they are perfect and flawless, an LCS world champ just waiting for thier contract in the mail. Players shouldnt be punished for providing Constructive criticism, as these players often dont want to hear it (as It bursts their bubble of how "OP" they think they are)

This, by itself, sounds great. I'll qualify your statement here.

In my humble opinion, I feel like consistent criticism could be construed as toxicity and backseat driving. At one point, you gotta just let it go. They might already be frustrated and hopelessly behind (what looks like a sure kill time and time again can go wrong if the enemy player is sufficiently fed). I personally avoid providing criticism myself because it might make me look overly authoritative in chat. And I've had a couple bad games myself, especially on champs I main. I won't lie, it gets really really annoying to have people imply you're bad at your own main in team chat.

I agree with you, as long as you keep criticism to a reasonable amount and consider the issue from the other player's point of view.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=03xdAwIM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-22T11:42:41.222+0000)

Agreed. The instant feedback system seems to have significant problems which are negatively impacting reasonable players. Seems like there are simple changes they could make to improve the system. For example, for instances where one player is consistently giving feedback to the team ("why fight there? You should fight under tower!" etc) and is reported for it, a short ban can be applied. Any permanent bans for chat functions should be reserved for horrible language (racial slurs, hate speech, etc). And should always be subject to review, especially when accounts have purchased RP.

Yeah, I remember seeing your own thread. You played in JP right? Again, I feel like perhaps the caps did it for you, but again, that was nowhere near reasonable ban material.

sangesland3 votes

I have a nephew who's 13 years old now. He loves playing on his computer. But, I will NEVER recommend this game to him, despite how much I enjoy playing it myself. At least not til hes old/mature enough, ~18 years.

The toxicity in this game is just shocking. 1 failed gank or death in lane and "I'm gonna F### your mom" "F### you noob. Learn to play idiot." etc etc etc. I report it every time. But last time I got a feedback that someone had been punished was over 2 months ago. And considering how it doesn't seem to be decreasing I take it my reports are worth 0, sadly enough.

Because of the community I personally hate trying out new champions. Despite watching videos and reading guides on how to play that champion I will most likely underperform the first few games. And oh boy am I in for a shitstorm then. We all know what happens to a player who loses the lane 2/7. He gets flamed to hell and back and then reported for intentional feeding.

I would love for riot to be WAY harder on the toxicity. Both by muting and banning. And I'd also love to have the tribunal back. Maybe only allow players whos account is X years old and with few toxicity flags/reports. Or allow them to function as a GM of sorts (like in WoW).

HavokDash3 votes

Yes and yet anyone who tries to bring these things to light among the community will be told just how much they suck, how much they need to shut up and sit down because X item, X build, or They will use WIN/LOSE rate on a team game. People go on and on about how this is a team game, yet the moment you bring up that it is possible to lose a match because your mid laner fed them to 6v 30 because they didnt get their way....SUDDENLY, MAGICALLY its not a team game. Suddenly your win/lose rate is YOUR fault, your team played no part in it.

And Yes rather than suggest "Hey that item doesnt really work, a better alternative would be >insert item<" No, instead you get the pleasure of hearing some adult-toddler who thinks they are the Best player EVAH on the game tell you "Damn you suck, You need to refund your skin and go die in a hole" and then they will jump to the other team "Hey, report our X for intentional feeding, thanks" and the sad thing is, this community is such a collection of Sheep that yeah, they usually will.

Only ONCE did I see someone on the other team have the spine to actually say no. I was playing support and having a bad game. I was like 0/3 or something. Teemo starts flooding the other team with "Report the support for feeding" Someone on the other team said "Is Report the support teemo speak for "I'm a 1/8 teemo and need someone to blame to take the heat off myself"

That is why usually when I am in a match, unless its Blatant and obvious, I dont report people for "feeding" because to me, there is a difference between INTENTIONAL FEEDING and Being OUTPLAYED (You played good, they played better. Suck it up and just deal with it). I will usually even tell them. "I see no feeding, you lost the match and so need someone to be the sacrificial lamb" because that is usualy the case They lost the match But they cant handle the bruised ego So of course, throw someone under the bus, throw someone as a sacrifice so the rest of the team can go back to patting themselves on the back and telling themselves how "perfect" of a player they are.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

