So, why aren't we allowed to break meta before the pros do?

InsaneSamurai·Aug 10, 2014·31 votes·3,060 views

Most people on here seem to get instantly enraged at any meta-breaking picks, and to me that doesn't make any sense. The meta stops being a metagame at that point and starts being "you're only allowed to do something if pros do it". For example, Lulu mid was awesome, but when you tried to do it before it became a pro thing, people flipped out on you and threw games over it. At some point, some pro does it, then all the sudden it's a thing, and it's ok, despite the champion being exactly the same as before they did it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just play the game and see if the guy had a good reason to pick whatever abnormal thing he did? I'm pretty convinced that the majority of the time that breaking meta fails, it's because the team implodes, not because it actually performed poorly. For some reason people will often sit there and not say anything about the pick(even in team builder) until the game is already started, then they try as hard as they can to blame everything on you. I've seen people go so far as to say they're getting camped by the jungler top because bot didn't have a metagame adc. What gives?

95 Comments

WorgslargAug 10, 201410 votes

Yes, you can, but you cannot force others to accept something that they do not wish to.

I am more inclined to let someone pick out of meta if i do not sense they are trolling, but many people just want to play a meta game, simple and that does not require them to adjust their play.

League needs a meta, and while the meta must be changeable to survive, league cannot survive without it.

The majority of league players( in my experience) blindly follow the pros, without thought or reason. when pros learn to play around the strengths of a relatively unpicked champion, the flock realizes that they must do what the pros do, even when that champion was strong before.

Thunder DreamssAug 10, 201411 votes

The thing I really don't get tho is this: Why throw games over a "non-meta" pick?

For example I like running Swain support and I've had adc's literally declare their intent to feed, do so, and them blame the loss on me because I didn't play a "real" support. Is throwing the game really that much more fun than adapting your play style ever so slightly and trying to win?

I'm serious, I'd really like someone who dose this kind of thing to answer me: Why would you rather throw the game than just play normally and try to win?

ploki122Aug 10, 201411 votes

In a lot of cases, the disagreeing member (adc in your case) will express his opinion a lot more calmly at first. The thing is that he he still wants to win as much as possible and he doesn't feel like you're working toward that. Then, you probably label that player as "just another close-minded/flaming player".

This leads to an unwinnable situation where 2 of your players are tilted pretty much as the game begins. The support has low faith in his AD carry, since he feels that he's just another player that is stuck on playing meta picks, and probably even muted him, and possibly others, quite a while ago. Meanwhile, the ADC feels like he'S having to carry his lane 1v2 since he's stuck with a troll that doesn't wanna do everything in his power to win the game.

Then, the support performs worse since their coordination is shit. Everyone blames the support since they both are performing similarly, but you're playing an awkward pick. You blame the ADC, since you're tilted and he doesn't perform as well as you would like (because he's not cooperating because he's tilting) and he's tilting because you're not cooperating because you're tilting. Even in other lanes, the situation will often appear again either between jugnler and laner or between both solo laners.

In a lot of cases, the "throwing" player won't be feeding on purpose (even if they say so), they will simply be tilting just like you are, but both are so annoyed that they can't realize how that game was lost since champ select since there were already 2/3 tilting players.

Story of a Poppy support main.

P.s. Swain support is actually very situational and I would advise nearly anything else.

Thunder DreamssAug 10, 20143 votes

Well generally people don't say anything in champ select, at least not until I'm locked in (and no, I don't insta-lock) and at that point I don't know what you even think I can do about it. In champ select I guess I could dodge but after that, what, sit afk in fountain for my sins?

I ask the question because there are a fair number of people who, by my best analysis of their play and their own admission, strait up feed/afk/otherwise throw when faced with a "non-meta" pick and I don't understand it. Maybe you're right and they only claim to be feeding on purpose but I ask because no-one who actually engages in this behavior has ever explained it to me.

As to the off topic bit, Swain support is weak against hard engage all-in lanes (and Morgana). His difficulty is really just that those have been popular lately. Dismissing him as "very situational" would rationally mean we should dismiss supports like Janna or Zyra since they also have distinct weaknesses.

ploki122Aug 10, 20142 votes

One thing that I both suggest and tell you not to do would be saying beforehand that you intend on playing Swain Support (and then hinting toward favorable lane matchups like, I would believe, Tristana and Lucian). However, I've had a shitton of dickheads who would either ban Poppy to make sure I play something else, or flat out take support screwing the entire team over (since now everythign that was called/picked has to be reorganized with little to no time). I know it's ironic that I'm siding against communication, but it's a fact that people are tilting quite easily in the face of non-standard (I hate non-meta as a term, because it isn't used for what it actually means).

