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[General/Champion Discussion] Bad Karma (what do you do when your main fails you?)

MrBuffington··4 votes·1,918 views

Hey Everyone,

So as an introduction, I am currently in Bronze 1, was in Silver 4 last season. I know I still have a lot to learn and improve at in this game, but I have been making steady improvement (I was placed in Bronze 3 this season, been working my way up). That being said, I would really appreciate your opinion on my circumstance. Note: I'll put a tl;dr at the end of the post, I hope you'll read at least some of my explanation but I understand if you don't have the time (I can be a bit long-winded)

I'm creating this thread in hopes of it becoming a general game discussion (so that it might help more people than just me), but this post is sort of going to focus on one problem I've been having in mid lane, namely, I can't win games with Karma anymore.

So I play Karma mid a lot (even before Bjergsen's penta), she's my safe pick, someone I can pick blind into pretty much any match up and do well with, sort of like a Lulu or Orianna (imo Karma is a bit stronger early game but falls off a bit more since she doesn't have that huge teamfight ult). Lately though, whenever I play her, one of two things happen: 1) I win lane (~8/10 times I'd say, she's my main for a reason), but have a hard time transitioning that to a win like I used to be able to (either because my other lanes are behind or we don't have good teamfight synergy or I can't roam and try to snowball my other lanes without losing my turret since for whatever reason I'm vs a TP Ziggs/Heimerdinger), or 2) I lose lane (usually against a really good assassin, though it's usually pretty close) and fail to have much impact for the rest of the game even though I'm farming to get back in the game, keeping good ward coverage, communicating with my team, and trying to roam and snowball my teammates, working towards objectives, etc. Basically it feels a lot like bad luck.

I'm thinking this may be a case of bad Karma (pun intended, although I swear I'm not a toxic player; I don't know why the LoL Gods have turned against my Karma play), though this isn't the first time I've sort of lost my touch with a midlaner (happened with Nidalee and Gragas even before their reworks). Usually I just take a break from playing these champions and come back later (rekindle that love, y'know), but in those cases I had a champion to fall back to, whereas now, not so much.

My midlane champion pool/history is something like this:

  • Nidalee : Relationship Status: It's complicated. One of my longest running champions, she's the one that got me to lvl 30. Basically right now the problem is getting back to the level I was at with her pre-rework, as well her lack of CC makes her not quite my go-to pick blind.
  • Gragas : I already sort of had a slump with Gragas pre-rework, but even now I don't think he's well suited for midlane (though I've been having a lot of success with him as a support. Mobi-boots Gragas is hilarious/so much fun)
  • Leblanc : Always had a ton of fun playing LeBlanc, even before the Great Assassin Nerf of 3.13 pushing everyone to play her. My problem is I don't have Faker Mechanics on her, so I have a lot of trouble playing her late game. My thinking is that I need to learn how to make that transition into late game as any champion before adapting that to LeBlanc gameplay, where I have to focus more on my mechanics. Not to mention she's probably getting nerfed/reworked even more, and the permabans means I'm probably not getting to play/practice her.
  • Heimerdinger : I freaking love the Dongers. The only problem is I can only play him into assassins or dive compositions. I have a really hard time against long range or poke champions (suggestions would be nice :D)

Basically my other picks are champions that I'm either not thrilled about playing and/or don't feel comfortable enough on them to be picking blind (list after this paragraph). I know at my elo counter picking is not that important, but hey, I'm low elo, I'll take any advantage I can get, and if I can get a new blind pick main to get past this Karma slump (and also expand my champion pool), I'd love to hear suggestions.

Midlaners that I don't want to pick (blind): Yasuo Riven Katarina TwistedFate Morgana Lux Kayle Soraka Annie

Leading contenders for new midlaners to learn (ie. a champion I might be able to pick blind into most matchups, suggest some new ones?):

