Limely and Drevarius on League's social systems

RiotRiot NaKyle··13 votes·23,937 views

Hey all,

To share some insight into the PBE release of persistent chat rooms, Limely (product owner and designer) and Drevarius (designer) dished about the past, present and future of how we hit the Rift with friends. Read on to learn more about where we’ve been and where we’re headed with League’s social systems. We’ll hang out to answer questions below.

NaKyle:

So, persistent chat rooms hit the PBE earlier today. How do you expect players to use them?

Drevarius: We expect groups of friends to use persistent chat rooms to stay connected, organize games, and potentially get to know friends of friends. Having a bit of chat history also makes it easier to have some context for the conversation when you log on and join the chat room.

Limely: We also put moderation tools in there so players can have some control and keep out unwanted guests like spam bots and sketchy dudes. Ultimately, this stuff is pretty overdue, but we’re still excited to get it out the door.

**NaKyle: ** Cool. So, bigger picture: “Social systems” is a big and kinda vague term. What’s it mean to you? What are some of your guiding principles for building social systems and features for League?

Drevarius: Social systems are essentially features that connect players and encourage them to experience League together. This is still a big and vague description, but there are a lot of components that contribute to social, like finding IRL friends (Facebook friend discovery), learning more about the friends you already have (player hovercards), and sweetening the pot for playing together (party rewards).

Limely: These features all individually add value, but they’re pretty narrow and isolated in terms of the problems they solve. We want to start looking at “social systems” as something more cohesive. We want to get to a point where the whole suite of features work together to do all the things Drevarius mentioned and more.

That’s our big picture goal, but the actual implementation starts with some tedious overhauling of existing and foundational systems. That work was and still is time-consuming and almost invisible to players, which sucks. The strategy moving forward is to release larger features piece by piece, that way we ship stuff at a better cadence and iterate based on timely feedback from players. Persistent chat rooms, a pretty modest system on its own, is an example of one of those smaller, quicker steps.

NaKyle: How do small steps like persistent chat rooms feed into that broader vision for social systems?

Limely: Well, we’ve tried to make it easier to connect players with their friends, but we’ve learned that sometimes it takes more than that to get friends actually playing together. If you have no context as to the type of player your new friend is--jungler/silver/Warwick main--you might never go to the trouble of finding out if your playstyles are compatible, let alone jump into a game together.

Drevarius: It’s about more than providing playstyle context through hovercards though. Party Rewards get people playing together through bonus IP, but that doesn’t mean the friendship will stick and those players will keep playing together. So the strategic approach Limely’s talking about needs to include ways of finding players that you want to keep playing with.

NaKyle: You mentioned friends of friends. Do you see those connections as especially important?

**Limely: ** Yeah, we do. You’re more likely to have things in common with friends of friends than outright strangers. And besides that, when we help you connect those dots, you can play together without that mutual friend.

**NaKyle: ** Hopefully the mutual friend doesn’t get too jealous. What are some of the bigger picture social challenges you’d like to tackle in the future?

Limely: I think the big one we’re aiming at is giving players a reason to strengthen the bonds they have with current connections, maybe even helping them become genuine friendships. We think there’s something compelling about a group identity as well. That group identity can attract strangers who share similar playstyles, giving players even more people to play with.

Drevarius: We also want to make sure that the friends we’re helping you make are friends you can actually have a good time playing with. That mix of group identity, similar playstyle, and a mutual friend or two could be really compelling. When I group up with friends, I feel like I’m ready to take on the world--we want more players to experience that feeling.

The three of us will hang around the comments for a bit. Hit us with your questions about League’s social systems and look for persistent chat rooms to reach live after a bit of testing!

39 Comments

Humpelstilzche12 votes

I have a few questions about this (in addition to my other post .), especially about the user limit for these chats:

  • Why do these chats have such a low user limit? Technical reasons? What is the thought process behind that decision?
  • How will you deal with people who complain about their chatroom name being taken (for example for groups that already exist and are known under this name)?
  • Is it, theoretically (!), possible to increase the user limit for certain groups?
  • Is it, theoretically (!), possible to increase the amount of chatrooms you can administer?