That is why usually when I am in a match, unless its Blatant and obvious, I dont report people for "feeding" because to me, there is a difference between INTENTIONAL FEEDING and Being OUTPLAYED (You played good, they played better. Suck it up and just deal with it). I will usually even tell them. "I see no feeding, you lost the match and so need someone to be the sacrificial lamb" because that is usualy the case They lost the match But they cant handle the bruised ego So of course, throw someone under the bus, throw someone as a sacrifice so the rest of the team can go back to patting themselves on the back and telling themselves how "perfect" of a player they are.

Agreed af. I have absolutely no patience for people who yell "Report <player> for inting". Have you never had a bad game yourself? It grinds my gears so much when I see this lack of empathy. If you've tried your best in a game but you failed, would you like someone breathing up your rear end telling you you're inting? Yeesh.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

I have a nephew who's 13 years old now. He loves playing on his computer. But, I will NEVER recommend this game to him, despite how much I enjoy playing it myself. At least not til hes old/mature enough, ~18 years.

The toxicity in this game is just shocking. 1 failed gank or death in lane and "I'm gonna F### your mom" "F### you noob. Learn to play idiot." etc etc etc. I report it every time. But last time I got a feedback that someone had been punished was over 2 months ago. And considering how it doesn't seem to be decreasing I take it my reports are worth 0, sadly enough.

Because of the community I personally hate trying out new champions. Despite watching videos and reading guides on how to play that champion I will most likely underperform the first few games. And oh boy am I in for a shitstorm then. We all know what happens to a player who loses the lane 2/7. He gets flamed to hell and back and then reported for intentional feeding.

I would love for riot to be WAY harder on the toxicity. Both by muting and banning. And I'd also love to have the tribunal back. Maybe only allow players whos account is X years old and with few toxicity flags/reports. Or allow them to function as a GM of sorts (like in WoW).

I feel you. Nothing wrong with your statement here at all, I have no clue why you'd be downvoted.

For clarification, do you mean a Tribunal as in, cases involving players with long histories and RP spent should be handled separately in a Tribunal-like system? Or as in, this new Tribunal system itself should have none but the best of the best pillars of the community as judges? Then again, both of my interpretations here sound great to me.

FurriesAreHot3 votes

I don’t think the toxicity stems from the systems at all. It’s just the nature of a MOBA, it’s inherently more frustrating due to larger teams (used to be) long games, and how powerless your character can become if behind enough. A game like Overwatch, your characters powerlevel is never changed. It’s static, all play. The games (were) much shorter than a league game.

It’s really not hard to not be an ass in this game. The few times I’ve been angry to the point of insulting a team mate I haven’t been punished since they weren’t extreme or common. There isn’t an excuse for being a consistent asshole on a league game.

Mandatory voice chat? Hell no. See Ayanami3rd’s post.

The IFS isn’t perfect, but is a really good system for what it’s worth. I don’t at all believe the claims “ah I only said 1 thing and got punished” since I sometimes say some really rude shit to teammates, but I do it so rarely the IFS let’s it be. The system is bad at looking at inting and trolling since it’s a computer, and you can only write so much code to tell what is a troll and what is a noobie. More responses on report status would be nice, though.

Wínters Dawn3 votes

"LoL has earned its well-deserved reputation as one of the, if not the most, toxic gaming communities out there."

I honestly hate this statement because I dont think its true. To say league is the most toxic community os to say the internwt as a whole is some how better.

I played Xbox live from ages 13-20 and I tell you league is JUST AS TOXIC as any other form of online community. The internet is toxic, being able to hide behind a screen is what gives people the pass to be toxic. It is not exclusive to league.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

LoL has earned its well-deserved reputation as one of the, if not the most, toxic gaming communities out there

Someone didn't play on the original XBOX Live service... [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

Someone didn't play on the original XBOX Live service... [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Oof, I started playing the Xbox 360 Live service around 2013, and that was already pretty bad. Ahaahah, I was really really toxic in my teenage years myself. If that was bad, I can't even imagine the cancerous depths of the early 2000s and the OG XBL service.