What you can do... in short, nothing. What you can actually do is not go on tilt, and keep having faith in your close-minded ADC, take on your team's flame without letting it get to you in the slightest, and try to showcase what Support Swain accomplishes, while coping up for what most would expect to be his downfall. In reality, unless you're the most altruistic and optimistic god, that's impossible. Because we both know you and I that it's a serious truckload of hate that comes your way, and it's hard and foolish to try and make a nice play that revolves around an uncooperative player.

Onto the off topic bit, what I hated the most about Swain Support is that he doesn't offer Poppy/Mundo/Zyra/Annie/etc.'s level of damage unless he gets pretty far ahead, and he has a pertty hard time counter-initiating. So not only is he weak to all ins on himself, but he's weak to all ins on his carry. In Zyra's base, her poke is a lot safer (plants), and her counter-engage level 6+ is MUCH better. For Janna, your counter-engage is basically godly and among the best. I still consider Janna a situational (to not say bad) pick. Otherwise, I believe we play our support swain differently, because I found Morg to be relatively easier than mosts.

Thunder DreamssAug 11, 20142 votes

I've found that generally I only get rage from the team when someone is throwing on my count. Generally people are willing to blame the 0/6 adc (or whoever). The games where people blame the non-standard player tend to be the one's where nobody throws but we lose anyway.

But that's just my experience.

With Spelltheif Swain's damage isn't bad after lvl 3 (2 ranks in e). The key is you only need to get one e off to burn all 3 stacks. It's not Zyra levels of damage but more reliable than Mundo and safer than Annie.

I think the big key is I play/build support Swain as a tank. Start off getting gold with Spelltheif and build tanky. Laning and mid-game I focus on peeling for the adc. Swain's q is kiting made easy and w is great for catching any melee that jumps on my carry, Leona included. Unless I'm really ahead I don't worry about damage until I have the mana pool to sustain my ult in mid to late game. Up to that point it's all about peeling and forcing people to focus me instead.

ploki122Aug 11, 20142 votes

It may have to do with the champion we're playing. Swain is basically a neglected champion that has fallen to lower tiers. Poppy is considered "shit's poop" tier by most of the community because of how misunderstood she is. Then, you factor in the fact that I'm saying I'm gonna play Poppy support... I can understand their train of thought. It's probably similar to when I see an Ashe adc...

Thunder DreamssAug 11, 20142 votes

lol, quite possibly. I do other odd things as well, Swain support is just my most recent adventure. The only reason I've unlocked any "real" adc's is because when I started playing ranked if I got stuck with adc and pulled out a Teemo or Malz people would rage-throw 100% of the time. I may suck with the "real" adc's but me playing at half strength is still better then playing with a feeder.

ploki122Aug 11, 20142 votes

Oh... that explains the other half of why you were receiving less backlash than I was... My most toxic exxperience was probably high gold... They really didn't like me locking that Poppy support in ranked :/ (yet, even in Plat 5 I still have >50% win rate on her as mainly support).

But I do share the feeling... I own Caitlyn hoping not to play her. If someone locks in Caitlyn and I end up ADC, I often don't know what to do and end up playing Ashe and semi-feeding.

Thunder DreamssAug 11, 20142 votes

Ya, my experience is that Silver is pretty chill, comparatively. When I took a vacation to low Bronze, dear lord the raging! The Golds I've seen also tend to be pretty bad, attitude wise. I really don't know about higher ranks, being only Silver.

12talesAug 10, 20142 votes

I've never understood why people seem to hold such disdain for efficient survival strategies.

ploki122Aug 10, 20142 votes

I must disagree with this... on pretty much all points.

you cannot force others to accept something that they do not wish to.

Actually, you can. If I lock in Poppy support, I force my team to cope with it. They can choose to flame me or throw the game, but that makes them griefers, and me the victim in all of that, meaning that they ends up in the tribunal (eventually if they keep at it), and I don't (unless I flame back).

League needs a meta, and while the meta must be changeable to survive, league cannot survive without it.

