Boards›[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

A Few More Humble Thoughts On a Big Issue

LuckyReden··18 votes·2,423 views

Recently the majority of discussion has covered Riot's announcement to rewrite large parts of the lore, I'd like to share my thoughts on this rewrite. Rather than automatically disliking my opinions, please read through, and then answer the poll at the end or comment with your opinion.

(please read the whole thing, but there is a tiny summary at the bottom of the entry)

I started playing league about 2 years ago, so i didn't really ever read the JoJ, but I did very much enjoy some characters. When I saw the Riot discussion about the lore changes, I couldn't help but be awestruck and dreamy-eyed about the epic pictures included. And it got me thinking about freljord conflicts and the epic battles that might ensue, and I had these glorious images of Ashe finding Avarosa's bow (i might have some of these wrong, its been a while since i read her lore), and Ashe rallying the people of a small village to fight back Lissandra's army (not quite canon, but its what i was thinking about). I imagined despite Ashe's great leadership, Lissandra was on the verge of victory. Just then Braum jumps off a nearby mountain, shaking the ground when he landed, and shifting the tide of battle. How awesome would something like that be?

   Something like that wouldn't happen in the current state of the lore.

The main argument against these changes are:

  •    By removing summoners, there is no relationship between player and champion

  •    The League of Legends is a unique aspect and is core to what the game is

  •    Removing the league also completely changes who characters are

  •    Removing the league removes any purpose for a Rift or 5v5 battles

Lets examine these arguments. Removing summoners also removes the relationship between player and champion: How so? Some people believe summoners do not fully control their champion, but that cannot be. Summoners have complete control over their champion, otherwise, what prevents evil champions from betraying their own teams or what causes them to fight at all? I think that removing summoners enhances the relationship between us and the champ. Now I'm not controlling the champion, I am the champion. When I play as Vi and I kill Jinx, it doesn't occur to me, "I just helped Vi maintain peace". No, what occurs to me is "GET REKT, I JUST STOMPED YOU". I believe that removing summoners will increase the player to champ connections.

The League of Legends is a unique aspect and is core to what the game is:

I have to agree with this one, the game as it is has been completely built around The League of Legends. Riot is trying to change the core aspect of the game, because they believe that the previous version of the lore (well the current version) was simply functional and was not good storytelling. The League of Legends is a unique pretense, but that is besides the point. Many people believe that the League gives more reason to fight, because champions have reasons to be in the league. But with the league, lucian and thresh can be on the same team, darius can dunk on his brother, and braum can beat the crap out of everyone. How are any of those scenarios appropriate given their lore?

  The League completely changes who some champions are.

Lets look at Jax; Jax had to use a lamp post just to make it a fair fight. Without a league, why would Jax need to use a lamp post, he wouldn't fight fair. Whoever wants a piece of the champ would get him at his best not when he's going easy. I agree with this argument, Jax would have to be changed the way Riot is going. Brand is imprisoned by the league, but without a league he would be free to rampage the land. Well this is great! That means Brand has chances to create cool conflicts as heroes arise to defeat him.
Why do any champions have interactions with other characters if it doesn't matter once they join the league. When the join the league, anyone can fight with or against anyone. So arguing that you feel connected to a character when u play as him, that you feel their motives.....Thats completely absurd! I agree that certain champions feel different than others, but not because they have different motives. Vi is a great example of someone who actually feels like a bruiser. Braum feels like a big tank even if he is behind. Xerath feels like he is overwhelmingly powerful. Cho'gath feels like a big beast. But Xerath doesn't feel evil, Cho'gath doesn't feel ravenous, and Kha'zix doesn't feel like "I have to eat Rengar".

   Removing the League destroys any purpose of a Rift or any reason of a                                  5v5 fight

Are you kidding me? This is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. In what multiplayer game has there ever been a reason for fighting each other? In COD, everyone shoots everyone, no one cares why their fighting, its because its fun. In Starcraft II, Terran destroy Terran all the time in multiplayer. In TF2, people play as the same person on either team, and they kill each other without thought. There's no reason in standard multiplayer. But in game modes like Ascension, it is lore related and there is a purpose. Thats what Riot is promising now (whether or not this is true remains to be seen), more lore related game modes and cinematics and things similar to the JoJ.

