@Riot: Need an opinion on the idea of a "Spirit Link" ultimate

Yousonerfed·Nov 3, 2013·2 votes·412 views

I'm in the middle of developing a dancer Support Champion, and her ultimate involves the use of Spirit Link. For those of you who don't remember that effect from Warcraft 3, Spirit Link would bind together a few of your units and redistribute 50% of any damage dealt to one of them equally among the others (which made it very hard to snipe one of your units).

Obviously 50% redistribution would be overpowered in League, but my Champion's ultimate does it for 20/25/30% (post-mitigation). Numbers aside, though, is the idea of a Spirit Link mechanic in League something that classifies as "burden of knowledge"-breaking?

I hope not. It'd be a very unique mechanic to have, letting a support redirect huge amounts of damage off an allied carry and onto teammates (instead of just giving said ally huge damage reduction ala Maokai's ultimate). It would have the potential to be very strong, but at a price to the support and her teammates.

If you need some more context, please visit this topic: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4000347

11 Comments

Void2258Nov 3, 20131 votes

They kinda tried this with Karma originally (See her pre-rework kit). It didn't work well because she needed to stay in range, but was too squishy to do so. It might work better on a tank support rather than a caster, but it would need a hell of a callout. Similar team-assist ults for Zilean and Yorick have the problem that 90% of the time the target doesn't realize that they are buffed, due to the small visual indication and the lack of voice chat.

YousonerfedNov 4, 20131 votes

The way I've made it is so that the effect is based around an aura projected by the dancer. Anyone in range of the aura is linked to both the dancer and every other allied Champion within the aura's AOE. It wouldn't be a targeted effect.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

I believe this breaks the rule of team interaction. You can't have any champion that could potentially harm your own team using her abilities. This includes redirecting damage.

The only way this would work is if the champion redirected the damage to herself, and seeing as she would be support this would be a very weak ability because supports are innately squishy.

Looking at your champion skill set it seems you've made the most overpowered champion I've ever laid eyes on and you should consider perhaps scaling back and reworking some of her mechanics.

You've given her an AOE push back equivalent to a janna ult, with an aoe heal that scales with missing health tied into it and both cost relatively no mana.

You've also given her a taunt, a spell shield, a gap closer and an escape all in one ability.

Not only that but you gave her the ability to chase very strongly AND run very strongly at again, relatively no mana cost.

And last but not least the ultimate that breaks league's sacred rule.

While the concept for your champion is cool, you need to look at her mechanics and try to balance her. If you want her to support then give her a support toolkit without making her ridiculous. Always keep in mind there is a very fine line between a support and an overpowered champ. If you've ever played ARAM you will have noticed that most wins are dictated by the number of supports on each team. The support toolkit can be very powerful and if not balanced properly would end up leaking into another lane and unbalancing everything.

So before you look at her ult, I would suggest scaling back some of her other abilities and probably removing a LOT of her utility. Not everything can be an ultimate.

I hope this was helpful and if you end up making changes I'd love to give more feedback and my thoughts on it. Dancer is a great idea for a champion.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

I decided I liked the idea and that I would help see if I could flesh out some of the more concerning things that struck me when I looked at her. Time to go ability to ability.

P - Rhythm Freesia gains 20/25/30% bonus movement speed and ignores unit collision for 1.5 seconds each time she hits an allied/enemy Champion with one of her abilities. (Does not stack; refreshes if reapplied.)

As far as passives go this is a VERY strong passive and 1.5 seconds is a LOT longer then you believe. 20/25/30 PERCENT bonus movement speed is also a HUUUGE amount. To give you an idea of how broken this is the Nami passive grants allies 40 movement speed, not 40%, just 40. Maybe remove the percentage and all of a sudden this ability becomes workable!

