Champion Mastery hits PBE (Few Question)

Helliom·Mar 12, 2015·2 votes·1,606 views

This is something really nice, however I like to clear up few things.

Major Question: Will it be spam games on Champ to get the Badges. (hope not).. It would be awesome if this to be based on Skill.... Like you will not gain higher tiers if you are not good at the Champ...( You are giving out skill Level after every game.. why not get the Higher Tier if you consistently perform on the Champ)

Secondly: How are you going to judge which lane the Champion is going.

It would also help in off-meta picks as people will know this guy is highly skilled on this champ and knows what he is doing.. rather than shouting Troll from the start of the game..

~~Sincere Request: Please make this Skill reliant.. rather than spam to get Badges~~

Edit: Keep it as it is. Just add the avg skill on a Champ after a certain badge.

Knowing how good a player is on a particular champion can help in building team around if required

24 Comments

Sir ArmaMalumMar 12, 20151 votes

Spam games

Currently, you will always receive points towards the next mastery rank with every game, but you will more based on your individual and team performance. That will then be compared against the percentile performance of similar roles.

lane?

Lane choice is treated equally in the mastery system, although it is only currently on SR normals so that may (speculation) change if introduced to TB.

Skill reliant please

The mastery system as of right now rewards better play but does not punish bad play outside of simply a microscopic reward, making it an attrition goal. Riot Socrates made that known as an intended interaction. Quote:

"Redditor: I am discouraged by this because it doesn't really show "mastery" of a champion but rather games played. Riot said that there isn't a demotion mechanism and basically if you play enough, no matter how bad you are, you'll become a master of a specific champion.

Socrates: Ranked is the only system that gives players explicit feedback that they are improving atm (and sometimes not improving). In reality, every game you play you are typically improving to some degree. We want this system to fill that gap with a combination of the grading system and progression system. The grading system is percentile driven - so earning a high score means you performed in the top x% of players on that champ in that position. The grade governs the point gains. Ultimately we want a feedback loop that feels meaningful and if we don't feel like we've achieved that we will reevaluate."

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=bQmyO17N,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-12T15:17:45.935+0000)

Currently, you will always receive points towards the next mastery rank with every game, but you will more based on your individual and team performance. That will then be compared against the percentile performance of similar roles.

Lane choice is treated equally in the mastery system, although it is only currently on SR normals so that may (speculation) change if introduced to TB.

The mastery system as of right now rewards better play but does not punish bad play outside of simply a microscopic reward, making it an attrition goal. Riot Socrates made that known as an intended interaction. Quote:

"Redditor: I am discouraged by this because it doesn't really show "mastery" of a champion but rather games played. Riot said that there isn't a demotion mechanism and basically if you play enough, no matter how bad you are, you'll become a master of a specific champion.

Socrates: Ranked is the only system that gives players explicit feedback that they are improving atm (and sometimes not improving). In reality, every game you play you are typically improving to some degree. We want this system to fill that gap with a combination of the grading system and progression system. The grading system is percentile driven - so earning a high score means you performed in the top x% of players on that champ in that position. The grade governs the point gains. Ultimately we want a feedback loop that feels meaningful and if we don't feel like we've achieved that we will reevaluate."

Cool .... so another useless feature.. People who have huge amount of times can spam games but even though they are badly skilled they will get Badges.. however people who play very few hours and even though they are skilled on a particular champ will not get the right badges

I don't care about rewards this really should be designed to help when playing with people in Ranked or Normals

Until and unless this is skill reliant this is wasted addition to the League.

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cool .... so another useless feature.. People who have huge amount of times can spam games but even though they are badly skilled they will get Badges.. however people who play very few hours and even though they are skilled on a particular champ will not get the right badges

It seems like both are viable ways to earn the badges. If you're skilled-enough with the champion, you'll earn it quickly. If you're not, you'll earn it very slowly - and almost certainly gain significant skill as you do so.

Also, keep in mind this is an early implementation. As mentioned on S@20:

We’re kicking off Champion Mastery with the first five ranks for each champion unlocked.

[...]

As the system matures, we’ll unlock extra tiers and rewards as we build on the program!

I think it's important to be understand both the intentions and functions of the system fully before offering too much condemnation or praise.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It seems like both are viable ways to earn the badges. If you're skilled-enough with the champion, you'll earn it quickly. If you're not, you'll earn it very slowly - and almost certainly gain significant skill as you do so.

Also, keep in mind this is an early implementation. As mentioned on S@20:

I think it's important to be understand both the intentions and functions of the system fully before offering too much condemnation or praise.

Hey my initial thought was now people will stop calling me Troll or say why you picked XXX which is a non-meta champ. When you carry or play well no one complains.. when team loses ppl always point to the non-meta pick...