I believe that Riot correctly found the right core part of League, and thats the feel of champions, and their uniqueness (is that a word?).

It is undeniable that Riot is handling this poorly though. Something that has been "2 years" in the planning, and they can't reveal anything because its not "for sure yet". This is absurd.....how busy could you have possibly been for the last 2 years with other things? And you also claim you haven't been talking with the players because nothing was definite. THATS THE REASON YOU SHOULD TALK TO US. Ask us what we think about the decision you're making. This big of a thing shouldn't be a 'Do first and then ask for forgiveness' kind of a thing. When every single Riot comment is below threshold, that means you're doing something wrong.

Those were my thoughts on whats been going on.

Summary: I loved the way league was before, and though it is going to be a rough change, it will be a good one in the long run. Riot didn't handle this well.

21 Comments

mi ramfan9 votes

The change could be good IF it gets fully followed through on.

By "fully following through", I mean:

  • Lore universe gets taken very, very far; Riot takes full advantage of not being tied to the League of Legends in order to write tons of brand new stories taking place in the League universe.
  • Characters get full, fleshed out backstories instead of two paragraphs apiece.
  • Lore events cross into in-game once in a while through events like the current Ascension event.

Unfortunately, Riot's writing team has given us no reason to believe that something like this will happen. So instead, we'll just get another year of passe, whatever-will-buy-us-another-month-with-lore-fans lore until the next big retcons are announced.

LuckyReden2 votes

Yes I agree, this is something that will take time to become good. Riot has basically traded a functional lore with a high potential lore. I think if they had released it in larger chunks rather than dropping the idea, and then not doing anything for a while, this would have worked better. Its going to be a rough transition that will take time, but there is much more potential down the road. So I'm both excited and impatient

Khodexus3 votes

Two paragraphs would be an improvement over the new info in the 'lore' tabs they just released...

CupcakeTrap5 votes

I respectfully disagree with the assumption that the League holds the plot back. That might be true if one were to adopt this caricature of the League as a bunch of all-powerful puppetmasters. That's not my view of them, just like my view of Summoners is not mind-controlling creeps but helpful mage pals who support and guide Champions.

I don't see why "remove the League of Legends from League of Legends" is the solution, instead of (as necessary) reducing the League's power level to the point where it can step in to keep things from going apocalyptic but doesn't have the means or inclination to police every conflict. It adds a political and international dimension. Crucially, it also actually fits with the game.

I don't think removing the League gives Riot that much more freedom, but perhaps more importantly, I can't imagine how any amount of "freedom" would make it worthwhile to break the link between the game and what's supposed to be its lore. It's one thing to make a game modeled after a well-developed and popular fantasy universe. Here, they're going about it backwards.

mi ramfan1 votes

It's not a good thing AT THE MOMENT, but it could turn out to be a good thing in the long run depending on the content they put out. If for some insane reason the League's existence was somehow limiting League's writers, then we should see the results over the next few months. If it wasn't, then this was just another retcon and another black mark on Riot's lore record.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

If for some insane reason the League's existence was somehow limiting League's writers, then we should see the results over the next few months.

Yeah, I mean … I guess? I'm having a hard time imagining that, but who knows. Maybe they've been hiding their true power level all this time.

Arddun3 votes

I agree that this change can only be good. The whole concept of the League of Legends was to prevent large scale conflicts, and instead allow nations to represent themselves as champions in the arena. While that's a good idea, it really stagnates the world outside the league, and that doesn't breed great story telling environments. With that addition nixed from the world, it allows tensions to rise between factions, and it allows the focus to switch back to Valoran at large and the champions that call it home. That sounds like a healthy change to me.

As an aside, I never liked the idea of summoners. Why would you want to believe that you're controlling the champion? That cheapens their value considerably. It should be about the character, not some random guy that dictates what they do.

LuckyReden2 votes

Exactly! Summoners only weaken the bond between champion and player, and for some reason others argue they strengthen it. You just said in 100 words what i couldnt in 1000.

Khodexus5 votes

It wasn't to prevent large scale conflicts though. It was to prevent APOCALYPTIC conflicts.

Now they can go ahead and nuke Runeterra, with the new lore.

Tyravinor3 votes

I didn't vote, and I will explain why.