NekoniClaws2 votes

Toxicity is probably the biggest problem this game has in regards to its surviveability. 'Game's too toxic' is the reason my friends leave gaming sessions about half the time.

I wish the filters were more sensitive to plain-simple bad sportsmanship. Maybe after someone's been through a game spamming 'lol' and 'ez' and 'you're bronze' in allchat their chat could be turned off for a game? Without it adding a point for future punishment. So that repeat offenders learn to can it. Because no-one wants to be around that.

And I have to disagree with voicechat. I've been into quite a number of random discords, just to see what they were like. Just as toxic but 50 times more awkward to deal with.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

I wish the filters were more sensitive to plain-simple bad sportsmanship. Maybe after someone's been through a game spamming 'lol' and 'ez' and 'you're bronze' in allchat their chat could be turned off for a game? Without it adding a point for future punishment. So that repeat offenders learn to can it. Because no-one wants to be around that.

A system like that would be amazing, but this is probably some stuff from like, 2050. I feel like a system this sensitive would require machine learning or something, given the use of abbreviations, slang, and number of possible ways to say something toxic. Then again, bad sportsmanship seems to follow predictable patterns in the games I've seen, so perhaps this isn't too far off.

MediocreAatroxNA2 votes

Season 5 or 6, I forget. A genuinely honest post how the clock was ticking down on the final day before season ended. He/she was on final promo game and needed one last win since there was no more time to do the necessary games again. Final half hour or something.

They merely MENTIONED this in /all. They did not ASK for a win, the enemy simply, out of generosity, forfeited the match. So struck with kindness, they posted on the forums praising the community at large for having wholesome people to do something so selfless for a total stranger.

It was immediately met with the worst reception you could think of. Hundreds of downvotes, flooded with toxic remarks as far as the eye could see, and just all-around a circus.

Yet we have had posts in the past that try to JUSTIFY the abhorrent behaviour of some of League’s most disgusting individuals (and not just Tyler1) because they were, and I use the term loosely, “entertaining” on Twitch and YouTube.

If a popularity contest dictates how much a significant amount of the vocal community reacts positively vs negatively, we cannot take it seriously in the absolute slightest.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

Season 5 or 6, I forget. A genuinely honest post how the clock was ticking down on the final day before season ended. He/she was on final promo game and needed one last win since there was no more time to do the necessary games again. Final half hour or something.

They merely MENTIONED this in /all. They did not ASK for a win, the enemy simply, out of generosity, forfeited the match. So struck with kindness, they posted on the forums praising the community at large for having wholesome people to do something so selfless for a total stranger.

It was immediately met with the worst reception you could think of. Hundreds of downvotes, flooded with toxic remarks as far as the eye could see, and just all-around a circus.

Yet we have had posts in the past that try to JUSTIFY the abhorrent behaviour of some of League’s most disgusting individuals (and not just Tyler1) because they were, and I use the term loosely, “entertaining” on Twitch and YouTube.

If a popularity contest dictates how much a significant amount of the vocal community reacts positively vs negatively, we cannot take it seriously in the absolute slightest.

Heh, I smell saltiness from people who lost their promos. Jokes aside, this seems to be a huge issue with LoL in particular. There's this weird mob mentality when it comes to enforcing player behavior, and I don't know where it stems and I'm not sure if I've ever seen it in other communities.

Karunamon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Cynical Asian,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=03xdAwIM,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-22T10:16:33.074+0000)

So, I've read some of the posts on the Player Behavior forum. And it seems to be the same pattern every time I read posts.

You want to discuss toxicity on these forums? It seems there's a condescending undercurrent among some of those who reply to other posts on this board. Confirmation bias is really bad. You got banned for toxic in-game chat? Too bad, too sad, you deserve it 100%.