Q - Wind Waltz/Soothing Step First Cast - Wind Waltz: Freesia spins her sash to stir the air around her (300 range), dealing magic damage to all nearby enemies and pushing all enemies struck back a fixed distance (100 distance). If Freesia damages an enemy Champion this way, she can cast Soothing Step within the next 3 seconds. Second Cast - Soothing Step: Freesia spins her sash again to heal herself and all nearby allies around her (250 range). The strength of the heal increases based on missing health (for each individual target). 8 second cooldown (does not cycle while Soothing Step is available). 50 mana cost on both activations. Both can be cast while moving.

I see what you're trying to do here but you have to take into account that an AOE push back is kind of a ridiculous thing to have with zero cast time, what a low cooldown, and a low mana cost. Not to mention the heal that scales off missing health.

Perhaps make the range of the push back very small (melee range) or leave it at 300 and have it be directional, and as for her secondary ability this is far to overpowered. 50 mana for an aoe heal that increases based off missing health? On an 8 second cooldown!!! She would just be pumping everyone up to full health non stop.

The idea is good but instead maybe there is a chance to introduce an interesting mechanic. Make the first part of each ability cost very little mana, and the second part of each ability cost a lot and increase the cooldown by a lot. So the second ability would cost a percentage of her mana (maybe 20%) and increase the cooldown of her Q on cast by 30 seconds. (also dont make it scale off the missing health, thats way to strong). That way conservation of mana and cooldowns become a vital roll and she doesn't just steam roll her entire party to full health every 8 seconds.

W - Lover's Lavolta On-ally cast: Freesia dashes to target allied Champion, granting herself and her ally a spell shield that lasts up to 2 seconds. If the spell shield successfully absorbs an enemy spell, it grants its target 20/25/30/35/40% bonus movement speed for 2 seconds. (Can be cast on self.) On-enemy cast: Freesia dashes to target enemy Champion, dealing magic damage and charming it for 1.25-2.25 seconds. 18/17/16/15/14 second cooldown. 70/80/90/100/110 mana cost. 600 range for both effects.

This is a cool mechanic but again, incredibly overpowered. A spell shield is a REALLY strong mechanic which can turn the tide of a game drastically. As well as giving her an escape AND a gap closer in the same spell you've also given her a taunt and a shield.

I would suggest removing the spell shield and the movement speed bonus, making it a regular shield spell, like LeeSin, and as for the second ability perhaps it should only give herself a spell shield and a small movement speed increase. As I said before spell shields are very strong and with her current tool kit a gap closer would be ridiculous, she could shield an ally, taunt an enemy, get behind them, knock them back, heal her ally etc... Its far too much for one champion to have.

If her ability had no gap closer and instead provided her with a small burst of movement and a self cast spell shield (similar to sivir + karma shields) and cost a good deal of mana and was on a long cooldown she could use the ability at a balanced level.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

Part 2!!!

E - Furious Fouette Freesia dashes in target direction (450 range), hasting allies and slowing enemies she passes through by 15/20/25/30/35 (+0.05 AP)% for 2 seconds. If Freesia passes through an allied or enemy Champion, she gains 10/15/20/25/30 (+0.04 AP) bonus armor and magic resistance for 2 seconds and can cast the skill a second time at no cost within 4 seconds. 12/11/10/9/8 second cooldown. 60/70/80/90/100 mana cost.

I like these names by the way!

Now then This ability is very strong again for a few reasons that can be abused very heavily. You already integrated movement speed increases with her passive but now you want to add more movement and slows into the picture all bundled up in a dash gap closer on not even an ultimate. And to make it even better she can cast it twice AND gain armor and MR.

This is another ultimate level ability. The gap close is very strong on a support but still manageable if you tone back the other parts of this ability. Here you would have to pick and choose what kind of champion you want her to be. If you give her the gap closer her passive would still trigger on allies increasing their movement speed which in itself would be a very strong ability. But I feel like a dash shouldn't be something a dancer would be using. So perhaps reworking this ability would be a good choice.

