Do roguelike games train you not to rage in League? [very long]

OhBoyItsaMegaman·9/4/2014, 4:33:00 PM·14 votes·1,868 views

So, I've always had a bit of trouble empathizing with people who get upset when their teammates feed or afk. Time after time I see the same claims: "you'd snap at your adc too if they kept getting grabbed", "if your team ignored your pings and walked into a trap, admit it you'd scream at them", "if you've never even once raged at your team for losing every lane, you're either lying or you're not human." And those things really don't apply to me. Under even the most frustrating circumstances, even if it's an important ranked game, I find myself feeling a vague sense of disappointment when things are going bad for the team, but never anything approaching actual anger even if I can clearly see that one individual is the cause.

The other night I was playing a game of Desktop Dungeons and I realized that that feeling isn't at all specific to LoL. I am a fan of roguelikes—games featuring randomly-generated hazards, permadeath, and difficult decisions that require deep knowledge of the game. That definition isn't perfect, but it'll do. I'm thinking of both modern somewhat actiony games like FTL and Spelunky and Binding of Isaac but also classic turn-based ones like NetHack and the original Rogue. These games can be brutal, and luck is an important factor but in a more substantial way than "an enemy got a lucky crit, you die." Multiple different types of overlapping challenges—keep your health up, acquire necessary powerups, establish safe areas you can retreat to, avoid fights that are too risky or impossible—mean that a stroke of bad luck can raise the difficulty of your run in a way that has lasting ramifications and affects the other types of challenge. Taking damage early might mean that you have to pass up the chance at some good equipment. Failing to get powered up may require you to risk fighting in a dangerous area to catch up. Running low on a vital resource may put you into desperation mode, trying anything that might keep you in the game.

The theme in these games is that pure bad luck might suddenly or gradually increase the difficulty without you necessarily doing anything wrong, though of course it could always become more difficult because you are doing things wrong. And also, at some point (especially classic turn-based roguelikes) the game will become unwinnable. You'll reach a point where a combination of your decisions and your luck will put you in a situation where you are going to die no matter what. Usually it's not obviously "checkmate" until a few turns before your death, but sometimes your fate is sealed well in advance. If you run low on food and by pure misfortune there happens to be no sources of (unpoisoned) food that you can reach in the next 300 turns, you're already dead and you just don't know it yet. In fact, depending on the nature of the game, it is quite possible that you rolled up a randomly unwinnable run where even a perfect and omniscient AI could not find a set of moves that will result in a win. More often, your own choices will doom you simply because you couldn't possibly foresee the random events that are coming up, e.g. you spend 300 gold on a magic ring, and 2 hours later you starve to death because food was so scarce and you're 15 gold short of buying a ration.

Coming back around to League (finally), there's a lot in common with roguelike themes. Things that are out of your control may wildly influence the difficulty, perhaps even make the game impossible to win from the start, and yet your personal skill has an enormous factor in determining the outcome of the game because your own actions at every turn have the potential to ripple through the game with consequences you couldn't have reasonably foreseen.

But because of the complexity of the game, it's typically not clear that the game has reached an unwinnable state until the nexus is actually getting hit. And in every loss, it'd be irresponsible to say that there was literally no series of actions you or anyone else could have taken to make it a win.

Some "hardcore" gamers complain about this generation's games and claim that they are too easy, that they don't punish you enough, that they hold your hand and make you soft. Not like the old NES era games that were relentlessly unforgiving. I don't necessarily think that's the right way of looking at it. I don't think that permadeath games with RNG and no saving are necessarily more difficult. It's just that they test you in a different way. These roguelike games are different from more mainstream games because they are not a puzzle that certainly has a solution. There is no guarantee that you will win, even if you do what you're supposed to do.

If you don't play these types of games, this may legitimately be a foreign concept. If you load up Arkham Origins or Watch Dogs or something, you're presented with a set of challenges that can be overcome. Period. There's a minimum of one correct way to overcome them. And (this is the important part) it's understood that the player knows that the challenges can be overcome if you do things correctly, the way the game has been teaching you to do them. You're never going to reach a level where they haven't tested to ensure that it is 100% possible for the player to get through and reach the next area.

