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[Debate] Community Responsibility

Sir ArmaMalum··5 votes·862 views

Hello and welcome to my weekly (at least that's what I shoot for) [Debate] post. In this post series I outline a subject with LoL, and encourage people to post their own opinions and views about the subject. I hope to spark intelligent, civil and open-minded debate amongst the community. Just in case you don’t know how to do debate that here are the guidelines:

  • Don't dismiss anyone's opinions, opinions are never wrong, you just disagree with them.
  • You are free to disagree with someone always, but always do your best to explain why.
  • Don't get emotional, hopefully we're all adults here, keep it in 'debate' mode. No catfights allowed.
  • Feel free to disagree with my OP as well! I love feedback, but this is a debate thread, I'll respond where I can!
  • There is a comment reply cap! You only have a few tries to rebuttle and argue a point, so make them count!

#####Want to help decide what topic comes next? Well you can! Poll below!

http://i.imgur.com/2hZQZ7d.png
#Community Responsibility

In this context what I mean by ‘community responsibility’ is what expectations should we as a playerbase set for ourselves and to what end. In other words, with this week’s [Debate] I want to discuss what you think we as a community should and shouldn’t be expected to do. This is going to be a pretty broad topic, as this can range from behavior to knowledge to Riot criticisms and criticisms of ourselves to maturity to generally any action and way of thinking that can be solely our responsibility to do.

#http://i.imgur.com/2jznKyX.png The Question

What should we expect from our fellow players? Which of the expectations have we met or failed as a community?

#http://i.imgur.com/RNA0WwV.png My View

If I started all over and came into this game as a fresh new player I would expect quite a few things:

####A HELPFUL community
Not necessarily friendly, that’s naïve to expect out of everyone. But a fellow player willing to at least try to help another player out because they’re both playing a game they enjoy.

####A good dev-player relationship
The devs work to make the game better, and you want a better game. While both may approach it differently, I would expect both sides to give each other slack and room to maneuver in their own mediums.

####Trust
Anytime I come into a game I would like to be able to trust the community to do something expected. It doesn’t even have to be friendly or helpful. Imgur, for example has the random quirks like “Bannana for scale” or upvoting the best pun in the comments. This isn’t helpful and it isn’t practical in the slightest, but I can trust it to happen and expect it.

####A default ‘positive’
Something goes wrong? Servers are down? Someone came into rage in the forums? A new player would expect a community centralized about a game that is made to be a fun entertaining activity to try to help and remain positive about it, because there is no reason to panic or keep egging people on.

####Provide constructive feedback to dev decisions
Yes the occasional rage or blind devotion would be expected but I would assume if one had a point to make they would explain it, and if they didn’t they would stay silent and see what happened. Constructive does not mean supportive. Acceptable feedback could nothing but against a decision but it must be backed by explanation instead of mindless exclamations.

If we scored it off of my ‘rubric’ here my view of the current community would be a 1/5. 0.5 point for the first, 0.5 point for the second and a failure for the rest. Most of you probably saw that coming, as the general outlook for the community isn’t great, but I don’t make it a point to vocalize my disappointment often because I consider myself a part of the community and therefore obligated to the 4th point, a ‘default positive’. I believe with enough work, dedication, and friendly views that even one person can make a difference in a community of millions, and as an engineering student pointing out the problem isn’t enough. I have to do something about it, I have to implement a solution the best I can. That’s an expectation I hold to myself, and one I hope to be able to expect out the rest of you.

Addendum

Sorry for the short outline and long personal rant, but I really hope to hear some different viewpoints here as well as explanations of why you feel that way and why expectations have been met or failed. By all means I encourage questioning my view as well as others, be respectful, but always ask questions.

###Previous: Champion Archetypes---Running Out

###Next: New vs Old, Player Priority

###All [Debates]

24 Comments

Courier Eight5 votes

I honestly expect a lot more from the community in regards to hate speak. Hell, even raging I'll take with a grain of salt, but if I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone call someone a f----t, a n----r, or even a girl I wouldn't have to worry about student loans. The sexism, racism, and homophobia is really rampant in our community, and in our in-game chats.

