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A couple questions for you Riot:

Niyumi··1 votes·1,090 views

First: Why does it take you half a year or more to rework a champion in a game as simple as League?

  • An amateur team could actually do the work in like a week, with just one person per department. You're literally making one model, and 5 abilities. This game isn't graphically complex (it's not bad, but it's not hyper-realistic and complicated), you only have two tiny maps, there's a limited amount of QA, and writing a few paragraphs doesn't take 3-5 months -- especially when you already have an IP to work off of.

  • You claim to care so much about balance and the quality of your game, yet you refuse to rework the champions that lack counterplay and look / feel atrocious compared to any more modern champions. Akali Caitlyn Chogath Fiddlesticks Irelia Pantheon for a few examples of champs in dire need of reworks. Instead, you rework champions that have a super low playerbase in the hopes that newer players will be gullible enough to buy skins and all that.

Second: How in the world can you claim you care about balance and quality above all else, even money?

  • You claim to care so much, yet just about everything you do shows the opposite:

  • Ignoring PBE feedback on changes that actually ruined the game, going through with changes anyway.

  • Showing preferential treatment and having double standards for a lot of champions (Lee and Riven come to mind, among others).

  • Buffing champions that absolutely don't need it just because they have a skin in the near future (Lux, Win Nhao, Zyra, Jinx, Riven, Brand, etc.)

  • Ignoring champions that legitimately need nerfs, or even coming up with excuses on why you don't want to nerf them, just because they're popular and making money, but nerfing non-FOTM champs in a heartbeat with no hesitation.

  • ... and so much more.

  • On a similar note to above, you claim to care about quality before even money, but you're not willing to spend any money to pay people to rework champions in a timely manner. Instead, you make a skeleton of a skeleton crew, with people working maybe an hour a day before calling it quits and going back to developing skins and whatever else makes you money.

  • If you ask anyone that isn't thumbing your ass, they'll say the balance right now is abysmal, and has been for a while. You continually nerf AP champions while buffing AD champions, and you wonder why we have a 'lethality or lose' meta, where not even tanks (outside of outliers that need to be nerfed) can compete because of all the armor pen and ridiculous damage everyone has.

  • You have champions with 30%+ playrates and 53%+ winrates, yet you give them a microscopic lovetap, whereas we look at Nidalee who has a sub-50% winrate and a very low pickrate, but was gutted so hard she can hardly compete anymore... and you talk about balance. You buff a champion like Win Nhao, who was already one of the top champions in the highest ELO in the game, and wonder why people freaked out about it? You even said that Lee Sin is admittedly too strong, but won't recieve any significant nerfs because of his "contribution to competitive" and yet you have the gall to say you care about more than just money?

  • You balance around what's most profitable, instead of what's most fair. When a champion becomes FOTM and is hard carrying even competitive, you won't nerf the obvious issue (Take Ashe, for example. Her issue was her Q and passive, yet you nerf everything but her Q and passive, and all it good.), instead doing little placebo nerfs until people forget about then (-3 AD on Vayne, problem solved!). You even go so far as to call ADCs weak, when they're one of the strongest classes right now (they just happen to be profitable right now).

  • You claim that you put a lot of effort into making sure that it's not the champ that determines the outcome of your game, but the player behind it... yet I can look at team comps and know which team will win 95% of the time.

I know you won't answer. If you did, then you'd expose all your lies and greed to the whales you covet so much and trick into throwing money at you. I like how Beck talks about how bad gaming was, and then turns around and creates one of the worst companies for gaming. Has he always been a liar? Though I guess it's a success in the business world full of scummy, disgusting people. So, whatever. Don't know why I bother.

I wish I could go back in time to when gaming was still enjoyable, before it became all about money.

18 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Ahem. Just gonna wreck your first point.

Riot has released champions two to three weeks apart from each other.

Example: In 2010 Riot released 24 champions. That's about 2 a month.

They can certainly make champions quickly if they wished, but now they are more interested in quality over quantity.

Niyumi1 votes

And I'm goinna wreck your point: An amateur team can, and many have(and I've done it as an INTERN), make the same quality models and animations as Riot does in a week or less.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I highly doubt this. I am not going to take the word of some random guy over the internet who can easily lie when I have a website that tells me how quickly champs can be made.