I think this is a grave misconception of what the meta truly is. Even they ended up buffing the xp share ratio of all creeps and jungle monsters to 100% it wouldn't really change the meta immediantely, since the meta isn't something that is created, it's something that slowly appears. The meta is basically what you expect to see when entering a game. saying that Summoners Rift is 5v5 is as much part of the meta than going 1-1-1-2, and letting onyl 1 of the 2 takes creeps bot. Whatever you assume will happen in the next game is the meta.

So basically, even the first day LoL was released there was a meta (Play champions you enjoy, kill your opponents as much as possible, group up for taking down major objectives likes dragon baron and inhibitors/nexus, etc.). Even the first time that a new game mode is played, there's a meta that's based on everyone's experience of other game modes and whatever info is available about that mode. You cannot have no meta, and the meta cannot be static unless the game is terrible (because as knowledge grows, the meta evolves).

The majority of league players( in my experience) blindly follow the pros, without thought or reason.

The majority of the players actually don't even watch pros, and thus have no real reason to follow them. What happens is twofold. First, everyone plays whatever they enjoy and feels help them win, and that automatically escalates toward stronger picks and more efficient strategies. Next, a minority also watches LCS/streams and use whatever knowledge they gain from it to get an advantage over their enemy. If Imaqtpie says that the new Lucian is way broken, and that I can see him getting stomped by Lucian 5 games in a row without much place to gain some ground back in 3 of the 5, I will assume that he's right since he's more knowledgeable about the game than me, and showed me arguments that Lucian is indeed very strong.

Then, all players end up "communicating" (read as shout at each others' face) about their finds and tips and tricks (the most prominent example is ban phase), and proceeds to work "together" toward victory. All those exchanges often ends up siding with what pro does since they often follow safe and consistent strategies.

WorgslargAug 10, 20144 votes

Actually, you can. If I lock in Poppy support, I force my team to cope with it

They have the option to dodge the game, and you cannot force that from them.

What I mean by a meta is riot's semi-enforcement of the fact that not every champ can well play every lane. The ability to expect a general idea of what you will face in the coming game is an important thing, one i think league is much better for having.

It consistently changes because of perfect imbalance.

GuiltyGeckoAug 10, 20145 votes

I don't mind non-meta picks if they make sense and that person isn't trolling. For example, I don't mind things like mid-kog, or xerath support, or adc jayce, or jungle twitch, or top veigar.

What I don't like is when people pick things that just DON'T work, like jungle Leblanc, or cough support nidalee cough.

As long as you play serious and have a good reason to play what you're playing, then by all means, do so. Just save your trolling for custom games.

InsaneSamuraiAug 10, 20142 votes

Yeah sometimes people do things that just seem impossible to work, or they do things that may work, but they play it all wrong(usually odd supports). It's still hard to tell with the stranger picks though, for example, I had a game earlier with a Teemo sup who just took lots of farm and generally fed trying to harass. The other day, however, I saw one that was doing it for real, not attacking minions, using good blinds, and mostly only attacking to zone, and they ended up doing great down there. Makes you wonder how often bizarre things would work if people just tried to roll with it :)

ploki122Aug 10, 20143 votes

The thing is, "things that don't work" often are simply "things that I haven't seen work up until now". A great example of that is that for me, Ashe ADC is somethign that doesn't work. I've seen maybe 1 or 2 good Ashe ADCs up until now, and every other Ashes were blaming their support and going 1/6/1.

There are picks that would be considered trolls but if you only let the runner a chance, you'll see it actually works. I've supported Poppy starting roughly Silver 4. I've been called every single possible names at every single tiers I played in. Even recently I got asked by my jungler to stop playing it because I "never win a single game and have no pressure in lane". Yet, this is the pick that allowed me to raise from Silver 4 to Platinum 5. It's also my pick with the highest win rate. It's also the pick where I have the most knowledge of matchups (I can often call for ganks with the optimal timings roughly 5 minutes into the game). Sure, Poppy can seem like a shit support, but it's so terrible that I know of at least 2 players who still played it while being Challenger (they both fell to mid/high D1 now) and had positive win:lose ratios and bans targeted at them.

In a lot of cases, those "terrible" picks are in fact "misunderstood" picks.

NsevAug 11, 20141 votes

Well, there's a big difference between "omfg veigar top?!" or "omfg poppy support??!" and "I don't think this is a good pick for the following reasons [insert logical arguments here]". Saying 'everyone who says this doesn't work just hasn't seen it work' ignores the possibility that a pick is actually bad for reasons that can be explained in a logical fashion.