We've set up a culture that actively excludes, belittles, and dehumanizes people; not even based on game skill, but by identity. My girlfriend, for example, loves the designs and the characters but would never want to actually play the game, because of the community. And I know you're never going to stop the 13-year-olds tossing out slurs like candy, but we as a community should be more pro-active about calling them out on it.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I completely agree with you! I'm sorry that your gf is having a hard time with the community, but I can't blame her too much. We're not all bad, but I can't in good conscience say the experience will be consistently pleasant.

Courier Eight3 votes

I definitely know we're not all bad! But there's enough negative voices. It's not that the whole community is bad, but we who are being wary about it should speak up when people are laying down the hate speak.

Do your part, and whatnot. :)

lorewise1 votes

Unfortunately it's rare that speaking up changes things. In the almost 20 years I've been playing multiplayer games I can count on one hand the amount of times I've spoken up and it had a positive outcome. That said it also depends on context.

For example people dropping obvious slurs know what they're doing, and they're doing it for a reason. But on a few occasions I've stopped to politely point out that using the phrase "that's gay" when meaning "that's dumb" is hurtful to some people and they should reconsider using it if they genuinely want to avoid hurting people or contributing to systemic homophobia.

lorewise1 votes

I may have to make a smurf forum account just so I can up-vote this multiple times. Unfortunately, I'd then have to ban myself because that would be in violation of my own standards.

You've created a vicious cycle with your sound reasoning and wonderful community spirit. For shame! /kidding

But really, this times infinity.

MackleDoge3 votes

Honestly, the only thing I expect out of a community is to let the company do their thing and enjoy the product. I don't expect good behavior, I don't expect reason or logic, I don't expect a good attitude, and I don't expect a very welcoming or positive experience on the forums or from the community. From my experience, people in general are extremely entitled and selfish, and I think those characteristics really shine through when they are allowed to semi-anonymously berate and insult one another and complain to their heart's content about the smallest thing. I'd say the majority of the players in the community just don't care about the forums, they don't care about the interaction, and they aren't concerned with the actual community aspect. People who are active on the forums tend to be the minority population from what I've seen and experienced and that minority tends to be split into three general groups: those who just want to troll around and have some fun interacting, those who want to do something positive and/or constructive with their forum time, and those who want to do nothing but bitch, complain, and flame anyone and anything. I'm not sure where that leaves us with community responsibility, because we end up with three actual very different communities that have to interact with one another. Personally, I just want to see a little more intelligence from the community and a little less whining.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I half agree, half disagree with you. I agree that the majority of the playerbase doesn't care about the forums, about the community and about each other, but I think it's less out of natural malice and more out of lack of insight.

My personal stand is the average player view the League community, and a lot of other gaming communities for that matter, as a constant group of strangers. Unless you know them IRL it's very easy for lack of thought to cause one to forget that they're interacting with another human being and not a username and a block of text. More often than not the ones running around flaming and harassing wouldn't even dream of doing that to someone's face but forget that when eye contact isn't a mandatory requirement to talk.

I think pro interviews, summoner interviews/videos and an increased personal input from people could help with that, putting faces behind the names. But I won't fool myself into thinking that'll happen overnight. So as you said, for right now at least, I'll settle for a little more intelligence and insight.

Angry Monster2 votes

I am going to hit each of your points.

A HELPFUL community

Not sure why you feel that people need to be helpful. That is putting a huge burden on people. Some may want to help and that is fine but why should i be helping every other player? I feel that we should not be passing bad information around but in general our skill puts us with those that don't need our help. I think the exent of expected player to player should be polite or neutral.

A good dev-player relationship

Bah don't care. I feel that at times riot listens to the people to much.(example annie skin thing)

Trust

I only trust to do what they think are in there best interest or that they think they are entitled to. I do not blindly trust anyone that i do not know.

A default ‘positive’

The thing is where can we complain then if everything is positive. The reality of the world there are as many positives as there is negatives. And some genuine criticism might be justified. I would like to see less trolling but some people think they are legit when trolling.

Provide constructive feedback to dev decisions

I think i already touched on this. Again what is constructive feed back. A negative toned post saying "riot did x wrong" is constructive. Riot tends to not like that kind of feed back but whatever. As long as a post is not rude, trolly or overtly emotional ex ( i lost my proms cause x is to strong.....) its should be considered as worthy input.