Maybe playing off the idea of buffing your champion (like sona) would be a better idea, Im just going to throw out an idea and you can add it to the list of ideas that you have and hopefully find one that is balanced for this ability.

My idea is perhaps you can have this be a channeled ability still sticking to the 2 part theme she has followed. The first channel would buff allies a little bit while she danced in one spot. It wouldnt cost that much mana but requires her to stand in one spot while she channels, the second ability would activate her channel buffing minions and allies while debuffing enemies slightly. Again it is a channel so it can be interrupted and she has to stay in one spot. The second channel might have an area effect similar to nasus's E and would cost much more mana and be on a higher cooldown timer. As such she can dance her heart away while having downsides and upsides.

R - Grand Finale Freesia performs her ultimate dance, granting herself and all nearby allied Champions (1200 range) a shield for up to 5 seconds. Additionally, for the next 5 seconds, Freesia generates a Spirit Link aura (1200 range). Whenever Freesia or an allied Champion within the aura takes physical or magical damage, 20/25/30% of that damage (post-mitigation) is instead redistributed equally amongst all allied Champions (if there is one) within the aura's AOE (including Freesia) (redistributed damage cannot be fatal to allies). 140/130/120 second cooldown. 125 mana cost.

Unfortunately this is one ability that would probably need to be reworked a lot. Riot has always said that they dont want champions that affect your own team in negative ways and I feel like redistributing damage might fall under that category.

I'd love to brainstorm with you a bit on this idea and flesh it out a bit more but I have to go do some work right now. Ill be back in a bit and I'll offer any ideas I have for her ult. Feel free to comment on stuff that I said that is totally off base or wrong and that you disagree with. Discussion breeds good champions!

I hope this was helpful!

YousonerfedNov 4, 20131 votes

Wow, big analysis. I'll definitely address it sometime when I get home.

And I dun-goofed; I didn't even recall that "detrimental to allies" rule. Guess Spirit Link is forbidden unless it's against the enemy, but I don't want Freesia to have that.

First glance on this isn't promising; there's some stuff I want to keep, but it looks like I'll need to redirect a good deal of her capabilities to other parts of her kit. First thought is to move her Charm to her ultimate, but that might break Riot's thoughts on "supports can't get mass lockdown" if I don't add proper counterplay.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

Im glad you're going to read through my analysis. I think if you're set on having a taunt then perhaps add some stripper-ish ultimate where she mesmerizes a champion. After looking at your champion idea for awhile though I dont know if a Dancer should have a taunt. (Maybe a charm...)

YousonerfedNov 4, 20131 votes

I'd have a charm on her as well. That's what I intended.

Now to address some concerns.

Freesia's passive, I guess changing it to flat MS is probably for the best, but what if the current one had the MS decay over its duration? Would that help?

Now for Freesia's Q.

For the first half, that's probably a case of me badly miswording things. The pushback range is very short (melee range is generally 125 distance), and not nearly as large as Janna's. But seeing your comparison, I guess I could lower the pushback to 50 distance; it's not really good for pushing an opponent into something, but for tripping up someone like how Maokai does with his Q.

For the Q heal, that was also misleading; it doesn't heal the same way as Karma's old Q did. It's more like what Soraka is getting now; it heals a flat amount, which becomes 1% more effective for every 2% of her ally's missing health. The base amount is going to be weak (with also a weak AP ratio), but if your opponent is at 1% health, it essentially heals 50% more. Cost inefficient for sustain, but good if your ally is almost dead.

I do like your idea of making the mana cost steeper on the heal, though. I'm thinking I'll change it to 20/25/30/35/40 on the first half, 60/65/70/75/80 on the second half; maximum total mana cost will be 120, which isn't cheap. If that's too low, though, let me know.

Now for Freesia's W.