Not to mention your estimation of time is a little off.

Just FYI, don't say "OMG YI SHREDS ME IN A SECOND" when you post a video with it and he fights you for 7 seconds.

Therefore I'm a little reluctant to believe your "I can make a LoL quality champ in a week lol." claim.

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

I highly doubt this. I am not going to take the word of some random guy over the internet who can easily lie when I have a website that tells me how quickly champs can be made.

Okay, so, think about it logically then. How long do you think it'd take to make one, SINGULAR model in a cartoony fashion, and rig it up with very basic movements? Assuming you actually spend the whole 8 hour work day doing it, maybe a day and a half to two days.

Just FYI, don't say "OMG YI SHREDS ME IN A SECOND" when you post a video with it and he fights you for 7 seconds.

The Rammus video? I was complaining that a champion entirely built around AAs EASILY beat the champion that counters AAs. Because, you know, tanks are meaningful and all that, when literally any AA spammer can just one shot you for no good reason (or out-sustain your damage and win regardless of how much they fuck up).

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Okay, so, think about it logically then. How long do you think it'd take to make one, SINGULAR model in a cartoony fashion, and rig it up with very basic movements? Assuming you actually spend the whole 8 hour work day doing it, maybe a day and a half to two days.

Alright, then release it and watch how buggy it is because you spent no time playtesting it to make sure the major bugs were ironed out. Also I wasn't aware you could come up with a champ concept from scratch in a week AND create the model, complete with textures and everything.

The Rammus video? I was complaining that a champion entirely built around AAs EASILY beat the champion that counters AAs. Because, you know, tanks are meaningful and all that, when literally any AA spammer can just one shot you for no good reason (or out-sustain your damage and win regardless of how much they fuck up).

But we are talking about the time you said it took, which was a complete lie.

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, then release it and watch how buggy it is because you spent no time playtesting it to make sure the major bugs were ironed out. Also I wasn't aware you could come up with a champ concept from scratch in a week AND create the model, complete with textures and everything.

Now, assuming you give half a fuck about what you're doing, the first iteration wouldn't have that many bugs. But, in today's society, we frown on proper work ethic, and half the shit that comes out isn't even worth the effort it took to make it.

And, like I said, the IP is already there. You have a universe to draw from. You have themes to draw from. Coming up with an idea is easy from there. Models are easy to make, ESPECIALLY cartoony ones, and so are textures.

But we are talking about the time you said it took, which was a complete lie.

Nowhere did I say he killed me instantly. I said he killed me in a few seconds and absolutely destroyed me despite me "countering" him.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Not to mention you said rig up to create "basic" movements. In case you haven't noticed champs to day don't do basic movements.

But of course you wouldn't notice that because apparently everything they do is cheap and half-done. They take the time to make sure they don't end up like this in the first place.

Also cut the crap. If you were half the programmer I am, or even half of any kind of programmer you know that version 1.0 NEVER has no bugs. Bugsquashing is part of the development process for a reason.

Also, in no culture does a "few seconds" equal 7 seconds.

Also who the heck told you Rammus counters Yi? Yi counters tanks, it's common knowledge. And you've said you've played with Challengers?

DaNinad1 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention you said rig up to create "basic" movements. In case you haven't noticed champs to day don't do basic movements.

But of course you wouldn't notice that because apparently everything they do is cheap and half-done. They take the time to make sure they don't end up like this in the first place.

Also cut the crap. If you were half the programmer I am, or even half of any kind of programmer you know that version 1.0 NEVER has no bugs. Bugsquashing is part of the development process for a reason.

Also, in no culture does a "few seconds" equal 7 seconds.

Also who the heck told you Rammus counters Yi? Yi counters tanks, it's common knowledge. And you've said you've played with Challengers?

Rammus - thornmail, randuins, tabis. I'd like to see a yi counter that, unless he's extremely fed.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

The Yi in OP's game was fed.

DaNinad1 votes

{quoted}

The Yi in OP's game was fed.

Then no shit he can wreck you

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

That's what I said. He still doesn't get it.

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention you said rig up to create "basic" movements. In case you haven't noticed champs to day don't do basic movements.