I am asking because this will have an impact on several projects of the Volunteers. For example we have a gaming community called "Liga der Gentlemen" (=League of Gentlemen) which is focused on good behavior (=you flame once and you get kicked). This group is kind of successfull (>5000 members) but always had problems with the client chatrooms. The chatrooms are the main tool to find people for a match of League, but are often disturbed by trolls, scammers or banned members who seek revenge. I guess it's understandable that moderated private chatrooms are sort of our holy grail, we wanted this for years and it's the solution for our most urgent problems. But given our size of over 5000 members these chatrooms won't help us as much as they could with a higher limit. Of course we don't need 5000 spots (some of these 5000 are inactive and the remaining ones are not necessarily online at the same time), but at least 300-500 would be really nice.

The same goes for other projects like our "New player mentoring" and I am sure there are a lot more community projects that would profit from bigger private chatrooms. I am sure you guys have your reasons for limiting the numbers....but I would like to know them if you are allowed to tell me. I hate not understanding stuff :(

Greetings from the german volunteer team ! (imagine 60 people waving at you)

edit: Almost forgot to mention that also the european Battleground Tournaments would be a lot easier to manage by Riot and the Adjudicators if we had bigger private chatrooms (I think they would need 130 spots).

RiotLimely1 votes

{quoted}

I have a few questions about this (in addition to my other post .), especially about the user limit for these chats:

  • Why do these chats have such a low user limit? Technical reasons? What is the thought process behind that decision?

It is currently for technical reasons - we are hoping these will be popular and want to make sure we can handle the load. The plan is to slowly increase this number once we are live and keep an eye on performance so that we can take any necessary steps to increase our capacity as needed.

{quoted}

  • How will you deal with people who complain about their chatroom name being taken (for example for groups that already exist and are known under this name)?

We are working with the different Riot regional offices to identify groups that already exist so that we can reserve those names. On live they will show up as reserved, but we have asked the regional offices to give us as much information as they can about the group, so that we can free up the name(s) for the appropriate (i.e. verified) community members. Please talk to your local Riot community representative if you have concerns about existing groups slipping through the cracks.

{quoted}

  • Is it, theoretically (!), possible to increase the user limit for certain groups?
  • Is it, theoretically (!), possible to increase the amount of chatrooms you can administer?

We will not be able to increase the user limit for certain groups - that number is controlled by region/shard. Similarly the number of chatrooms that you can own is a number that is not configurable.

Daen3 votes

So, overall: This has been my single biggest desire within the League of Legends social atmosphere for years, and it's incredibly exciting to me that we may finally have a legitimate place to maintain clans and other types of communities. That being said, I have some questions:

Social Systems

  1. What are some of the projects you are interested in pursuing under the umbrella of social systems?

  2. Would something like player volunteer systems (e.g. Emissaries of the League) be part of your wheelhouse?


Persistent Chat Rooms

  1. Does the name for a chat room need to be unique from all other chat rooms, or does the player login identifier suffice?

  2. What will happen to existing chat rooms with established userbases and purpose?

  3. Will the persistent chat rooms still be found by knowing the name and typing it in, or would the display name of the creator be used instead?

  4. Will there be a way to browse persistent chat rooms?

  5. Is the user limit the same as current chat rooms?


Thanks!

RiotDrevarius1 votes

PERSISTENT CHAT ROOMS

  1. Yes, names must be unique.

  2. Existing public chat rooms will be unaffected for now - we will have improvements for public chat functionality in the future.

  3. These new persistent chat rooms are private for now - you must be invited to get access.

  4. We are looking into this.

  5. We are starting testing conservatively with 50 max members.

Limely will be answering the social systems questions :D.

Daen1 votes
  1. Gotcha, thanks,

  2. My apologies, I wasn't specific; I am referring to existing private chat rooms run by players for certain purposes. For example, I run a chat room dedicated to the Riot Games hiring process and am interested as to what may or may not happen with it moving forward.

  • I see the following answer from Limely on the PBE thread:
  • "We built this feature separate from the current public chatrooms so that we wouldn't disrupt existing communities. :3 We do have plans to build tools to be able to support them in the future, but until then we will be leaving them alone."
  1. Ah, I see. Is the eventual goal to allow them to be more accessible if the owner wants it that way, down the line? The way this is described it seems like I would need to personally add every single member of the chat room to my friends list in order to allow them to join.

  2. Sounds good!

  3. I see. This is obviously pretty far in the future, but are there any plans to make this chat room functionality something that can support clans created by players? Or is it more along the lines of a friend hub as the feasible endgame?

RiotDrevarius1 votes
  1. To add to that - if you would prefer to have a truly private room, rather than relying on security through obscurity, I would encourage you to move to the new persistent chats when they are available :D.