More like 99.9999%. The truth of the matter is, most of the posts here are complaining about their (completely justified) and they think they'll be able to wheedle either the community into agreeing with them or Riot into undoing it. It's funny, someone's chatlog will show them acting like the worst AOL troll circa 1993, and then they come here and suddenly the good english and manners come out in stark contrast to the chatlog.

I mean damn, if you'd talked like that all game, you wouldn't be making a "i got banned" thread.

Most bans are justified. 8 years of good behavior can and should be able to be thrown away by a single instance of telling someone else to kill themselves over a video game. Good behavior and honor is the baseline expectation, not some above and beyond thing.

  • I can't even tell anymore if the community just lacks thick skin,

Yup, there it is, excuse #3,297 on the big list of "reasons why this ban is bullshit rito pls". Surely this has never been said by anyone in a ban thread.

At the end of the day, most people can manage the herculean task of not telling other people to kill themselves over a video game. Those that can't are both a minority, and a problem that needs solving. If anything, I submit that Riot is entirely too lenient, giving people who have no real desire to change their behavior no less than 4 chances to do so before finally telling them that their shitty behavior is no longer welcome here.

Especially those of us who were unfortunate enough to get a two-week ban are walking on 1 millimeter tightropes.

Fortune doesn't factor into it. Your behavior does. Your actions, not the roll of a dice. I don't mean to make this personal, but this speaks to a fundamental problem in your understanding. If you got banned for your chat, you weren't "unlucky" or "unfortunate". Your willful behavior, hitting enter, striking keys, hitting enter again, was done in an unacceptable way. Riot doesn't care if you pound the wall, your desk, yell every obscenity known to man out loud in your stream. What they do care about is subjecting everyone else to that garbage. You (collective) have plenty of outlets for your rage, yet you (collectively) choose the one that makes the game shittier to play and is most likely to get you in trouble. Why on earth would you (collectively) make that decision?!

It's lack of maturity and self control. There is no other option. Too many hormonal teenagers (mentally or physically) who have been taught by other games that there is no recourse for telling someone else how badly they did their mom last night. Too many communities where telling other people to kill themselves or making threats is just handwaved as "kids being kids" or "not a big deal" or worse, "normal". Too many people who were never raised to understand that you treat people with a modicum of respect by default, even if it is "just a game".

This isn't one of those other communities. The only reason there's so much angst here is because those behavioral standards are enforced.

#It's not acceptable, there are standards here, they will be enforced, and no amount of demeaning the community as "elitist" or "thin skinned" is going to change that.

Comments like these reveal your bias. Hell, the fact that you think it's about being "thin skinned" rather than "sportsmanship" shows a complete disconnect in your beliefs vs what the IFS actually sets out to do.

Newer players are misled by promises of diverse gameplay (the 450 BE selection of champions is stagnant, the weekly rotation somewhat helps but encourages unrefined gameplay without ever giving newer players a chance to truly master a champion they find fun)

This is largely ameliorated by the new BE system. As someone climbs levels, they will be getting enough BE and shards to unlock a a few champions that they encountered in rotation.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

More like 99.9999%. The truth of the matter is, most of the posts here are complaining about their (completely justified) and they think they'll be able to wheedle either the community into agreeing with them or Riot into undoing it. It's funny, someone's chatlog will show them acting like the worst AOL troll circa 1993, and then they come here and suddenly the good english and manners come out in stark contrast to the chatlog.

I mean damn, if you'd talked like that all game, you wouldn't be making a "i got banned" thread.

I don't know if I'm being overly paranoid here; I'm sorry, I really just can't trust this community when it comes to honest discussions of toxicity. But I feel like you're insinuating that I, myself, have complained my own previous ban was unjustified. Nowhere did I say that. If that wasn't your intention, my apologies.

Most bans are justified. 8 years of good behavior can and should be able to be thrown away by a single instance of telling someone else to kill themselves over a video game. Good behavior and honor is the baseline expectation, not some above and beyond thing.