Really? Their faces don't move beyond maybe eyelids and the chin, the fingers don't have each digit moving, the wrist is lazily rigged, and walk cycles aren't all that hard to do. You have arms, legs (and the joints in them), and maybe one or two points in the spine, a couple on the head... that's not a lot of rigging to do. Now, if you had to render full facial movement and complex joints, maybe it'd take a while to get it to look good, but you're using simple movement in League because of the POV.

But of course you wouldn't notice that because apparently everything they do is cheap and half-done. They take the time to make sure they don't end up like this in the first place.

"They take time [for quality]" -- remember my post about Arcade Ahri? They made an entirely new model for that skin, but didn't even bother making the wrist not distort like I was complaining about. What kind of quality is that?

Also cut the crap. If you were half the programmer I am, or even half of any kind of programmer you know that version 1.0 NEVER has no bugs. Bugsquashing is part of the development process for a reason.

Depending on your work ethic, version 1.0 could have thousands of bugs, or a few dozen. Judging from what you say, I think I know what kind of work ethic you've got. And I did programming for... 6 years in school, and another year in college, as well as a bit of intern work. So, yeah, 1.0 always has bugs. But if you actually put in a bit of that evil effort stuff, you have far less.

Also, in no culture does a "few seconds" equal 7 seconds.

Couple = 2-3, Few = 3-6ish.

Also who the heck told you Rammus counters Yi? Yi counters tanks, it's common knowledge. And you've said you've played with Challengers?

Rammus counters people who AA. It's the only thing he does. Yet, Yi and ADCs still win thanks to lifesteal and all kinds of bullshit items.

And, yeah, I've played against challengers. Doesn't mean I'm challenger myself.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

{quoted}

Really? Their faces don't move beyond maybe eyelids and the chin, the fingers don't have each digit moving, the wrist is lazily rigged, and walk cycles aren't all that hard to do. You have arms, legs (and the joints in them), and maybe one or two points in the spine, a couple on the head... that's not a lot of rigging to do. Now, if you had to render full facial movement and complex joints, maybe it'd take a while to get it to look good, but you're using simple movement in League because of the POV.

Old Engine, limited in what they can do. Not to mention the POV wouldn't even show extreme detail so it isn't needed. It would likely put extra strain on the engine.

"They take time [for quality]" -- remember my post about Arcade Ahri? They made an entirely new model for that skin, but didn't even bother making the wrist not distort like I was complaining about. What kind of quality is that?

Not at all.

Depending on your work ethic, version 1.0 could have thousands of bugs, or a few dozen. Judging from what you say, I think I know what kind of work ethic you've got. And I did programming for... 6 years in school, and another year in college, as well as a bit of intern work. So, yeah, 1.0 always has bugs. But if you actually put in a bit of that evil effort stuff, you have far less.

I was this close to asking you what exactly you learned from your programming courses, until I started to read what you said again, and realized that I had fundamentally misunderstood what you said.

I taught myself programming you see, and for me, version 1.0 was the version that results merely from making sure everything connects to each other. It was my love of adding numbers to versions that caused me to make new versions to software that I ironed bugs out of, frequently having the release version be a 1.6.22.5 Version.

But then I remembered that when you and professional circles say 1.0. you mean the release version.

In this instance we are in accordance, I wouldn't dream of knowingly releasing a product with bugs in it. It was my mistake in understanding your meaning.

In this case I agree, for I in actuality have a strong work ethic, and it was mere semantics that ruined this part of the encounter.

Couple = 2-3, Few = 3-6ish.

But it was Seven and you said "Few", but whatever.

Rammus counters people who AA. It's the only thing he does. Yet, Yi and ADCs still win thanks to lifesteal and all kinds of bullshit items.

You forget that Rammus was hard nerfed a while ago due to countering AA-oriented champions because of an age where they were strong and they saw lots of play. He hasn't gotten rebuffed since to my knowledge, so he isn't all that great at his job anymore.

And, yeah, I've played against challengers. Doesn't mean I'm challenger myself.

I'm just going to question the mmr of these "challengers." Were they all Nightblue?

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

Old Engine, limited in what they can do. Not to mention the POV wouldn't even show extreme detail so it isn't needed. It would likely put extra strain on the engine.