  2. You can promote other members of the chat to have invite privileges as well, so that you don't need to be around for every invite.

  3. The goal is to continue expanding our support for all types of social groups.

Daen1 votes
  1. I'm going more for the fact we'd like to be able to be public, so that we wouldn't have to rely on obscurity as our only method of security. ;)

  2. Gotcha.

  3. Fair enough. :)

RiotLimely1 votes

{quoted}

Social Systems

  1. What are some of the projects you are interested in pursuing under the umbrella of social systems?

  2. Would something like player volunteer systems (e.g. Emissaries of the League) be part of your wheelhouse?

  1. League of Legends is so much better with friends that we are exploring several different methods of encouraging and facilitating social play but everything is in very early stages so nothing more to share yet! :3

  2. We are aiming in the future to be able to empower communities and potentially individuals who are interested in making League a healthier environment for learning. We are not doing anything directly with player volunteer systems but are looking instead into what tools we can provide to make this a better experience.

Daen1 votes
  1. Haha fair enough! I appreciate the answer regardless, and definitely agree that League of Legends is better with friends. :P

  2. I see. My expectation is that this isn't something on which you can elaborate, which is fine. Thanks though!

RiotLimely2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Haha fair enough! I appreciate the answer regardless, and definitely agree that League of Legends is better with friends. :P

  2. I see. My expectation is that this isn't something on which you can elaborate, which is fine. Thanks though!

Your'e welcome! Sorry I couldn't say more, but hopefully sooooooooooooooooooon........ :3

AlexWC2 votes

{quoted}

  1. League of Legends is so much better with friends that we are exploring several different methods of encouraging and facilitating social play but everything is in very early stages so nothing more to share yet! :3

  2. We are aiming in the future to be able to empower communities and potentially individuals who are interested in making League a healthier environment for learning. We are not doing anything directly with player volunteer systems but are looking instead into what tools we can provide to make this a better experience.

Hey dudes!! I want to transform the way League of Legends players interact and enrich the community experience to go beyond online interaction. I'm very happy to hear these two things!

Also, HI Nathaniel! :)

RiotRiot NaKyle2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Firefly Captain,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=vekgp8za,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2015-09-17T00:15:28.762+0000)

Hey dudes!! I want to transform the way League of Legends players interact and enrich the community experience to go beyond online interaction. I'm very happy to hear these two things!

Also, HI Nathaniel! :)

Hi Alex! Glad you're pumped!

Humpelstilzche5 votes

We are not doing anything directly with player volunteer systems but are looking instead into what tools we can provide to make this a better experience.

If you ever want insight to volunteer system, you are very welcome to talk to us. I am a Senior Emissary of the League in Germany, we currently have about 60 volunteers in Germany and it is going REALLY well. The english EU volunteer program is growing as well and I think also the spanish one. I know that NA Rioters always seem to feel uncomfortable about volunteers, but I want to ask you for a favor: Please don't just write us off. Please don't just think "Nah, we are not doing anything with volunteers" without seriously thinking about it and having a closer look at Volunteer programs at Riot that already work very well. Chatrooms are a very good example for this. There is A LOT we could do with proper chatrooms and it would be really good if you wouldn't forget that we, the volunteers, actually exist and can help you make a difference for the community!

You can reach us via Riot Kengen.

Daen1 votes

Humpelstilzche, would it be possible for me to chat with you one on one a bit? I know that's a weird request, especially coming from a random person, but I'm really interested in gaining some insight into how the volunteer systems work in EUW. If you don't have a NA account I'll look into creating an EUW one, or possibly something like Skype or what have you.

Please don't just write us off. Please don't just think "Nah, we are not doing anything with volunteers" without seriously thinking about it and having a closer look at Volunteer programs at Riot that already work very well.

I can't agree with this more. I've brought this up quite a few times over the past few years and the response is generally along the lines of that the NA team wants to improve the overall experience rather than setting up direct engagement resources with a more grassroots approach.

Here are some Rioter comments/threads you might find interesting, as far as the NA community team's perceptions are concerned:

Tamat discussing player moderators

Discussion about Community Managers and community impact

Humpelstilzche1 votes

You can contact me via Facebook or email And don't worry, it's not weird at all, i love to talk about these topics.

Thx for the two links, i'll have a look at them.

Daen1 votes

After lots of me being derpy I sent you an email. :)

Jungled2 votes

I really like this system. Good job guys!