Judging from your feedback, I'm thinking I'll need to give it a complete workover. I'm thinking something like this (probably needs more):

On-ally Cast: Freesia dashes to target ally, granting it bonus AR/MR for a few seconds. Can be cast on self.
On-enemy Cast: Freesia dashes to target enemy, decreasing its AR/MR for a few seconds.

Part of Freesia's W is that it needs to be a mobility tool, letting her navigate a fight. She gives up any sort of harass capability in order to get that mobility, so she can't poke in lane like Sona can. She has to take a risk in order to deal damage, which can REALLY backfire against opponents like Taric or Leona.

Now for Freesia's E.

I only added on the bonus AR/MR as a survivability tool for Freesia since she has to get into melees to do her job. If that's too much stuff on one ability, I'll look at ways to remove some parts.

Your suggestion, while neat, isn't what I'd want on Freesia. She's meant to flow like a river, moving around fights with high agility, not stick to one place and become a sitting duck if she can help it.

Finally, Freesia's ultimate, which is gonna need a remake.

I'm thinking on how to remake the ultimate to be more aggressive and more of a "power play" moment. I'm thinking something like this, but it's only a prototype for now:

Lover's Lavolta
Freesia charms all nearby enemy Champions for 1 second. Afterwards, she begins to spin for up to 5 seconds, dealing magic damage and slowing all nearby enemies. Freesia cannot attack or use her other abilities while spinning, but can still move around and can cancel the effect at any time.

Something kinda like Wukong's ultimate, but instead of high damage and a knock-up, it'd be a 1-second Charm on start-up, followed by a "slowing Bladestorm" effect. Weaker damage compared to others, but designed to trip up enemies.

I suspect, however, that this wouldn't be the greatest idea, so I'm still open to others.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

Yay you read it! Time to respond.

Maokai does with his Q.

This is more or less what I had in mind so we're in agreement here!

It's more like what Soraka is getting now

This works only if it isn't a full aoe. Healing 5 people with the equivalent of a soraka heal would be... crazy. Either that or AP scaling off the ability and keep it percentage based, that would be pretty cool.

On-ally Cast: Freesia dashes to target ally, granting it bonus AR/MR for a few seconds. Can be cast on self. On-enemy Cast: Freesia dashes to target enemy, decreasing its AR/MR for a few seconds.

I like this idea but perhaps add in a shield, bonus stats are strong but perhaps not strong enough. Maybe add a shield if cast on an ally beneath a certain percentage of health or something idk...

And she should definitely slow the enemy with her gap closer. With the reduction in power to her other abilities being a squishy melee champion means she needs to have some form of CC, a charm works but a slow is nice.

She's meant to flow like a river, moving around fights with high agility, not stick to one place and become a sitting duck if she can help it.

I feel like if you keep this ability as it is and keep her W as it is her abilities begin to pale and she becomes weak. She should basically just be zipping around the battlefield doing nothing but buffing people slightly and on occasion dishing out a ridiculous heal and ult. Perhaps look at adding more functionality to her E while reducing the extra movement it provides. Her passive would already make her pretty fast and I think she would benefit from having another kind of tool at her disposal, maybe something that does flat damage, or a snare that reduces her cooldown on other abilities.

Lover's Lavolta Freesia charms all nearby enemy Champions for 1 second. Afterwards, she begins to spin for up to 5 seconds, dealing magic damage and slowing all nearby enemies. Freesia cannot use her other abilities while spinning, but can cancel the effect at any time.

I like it.

YousonerfedNov 10, 20131 votes

Need to make some updates on this. Sorry, been busy.

To start, when you compare the heal on Freesia's Q with Soraka's, you need to remember one thing: Soraka does not need to take a huge risk to heal an ally, while Freesia does. Freesia first has to hit with Wind Waltz to gain access to her heal, which requires her to get to close range, hit an enemy Champion, then run back to her ally and heal him/her within the 3-second window.