You make some good points, but unfortunately most of them are moot. Let's cut the BS and get right to the heart of the matter, agreed? League of Legends began as a Defense of the Ancients knockoff; a chance to capitalize on a great new idea and make it better. I think we all know this. It became absolutely enormous... it's the most played game on earth now right?

In this vein, Riot has become increasingly dollar-centric over the years. I will not speculate about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing because it's not relevant to the discussion. It simply is. New cyborg skins make money. The new half-naked ashe skin makes money. The new fancy-particle-effects-veigar skin makes money. The new cassiopeia lore does not, but neither did the old lore. In terms of the almighty dollar, no one cares about the awful new skarner backstory. Riot's developmental resources are obviously finite, and it's very clear how they intend to allot them in the foreseeable future.

Does the new lore suck, by and large? Yes, badly. Was the old lore much better? No, not really (have you ever seen diana's lore? Dear god.) I've read better work composed by schoolchildren. The writing and storytelling is juvenile, but it's always been juvenile. Until someone comes up with a way to subsidize 'champion lore' in a MOBA game (i.e. never), the situation will not change.

If Riot were a more forward thinking company, we might see more crowdsourcing of such minor details as character backstory. Many of us love the game enough to be more than willing to spend our time writing champion bios for free. As the thread creator pointed out though, Riot is more of a 'do first, ask forgiveness later' kind of entity. How unfortunate. Maybe someday.

C'est la vie.

LuckyReden2 votes

Unfortunately, you do make a good point, and (I think i may have mentioned this in the post) all Riot needs, is a functioning lore. Its a multiplayer only game, and unless they plan to release some form of single player down the road (highly unlikely), whats the point. I can garantee a huge quantity of League players don't care at all about the lore.

Tyravinor1 votes

And that's the other part of it. Not only does it make Riot little or no money, but also the vast majority of players don't even care about it. So let the rest of the players who do care write it. Have a contest, vote on the best stories. There are many, many players who could and would write infinitely better lore than what we have already (cough). It frees up resources for Riot to develop skins, characters, and gameplay tweaks... all of which turn into revenue. It would satisfy the portion of the playerbase which is unhappy with the current storytelling. It's a win-win. A win-win-win, really.

Come on Riot.

LUS Montplaisir3 votes

You make some very good point; however, there are many things that need to considered alongside your points.

  1. Riot's History With Lore: Riot has tried, in the past two years, a few different things with lore. They've begun experimenting with Cinematics, which is kind of awesome. They've also presented a conflict in the Freljord; and with the exception of Gragas, did very well with the retcons, reworks, and general presentation of that small conflict. The JoJ was fairly well written, and through the years, they've managed to present 3 dimensional characters surprisingly well.
  2. Riot's History USING Lore: Going back to the Freljord opening, Riot did a great job presenting the three tribes and their champions, as well as their main motivations and so on. However, they never really USED that lore to follow through on any narratives. Like, any. There were plenty of options to tell functional, thematically viable stories with all of the champions involved that were never explored or followed through on. Blackfrost Anivia was about as close as we got. Queen Lissandra/Queen Sejuani never happened, even though the overwhelming amount of Icons unlocked/utilized during the event where Frostguard (I believe, might have been Wintersclaw). Given that the same set of people are working on this lore set makes me nervous at best.
  3. The Management of THIS Rework: So, as we've all known (or ought to have known), Riot has been making moves in the past few years to kind of eliminate the League. It ISN'T something I agree with, but it IS something I can understand. However, once they've decided to make that announcement, there should have been a large-scale move to retcon champions and references to the League, or there at least should have been a solid statement indicating that that was coming forthwith.
LuckyReden1 votes

Definitely, and back to what i was saying about the Freljord, i was trying to hit on the potential in the Lore that is untapped, and if Riot wants to succeed in the lore department they really need to expand upon what they have. I would definitely agree and say that the Freljord is a whole lot of good ideas, that don't really make much sense together or have any sort of end to them, and a lot of holes. Like the different factions are confusing, and who are the barbarians, who does Lissandra control, if Ashe is the reincarnation of Avarosa, what about the other one of Lissandra's sisters, has she been reborn in some form? Braums lore acts as if he's is a legend long past, Trundle seems very blank, who exactly is Olaf in the entire picture of the Freljord. If someone could answer those questions for me, that would clear a lot up for me, cuz i never read the Joj.