While it seems logical to do so, basing a pick's quality on performance isn't the best of metrics simply because, up to the very top level of play, champ skill outclasses pick strength massively. If I play Twisted Fate constantly, and have a huge number of wins with him, then I can happily pick him into Riven mid or Fizz mid, shrug when my team says I'm countering myself, and obliterate my lane opponent. I can even pick Twisted Fate for top lane and play against a hard-core lane bully, go 5/0 in lane with a 50 CS lead and carry the game.

All this means, though, is just that I'm one hell of a Twisted Fate player, not that TF is a good pick against Riven or Fizz, or that TF top is sleeper OP.

ploki122Aug 12, 20141 votes

Well, there's a big difference between "omfg veigar top?!" or "omfg poppy support??!" and "I don't think this is a good pick for the following reasons [insert logical arguments here]".

I've seldom seen someone write a thesis about why X/Y/Z champion is bad in a certain role when there's only 3.5 minutes of champ select left. That time constraint really limits the amount of arguing that you can do. Also, arguing will inevitably lead to worse results because your mind will be at least in the slghtest bit focusing on what you're telling to that other guy.

So basically, you won't ever se an intelligible discussion about a pick's worth in champ select or a game.

While it seems logical to do so, basing a pick's quality on performance isn't the best of metrics simply because, up to the very top level of play, champ skill outclasses pick strength massively.

Hmmm... no? If I pick itemless Sion jungle and win 95% of my games, I see no reason to go off trails. Even if there isn't a single logical reason to back it, as long as I win more games than I lose, I'm still most probably having a positive impact on my games somehow.

If someone climbed from Silver to Diamond IV on Urgot ADC, and he wants to go Urgot ADC in my game, I'll be ready to bet he understands something I don't, or that he's so fucking insanely good mechanically that it doesn't matter. Heck, if he asks me to change my style of play to do something else, I'll be ready to enter discussions to find a middle ground (no matter how hard I try, I cannot really all-in the enemy adc as Janna).

I see absolutely no reason to stick to logical reasons, when in fact the only thing that matters at the end is what nexus explodes last. Heck, if he wanna play Sion ADC because he's more comfortable than on standard picks, and tells me that he has been doing so reliably in his recent games, I'd probably go the extra mile and ask him what kind of support he prefers. What I want is not an argumentative/reasoning joust when I'm in the middle of a game, it's a Victory.

NsevAug 12, 20141 votes

I see absolutely no reason to stick to logical reasons, when in fact the only thing that matters at the end is what nexus explodes last. Heck, if he wanna play Sion ADC because he's more comfortable than on standard picks, and tells me that he has been doing so reliably in his recent games, I'd probably go the extra mile and ask him what kind of support he prefers. What I want is not an argumentative/reasoning joust when I'm in the middle of a game, it's a Victory.

I don't see what this has to do with my point about picks and champ skill, though.

ploki122Aug 12, 20141 votes

It explains more thoroughly why I feel that performance is the single best metric to measure one's succes, which is the one metric that should be important.

NsevAug 11, 20141 votes

I don't think top Veigar works except as a counter to a mage top or in response to a relatively immobile enemy pick. In most cases he'd just get stomped on after a few levels by Renekton or similar who can make him stun, eat the damage, sustain the health back then go in on him again and cut his health down until he has to b or die.

ploki122Aug 12, 20141 votes

Actually you can play a mean bruiser Veigar, building CDR, abusing that R scaling on the enemy mage and stacking APs through passive alone while building insane defenses and utility.

NsevAug 12, 20141 votes

I actually tried out bruiser Veigar in the past, but I don't think his place is top lane unless you're against a passive laner or are just relying on outplaying to win lane anyways. He starts out very squishy and plenty of bruisers can take advantage of that to zone and/or kill him early.

MattariasAug 10, 20144 votes

It's because the community is very sheep-brained, to be honest.

The5lackerAug 11, 20144 votes

Simple: Can you explain WHY you're breaking the meta in any particular way?

If you can't explain why you do something, then you shouldn't be doing it. Following the meta is a safe bet, as that's what's collectively agreed to be the strongest strategy at the moment. If you can explain to me why, for example, its extraordinarily crucial for you to take Veigar jungle due to some hidden strengths I don't know about, by all means, please do so. If you actually try making a case people will probably trust you. But if you can't, and you're just doing it because you feel the need to pretend to be clever, news flash: You really aren't. Blindly breaking the meta is just as unoriginal as blindly following the meta with the added downside of probably failing spectacularly.