Meta, non-meta picks are the only things that happen in LOL.. so this system where you check the skill of the player really help as no one will complain when he sees a [Challenger skilled X champ being played

The value of mastery goes down when you can get it via spamming.. It is not reliable and people will complain

insaiyanbaccaMar 12, 20151 votes

if you get it through spamming then i would think over time you would gain proficciency with that champ because you have been playing so many games with them

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

if you get it through spamming then i would think over time you would gain proficciency with that champ because you have been playing so many games with them

No offence to anyone...Do they all do... people wouldn't be stuck in bronze 5 even after playing 1000 games :D

insaiyanbaccaMar 12, 20151 votes

well it depends there could be 1000 games of trying the same thing over and over and thats why they are still bronze. also why does everyone care about your rank? i could care less about someone's rank

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

But a lot of people do. It helps in building a team .If I see a Hpercarry who is highly skilled i am willing to feed him kills and peel for him.. I would expect the same in my case. Also people complain less when you are picking an Off-Meta pick when you are highly skilled on it.

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The value of mastery goes down when you can get it via spamming.. It is not reliable and people will complain

Does it, though? Both methods of earning (lots of games, and demonstrating skill) have one major thing in common - they both represent significant experience with the champion.

The major difference is in how fast it happens. If you're phenomenal with, say, Leona - some 65% win rate and always efficient, with solid KDA/etc - you'll gain huge amounts of mastery with each game, indicating that you already had experience with her, and understood how she worked.

I'm not a good Leona player, so I'll have small gains. Over time, I'll learn to play her more and more effectively. In theory, by the time we both hit maximum mastery, we should be similarly comfortable playing her - though that's not to say you wouldn't still be better on her than I am.

Honestly, I really don't want this system to turn into "Ranked, but per-champion." There's nothing specifically wrong with that idea, but I don't want this system to be that.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Does it, though? Both methods of earning (lots of games, and demonstrating skill) have one major thing in common - they both represent significant experience with the champion.

The major difference is in how fast it happens. If you're phenomenal with, say, Leona - some 65% win rate and always efficient, with solid KDA/etc - you'll gain huge amounts of mastery with each game, indicating that you already had experience with her, and understood how she worked.

I'm not a good Leona player, so I'll have small gains. Over time, I'll learn to play her more and more effectively. In theory, by the time we both hit maximum mastery, we should be similarly comfortable playing her - though that's not to say you wouldn't still be better on her than I am.

Honestly, I really don't want this system to turn into "Ranked, but per-champion." There's nothing specifically wrong with that idea, but I don't want this system to be that.

Well if you put it that way then let the gain be like that.. Just add a hovering window at Champ select that show's the Individual's skill on that champ (Avg of the skill per game).. Let's say you are a Jinx Player with as "S" then I am going to feed you kills day and night so that you help us win the game.. It's a team game and every info on your allies help...

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well if you put it that way then let the gain be like that.. Just add a hovering window at Champ select that show's the Individual's skill on that champ (Avg of the skill per game).. Let's say you are a Jinx Player with as "S" then I am going to feed you kills day and night so that you help us win the game..

And heaven help the poor sap who's just trying a champ for the second time, yes? Or who isn't particularly experienced, yet? Or - god forbid - is just an unskilled player?

Because when you start making judgments like that, they're never going to learn how to handle other situations (like, y'know, being fed).

I feel like you want to apply a lot more meaning to this system than there actually is - or needs to be. This system is not intended to be a measurement of how skilled you are with the champion in question - Ranked itself helps demonstrate that.

Rather, it's intended to represent your dedication to those champions - thus, it's pure progression, rather than progression/regression like the Ranked system.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And heaven help the poor sap who's just trying a champ for the second time, yes? Or who isn't particularly experienced, yet? Or - god forbid - is just an unskilled player?

Because when you start making judgments like that, they're never going to learn how to handle other situations (like, y'know, being fed).

I feel like you want to apply a lot more meaning to this system than there actually is - or needs to be. This system is not intended to be a measurement of how skilled you are with the champion in question - Ranked itself helps demonstrate that.

Rather, it's intended to represent your dedication to those champions - thus, it's pure progression, rather than progression/regression like the Ranked system.

Ranked Doesn't demonstrate how skilled you are on a champion as you may not get to play the champion in you first 20 games lol.. Ranked is the way to to judge how good are you in this game

Secondly you can refine it .. i would seriously feed him if he has the highest badge and S rank .. something like the Rank doesn't appear until a certain badge (Tier 3- or Tier 4) is reached.