LUS Montplaisir2 votes

The JoJ didn't really explain anything new by the time Season 3 started, so its not really relevant to the Freljord conversation. I suppose to clear things up for you; Tryndamere is the King of the Barbarians, and is ostensibly married to Ashe. They both have King and Queen skins, the marriage is implicitly a political one. So Avarosans have the Barbarians. Sejuani has people who's lore indicates she is directly affiliated with her, plus her own clans. Lissandra has Trundle and his trolls, the Frostguard (ancient protectors of Freljord), and have been, implicitly, slowly killing off isolated tribes and cultures within the Freljord. They all want to rule Freljord. Trundle: He's king of the trolls; he's also trying to rule the Freljord, but he's trying to be super sneaky about it and is allying with Lissandra as a means to an end. The Three Sisters: So Lissandra is the first sister, its pretty heavily implied that Ashe is either a direct descendant of Avarosa, or a reincarnation of her. The former seems the most likely. Sejuani doesn't seem to have any significant bloodline, and Lissandra is, well, evil as hell and apparently immortal. Braum: His lore is...ambiguous. It seems most likely that he has an exceptional lifespan, or is immortal. Olaf: He's...well, he's part of Sejuani's tribe. He's basically seeking out the most glorious death he can, because it was predicted he would die as an old, pitiful man. So he's basically decided "well, fuck that. Time to go warring", because vikings and all that. Hope it helps.

LuckyReden1 votes

thanks that clears it up.

AvariceSyn2 votes

I will forever remember the old lore, and should I forget, at least the wiki has all lores recorded. On that note, they can make any changes they want. But if they remove the League from League of Legends, I demand a name change for the game.

AkaiNeko42 votes

To take your points one by one (hopefully in a relatively nice, respectful way):

(1) Removing Summoners will not somehow increase our connections to the Champs. I'm not going to somehow magically know how Cho is thinking and feeling as he messily devours his victims, I'm not going to suddenly be a TACTICAL GENIUS like Swain, I'm not going to be overwhelmed with sadness and self-hatred by playing as Riven. That's not how it works. What the Summoner system did was not help us feel more connected to the Champs, per se, but to help us feel more connected to the events of the game. If I'm Garen, why am I floating way up here, able to see most of the battlefield at a glance, and not down there? But of course that makes sense if I'm the Summoner, and it feels cool when a Champ talks to us in one of their quotes.

They haven't shifted player emotions, from feeling like a Summoner to feeling like a Champion; they've just eliminated some of them, by killing our direct, canonical link with the events on-screen.

(2) The League is a unique premise. We agree there. The second part of this noe, however....

"But with the league, lucian and thresh can be on the same team, darius can dunk on his brother, and braum can beat the crap out of everyone. How are any of those scenarios appropriate given their lore?"

....no offense, but you missed the mark spectacularly on this one. See, these thing are still happening with the new Lore. The difference is that before, there was a reason: For some reason or another, they were on different teams for that match. Riot never explained how all that worked, but their Summoners were on different teams, or the councils they represented disagreed, or something. And no one really died - it was a temporary thing, undone in like a minute. But now, when Garen executes Lux, or Darius executes Draven, or Lee kicks Udyr to death, there's no longer any sensible explanation - or any explanation for how they come back a few seconds later.

(3) Yes, removing the League really does have some serious f***ing ramifications for a lot of characters. Why is Ahri there? She's supposed to be trying NOT to kill people - she was working for the League in exchange for research to help her. Why are Caitlyn and Vi there? Shouldn't they be in Piltover, doing their jobs as police officers? Why is Riven there? Massacring a bunch of people on a mountain doesn't seem like a great way to atone for her mistakes, especially as many of them are more-or-less good guys. Why are Swain and Leblanc there? Shouldn't they be ruling Noxus? Why is Sona there? Isn't she an internationally famous musician and performer of the highest caliber? What does killing people on a mountain have to do with her? And so on.

And please, stop buying into that whole "The League stops things from happening elsewhere in Runeterra" thing. Because it doesn't. S*** still went down just fine in the Freljord. And in Ionia. The League only got involved later - the Institute's primary concern is keeping Runterra from being destroyed, not from eliminating war entirely. Things can still happen elsewhere.