Thunder DreamssAug 11, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure most people who "break the meta" have a reason. It's hard to explain complex math or detailed strategy in game chat and few people are willing to listen if you try but there's generally a reason.

The5lackerAug 11, 20142 votes

I'm willing to bet you a hundred dollars that at least half of the people who "break the meta" heard the term and want to feel clever, so they either pick something nobody would think of (because its terrible) and then when they lose they go "well I was trying to break the meta so it's not my fault."

It's also really easy to at least attempt to explain in vague terms why certain things should be tried. I do it all the time with my weird picks. "Quinn's got strong disengage and harassment, she counters most melee tops." "Naut's got strong CC and benefits from building a lot of support items anyways, it's just like a Thresh or Leona support." "AP Varus completely destroyes health stackers and they've got a Mundo and a Chogath, this'll be good." See? Single sentence explaining the context of your unorthodox pick or strategy. It's not hard.

InsaneSamuraiAug 12, 20141 votes

I think you are right, but most people don't seem to see it that way. It's likely because I'm in bronze, but generally even if I explain what I'm doing(I do try and plan things out beforehand), people still rage and demand that I pick a real insert lane champ.

Astral DuckAug 10, 20143 votes

I'm not against breaking the meta, just don't do it in ranked if you don't have experience with it. (10 games doesn't = sufficient experience, do 25+ games)

0range456Aug 11, 20143 votes

As long as the person playing the "non-meta" champion is good and not trolling, I have no qualms about it.

Taunt MasterAug 11, 20143 votes

wait... you're letting someone's rage stop you from playing something you want?

Why?

InsaneSamuraiAug 11, 20141 votes

Because far too often, the rage takes over the game. People love to spend more time complaining or arguing than actually playing the game, so I try to avoid giving them any more reasons than they already have to do so :)

Taunt MasterAug 11, 20142 votes

Because far too often, the rage takes over the game. People love to spend more time complaining or arguing than actually playing the game, so I try to avoid giving them any more reasons than they already have to do so :)

If you're good at what you do. Enjoy your game, if they want to ruin the game for themselves by raging, that's their choice.

You are in bronze. There is no meta in your bracket, so have fun with the game.

InsaneSamuraiAug 12, 20141 votes

You have a great mentality, but sadly it is kinda rare on the random teams. I do feel like that should be the case, but I've seen so many games ruined by random unnecessary rage that I'm generally too scared to try it outside of team builder.

PentaWattAug 10, 20142 votes

My friend be like:

top? If lulu was meant to be a support... Why can't top like lulu is doing in this meta?

Thunder DreamssAug 10, 20144 votes

The first time I laned agains a Renekton it was as Nami. I got first blood and took his turret. It was an interesting game. The enemy team did a lane swap and our adc never connected.

Basically, if you can reliably land those bubbles on Renekton (or other melee top) you can then harass them with your aa's and bouncy thing getting them low and healing yourself. If they stick around too long you can use your slow to kill them when they realize their going to die and try to run. Alternatively hold out till 6 and get the double knockup and as many aa's and you can in that time.

ploki122Aug 10, 20141 votes

I'm having trouble imagining that turning well, especially given that what allows Lulu to Top so efectively is her ginormous tankiness (that Nami lacks).

Thunder DreamssAug 10, 20143 votes

Like I said, lots of bubbles. I had my support Masteries on with 10% cdr and mana regen and was on fire with the bubbles. If I'd missed those I'd have been very dead but with them Ren just couldn't get close enough and my enhanced aa's do a good chunk of damage. After first back I had chalice and just kept healing up anything I did take, making sure it would bounce to/from Ren as well.

To be clear, I wouldn't recommend this matchup. I'm just saying I've seen it work and wouldn't put it past a creative player to master it to good effect.

gubigubiAug 10, 20142 votes

Whats also really funny is when I do something that doesn't normally get played and people say i'm copying voyboy. That was back before I even knew who voyboy was. lol

InsaneSamuraiAug 10, 20141 votes

I had that the other day, but it was a different name I can't seem to remember. I'm generally lost when it comes to that stuff, I know who dunkey is and that's pretty much it :D

ploki122Aug 10, 20141 votes

Well, isn't (VideoGame)Dunkey someone who makes mostly troll videos? Wouldn't copying him be somethign that's actually negative?

gubigubiAug 10, 20142 votes

Not really 9 times out of 10 the stuff he does is meta but he does really dumb things during the matches. Like just dancing in place and other stuff. He never really plays anything crazy its always meta for that champion.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 11, 20142 votes

Short answer: You can but it's probably not smart

Long answer: Pros breaking the meta isn't a spur of the moment "Hey let's try something crazy like Tryn Support". A lot of theorycrafting and practice goes into testing an off-meta comp. But even then, the average player probably isn't going to make a wise decision in meta-breaking or they'll use examples from a less-than-optimal rank to prove a point.