Sounds easy? What if your opponent is a Taric? Or Leona? Or Alistar? Suddenly that starts to sound a lot more dangerous. And that's what I feel balances out Freesia's healing: she has to take a BIG risk at times to use it.

For Freesia's W, I think adding a shield to the on-ally effect would make it too similar to Orianna's Command: Protect. I'd rather it give the ally a bonus to MS for a short time, with the on-enemy effect slowing the target. Both movement modifiers would scale with AP (Riot's now scaling support utilities with AP).

As for the E skill, I've been thinking of a new one. This might be REALLY imbalanced, though.

Furious Fouette
After a short wind-up (cannot be interrupted), Freesia launches a short-ranged skill-shot in target direction (max. 450-500 range). If it hits an enemy Champion, it deals magic damage and Freesia instantly swaps her position with the target.

Sounds nasty, huh? Like a skill-shot version of Urgot's ultimate. However, it would be HUGELY telegraphed, so your opponents will dodge it if you don't get a proper setup first. However, if you hit, the potency can be awesome. We all know what Urgot's ultimate can do to a carry.

Finally, I forgot to put into the description on Freesia's new ultimate that she can still move while spinning. She just can't attack or use other abilities.

AdaptiveCoffeeNov 4, 20131 votes

I compiled a list of all my changes into one champion style Q W E R Passive thing... Its mostly just there for ease of reading. Enjoy below and thanks for the great concept.

Original Link: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4000347[2]

Credit goes to YousoGreat for the concept and ability work.

Passive Ability "Rhythm": P - Rhythm Freesia gains 30/35/40 bonus movement speed and ignores unit collision for 1.5 seconds each time she hits an allied/enemy Champion with one of her abilities. (Does not stack; refreshes if reapplied.)

The concept of a Dancer support kind of points towards high mobility. The original creator had percentage bonuses (20/25/30%) that seemed a bit ridiculous so I think that toning that down to 30/35/40 flat movement speed compliments her toolkit nicely while not being overbearing.

Q Ability "Wind Waltz/Soothing Step" On first cast (Wind Waltz) Freesia knocks back all enemies in melee range and does a small amount of damage. On Second Cast (Soothing Step) Freesia heals all allies near her increasing the cooldown of this ability drastically.

So the whole idea behind abilities is that she has a 2 step cast sequence, like lee sin. The first cast is mediocre and costs a bit of mana, but the second cast would cost a percentage of her mana and increase the cooldown of her ability by a lot, but be much stronger.

This aoe heal gives her lots of team fight potential while still being useful in lanes (could heal minions as well). But the increased mana cost and cooldown reduction means that she would have to manage her playstyle and she would be left vulnerable very quickly if not played properly.

W Ability "Lover's Lavolta" First cast, Freesia dashes to an ally and shields them and herself providing both with a small movement speed increase. Second cast, Freesia slows an enemies movement speed and grants the closest ally to that enemy a spell shield.

The first cast would grant a small shield as well as an ally gap closer. This would provide her with a bit more mobility and a small escape. The second ability would again, cost a bit more mana and increase the cooldown of the ability but would be stronger. Dealing damage, slowing and providing a spell shield to one ally (similar to sivir's).

E Ability "Furious Fouette": First cast, Freesia dances in place for 5 seconds while increasing the attack damage and ability power of nearby allies. Second cast, Freesia empowers her dance increasing all allies movement speed in shortly and granting a small shield to all allies.

This ability would be a channel ability that freesia and an enemy could interrupt. The first ability requires freesia to stay in one place and channel, increasing the stats of allies nearby (as Im not a numbers guy the particular stats increased would have to be looked at by someone else). The second part of the ability, again costing more mana and incurring a higher cooldown would put a small shield on all allies near her and would increase their movement speed. This would only be able to be used while channeling the first ability (must have channeled for more then 1 second so you cant just double tap, maybe give the first ability a cast time!)

Ultimate: "The Grand Finale": NO IDEA!