  1. Lulu : I think she's very similar to Karma, very safe pick, and I have had some fun playing her in the past, though decision making with her W and E are something I still need to learn (Do I speed myself up to dodge the skillshot or shield myself and tank it? Karma gave me both. Cooldowns are long-ish too, I just want to spam Whimsy on myself and run really fast. What if I need the CC or the damage more in a fight? etc.). I'm hesitant about spending the IP though, especially since I want Braum, but I have greater need for a midlaner than a support (also not thrilled with Lulu support; I'm terrible as Karma support, I suspect I will have similar failure with Lulu as support) PS: ty rito for putting her on free week, I get to try her out again tomorrow :D
  2. Orianna : Similar to Lulu, also a tried and tested mid for a loooong time. Ball mechanics are hard though and I just know I'm going to whiff a ton of Shockwaves.
  3. Ahri : A lot of fun to play, not that safe a pick, I think. Also that she's getting a price reduction the champion after next makes me want to hold off if I can (I'm a cheapo :P)
  4. Syndra : Ball mechanics are hard. Not sure if she's worth the time investment to learn until I have a stable pick, but that long range stun doe.
  5. Ziggs : Ball mechanics not as hard, but constant nerfs and gameplay that's sort of meh (for me) has kind of kept him on a little lower on my list.
  6. Kassadin : Permabans aside, not the most fun I've had playing league, but not terribly boring either. I also don't know if he's a safe pick, his early game still may be a rough point, but maybe not since his armor build works against AD mids, and he's a pain to play against as an AP mid. Even if I do get him though, not sure how often I'll be able to play him since, well, permabans OP.

If you've made it this far, thank you. Hopefully this post made some sense, and that I wasn't venting too much. Summary of what I hope you got out of the above post is below.

tl;dr : What do you do when you have a losing streak on your Main? (Also, what are some safe midlaners you can pick blind into most matchups? Also tips for playing these champions?)

Thanks for reading!

95 Comments

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

As a Renekton main I feel you. I actually have my worst W/L in ranked with the croc and very ironically one of my best ratios is Nasus. My best suggestion is to watch the meta. Don't feel forced into it by any means but just be aware of it. For me, I didn't do that and the surge of Renekton popularity in late S3-S4 produced a lot of people who suddenly knew how to play against a Renekton very well. Things like that and sudden (but inevitable) re-works will always shake things up. For some people it's a good thing, others it's not. Stay flexible and sudden changes will hurt a lot less.

Anyway, as for mid-laners to pick up I highly suggest Ziggs and Orianna. Ori is much more difficult, but if you can get her down well most other mages will be cake. Ziggs is on the other end though, not complicated by any means but still very viable. His aggressive laning can be a seriously good tool. If you would like I would be happy to give you some pointers on Ori, Lulu, and Ziggs in another reply. (I just don't want to hog all the comment real estate, I can be very long-winded myself lol) I'm Gold III.

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks for your help! I'm not sure how many other people are going to read/comment on my crazy long post, so take all the comment real-estate you want (I'm probably going to be taking a bunch too :P).

I finally felt like I found a good meta-awareness balance with Karma as my main mid, gets me that hipster-edge in lane and also having played a lot of other common mid laners, have a bit more knowledge against other players that they don't against me (+ if you saw above, my mid-lane champion pool has taken a few hits from nerfs and reworks, lol. Like, why nerf Karma, hardly anyone plays her). But alas, seems I am my own worse enemy...

My main reservation about Ziggs is that I don't think I have the same 1v1 kill pressure in lane (People usually run before I can kill them, maybe if I were better with my ults, idk). Like, Ziggs pokes, but [old]Nidalee/OldGragas/Karma poke. I used to have a lot of fun playing him during previous free weeks too, but lately for whatever reason just hasn't been as fun for me, I don't think the nerfs have hurt too bad...Maybe I should give him another shot? (What also worries me is that he's sometimes banned at my elo, more often than a random ban, where I might need him as a safe pick. Also I feel like he might have the same problem as your Renekton, where people know how to play against him too well)

Orianna is definitely a champion I want to learn at some point. Partially I think my ball awareness mid fight is going to need a lot of help, but she's really a champion I want to learn (her passive autos are awesome, not to mention it'd probably help my cs, lol). I just don't know if I've been having fun playing her since the ball mechanics/awareness is so intimidating.