It probably is just response bias, but from the number of times I've scrolled through this forum, a lot of bans are very, very unfortunate. I personally think I didn't deserve a two-week ban for what I did (but I'll take the punishment, it was wrong in the end, as I've said before), but I've seen people do far less than me and report being banned.

Of course, it's completely plausible that these people are lying. But if their story is so easy to unravel, why post in the first place? Quite frankly, I'd prefer to believe that these people aren't that deluded. To me, this means one of two things: either this community has a large population of delusional people trying to keep their genuinely toxic accounts, or the IFS is overhanded.

Yup, there it is, excuse #3,297 on the big list of "reasons why this ban is bullshit rito pls". Surely this has never been said by anyone in a ban thread.

You can argue all you want about me having bias, and yeah, of course I do. But don't pretend to be this magnanimous, outside observer when you're willing to sweepingly generalize me into this group of genuinely toxic individuals. Why not consider your own bias? Also, sorry to be this blunt, but learn to read. At no point did I argue that my ban was unjustified. This is merely an observation about the general state of the community. Perhaps you're projecting.

At the end of the day, most people can manage the herculean task of not telling other people to kill themselves over a video game. Those that can't are both a minority, and a problem that needs solving. If anything, I submit that Riot is entirely too lenient, giving people who have no real desire to change their behavior no less than 4 chances to do so before finally telling them that their shitty behavior is no longer welcome here.

Fortune doesn't factor into it. Your behavior does. Your actions, not the roll of a dice. I don't mean to make this personal, but this speaks to a fundamental problem in your understanding. If you got banned for your chat, you weren't "unlucky" or "unfortunate". Your willful behavior, hitting enter, striking keys, hitting enter again, was done in an unacceptable way. Riot doesn't care if you pound the wall, your desk, yell every obscenity known to man out loud in your stream. What they do care about is subjecting everyone else to that garbage. You (collective) have plenty of outlets for your rage, yet you (collectively) choose the one that makes the game shittier to play and is most likely to get you in trouble. Why on earth would you (collectively) make that decision?!

It's lack of maturity and self control. There is no other option. Too many hormonal teenagers (mentally or physically) who have been taught by other games that there is no recourse for telling someone else how badly they did their mom last night. Too many communities where telling other people to kill themselves or making threats is just handwaved as "kids being kids" or "not a big deal" or worse, "normal". Too many people who were never raised to understand that you treat people with a modicum of respect by default, even if it is "just a game".

Again, you can complain about my bias all you want, but your consistent usage of words with negative connotations (hormonal teenagers) and stereotypes only shows that you're here to confirm your beliefs that there is no spectrum of toxicity.

This isn't one of those other communities. The only reason there's so much angst here is because those behavioral standards are enforced. #It's not acceptable, there are standards here, they will be enforced, and no amount of demeaning the community as "elitist" or "thin skinned" is going to change that.

Comments like these reveal your bias. Hell, the fact that you think it's about being "thin skinned" rather than "sportsmanship" shows a complete disconnect in your beliefs vs what the IFS actually sets out to do.

I'm intensely libertarian and have very, very strong First Amendment beliefs. Thus, I'd personally avoid ALL filters and handle toxicity on a case-by-case basis much like CSGO's Overwatch system or the old Tribunal system. But I understand this isn't Riot's goal. I merely want to turn the dial down. In all replies, I've seen your own bias shine the entire time, consistently misconstruing my beliefs and warping them to fit your own narrative of toxic people whining about not having the privilege of being toxic.

This is NOT what I'm looking for. In fact, I do think the IFS for the most part serves as a net positive for the community. However, I believe it's more than fair to share my criticisms of it, and your insistence in summarily sweeping aside my own argument shows your own self-serving intentions as a virtue-signaler.

This is largely ameliorated by the new BE system. As someone climbs levels, they will be getting enough BE and shards to unlock a a few champions that they encountered in rotation.

Perhaps this is just my old IP-hoarding habits carrying over. I also don't know the exact specifics of the BE system (i.e. does it treat newer and older players differently, etc.). Good point, sparse as it may be.

