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Jim Butcher on Writing, and why the lore changes show Riot is bad at it.

Godwyn·9/6/2014, 6:51:37 PM·10 votes·1,624 views

While working a long shift last night, this occurred to me, and I hope to get it properly fleshed out in post before I go in for another shift. It goes back to a discussion Jim Butcher (well known fantasy/urban fantasy author) said about how the Codex Alera came about, and his views on what makes a good story. His argument was that a good writer could make a good story with the most overused central concept. Execution was more important than initial premise. The other side argued that a strong premise made a good story even if a lousy writer.

Quote in full "How did you come up with the original idea for CODEX ALERA? We’ve heard rumours that it involved a bet on whether you could combine the Roman empire and Pokémon… is that true? The bet was actually centered around writing craft discussions being held on the then-new Del Rey Online Writers’ Workshop, I believe. The issue at hand was central story concepts. One side of the argument claimed that a good enough central premise would make a great book, even if you were a lousy writer. The other side contended that the central concept was far less important than the execution of the story, and that the most overused central concept in the world could have life breathed into by a skilled writer. It raged back and forth in an ALL CAPITAL LETTERS FLAMEWAR between a bunch of unpublished writers, and finally some guy dared me to put my money where my mouth was, by letting him give me a cheesy central story concept, which I would then use in an original novel. Me being an arrogant kid, I wrote him back saying, “Why don’t you give me TWO terrible ideas for a story, and I’ll use them BOTH.”" from http://www.fantasyliterature.com/author-interviews/jim-butcher/ 9/6/2014

Just as a note, the multiple volume series spawned by that bet and written by Jim Butcher sold quite well.

This feels exactly like what is going on with the lore now. The Riot lore teams is full of lousy writers who think if they can change the material they have to work with, it will somehow make what they are writing better. (Hint: It won't). All the fans of the lore and the IoW, want good compelling stories written by decent writers, who can work within the constraints given. The new lore team feels they can't tell a good story with the IoW still existing, a posit that their inability to tell a good story is not at the fault of the IoW. As the old JoJ, character bios, and fanfics prove, there is plenty of material for good stories, all it takes is a skilled writer.

I have more to flesh out of this, but feel free to begin discussion. I will check on it when I return from work.

9 Comments

Sir ArmaMalum9/6/2014, 8:10:42 PM1 votes

Jim Butcher is my favorite writer, Dresden Files is a very good series. I suggest it to anyone here.

I do agree that the entire removal of the Institute of war was overkill, and that it would be possible to create endearing and deep lore around it.

However, I do also agree about the disconnect of the game and the story. The game's state (our game, here, in reality, not the IoW) held major plot development back. Prime example being death of champions, and the consequent removal of them from the game, would be a bad decision. Take Lucian, he cam to the League to kill Thresh and free his wife's soul, but we all know that will never happen because removing Thresh (or Lucian if he fell as well) based on simply lore would cause an uproar that would make the Lore debacle seem like a firecracker. So, the disconnect of the game and the lore imho is a good one and allows for progression and change while allowing the game to remain where it is.

That being said, while the Institute of War is the lore justification for the game's existence, just because the game is disconnected doesn't mean it's Runterran reflection has to be, imho. And honestly, if the IoW needed to be torn down for some awesome stories I don't really understand why it's being completely retconned and simply wiped away. A cool first try for this change could have been the IoW being torn down by the forces it contained and utter chaos spilling forth. Same end result, but done with the lore and providing a huge impact instead of being whisked away under a shelf. But of course, that's just my single opinion.

Sneak Dog9/6/2014, 9:10:09 PM1 votes

I agree with you. However, I do think certain premises are harder to write good stories out than others. What I think this is about is making the world generic to allow Riot to focus on champions instead of factions. They'll probably just write about how champions act in conflicts between factions instead of directly writing about the conflict itself. This is a more champion-focused approach and gives them an easier time writing.

Compare this to the JoJ in which the institute and the factions took up most of the space. Everything was always written with the institute in mind. I think this is partly a because a lowly newswriter isn't such a great perspective, but also partly because Riot didn't even try any other perspective while keeping the institute intact. I think there were great possibilities to write lore from a champion perspective in a world where the institute was a major faction instead of the core perspective.

