"Can Riot rework anti-fun champs?"

Kikirino·Jan 4, 2016·19 votes·1,682 views

How does one define anti-fun? What makes your idea of anti-fun the same as everyone else? Some say yasuo is anti-fun but I would disagree.

Also, are any champions you are playing against ever fun when you are losing to them? The problem with the complaint of anti-fun is I don't think anyone has fun losing to a champion so every champion is anti-fun at some point and if you struggle against a specific champion you will find it to be anti-fun just because you struggle to get it.

I don't know... just seems like people asking for 'anti-fun' to be reworked are simply asking for changes to champions they don't know how to beat.

56 Comments

VerxintJan 4, 20169 votes

80% of the balance posts on this forum are "I just lost to this it must be op toxic anti fun and it needs a nerf"

FortisDominusJan 4, 20162 votes

i do agree except that there really are anti fun champions like trydamere who can be invincible for what, like 5 seconds?

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i do agree except that there really are anti fun champions like trydamere who can be invincible for what, like 5 seconds?

And why is that antifun?

iHerringJan 5, 20161 votes

It massively removes agency from the opponent, I'd guess. He gets to act with literal impunity for 5 seconds and his enemy gets to either stand there and watch or run away.

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It massively removes agency from the opponent, I'd guess. He gets to act with literal impunity for 5 seconds and his enemy gets to either stand there and watch or run away.

Agency?

iHerringJan 5, 20162 votes

My best rough explanation for this context, "the ability to take meaningful actions and have control of your character"

Or to try and put it another way, instead of "you both do things" it becomes "he does things and you react to them".

Also see the below post that says amongst other things... Lose lane against Tryn = rekt Even lane against Tryn = lose Win lane against Tryn = lose Dumpster lane against Tryn = equivalent to an even lane against most others

IronwallJacksonJan 5, 20161 votes

Agency:

2 : the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power.

In this situation, it refers to Tryn's ult making him significantly less interactable for opponents, and entiely uninteractable for opponents who only pack damage.

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In this situation, it refers to Tryn's ult making him significantly less interactable for opponents, and entiely uninteractable for opponents who only pack damage.

Step 1) activate cc Step 2) laugh as the world burns Step 3) laugh as trynd's ult is wasted with regular ability cc.

IronwallJacksonJan 5, 20161 votes

Oh, I know how to deal with an ulting tryn, but not every champion has significant cc, and either ay, his ult temporarily removes ones of the avenues you have to interact with him: damage.

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I know how to deal with an ulting tryn, but not every champion has significant cc, and either ay, his ult temporarily removes ones of the avenues you have to interact with him: damage.

You're tellinng me you're playing one of the few champions that don't even have a slow? And you can't build a rylais, randuins, deadmans, frozen mallet, botrk, or gunblade?

IronwallJacksonJan 5, 20161 votes

Tryn has a dash that causes damage, so slows aren't especially effective. This is especially true because Tryn also has a slow.

Pierce The VealJan 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Tryn has a dash that causes damage, so slows aren't especially effective. This is especially true because Tryn also has a slow.

A well timed slow is enough to ruin his ult.

FortisDominusJan 5, 20161 votes

Its because even if you go even in lane with tryndamere, he is actually winning because he outscales you and you wont be able to kill him due to his ult, only if you are ahead will you stand a chance at killing tryndamere. If you are losing lane he can just dive you all day because of his ult and his heal. Unless you hold a substantial lead against tryndamere this lane can become quite frustrating to deal with.

Tryndamere mains are lanes that test a top laner to play top lane perfectly and to not mess up, one tiny mistake can put tryndamere in the lead, and when tryndamere gets rolling he will eventually be out of your control.

Tiny mistakes may be like trading too many auto attacks because you forgot that you should not trade auto attacks with a tryndamere.

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Its because even if you go even in lane with tryndamere, he is actually winning because he outscales you and you wont be able to kill him due to his ult, only if you are ahead will you stand a chance at killing tryndamere. If you are losing lane he can just dive you all day because of his ult and his heal. Unless you hold a substantial lead against tryndamere this lane can become quite frustrating to deal with.

Tryndamere mains are lanes that test a top laner to play top lane perfectly and to not mess up, one tiny mistake can put tryndamere in the lead, and when tryndamere gets rolling he will eventually be out of your control.

Tiny mistakes may be like trading too many auto attacks because you forgot that you should not trade auto attacks with a tryndamere.

Tryndamere mains?

Let me introduce you to fiora mains. Playing against fiora is the absolute worst.