Karunamon2 votes

But I feel like you're insinuating that I, myself, have complained my own previous ban was unjustified. Nowhere did I say that. If that wasn't your intention, my apologies.

No, I wasn't, my usages of "you" were in every instance directed at our hypothetical banned player, not you the person reading. I should have been clearer on that.

But if their story is so easy to unravel, why post in the first place?

Like I said - people think that this game is like every other game where you're free to be the biggest shitheel you can possibly imagine with no consequence. They think their ban is a mistake, so they come to the boards to try to convince Riot or community members otherwise. Then, they read around for a moment, figure out that the fuckup is on them, and either post anyways with excuses (very common) or edited chatlogs (less common, and then we get to see Tantram swing by with the full logs - funny they usually don't bother replying after that).

I have no qualms about saying League is the only game with a somewhat functioning player behavior system, but I'm not sure if that's damning with faint praise on Riot's part or incredibly damning on the rest of multiplayer games that aren't targeted at small children.

(from this point forward, "you" means the person controlling the "A Cynical Asian" account)

You can argue all you want about me having bias, and yeah, of course I do. But don't pretend to be this magnanimous, outside observer when you're willing to sweepingly generalize me into this group of genuinely toxic individuals.

Right. The thing about your story is that you say you got an instant 2 week vacation. There are only two things that cause those with regard to chat, being slurs and suicide encouragement.

Given you didn't say what it was specifically, I can only guess, but In one thing we are different: You resorted to either racism or telling someone to end their lives over a video game, I have not, and neither has most of the player base. So I "sweep you into that group" based on nothing but your own reprehensible behavior.

So kindly spare me the "projecting" lecture, and that goes double while you make thinly-disguised "but the IFS is so mean" posts while using every single banned player talking point while saying "but my ban was justified" out the other side of your mouth. It's utterly transparent. The moment I put a foot out of line far enough that I decide to advocate suicide or call people the N-bomb over a video game, you're more than welcome to call me the biggest hypocrite to ever live.

Until then, blow it, and your barely-concealed insults, out your ear.

Why not consider your own bias?

And what bias would that be? A player who doesn't want the chat here turned into the garbage fire that exists in most other games? Someone who thinks suicide and racism are not small matters?

What perceived bias would you have me correct?

Again, you can complain about my bias all you want, but your consistent usage of words with negative connotations (hormonal teenagers) and stereotypes only shows that you're here to confirm your beliefs that there is no spectrum of toxicity.

There's a spectrum alright, but you're the one who wound up on the upper echelons of it, said it was justified that you got banned as a result (good), and then wrote a tl;dr post about how unfair the system is. (????)

Not gonna lie, you're sending mixed messages here.

Further, consider that this game is rated T. Children with low self-control are likely a significant portion of the player base.

I'm intensely libertarian and have very, very strong First Amendment beliefs.

Apparently those libertarian beliefs do not extend to what private companies choose to do on their private property? Otherwise why bring it up?

However, I believe it's more than fair to share my criticisms of it, and your insistence in summarily sweeping aside my own argument shows your own self-serving intentions as a virtue-signaler.

Your criticisms are tired, shallow, and bring nothing new to the table that hasn't been spouted a thousand times on this board by someone who got a ban they rightfully had coming. As for your "thin skinned" "elitist" "projecting" "virtue signaler" rhetoric, I say the system, with the exception of being far too lenient and evadable, is damn near perfect.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

And what bias would that be? A player who doesn't want the chat here turned into the garbage fire that exists in most other games? Someone who thinks suicide and racism are not small matters?

Other games with unmoderated text chat (mainly CSGO and OW, two games with playerbases that rival that of LoL's and also have popular appeal to younger players, and also games that I have experience with) don't have the problem with toxicity that LoL does in-game. Any toxicity that does pop-up is either stifiled quickly, or unlike LoL, players refuse to be toxic in the first place. On the other hand, LoL has a culture of toxicity. And with hundreds of hours in LoL, CS, and OW, it's more than fair for me to make a comparison.