I'm....not actually sure what the point of the other half of that section was. It felt like it belonged in a discussion of Champ design. Sorry.

(4) OK, so this is sorta the big one, because this ties together much of the above. Here's why removing the explanation for the Cinco a Cinco setup of the League of Legends matches - along with us not being Summoners anymore, the reasoning for the improbable team-comps, the explanation for no one staying dead, the reasons for so many of the Champions to be there at all - ....

....

....dear God, do you realize that they aren't "Champions" anymore? They were "Champions of the League of Legends". That's....that's not even a f***ing thing anymore. Holy shit. That honestly kills me a little.

Anyway, here's why removing all that s*** matters so much to so many players, new and old: It pushes us much farther back from the game.

(ran out of room, continued in reply post)

AkaiNeko42 votes

We're not going to suddenly get to play out huge battles between Demacia and Noxus. We're not going to be dynamically attempting to stop Cho and Brand and Fiddles from destroying Runeterra, we're not going to get to explore any of these places or get any novels about these characters or anything at all like one might imagine.

We're still going to be playing game after game after game after game on Summoners (those don't exist anymore) Rift. The illogical character combinations will still happen. Riven and Garen and Kat, who don't even have mana, will still be able to use spells like Flash and Heal and Exhaust and Ignite. Combatants will still inexplicably rise from the dead.

What set League apart was that, before, all of this made sense. And when we played a match, no matter how odd it may have looked, it was canon. We were a part of the story. Every time. Always. Every match as Riven was part of her real, actual canon journey to atone. Every match as Orianna was one of her real, actual attempts to live up to her "father's" wishes. Every match as a Champion of Demacia or Noxus or Ionia or Piltover or Zaun or Bandle City or the Freljord or whatever was a part of their campaigns to help their homes, however indirectly. And hell, some of the matches might have just been bored Summoners arguing over who gets the rest of the cookies, who knows. Evey. Single. Game we played was a part of the big, crazy tapestry of setting and story and plot the old Lore wove for us.

The explanations weren't perfect, no (I.e., like I noted above, we never did find out quite how the League was organized, the relations between Summoners and Champs, how matches are set up, an so on), but they worked well enough and could have been improved. The Lore wasn't perfect, not by a long shot, but it was cool nevertheless and had a lot of potential. Same with the Champions.

Now? Now every game is meaningless. Every game has no correlation to the story, no connection to us.

Just like Defense of the Ancients II.

Just like Heroes of Newerth.

Just like Call of Duty.

Just like Battlefield.

The setting has either been enormously simplified or regressed - remember that before the League, Runeterra was edging ever closer to annihilation. So either that's just been removed - power toned down, Rune Wars partially or completely erased - or the nations of Valoran are once more within inches of wiping each other and the world out of existence.

And now characters are being simplified horrendously, which fails to instill any confidence in me that this situation we, the players, find ourselves in.

There're probably things I've missed or forgotten or whatever. I'm tired and need to sleep now. I'm happy to discuss this more (and really should probably do my own thread about it or something).

Tiropat1 votes

I voted 5 even though it is worded terribly

do you mean "I think it will improve later"?

LuckyReden2 votes

whooops, i left out the be in "be good", your right. I also accidentally put what do you thing. I meant think. This is what i get for writing on an ipad. Unfortunately you can't change polls for some reason.

More from [ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

Open Letter to Parents of League of Legends Players
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous860 comments
2,611
votes
Rewards for positive play
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous19,712 comments
1,337
votes
I don't like Boards
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous324 comments
809
votes
STOP ALLOWING LEVEL 1 ACCOUNTS TO SEND FRIEND REQUESTS!!!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous291 comments
679
votes
Wanting to do something special for an awesome friend. Riot, please help? <3
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous220 comments
614
votes
People that are telling others to kill themselves has to stop! Please help me get this noticed!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous605 comments
600
votes

More by LuckyReden

Whenever Riot makes an announcement.
Memes & Games47 comments
76
votes
WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS??
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous64 comments
32
votes
You are now a Riot employee...
Memes & Games122 comments
17
votes
Problems with New Sion
Gameplay37 comments
16
votes
Manliest Skin Ever
Concepts & Creations6 comments
10
votes
Practice Map
Maps & Modes2 comments
9
votes