I won't label it as a good or bad thing, but I'm sure that this concept of guaranteed results is what draws a lot of people into gaming. Most video games offer you a reward as an observably direct consequence of your efforts. We don't get that assurance from real life. If you study for the test all weekend, it doesn't guarantee that you will get an A. If you say the right things to the girl, it doesn't guarantee that she will fall in love with you. If you teach your child right from wrong, it doesn't guarantee that they will grow up to be a good person. Compare that to Guitar Hero, where if you hold the yellow button and strum the thing at the right time, you are guaranteed to get 1000 points and continue your combo. You can try and still fail, but there is a right way and that right way guarantees a good result.

For someone who is accustomed to these conventional games, a roguelike game throws you a pretty big twist. You'll be rewarded with a great item randomly if you're lucky, and you'll run into a tremendously difficult fight that you don't have the resources to win if you're unlucky. And that fight isn't there because it teaches you an important lesson or because it is a specific punishment against players who squandered their resources. It's just arbitrarily there, because you are playing a game with arbitrary combinations of hazards that isn't designed to always be fair or even possible.

You master these games by learning the best way to persevere no matter what the RNG throws at you, even though there's no guarantee that that means you'll certainly win. In fact, the way that you handle the unfairly difficult runs shows a lot more about how well you know the game than the runs where you find a great item 3 minutes in. And learning to embrace the difficult runs is key to becoming a more skilled player, because these are the times where your skill will actually matter.

I approach League in the same way. While I know that my teammates are human beings, I think of them as random number generators (in the sense that I can't really predict or control what they're going to do). If the support won't ward, or if the jungler dies to golems, or if mid has a bad build, those are just random factors making this game a little harder than it might have been otherwise.

And just like a roguelike, I'm not going to throw my hands up and cry about an "unwinnable" game just because I did well and still lost. There is the possibility that the game was unwinnable—that a perfect AI would've lost if it had taken my place at the start. But it is unlikely. And more importantly, it's beside the point. The point is to be given challenges and try to overcome them. If you do well, you will win more often than if you didn't do well. And yet doing well doesn't mean you win; it is not a puzzle with a correct solution that you were supposed to do.

Is it possible that my attitude towards League was shaped by these types of games? And is it possible that other players become so frustrated with their team because their attitude was shaped by games with more deliberately-tuned challenges? Once again, I don't mean to diss games with conventional challenges. These games are fun too, and can be extremely challenging. But I wonder whether growing up playing only those types of games leads to a mindset where you inherently expect to win as long as you're doing things right. Perhaps the root cause of a lot of rage is the expectation that, like other video games, there will definitely be a guaranteed reward as an observably direct consequence of your efforts. What do you guys think?

12 Comments

SerBlaise9/4/2014, 4:44:17 PM3 votes

i can agree with you. Its a big part of the real world too; you don't always win. Teamwork games are an attempt to better quantify that aspect of life that is naturally unbalanced, but through cooperation can still bring about success. It's a tough lesson for most people to learn, and given that League is available for teens, I can see how they are still probably learning this lesson. I'm not sure what the solution is, or if there even is one. Bt I definitely agree with your analysis.

Hyrum Graff9/4/2014, 10:13:36 PM3 votes

Quality post - that's a really interesting way of thinking about your teammates.

@Baconhawk, could we get this as a post of the day?

ploki1229/5/2014, 3:59:09 AM3 votes

I can relate to this post, since I'm a big Roguelike fan too (well, to not foil Rogue-like fans, I'll say roguelite), but I really cannot relate to the conclusion(s). First of all, I think that even in the roguelike genre, "fuck you that's why" RNG-based games are really a relic of the past. If you look at Desktop Dungeons, probably more than 99% of the runs are winnable (if you're omnisicient). In FTL, since the sheer amount of possibilities is even greater, the proportion of unwinnable runs is probably like 1 in 1000 if not 10000, once again being omniscient. For Dungeons of Dredmor, it's a bit trickier since Dredmor truly can be a bitch, but I'd be amazed if on hard difficulty not 99% of the runs were winnable (with a random build and without even being omniscient). Then you encounter arcade-y "roguelikes" like Binding of Isaac, Rogue Legacy, Spelunky, etc. In those cases, your shot at succeeding is pretty much 100% proportional with your skill level.