SoundChaosDebug2 votes

The rare red post

MrLittleThor1 votes

Will there be a team checking on how people are using the system? Because from my many years on the internet I expect people to abuse their powers over a chatroom.

RiotLimely1 votes

{quoted}

Will there be a team checking on how people are using the system? Because from my many years on the internet I expect people to abuse their powers over a chatroom.

Player Support will have the tools it needs to be able to audit the chatroom activity (not just chat) as needed if problems arise and are reported. Hope this helps! :)

MrLittleThor1 votes

Follow-up question. Are chatrooms going to be staying the same size or increasing?

RiotDrevarius1 votes

We'll be starting at a max of 50 for persistent chats, while there are no changes to the current size of public chats (200).

We anticipate increasing the size of persistent chats over time as we gain a better understanding of their load on our system.

Möral Support1 votes

{quoted}

We'll be starting at a max of 50 for persistent chats, while there are no changes to the current size of public chats (200).

We anticipate increasing the size of persistent chats over time as we gain a better understanding of their load on our system.

Can we finally create and add our own chatrooms now too? It has been bugged for a while, but I have my own chatroom and I'm not able to delete it or save another.

RiotDrevarius1 votes

Yes - you can create and name your very own room! You are limited to owning one at a time, but it will always be there for you... until you decide to abandon it :( .

AscendedxBlade1 votes

Great work guys this might even bring back the coaching rooms they had in season 3 learned so much from them. also while i found a red post i wanted to as one quick question who does the balancing. i wanted to ask as they balance for the pro side if they are not challanger them-self how do they know it will work or be fair to the champ and the players.

DrCyanide1 votes

This might be slightly off topic, but I feel like the underlying tech is related, so I'm going to fire away.

Right now, it's common for me to make a group of fewer than 5 and queue up in normals. Sometimes we don't have the luxury of having voice chat open, so we have to rely on the group chat. Some problems I've noticed with said chat:

  • If you're typing something in the lobby, and the lobby owner hits Play, you lose everything you've typed. (including the chat history from the lobby)
  • If you're typing in the group chat and the accept notice comes up, you lose what you were typing when you get into champion select.
  • You can't use the group chat while you're at the champion select screen, as the group chat disappears. This is problematic if you need to continue a conversation or change a plan that doesn't involve your newly added teammates.
  • Your previous group chat is gone when someone dodges in champion select.
  • You lose the chat once again when someone declines the match or cancels the search.

In my mind, these chats should be more persistent than they are. By any chance are they covered by these changes?

RiotLimely2 votes

{quoted}

This might be slightly off topic, but I feel like the underlying tech is related, so I'm going to fire away.

Right now, it's common for me to make a group of fewer than 5 and queue up in normals. Sometimes we don't have the luxury of having voice chat open, so we have to rely on the group chat. Some problems I've noticed with said chat:

<SNIP> > > In my mind, these chats should be more persistent than they are. By any chance are they covered by these changes?

Not off topic at all; we agree that this experience is sub-par! :( We want to solve this problem for sure; however, it is not covered by these changes. We do have plans to fix this in the future, so rest assured it is most definitely on our To-Do list. :3

patmax171 votes

have you tried using private chat rooms? those same things bother me too, so usually when I know I'll play more than one game with my premade friends, i invite them to a private chatroom (right click -> invite to private chat): that's a chatroom that persists between games (and as far as I understood, it's what Limely and Drevarius are building upon?)

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Is there a Riot EuwKyle?

RiotRiot NaKyle1 votes

{quoted}

Is there a Riot EuwKyle?

There is not! It's just an amalgamation of my first name (Nathaniel) and my middle name (Kyle). One of my first leaders at Riot came up with it ^.^

wizard poker1 votes

You mention spambots as something unwanted, but what about bots that provide functionality to the community. Could the upgraded chat rooms come with developer tools to help make chatbots similar to Nightbot, Moobot, etc on Twitch?

The current group chat system currently uses XMPP, will this continue in the upgraded chats, and can we be given info on how to join them in 3rd party chat clients?

Lady Septimus1 votes

Can we report people who send offensive messages or are harassing us through messages now in client?

Garrotte1 votes

If these chatrooms begin to have success, is there a possibility of streamlining game invitations to members within the same chatroom, ala when you select what rank team you want to create a lobby for?