I really feel you expect to much here. Some of the problems with the community is completely riots fault. GD should be general talk league not everything under the sun. Any complains about balance should of gone to champion feed back. And most of GD should be move to OFF TOPIC. Riot failed to control and set reasonable standard. Most rioters only check GD enforcing this bad behavior.

Riot has shown that they really do not care about behavior since they out source it to the people to handle. Look at what the community mostly is. That should be your standard.

Angry Monster1 votes

lol i got down voted. I guess we are supposed to down vote when we do not agree. Man this debate thing is going to work well

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I guess? It was actually a downvote fairy across this entire thread, your response is a good one and it's 2:00am where I am so I was going to give it a legit response when I had my wits about me. I'm going around upvoting everything I can to counter.

Angry Monster1 votes

hate to tell you this. I down voted every post as a response( though i feeling childish for doing it). i am pretty sure i know who did it.(after all he down votes every one of my posts.) Not going to call out the poster though.

Please do put your counter post at some point.

lorewise1 votes

Man I don't know where you're looking but League has a very helpful community. You may not find that in every game but take a look at sites like Mobafire and their ilk, or do a search on Youtube for guides. It's been my experience that when a player asks for advice in games (outside of ranked) there's usually someone willing to answer their questions or even spend time in private chat helping new players, or players struggling to learn a champion they're unfamiliar with.

You can't get help if you never reach out you know? And a community is only going to be able to give if you're willing to invest in it as well.

Angry Monster2 votes

I would not call mobiafire the league community and i would not call you tubers community either. Mobiafire is a business plain and simple. Someone thinks they can make money of ADs on the site. Nothing wrong with that, but do not think they are being generous for free.

You tubers are people trying to make a name for themselves. Most of them think that they are the next big thing.

If you think they are helping you are wrong. You are helping them. They are getting something out of you for looking at there data.

The only think I would call the league community is on Riots own forums. Go look at what this community is. Its not pretty, it has a lot of trolling and usually far from helpful.

Again like i said before if someone wants to help go do it. I just feel that most of the league personal are not here for that.

MackleDoge1 votes

I'm with you on this one, it doesn't take being part of the community to make a video or guide, especially since you can just look up the information from other sources, you practically don't even have to play.

I feel you have it spot on with the "helpful" aspect of the community, there isn't anything stopping us from helping one another but we don't see it very often, nor is it really reasonable to expect a lot of it, most people just simply don't care or aren't that concerned about that sort of thing.

lorewise2 votes

That sounds like an arbitrary line to draw. So the community begins in client and ends with the official forums? I disagree.

Angry Monster1 votes

you have to draw the line there. OR sub/ independent communities cant exist. They would be in theory part of the great whole. And go try telling gaming clans that they are not separate from the rest. See were that gets you.(CS, TF2, ect)

lorewise1 votes

Well I'm not a fan of that kind of attitude either. If you play a game like TF2 regardless of who you play with, you're part of a larger community. I'm not an FPS or Shooter fan so I don't know what TF2 players are like but that's beside the point.

I guess I just prefer inclusive attitudes rather than exclusive ones.

I may not like everyone that plays League of Legends but I'm still going to be respectful to them and I still think they're part of the community.

Angry Monster1 votes

you are missing the point. but what ever

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Okay well rested and back

Not sure why you feel that people need to be helpful.....[snipped]

I wasn't clear here, I don't expect everyone to be helpful to everyone. Like I said in OP that's naive to think that's wanted or even possible. I guess to better refine my statement is "I expect the community to not be afraid to help". In other words, if someone is noticeably struggling or there could be a good suggestion stated there will be someone in a game there to help if they feel they can. And as a flip side, I hope people will be humble enough to discern friendly advice from condescending remarks. I don't expect that advice to be acted upon or otherwise used, but just the fact that an effort is made.

Bah don't care. I feel that at times riot listens to the people to much.(example annie skin thing)

Fair. I find it's heavily dependent on the individual Rioter, but I find Riot admitting their mistakes and acting on them balances it out favorably. There have been points where I think the community could influence a decision too heavily, and many cases where players criticize topics that they actually don't have any experience in and are attacking points for the sake of attacking and not for the improvement of the game. It's an ebb and flow thing in my eyes. It'll never be perfect, but I do think it's important.