Lintu PuckJan 5, 20161 votes

Just like Little Mac...SO LET's NERF GRENINJA! :D

Malicious MetalJan 4, 20167 votes

Mordekaiser was reworked for being "anti-fun" and unhealthy. Trust me, you don't want any more champs being reworked for that exact reason ^^''

KikirinoJan 4, 20161 votes

There is a difference between anti-fun and unhealthy. I cannot comment on morde because I never played him but I played a lot of old Poppy and can completely agree she was unhealthy and needed a rework. I loved playing her and actually miss it but she needed this rework.

StarlingSweetJan 4, 20161 votes

Anti-fun would be something uncounterable. Like old poppy ult (they reworked it) Or old fiora ult (they re worked it). Yorick is pretty anti fun because you cant click his ghouls so laning phase is hell on earth. Stuff like this that you literally cannot play against is what riot calls "anti-fun"

ARequestOfDeathJan 5, 20161 votes

i wrecked a yorick as teemo because i could q his e

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=sE5n47Qs,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-04T20:45:19.291+0000)

Mordekaiser was reworked for being "anti-fun" and unhealthy. Trust me, you don't want any more champs being reworked for that exact reason ^^''

My main, Akali, has already had so many QoL nerfs because she was "anti fun." I definitely don't want any more "reworks" or nerfs.

Remlap1223Jan 5, 20161 votes

QOL nerfs are the absolute worst. QOL nerfs bricked Sion from competitive play, and made Veigar have a 38% winrate for almost three patches.

Pierce The VealJan 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

QOL nerfs are the absolute worst. QOL nerfs bricked Sion from competitive play, and made Veigar have a 38% winrate for almost three patches.

Nerf the numbers, nerf anythinf, but don't fricking do QoL nerfs. Those just aren't fair to the players. Making a champion less fun and more clunky should not be the wah to go.

OperationDEEZ1Jan 4, 20166 votes

How does one define anti-fun?

Shaco

EndlessSorcererJan 4, 20164 votes

How does one define anti-fun?

Going by what I've seen on the boards, it refers to any champion which beat them and that they don't play.

Slamurai JackJan 4, 20162 votes

Don't forget that it also kills them. You can be as toxic and unfair as you want, so long as you aren't good at killing people. That's why Tahm Kench is anti-fun and Janna isn't even though they do the same thing, only Janna's adc can keep attacking while being protected. You think Tahm would be qq'ed about nearly as much if he couldn't kill people?

EndlessSorcererJan 4, 20161 votes

Players have an instinctive fear of Janna mains and shall not risk provoking them.

Supports mains are terrifying.

YatsufusåJan 4, 20162 votes

I've had some people tell me I'm playing "broken champions" whenever I use Urgot adc or Anivia mid simply because I do well with them.

I can use Lee Sin, Zed, Vayne or even Fizz when he's free and do bad but no one complains even though those champs are always called OP on the boards.

It all depends on who's crying at the time.

Edit: just to simplify, I'm agreeing with you

Slamurai JackJan 4, 20162 votes

Riot's made it pretty clear that the main criterion for anti-fun mechanics are those where the frustration in facing the mechanic exceeds the fun derived from the person using the mechanic. The key word here is exceeds. Riot has consistently shown a willingness to implement mechanics that are extremely satisfying for the player even with possible frustration for the opponent. There's a reason that Riot is far more hesitant to change very popular champions: They've already shown very high user enjoyment and risking that enjoyment in order to make changes that might make them feel more fair to play against is not in the playerbases best interest, nor Riots.

The fact that champions like Riven, Zed, Lee Sin, Thresh, Vayne, and Ezreal constantly maintain high playrates no matter their state of balance is a sign of a well designed champion, not a poorly designed one. The fact that Lee Sin and Thresh can have pickrates upwards of 30% without breaking the game is a testament to being the pinnacle of what Riot has managed to create. We should be clamoring for more champions like them, not less. By contrast, champions like Cass, Skarner, Mordekaiser and Nunu are abject failures because not only do they all incorporate design elements that are frustrating to play against, but the community as a whole finds them utterly unfulfilling to play.

ZGM PermabannedJan 5, 20162 votes

Annie

morris1Jan 5, 20162 votes

Rengar

idontplaythemetaJan 4, 20161 votes

Idk maybe you should scout around Teemo

KikirinoJan 4, 20161 votes

Teemo isn't bad, but again, when you are losing to him he is anti-fun but when you are beating him he is just like every other champion.

FortisDominusJan 4, 20161 votes

tryndamere is the definition of anti fun

MundoJan 4, 20161 votes

Anti Fun is Fun for Anti.

Slamurai JackJan 4, 20161 votes

Of course it is.

TurquoiseYoshiJan 4, 20161 votes

Honestly, anti-fun is a subjective-sounding version of saying a champion has a toxic or broken kit, meaning that their kit will always be really unbalanced unless a feature/features are removed.