ComanderRex1 votes

As a collegiate organizer I'm so happy to see this! While we already have some methods, (like a TeamSpeak and FB group chat) this make the process even quicker in setting up matching or just grabbing some players for normals from our club.

Thanks for the update everyone!

Zorasterful1 votes

Looks great.

I haven't checked the PBE version because I don't have access so it may be fixed, but one thing has kept me from autojoining chat rooms in the past: the sounds from it. It's impossible to turn off sounds just from one chat room. I need/want sounds in the client overall (if I'm messaged, if I need to accept the game, etc.) but having a chat room where sounds play when players join or say something means my computer is often pinging a ton when I have no current interest in the chat room.

All that is a way of saying: Can we have the option to turn off sounds for chat rooms either in general or (even better) one by one?

Thank you!

RiotLimely1 votes

{quoted}

Looks great.

I haven't checked the PBE version because I don't have access so it may be fixed, but one thing has kept me from autojoining chat rooms in the past: the sounds from it. It's impossible to turn off sounds just from one chat room. I need/want sounds in the client overall (if I'm messaged, if I need to accept the game, etc.) but having a chat room where sounds play when players join or say something means my computer is often pinging a ton when I have no current interest in the chat room.

All that is a way of saying: Can we have the option to turn off sounds for chat rooms either in general or (even better) one by one?

Thank you!

These chat rooms are NOT going to have sound notifications. :D

That being said, we're looking into ways that we can notify the player that there are unread messages without doing anything as disruptive as flashing or playing a sound every single time since we do expect chat traffic to be higher in these rooms in the long run. :)

Daen1 votes

we're looking into ways that we can notify the player that there are unread messages without doing anything as disruptive as flashing or playing a sound every single time

What about something as simple as a small icon on the chat window that changes color depending on unread messages? Here's a mockup:

http://imgur.com/0SwCXIt

GhastlyGhoulMan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot NaKyle,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=vekgp8za,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-16T23:32:05.501+0000) We think there’s something compelling about a group identity as well. That group identity can attract strangers who share similar playstyles


So now all the Fizz and Riven mains can make their own group... and now the Teemo Cultists can spring forth from the shadows and begin their unholy conquest as a unified army...

Illuminati confirmed to work for Riot.

Declined1 votes

Pardon my (very) late arrival to this thread, but I have some questions, as it is very difficult to assimilate knowledge posted here and on PBE. ‹(^_^)› I'm slightly concerned that there will be a discussion on PBE only, that will prevent a large subset of players from participating.

##Info

  • "Persistent Chatrooms" have been/will be upgraded to "Clubs".
  • You're going to great lengths to make it part of your social system, using 'tags' which you can even flaunt in game.
  • You can own 1 chatroom and be part of 3 (subject to change)
  • User limit is subject to change depending on tech and server.
  • You plan on reserving room names.

##Uncertainty

  • Existing current chatrooms will (not) be changed¿?
  • Club sizes.
  • The amount of clubs you can be part of.
  • Clubs vs Chatrooms not enough info to determine differences if any???!
  • Tag sizes vs club name length

##Questions

  • Existing 'public' chatrooms, what is the current plan regarding those?
  • Is there or will there be more than one type of chatroom/club?
  • What will happen to lesser known chatrooms that are now an integrated part of the League community, such as pwr?
  • What will happen to the current chatrooms previously known as 'public' chatrooms?
    • ("Noob", "Looking for Group" and "Strategy" obviously it depends on the server what those room names are.
    • 'unchanged' = free to join, filled with spambots and no moderation.
    • You're planning on reserving names, does that mean we'll be unable to access those rooms until you sort out what to do with them?
  • Can I join a club as long as I know the name, or do I have to be invited?
  • Social factor: 'tags' what if the club relies heavily on security through obscurity COUGHpwrCOUGH and members of that club flaunt the tag, is there any way to disable that before it rolls out?
  • You want us to play with friends? That's great.... but a previous system you put in place contradicts that.
    • The Honor Initiative, if you have a ribbon and would like to maintain it, you need to gain honor regularly from a variety of sources or the value of the honor you receive decreases significantly if you receiving them from the same people over and over and over.
  • Will you add the swearfilter to room/club names?

Would it be possible for you to create an updated post/thread on this subject to elaborate and/or clarify some of these questions and uncertainties?

Sources Persistent Chats Upgraded Thread on PBE Persistent Chatrooms thread on PBE.

More from [ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

More by Riot NaKyle