The thing is where can we complain then if everything is positive. The reality....[snipped]

As with the first, I didn't explain it perfectly. A 'default positive' is not 'always positive'. Complaints, anger and disappointment are completely needed for improvement and addressing mistakes, but I want the community to work against the 'default negative' we have going now. What happens when a player's computer bugs out? Immediately Riot's fault. What happens when a game starts going south? Blame everyone and cry 'gg'. Have you actually tried saying "I like this patch" before? It doesn't end well in my experience. Naturally I'm not saying everyone does this, but it's the general expectation of any reactions both in-game and out. I would much rather have more people stay positive or even just silent until actually looking farther into the situation itself. Essentially, stop the negative 'reflex' our community has right now.

I think I already touched on this. Again what is constructive....[snipped]

That's what I said though, constructive does not have to be supportive of a decision. My only personal requirement for feedback being constructive is specifically having an explanation. It could be something as simple as "I don't like this Darius rework because I liked the old Q better" to a 3-page long rant, as long as reasoning is there and not just "This is awful" or "Rito Please".

I really feel you expect to much here.

I really do, these are also expectations I put on myself. It unfair and incredibly biased to impose these expectations on others, especially when I do not feel I've met them myself at times, I will completely admit that. However, I'd rather set the bar high and give a little ground than set the bar low and try to lift it higher.

lorewise1 votes

I would argue that Riot does have an excellent relationship with the community. I'm sure there are other game developers who are as open as Riot but they're few and far between.

And that does create for an amazing community despite any other toxicity. I mean this game is huge and I can't even think of any game company that not only has the amount of players as League and an overwhelmingly amazing community.

I realize that LoL is known for toxicity but that's usually limited to actual games. The community surrounding Riot and even their own corporate atmosphere (from what I've read) seems to foster a lot of loyalty, passion, and positive experiences. I mean I hate toxicity but I still play this game and I only rarely see horrible behavior outside of mathces.

I wouldn't play if I felt otherwise.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

In regards of Riot ---> community I completely agree with you. Few companies go to as much length as Riot does to communicate and work with their playerbase. But I think community ---> Riot is not nearly as great. The average post in GD and the natural reactions to any perspective from a fellow player or a Rioter is treated very harshly and with undue negativity. Now this can all be attributed to a vocal minority tarnishing the reputation of the community as a whole, but the fat it has been left to itself long enough that that's the general stereotype for the League Community is saddening.

Now that's my personal experience and outlook, and only that. I can completely believe your experience has been different and I am very happy to hear that you're general experience has been a positive one. Out of curiosity, do/have you frequented the vBulletin forums at all, or have you stayed with the CB more often than not for your out-of-game experience?

lorewise2 votes

As a general rule I tend to avoid the GD portion of any multiplayer game these days, especially when it's free to make an account. That unfettered access means you're going to see an unusual amount of poor behavior.

On the flip side, even games with subscriptions have their issues. I mean WoW's forums are just as much a hive of scum and villainy as any others. It's just the nature of the beast. So I tend to believe you can't judge a community by that aspect alone.

Edit: I'm sorry I didn't fully answer your question. I prefer the CB because it's easier to track conversations. The old forums don't facilitate conversations like these as well, and when I'm in the mood to engage with the community I prefer to do so where one on one meaningful conversations can be had.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Very true very true, although comparing WoW to League communities I've noticed WoW has less anti-Blizz traffic than League's anti-Riot traffic. It's not a huge difference but personally I can stomach a lot more negative behavior thrown towards each other (in forums not in-game) rather than ganging up on the devs. Largely because the Devs can't easily defend themselves quickly and will always draw a massive amount of attention with even a 1 on 1 conversation.

I will admit, I've let my opinion get too biased towards GD and the vocal minority there. So to somewhat make up for it I will say my favorite community fragment is Fan Creations. That's the place where I see the most positive, consistently constructive and helpful players. :)

lorewise1 votes

Well I can't help but think that's because of Blizzard. If your post seems even remotely personal or "heated" Blizzard shuts it down. Riot is way more forgiving in this regard. Blizzard's general policy is "I'm not going to listen if you're yelling." Riot has more of a "I hear you, and I understand you're upset, however...".

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