Exactly, so they don't need to spend a whole lot of time doing rigging, and they don't need to do a lot of special modeling for moving facial features.

I was this close to asking you what exactly you learned from your programming courses, until I started to read what you said again, [...] for me, version 1.0 was the version that results merely from making sure everything connects to each other.

Yeah, I would call 1.0 the version that I give to someone else and call it a finished product (though, depending on what it is, 1.0 may not be the final version). Anything before is like 0.x.x.

But it was Seven and you said "Few", but whatever.

I talk weird. So what.

You forget that Rammus was hard nerfed a while ago due to countering AA-oriented champions because of an age where they were strong and they saw lots of play. He hasn't gotten rebuffed since to my knowledge, so he isn't all that great at his job anymore.

Well, Rammus can still shit on ADCs, but the absurd amount of lifesteal makes him next to useless, since they heal for more than he can do. So, early game he's fine, but late game when everyone has 20-50% lifesteal and 50%+ armor pen, he can't do much of anything

I'm just going to question the mmr of these "challengers." Were they all Nightblue?

Two were Rioters, a couple were some random people I never ran into again, another was a friend of a friend (in a custom game) -- all were in norms (I have a really high norms MMR) except for one of the Rioters (was a community event thing, and they played their main and played to win (both teams had high ELO people and low ELO people)) and the friend of a friend.

The only name I remember is Riot Rainslight. Came out of lane 15/2. :P

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

And that equals to Azir on-released. Remember the number of bugs he received due to the lack of testing? Plus the obnoxious laning phase he has & now has to be reworked?

Also includes Mordekaiser 's shitty rework as well.

Niyumi1 votes

See, that's what you get in an F2P cash grab though. Half-assed shit that should be laughed out of the industry. But, no, we welcome it with open arms these days.

Drakavoid1 votes

I'll just reply for the sake of it:

  1. Reworking isn't that easy. It's not only the gameplay that gets changed, visuals and lore are also worked on. First they have to figure out who ABSOLUTELY needs a rework asap, there are lots of champs that need it but some need it more than others. Also the game play has to fit well. If you want them to finish it within a week then we'd be on our 16th Ryze rework.
  2. Of course popular champions are prioritized in balamcing than non metas. Because the chances of facing popular champs is higher, thus bigger impact. Even tho Karthus is one of the lowest pick rates in the game, they nerfed his W because even tho he isn't popular or op, but his wall gave no counterplay at all, so even no popular champs need to be tuned down. And popular champs aren't always op, for example, when illaoi was released a lot of people complained that she's op, riot buffed her because she still needed the buff. Most of the time when people call a champion "op" it just means they don't know how to countrt play them
Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

I'll just reply for the sake of it:

  1. Reworking isn't that easy. It's not only the gameplay that gets changed, visuals and lore are also worked on. First they have to figure out who ABSOLUTELY needs a rework asap, there are lots of champs that need it but some need it more than others. Also the game play has to fit well. If you want them to finish it within a week then we'd be on our 16th Ryze rework.

Yes, it is easy, especially since the concept is already there, and you're just modernizing it. Lore takes a few hours at most, and the visuals take a day or two at most. QA takes a day or two, and wow, you're done! And they already have a big list of everyone that needs a rework.

  1. Of course popular champions are prioritized in balamcing than non metas. Because the chances of facing popular champs is higher, thus bigger impact.

So, Jhin is near a 50% pickrate, with an above average winrate. If we're going to actually balance him, we'd nerf him, right? Since we're playing with him every other game, you'd assume so, right? But he's making money right now, and that's what Riot cares about. However, no one ever sees champions like Fiddles, Urgot, Galio, etc., and Riot ignores them because they don't have a lot of income potential.

And popular champs aren't always op, for example, when illaoi was released a lot of people complained that she's op, riot buffed her because she still needed the buff. Most of the time when people call a champion "op" it just means they don't know how to countrt play them

Illaoi was never popular. Whales couldn't play her, despite her being absurdly strong, so Riot buffs her to make her easier. She was already strong, now she's kind of broken, but Riot ignores her because whales can play her now.

And, remind me the last time Lee was weak, or Yasuo was weak, or Zed was weak, or Riven was weak.

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