Finally i agree that badges should not be progression/regression but if combine the badges earned by and the avg skill you can judge somewhat how good a player is on the champ

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ranked Doesn't demonstrate how skilled you are on a champion as you may not get to play the champion in you first 20 games lol.. Ranked is the way to to judge how good are you in this game

I didn't say it did. I said it helps. And combined with the exact current implementation of this system, it would do exactly that.

A Diamond player with a high mastery tier (as demonstrated by the loading banner) on a particular champion can safely be expected to perform well for his rank on that champion.

By the same token, a Bronze player with a high mastery tier on a particular champion can safely be expected to perform well for his rank on that champion.

Finally i agree that badges should not be progression/regression but if combine the badges earned by and the avg skill you can judge somewhat how good a player is on the champ

How would you determine average skill except by a progression/regression system?

Honestly, you are literally talking about a Ranked-Per-Champ system, here. And that's not what this is intended to be - nor should it be. There's neither need nor benefit to break Ranked down by champion.

A Bronze player is a Bronze player, no matter what champ they're on. This system will not - and should not - show anything more than their comfort with that champ (and that champion's capabilities). And, frankly, that's all I think it should do.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I didn't say it did. I said it helps. And combined with the exact current implementation of this system, it would do exactly that.

A Diamond player with a high mastery tier (as demonstrated by the loading banner) on a particular champion can safely be expected to perform well for his rank on that champion.

By the same token, a Bronze player with a high mastery tier on a particular champion can safely be expected to perform well for his rank on that champion.

How would you determine average skill except by a progression/regression system?

Honestly, you are literally talking about a Ranked-Per-Champ system, here. And that's not what this is intended to be - nor should it be. There's neither need nor benefit to break Ranked down by champion.

A Bronze player is a Bronze player, no matter what champ they're on. This system will not - and should not - show anything more than their comfort with that champ (and that champion's capabilities). And, frankly, that's all I think it should do.

No offence to anyone: A Bronze player maybe be a D in most champs but he might be a A on one champ but he rarely get to play the role and champ. It does no where determine the skill on the champion

Seriously only thing this determines is that you are not comfortable in people seeing how skiled you are on a Champion ,,..

No it will not and never actually determine your skill level on champion if you are diamond and have high masteries.. It will be dependent on the Total no of games played and no of games played on the particular champion

No offence to anyone: A Bronze player maybe be a D in most champs but he might be a A on one champ but he rarely get to play the role and champ. Your Rank does no where determine the skill on the champion

The guy might have played 1000 games in total but played 100 on that specific champ and fared badly on it.. however he won 650 of the remaining games which put him Diamond. your rank doesn't show you skill level on a champ it shows how good you are on the game overall.

Finally all people do not PLAY Ranked because of raging and other reasons.. but some would like to compare their skill on Champ with others...

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Seriously only thing this determines is that you are not comfortable in people seeing how skiled you are on a Champion ,,..

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. But in case it means what I think it means, let me reiterate:

I have NO problem with the system you're wanting to see. However, I do not believe that this should be that system.

No it will not and never actually determine your skill level on champion if you are diamond and have high masteries.. It will be dependent on the Total no of games played and no of games played on the particular champion.

The guy might have played 1000 games in total but played 100 on that specific champ and fared badly on it.. however he won 650 of the remaining games which put him Diamond. your rank doesn't show you skill level on a champ it shows how good you are on the game overall.

Right. But if he only played 100 on that champion and didn't do well on it, then odds are good, his Champion Mastery for that champ is not in a high tier.

And if it is in a high tier, then it's safe to assume that he's comfortable enough with the kit (because he's good with or it because he's played it a lot) to bring the full weight of his other skills to bear.

Finally all people do not PLAY Ranked because of raging and other reasons.. but some would like to compare their skill on Champ with others...

So because people get angry about things in Ranked, they should... use a different version of Ranked? That seems strange to me.

I mean, I can't imagine it creating a particularly different impression: "Stop trolling, asshat! This is my promo for Tier4 Cho'Gath, and I need to win!"

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. But in case it means what I think it means, let me reiterate:

I have NO problem with the system you're wanting to see. However, I do not believe that this should be that system.

Right. But if he only played 100 on that champion and didn't do well on it, then odds are good, his Champion Mastery for that champ is not in a high tier.

And if it is in a high tier, then it's safe to assume that he's comfortable enough with the kit (because he's good with or it because he's played it a lot) to bring the full weight of his other skills to bear.

So because people get angry about things in Ranked, they should... use a different version of Ranked? That seems strange to me.

I mean, I can't imagine it creating a particularly different impression: "Stop trolling, asshat! This is my promo for Tier4 Cho'Gath, and I need to win!"