For example, old Poppy and current Yorick are great examples, because they have specific spells (ult and ghouls, respectively) that are either unrewarding or OP. So they were both gutted like fish and waited to be reworked.

RendarkanJan 4, 20161 votes

Let's face it. Poppy's new ult is the same level of annoyance and frustration as her old one. Which is hilarious.

TurquoiseYoshiJan 4, 20161 votes

It is more strategic and more enjoyable to use. The old one was just kind of a "I want to take less damage lemme use it LOL", to which an enemy gets annoyed by it, and then when it wears off quickly, the Poppy gets annoyed as well.

iHerringJan 5, 20161 votes

At least you can laugh at new Poppy ult. Old Poppy ult was just "Oh, so Poppy is once again immune to everything except our tank while she chases down our carry"

Linna ExcelJan 4, 20161 votes

How does one define anti-fun?

Current soraka. Old soraka for most people. Basically everything Soraka.

Playing against a lee sin who knows what he's doing. Having a lee sin jungler who doesn't know what he's doing.

Teemo, Fizz, and Heimer.

People who expect me to gank at 2 as Sejauni or Shyvana.

elon wątrobaJan 4, 20161 votes

Champions, which are just ball of stats and got no meaningful interactions while playing against them. Warwick, yorick and all similar shit :D.

BakedLotionJan 4, 20161 votes

When a champion has a significantly higher chance of winning lane against you even when they fuck up. AKA Zed/Yasuo. Other lane bullies have counterplay and inherent weaknesses with sets them behind if they fuck up. But Zed and yasuo don't since they have safe ranged harrass/cs abilities/defensive abilities.

KikirinoJan 4, 20163 votes

Sounds like you simply don't understand how those two work. If a Zed or Yasuo player fucks up in lane and you still lose to them then you are simply the worse player. Go in on Zed when his shadow is down. If he goes in for cs without any form of escape harass him. Yasuo has no ranged poke unless you count his Q which is shorter range than more mage mid laner's autos. Bait his wind wall and then trade.

Also, they have an inherent weakness. They are squishy melee. One silence fucking ruins them. A good Cho'gath will shit on them. A Soraka support will make them cry in teamfights. They both can be poked out of lane and have no CC (aside from Yasuo's 3rd Q). If you really believe they have no counterplay then you have blind hatred for the champions and will never beat them because you have talked yourself into believing they are unbeatable.

Slamurai JackJan 4, 20162 votes

Yasuo has no counterplay and isn't set behind if he fucks up? How do you explain going 2/9/0 in the 1 Yasuo game you've actually played? Unless you're saying that you're so bad at this game that even this broken champion is too hard for you.

AkeneroJan 5, 20161 votes

Yorick player here

You cant beat yorick in lane. Period

I went 0/3 vs a fiora(when she was op mind you) within 5 minutes

Ended up getting a solo quad(shredding voli with passive mind you)

Literally yorick is toxicity personified

Just be nice if you play him, its hard enough already

Hedgehog HustlerJan 5, 20161 votes

Honestly Yorick is just very powerful overall. In most matchups he's going to have an advantage unless he's against a ranged opponent in which case his Q will be less useful. There is a lot of counterplay and a lot of the time staying under towers will make it very easy to deal with his ghouls (as well as actually clicking on the ghouls). Nasus can deal with him. Rumble (?) can deal with him. If played well, pretty much anyone can deal with him by staying under tower or just going all in at level 2 (Riven, Renekton, Fiora, Garen)

Only Play DariusJan 5, 20161 votes

Anti fun means they lack sufficient counterplay or are awful to play against even when you are winning and/or know how to beat them. If you're trying to tell me losing to Orianna is anywhere near as awful as losing to Teemo then you're crazy

Chrome RavenJan 5, 20161 votes

Malphite Tryndamere Irelia are the definition of anti fun laning

KikirinoJan 5, 20161 votes

Just curious, as a Malphite main, why is he unfun to lane against? He is actually very easy to beat in lane.

ChaosThiefJan 6, 20161 votes

For me, anti-fun is just the enemy champion is frustrating to deal with. However, this is usually to an extreme. Rengar is one of the prime cases brought up for this; he relies on his 100/0 in less than human reaction time to be successful, and if not he isn't very good. Or at least, that's what people say.

What players want is champions who can do something reliably time and time again, without the opponent's input, while Riot is trying to push it towards both players having interaction. Whenever a champion relies on a gimmick too much or simply makes you feel like you cannot do anything as a certain champion(s) (for example, pre-rework soraka was incredibly anti-fun for AD champions, especially casters such as pantheon, as you felt like you couldn't do anything. You couldn't harass since she had a self heal, you couldn't farm near minions since she hit you AND every minion of your wave, and you couldn't rely on channeling E on pantheon since she has a free point and click silence)

That's just my thoughts though.