Let's say I pick up Tryn support for whatever reason and I win every single game. Tryn Support OP Right? Not really. I'm basing my results off a low-rank environment where the players are by no means professional. Another thing is that an off-meta pick will often require more skill than normal. It's why you'd see things like "Oh I'ma play Viktor top" at LCS and absolutely destroy the competition but when someone tries to replicate it they get smashed.

Bottom line is that if you think something is good, by all means try it. But just know that it's totally possible what you believe is a top-tier pick is just a hyper pub-stomp choice.

(And of course the generic asterisk for the possibility that you actually DO randomly find the next sicknastybrokenOP thing. It's super unlikely but not impossible.)

Thunder DreamssAug 11, 20141 votes

Pros breaking the meta isn't a spur of the moment "Hey let's try something crazy like Tryn Support". A lot of theorycrafting and practice goes into testing an off-meta comp.

I'm pretty sure this is what everybody dose. You don't just go Trynd support in champ select. First you figure out how you'll play it out and what you'll need from Runes and Masteries. Probably plan you build path. As for practice, that's what normals are for.

Let's say I pick up Tryn support for whatever reason and I win every single game. Tryn Support OP Right? Not really. I'm basing my results off a low-rank environment where the players are by no means professional.

So what? When I queue up for Ranked I'm playing in Silver, as is the rest of my team. I don't need to win any games in Challenger, I need to win in Silver where, according to you, I'm winning 100%. Why not take the easy win?

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 11, 20142 votes

I'm pretty sure this is what everybody dose. You don't just go Trynd support in champ select. First you figure out how you'll play it out and what you'll need from Runes and Masteries. Probably plan you build path. As for practice, that's what normals are for.

You would be surprised how many people go "I'll just make <x>" and pick any combination of runes/masteries they want.

So what? When I queue up for Ranked I'm playing in Silver, as is the rest of my team. I don't need to win any games in Challenger, I need to win in Silver where, according to you, I'm winning 100%. Why not take the easy win?

Because you're going to hit a brick wall when your dynamite pub-stomp strategy doesn't work in Gold, for lack of better terming. And it's better to progress by playing as well as you can without gimmicky picks. If you win by abusing the FotM, you're gonna struggle when it's not FotM anymore. (Again, another example but bear with me).

Not to mention the backlash. If you win? "Oh wow we won despite <xxx>" (Even if you did good) and be sure to tank every loss. Asides, why would you pick something that makes people argue? Arguing and anger will lose any game 90% more than an awkward pick will.

NsevAug 11, 20141 votes

The point is that it isn't the strength of your picks, but your strength with the champion and the enemy's lack of skill, that's deciding the game. Play Trynd support all you like, but realize that unless your skill as Supportamere goes up faster than your ranking, it'll eventually go from "easy win" to "oh shit I can't do anything".

ploki122Aug 12, 20142 votes

The point is that it isn't the pick, but your strength, that's deciding the game. Play Maokai top all you like, but realize that unless your skill as Topokai goes up faster than your ranking, it'll eventually go from "easy win" to "oh shit I can't do anything".

Thunder DreamssAug 12, 20141 votes

Very much this. Yes, my skill as Supportamere needs to rise with my ranking or I will start losing but the same is true of my skill as Support Zyra. If I'm not playing Zyra at a Challenger level then at some point I'm going to hit a wall and be unable to progress. It has nothing to do with my preference visa vi conventional or unconventional picks.

ploki122Aug 12, 20141 votes

btw, it's vis-à-vis, why are all french words used in english so awkward?

InsaneSamuraiAug 12, 20141 votes

Yeah, I guess it makes more sense if people don't think too hard about random picking stuff, but I try to do some theorycrafting beforehand(most of the time :D ) or else I'm really not likely to try it. I figured others do the same, but it really makes sense that very many do not now that I think about it :) Experience is a major factor too, for sure. If someone's played a thousand Kat games, hey let em support if they wanna try and do it proper.