People most of the time get angry because some fools do only like Meta . Also Ranked doesn't allow you to play what you want it forces you to play what you get.. and secondly if you have no problem with people seeing your skill then you should not have any issues with Masteries being partially based on you skill.

And no nobody would say Promo because you are not going down... I don't want any changes to the current way to earn badges. what i just said is add hover in champ select which will show your avergae skill rating which you received at the end of the game (S, A , B)

JubbinautMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

People most of the time get angry because some fools do only like Meta . Also Ranked doesn't allow you to play what you want it forces you to play what you get..

That would be solved by Ranked Team Builder - which they're working on now.

I'm a little concerned about this divergence into Ranked specifically. I think you may have misunderstood my intentions in bringing it up.

My point was to indicate that using a combination of this Champion Mastery system and others that are already in place can give a solid indication of what to expect from a player based on their champion choice.

and secondly if you have no problem with people seeing your skill then you should not have any issues with Masteries being partially based on you skill.

I have no issues with a system showing exactly what you're talking about. I do not think that this system should do so - it has a different goal and purpose, which I feel would be disrupted by that refocusing.

And no nobody would say Promo because you are not going down... I don't want any changes to the current way to earn badges. what i just said is add hover in champ select which will show your avergae skill rating which you received at the end of the game (S, A, B)

The thing about that grade is that it's going to be constantly recalculated - every single time you receive a grading after a game, it will be based on different criteria. Scores worth an S last week might only be worth a B tomorrow.

Which makes averaging those scores less than useful, particularly over time - such an average would be completely meaningless after a patch that changed that champion, and might actually indicate worse skill after a major rework.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That would be solved by Ranked Team Builder - which they're working on now.

I'm a little concerned about this divergence into Ranked specifically. I think you may have misunderstood my intentions in bringing it up.

My point was to indicate that using a combination of this Champion Mastery system and others that are already in place can give a solid indication of what to expect from a player based on their champion choice.

I have no issues with a system showing exactly what you're talking about. I do not think that this system should do so - it has a different goal and purpose, which I feel would be disrupted by that refocusing.

The thing about that grade is that it's going to be constantly recalculated - every single time you receive a grading after a game, it will be based on different criteria. Scores worth an S last week might only be worth a B tomorrow.

Which makes averaging those scores less than useful, particularly over time - such an average would be completely meaningless after a patch that changed that champion, and might actually indicate worse skill after a major rework.

Hopefully they implement Rank-Team Builder. i wil start playing Legue again.. and yes they might have designed it just for the Champion Fimilarity... all I wanted was something to show how good a guy is on the Champ.. maybe some other time :D

TheJuzzoMar 12, 20151 votes

It needs to stay out of ranked.

Focus shifts from helping team to getting yourself some points.

This is actually a poor idea at first glance. Maybe they are not showing us all of it.

HelliomMar 12, 20151 votes

Ok Keep the reward for Spamming however in the center Circle can you add Average Skill Level...

Potato DocMar 12, 20151 votes

So my feelings on this subject: I feel that for each position that is played it should calculate depending on different stats, so an ADC would be more heavily influenced by damage dealt and kills. However kill to assist ratio would be essential in this to prevent ADC from demanding kills/ creating toxicity so in essence if the adc is within, for example, between a 1.5-1 and 3-1 ratio then it would maximize points, meanwhile a tank would be rewarded more for damage received and assists while deaths don't really effect the score and would gain an average score for kills. Dragon & baron claims would enhance a junglers score along side of kill participation regardless of kills or assists with everything else being average point gains, CS would be more effective with junglers and supports too (however the CS points are minute even then) Supports would gain a large amount of points in tiers based on the amount of wards they placed, and a large amount for assists.

In that way it rewards a player for playing their role, but doesnt really hurt them for breaking the mold so if a support carries a game hard going 10/3/17 then they get a ton of points, meanwhile if you are just awful at the game you would lose points or if you dont really play to the specific role your points are diminished from what they could have been. Its just a rough idea on how it could be implemented and increase team unity/ player mind sets without roles stepping on each others toes.

Dangerous ManMar 13, 20151 votes

lol if tanks were graded for dmg received, this would cause people to feed.

Potato DocMar 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pixel Molotov,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=bQmyO17N,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-03-13T04:05:17.062+0000)

lol if tanks were graded for dmg received, this would cause people to feed.

Not entirely, a tank that dies less means they receive more damage, it might sound reversed but its true, look at two tanks stats at the end of the game, i guarantee you a large majority of games will have the winning side tank having received more damage

Dangerous ManMar 13, 20151 votes

I play Sejuani support :) I wonder if it'll know.