So kindly spare me the "projecting" lecture, and that goes double while you make thinly-disguised "but the IFS is so mean" posts while using every single banned player talking point while saying "but my ban was justified" out the other side of your mouth. It's utterly transparent. The moment I put a foot out of line far enough that I decide to advocate suicide or call people the N-bomb over a video game, you're more than welcome to call me the biggest hypocrite to ever live. Until then, blow it, and your barely-concealed insults, out your ear.

Barely concealed insults? If anything, you've been the one to ratchet up the ad hominem quickly. Your arguments are just as thinly-disguised "but isolated instances of toxicity are so bad" comments. You've thrown context out of the discussion just like every other player I've criticized on your side of the debate. Furthermore, have you considered the possibility of stepping out of your ideological cage and even considering the possibility that some of the "banned player talking points" are at all possibly valid instead of sweepingly referring to them disdainfully as such? Unlike you, I've avoided both in-game and on these forums in resorting to ad hominem. You don't have any valid criticisms besides calling my own criticisms transparent and shallow; way to go criticize shallowness with more ambiguous, vague statements. Until you can come up with a valid argument that doesn't consist of insinuating I'm one of those "hormone-fueled" teenagers you like to generalize punished players as, why don't you stick to staying inside your echo chamber?

And what bias would that be? A player who doesn't want the chat here turned into the garbage fire that exists in most other games? Someone who thinks suicide and racism are not small matters? What perceived bias would you have me correct?

How about misconstruing my arguments towards leniency towards bad language as advocacy for the aforementioned toxic behavior? At this point, you're reaching for perceived shortcomings in my argument that fulfill your prejudices. Your logic or your reading comprehension barely reach juvenile levels.

Apparently those libertarian beliefs do not extend to what private companies choose to do on their private property? Otherwise why bring it up?

I'll give you this one. Pointless context. It was meant to refer to my general point of view on offensive language in general. Not just in-game, I am highly against censorship.

There's a spectrum alright, but you're the one who wound up on the upper echelons of it, said it was justified that you got banned as a result (good), and then wrote a tl;dr post about how unfair the system is. (????) Not gonna lie, you're sending mixed messages here. Further, consider that this game is rated T. Children with low self-control are likely a significant portion of the player base.

It's completely valid for someone to simultaneously accept one's punishment and still offer criticism on the method of punishment. Also, another instance of stereotypical insinuations implying I'm one of those children you like to talk so much about.

Your criticisms are tired, shallow, and bring nothing new to the table that hasn't been spouted a thousand times on this board by someone who got a ban they rightfully had coming. As for your "thin skinned" "elitist" "projecting" "virtue signaler" rhetoric, I say the system, with the exception of being far too lenient and evadable, is damn near perfect.

Your claims are just as old, overused, and skin-deep as those that've been spouted countless times on this board by someone condescendingly responding to the multitudes of people on this board offering their criticisms of the IFS and the toxic culture of LoL in general.

Quite frankly, at this point, I don't even know if you're here to offer an actual response without making yourself feel like a good boy. You've done nothing but characterize my criticisms as shallow (in essence, self-defeating, circumlocutory ad hominem) and write in a tone that's condescending and inflammatory. In fighting toxicity, you've responded in a toxic behavior; good job, I hope you feel proud of yourself.

At this point, unless you truly give me valid reasons to reconsider my viewpoint or clarify convincingly that you did not mean to write condescendingly (in which case I will attempt to reread your post with a clearer mind to determine if my bias led me to misconstrue your writing style), I'm going to stop responding to any further comments you leave. To finish with a slightly more conciliatory note, I fully respect your ambitions to create a better gaming community with less toxicity, but I cannot reconcile that with the smug behavior you've shown and your inability to recognize that punished players have just as much of a right as "clean" players to offer their input regarding the system's measures to combat toxicity.

87870959DEL12 votes

Thread is mostly on point and true.

I've never been banned so hard from a game that got me banned for putting up with toxic players shit with out actualling harassing them back.