I'd be fine with it though (just disappointed they couldn't do better, but alright, it's a game company) had I not already seen proof they not only retcon the institute, but also characters: new Trundle is completely unlike old Trundle (look at old lore, look at new in-game presentation, Freljord event is mentioned as a new lore thing, so it ought to be a valid example).

Angry Monster9/6/2014, 10:53:13 PM1 votes

So I am going to throw out some thoughts that I am not 100% sure about.

Stories have to end at some point. No story gets to go on forever. Currently League lore is the story that adds and nothing moves on. In theory champions are getting put in matches for some kind of point system currency to have influence in the world. This style could work if their was a map where regions power was reflective of wins.

Massive player video games very rarely have a true story. They tend to spin off stories, but are not the story in themselves. Games like wow where their is PVP is an example of this. They have books about the game that are not of the actual in game. Diablo on the other hand can make stories about the in game and be reflective since everyone in on the same side. Everyone is the hero for good so a forward story makes sense. (man i had to use blizzard titles). What matters is wither or not all the players are on the same side, in league we are players that play for many sides/factions.

Stories get rebooted. Some rioter mentioned the Wolverine story. I will raise you Spider-man, the whole Xmen universe, Batman, Superman, and the list goes on. New writers come and change what once was. They leave what was core and tell their version of the story.

The question is what is core to the story of league. Yes the champions are, but is their ties to a nation or Summoners? What about Cassiopeia screams Noxius or that she is Katernia's sister. Cass is a half woman snake, that is a killer that is her core identity. Everything else is fluff and can be pretty much changed and you lose nothing.

The JoJ was already using the path of independent to the game philosophy. Was Trundle taken out of the game cause he found the cure to his problem? If story matter to league they would of had to pull him out of the game at that point. This is another example of why PVP games can not have a consistent story line. The PVP never ends.

So stories must have a eventual ending if they are going to be good. Can league fill this with its current story line? Will the new story line avoid the pitfalls of the past? No clue.

Godwyn9/7/2014, 8:08:37 AM1 votes

@Sir Armamalum; There can be some disconnect and still have it attached and influence each other, perhaps every game doesn't have to be in the most recent time period as an easy example. In fact, doing so adds lots of potential for thematic matches. Imagine a custom map setting based off of the IoW champion timeline with characters automatically banned based on whether they had not yet joined, or have since left/died. Very few expect the game and the lore to always be 100% exact mirrors of each other. Every battle is not the battle for Ionia or Kalamanda. Every minor trade dispute between Demacia and Noxus won't impact lore much however the match goes.

I'm not even 100% sold that they can't semi-retire champions just as they do skins. Kill them off in the lore, and make them no longer available for purchase. This would never happen of course, but is an interesting thought exercise. And seeing someone play a champion that has been dead for years would always be neat, even more so than seeing a discontinued skin in the loading screen.

@Sneak Dog; That is a large part of my resistance to their decision as well. The general direction of Riot lately, in retconning and changing champions, lore, splash art, skins often not for the better at all. It feels that the lore team are using the IoW as an excuse for why they can't write compelling stories in Runeterra. Many people do so successfully. There is so much that can be done with the established lore at their disposal, I am inherently leery of anything they feel the need to destroy it for.

@Kchaosrei; I would argue that (for the moment), the champions ties to their factions and the IoW and summoners are THE core part of the lore. That is exactly the problem with destroying it. Sona speaks directly to the summoner. The Romeo/Juliet potential of Garen and Katarina. The summoning/creation of Fidd/Morg/Kayle/Brand/more. I love Cassiopeia's original story. Tragic but deserved misfortune befalls Katarina's less militant but more suave and diplomatic sister. I have been wanting a buff like many linked champions have now when they are on the same team. Sisters!

Though I did realize at work today that all of these threads, no matter how true, amount to no more than whining. The lore team has already told the people that care about the current lore that it is to be no more. It is clear the lore team doesn't want to, or is unable to, tell the kinds of stories we want. Even if their decision to outright destroy several years of established lore could be prevented, they would still never put out anything we want, because they have clearly shown they want entirely different things from what the followers of the lore want.

And that is also some of what bothers me about this. The majority of their playerbase does not care about the lore at all. We are a minority. So why do something so drastic, that negatively impacts so many, when to the majority it is irrelevant?