My struggle with Lulu is, as stated above, I suck at managing her W and E cooldowns and decision making. She's probably the leading contender for me atm (no one plays Lulu mid at my elo), I feel like I could have similar success almost outplaying better assassins as Lulu, where Orianna and Ziggs seem like they would have more trouble (unless a stronger argument can be made for Orianna/Ziggs). I mean, once you get jumped on as Lulu, you can self cast ult (maybe shield or save it to trade with), polymorph to avoid damage or just selfcast whimsy to dodge everything, use your glitter lance for tons of damage. Orianna...maybe...selfcast command:protect, dissonance to do damage/slow them/speed yourself up, shockwave for more damage/cc disruption? And Ziggs only really has satchel charge as a response, and I guess you can spam all your spells on yourself after but idk, I've seen so many Ziggs pop in my day... Idk, that's one thing I really love about Heimerdinger, assassin is silly and jumps on you, E + RQ + Zhonyas + /laugh while your turrets shred everyone.

Maybe I'm overthinking myself in circles (I probably am), but another concern with Ori/Lulu is that I want my champion pool to be efficient, I don't want to spread my champion pool too thin but if I can play a good Ori/Lulu, in what situation would I play Karma again? Neither are ever banned or picked at my elo, and they fill pretty much the same role. Braum is also really tugging at my heartstrings for a buy (I only have enough IP for one 6300 champion atm, and I'm broke so no RP :'[ ), but the permabans on Braum kind of make me want to hold off buying him just yet.

Anyways, would appreciate any tips you have about these champions (if I don't pick them, it'll still help me lane against them), also any guiding wisdom for champion selection. :D

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

The funny thing is Lulu, Ori and Ziggs all have the same thing to get started on, and that's managing their aa augments. Ziggs, for example, can really put some hurt on people without burning mana. Lulu and Ori have more sustained and reliable auto augments, but the general principle is the same. But watch that early minion aggro!

Anyway to more specific tips, apologies if you already knew any of these.

#####Ziggs Ziggs

Your Q does not have to hit the champ directly, instead, you can aim for the minions near the champ to guarantee an explosion and damage on them. Since the damage on the Q is the same within the AoE the only drawback is this will naturally push your lane, which leads into the next tip....

Satchel is much more powerful spell than most think. While this may seem obvious, satchel can be a great escape or a great bit of enemy displacement. When using it as an escape it's most effective when it launches you and knocks the enemy back in the same blast. Naturally if you have an out use it but if someone's in your face getting the right angle will seriously do work. If you're chasing someone down though, if you satchel someone into a wall, it'll give you an easier time aiming your minefiled. Nailing someone into a wall on top of a minefield will pretty much 100-0 most champs if you have any AP behind it.

Minefiled lasts a whopping 10 seconds, which is one of the longest non-trap placements in the game. So placing it farther behind than you would think can serve as a good block even after the trading ends.

#####Orianna Orianna

Keep in mind her E, the shield, will do damage on the return. So getting her Q past your target and arranging yourself so the w and return also damage gets the little-used full combo out. If you're not doing well in lane leveling E first will do you quite well.

Orianna's auto attacks are a great output for damage without burning mana, the Ball shouldn't be used for constant poke or you'll oom quickly.

If a teamfight is imminent, save your W, and use in the middle of your ult for massive AoE damage.

Keep in mind your W E gives massive MR and armor fully leveled. getting the Ball on your frontline diver can be the single easiest way to get a great ult opportunity. But make sure you're going to stay in range!

The ult has about a 1/2 sec delay, account for it!

#####Lulu Lulu

Same as above, auto's can really do some work without burning mana.

Polymorph should always be saved for enemies, there are very few times that the speed boost will be needed for something simple better positioning would solve.

Lulu is one of the best picks against a heavy assasin/dive team. Enemy Kha'zix or Vi? Lulu will stomp 'em, and by 'stomp' I mean 'squirrel'

Lulu is also a decent top lane (same with Karma) they just suffer from early game mana issues. Getting an early chalice can really help with that, but it's a risk in top as you'll probably be going against an AD champ.

Polymorph is actually a projectile! So it can be blocked by Braum and Yasuo. I just learned that one recently.

If you have a low health target try using your e on a minion for extra reach on your Q

That's about it on my end, I'm sure I have more somewhere, I just need to go play mid again for a bit. Hope it helps!

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I'd say that's pretty consistent...

Hit the reply cap so I'll continue down here XD

My experience with deciding between early game and late game champs comes down to whether or not I'm comfortable roaming with them, because a good early game will only really help out your team if you can perform good, global effect actions like taking objectives and ganking other lanes. So if you aren't comfortable or simply don't like to roam, then by all means go for later game champs.