I've played a lot of online games interacting with people in a large community. Mabinogi, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Dragon Nest, Ragnarok, Wonderland Online and other varios online games that I've played or tried. This is certaintly the worst most piece of shit community, report system and game I've ever had experimented with.

Six Inch Heals1 votes

Toxicity would honestly curb itself if Riot showed that people who intentionally trolled other people's games (troll picks, double jungling nonsense, etc) without teammate's consent actually yielded some sort of punishment.

When you hold one element of toxicity higher than the rest, the one that "doesn't matter" is bound to be exploited, inciting the former out of most players.

To be clear, I believe it is equally damaging to a game to be 0-15-0 and nice than it is to be 15-0-15 and a jerk.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leona Helmsley,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=03xdAwIM,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-01-24T01:07:14.796+0000)

Toxicity would honestly curb itself if Riot showed that people who intentionally trolled other people's games (troll picks, double jungling nonsense, etc) without teammate's consent actually yielded some sort of punishment.

When you hold one element of toxicity higher than the rest, the one that "doesn't matter" is bound to be exploited, inciting the former out of most players.

To be clear, I believe it is equally damaging to a game to be 0-15-0 and nice than it is to be 15-0-15 and a jerk.

That's actually a really good point. Maybe your reasoning explains how "soft trolling" (i.e. that which isn't blatantly obvious to the IFS) is so much more rampant than blatant slurs.

Ambitious Minnow1 votes

Fact: LoL is toxic because Riot is toxic from the top down. I'll give some clear examples here:

I would estimate 90% of games, you see losing team arguing and blaming each other at end. This a FACT, we all see it every day. Riot LITERALLY believes trashing your own teammates in game is not toxic in and of itself, and has a high threshold of tolerance for this behavior. You can even go beyond the ingame report system and get live chats and others on the line, they literally do NOTHING but justify whatever original action they took.

Riot has done NOTHING to prevent pregame schenanigans. Everyone has probably at one point or another had this experience: Player gets auto'd to support, doesn't want to play support, and doesn't want to dodge either. So they either ban main of someone else in queue, or take ridiculous choice to try and convince someone else to take the dodge, or just plain ignore all the roles and do what they want all game. This could EASILY be solved by offering a detailed dodge option. Example: Player loads, bans my main, wants jg. I would HAPPILY dodge right there and take my own five minute ban, if there was any way at all to report the player in question obviously sabotaging entire game from start. But of course there is no option for that.

The funniest part of the main bans is the result: you are often stuck playing a champ you are not as good with, in a rank you are not really prepared for with that champ. This then results in ENTIRE TEAM flaming you, telling you you suck, to go kill yourself, etc. Then you are literally the bad guy and getting reported, because no way to dodge and report original instigator.

I got so fed up with it last night I stopped in game to file a Better Business Bureau complaint. Game before we lost (and through zero fault of mine, top score by a mile), a buddy and his duo partner loaded into next queue with me. Immediately shown in text' we are doomed' ' we lost' 'rip' then one of them bans my main. Riot has explained to me in detail that they expected the following from me:

  1. I should have dodged to avoid this scenario even though two other players harrassing through two games (victim takes penalty)
  2. I should have played it out and spent entire game being flamed by entire team (victim takes penalty).

LIterally not cooperating with targeted harrassment wasn't even an option, and my account was banned. I have time stamps, I filed BBB complaint before ban, supervisor stood by ban even with clear text from other players confirming main ban was malicious.

Riot's attitude really does come down to 'boys will be boys' and they claim nothing they can do about it.

This is patently false.

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes

More by A Cynical Asian

Lux feels oppressive in bot lane. Please don't hate me.
Gameplay26 comments
11
votes
A clearer definition of toxicity
Player Behavior14 comments
4
votes
Instant Feedback system adjustments
Player Behavior18 comments
3
votes
Community thoughts on emote taunting (and I guess ping spamming and BMing in general)
Player Behavior12 comments
2
votes
Preparation for ranked (or rather, the lack thereof)
Gameplay2 comments
1
votes
ESports schedule timezone
Esports2 comments
1
votes