And there's a reason that most, if not all, games are going toward a more player-dependant win scenario. Knowing that you had no influence on the outcome of your game is stupid. If I played Dungeons of Dredmor and first room I opened was a Monster Zoo, I'd really feel like the game is stupid, since at random it can choose that you have no say in what happens. If Desktop Dungeon had you start surrounded by four level 10 monsters, it's terribly annoying, especially since you just wasted a lot of prep gold and may have to grind again to retry. One of the (many) reasons Sword of the Stars : the Pit is not liked as much as other recent roguelikes is because it doesn't feel like it empowers you. In most games you feel like a spectator more than a player.

Now, if we translate that into LoL, no one likes having absolutely no influence on their game. Let's say that I love Poppy. I first pick Poppy support, my team flame me, and they choose to play real champions. We get a Lulu top, Zed mid, Tristana ADC and Nunu jungle. Now, the game starts, and I'm trying my damnest to win the lane even though it's not uncommon to have Tristana fall behind in lanes since her mid game clearly isn't the best. Let's say that I managed to pull ahead, my Tristana is 11/2/X while I died a bit being something like X/5/8. The problem is that no matter what I did, if my Zed managed to give their Riven 7 free kills, no matter how much I snowballed my super snowbally lane, we've got a fed Riven to deal with for absolutely no reasons. If my Lulu top chooses that she wants to carry being 1/5/2, instead of acting as a peel for our super fed carry, I can't do shit, and she'll keep on dieing in the enemy jungle that I can't ward because Riven is roaming and we have no one to pressure the top side of the map since she's dead. Also, there's nothing I can do to stop the enemies from taking dragons if my jungler prefers to farm his wraiths after we got a kill instead of utilizing his fed bottom lane.

All in all, what people dislike is that, while being a team game, it's rarely the team that wins the game, it's individuals that loses it. I'm far from a perfect guy, and I err on both sides of the coin. I do sometimes have terrible games (which happens more often when I'm forced into non-main roles, interestingly), and I do semi-often complain about people. However, it's comparable to roguelikes. I don't mind at all abotu losing if I look back at the game and can think "If I did X/Y/Z differently, we could've had a shot". The moment where I'm tilting, and the moment where I start complaining is if the game gives me the feeling that it was over as matchmaking got us into the game. There are games where I can only think to myself "No matter what champion I would've played, or how I would've played it, I would've lost this game", and seriously I don't believe that if players are actually trying to win, games like these should happen. It's like Roguelikes, I won't say that a game is good if once every 10 games, it takes me 30 minutes to understand that there is no stairs to the last floor.

SnuggleLumpicus9/4/2014, 5:20:23 PM1 votes

I just played a game as Leona and my team had two members who talked shit to me. I afked. I get reported because I refuse to help people who talk shit to me. It's a great game. Haha, guess how long it took the two others to talk shit to me too after that? About half a minute.

This community is garbage. They want to talk shit to you while you win for them. Or report you because you want to remove yourself from a group who talks shit to you. And riot supports them.

And their response for you not starting it "It doesn't matter". Both riot and your team.

acepil0t9/5/2014, 3:21:33 AM1 votes

I do try to think of teammates in a more human point of view, and the same with the opposition. However, your point is very valid and this may very well improve my attitude toward those annoying feeders. Great post, glad you could share this with the community!

ForAlch9/5/2014, 6:24:05 PM1 votes

I can relate, not from video games, but from card games such as Magic The Gathering. Variance will occur regardless of how you play. It means that sometimes you lose when you do everything right, but sometimes you also win when you have no right to. It's just the nature of the game. And it's a fun game. So there's really no reason to rage; just play tight, and the better you get, the tighter you play, the more you increase your odds of winning.

Brilliant post. You captured something that I've thought for a long time, but never been able to put into words.