In other words, if you want to capitalize on being better within your lane, later game champs work better. Because they can contribute after laning phase whereas early game champs are meant more for getting a team advantage during laning phase. The tradeoff is this put you on a bit more of a reliance on your teamates' teamfight than your own dueling skill in a mechanic sense, but for an adc that's usually par for the course anyway.

As far as late-game adc's go I highly suggest to try out Twitch and Kog'maw. Kog'maw is a bit more on the risky side but he's starting to really some trending behind him, both can shred tanks and fighters frighteningly quick. If you like Jinx, then Kog'maw won't actually be too far off as far as playstyle goes.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

Hey! I'm another Karma main here. She's my similarly safe go-to pick for first-pick ranked.

First, I'll say that I have had a similar problem with transitioning Karma out of laning phase. In terms of other champs, I'd recommend Ori. Honestly, her qwe are not as hard as everyone makes them out to be to learn (though full mastery is ofc MUCH harder) - it's the ults that you'll whiff every time :P.

Second, it sounds like you're sufering from the same issue that I am - transitioning out of laning on ANY champ (the only champ I don't have problems with is Veigar, because by the time I finish laning, I can do whatever I want - if I split and they come to kill me, I can always take someone with me before I die, and teamfights are pretty similar).

I can give you some advice that's helped me, though. tl;dr, get your team ahead enough to make up for your lack of ability to transition.

  1. Don't roam as much. If you're winning your lane, you have two options: stay in your lane and make sure that they stay down, or leave lane and maybe help another lane. It's almost always better to make sure that their midlaner is not relevant, and take mid tower.
    The time that it is better to roam is when the lane you're roaming to is very equal, and they are low enough for you to get a solo kill. This kind of roam can snowball the lane you roamed to.
  2. Instead of roaming, put pressure on the enemy jungler. Especially if you're winning your lane, you can afford to spend money on wards. Do it - 2 wards per back, even if it sets you back in your build. But don't just ward your lane. Ward the enemy buffs, especially blue. When their buff is up, go and pressure it. If they don't know it's warded, you can often steal with an ult-q (if they smite early), or at least you can force them to smite it. When they do this, it denies blue from your midlane opponent, making it even easier to bully them (especially if you can get your blue).
  3. Take mid tower. This makes it easier to put pressure on their jungler, like I described above. Push constantly to their turret. Back off as soon as you clear the wave, though, so you don't get ganked. Use the time while you're backing off to ward, harass their jungler, take dragons with your team, etc.
  4. Karma specific: build item 3174 and item 3020 into item 3089 and item 3135 . At this point or earlier, if you get fed, buy item 2039 . Your peak power is at ~lvl 9 - you also get power spikes when you finish DC and Void staff - after that, you start to fall off (because tanks get tanky enough to withstand your dps and burst, and carries get strong enough to fight through your shield). So it's important to press your advantage with an elixir, while it lasts.

Also, once you get into 5 of 6 item builds, your ult-e is generally better than ult-q, because it's often neigh impossible to land an ult-q on the enemy backline (if you can land one, it's usually better to do that), and the only way you'll do enough damage to their tanks is if you neglect any defensive items, which is a sure way to get yourself killed. In lategame teamfights like this, I like to take on the role of a second support - e your adc, root whoever is diving them, and use your q to either slow them, or hit the enemy backline if possible.

CaptainWednesday2 votes

You could always go a Utility style mage with late game Karma. While most main Karma mid, I prefer her in the bottom lane as a powerful "Poke N' Zone" support.

item 3151 Deals tons of damage late game with an enhance Spirit Flare or Focused Resolve.

item 3001 MR reduction and self-buff is great for teamfighting Karma.

item 3092 Even more slows and gold. The full Focused Resolve root will proc the Tribute passive all three times as well. Enables Karma to peel for carries even more.

Just some thoughts about late game scaling and builds.

MrBuffington1 votes

Much love to the fellow Karma main, and apologies in advance because I'm going to have quite a few questions for you XD.

I do want to learn Orianna at some point, but it'll probably have to wait till the next time she's on free week at least since right now I'm looking for a comfort pick, and it's going to take some time to get those Shockwaves down :P. As a side note, why do you pick Orianna over Karma (or vice versa? Strategically, is there some sort of team comp you see, either on your team or your opponents team, besides having a ball delivery system, that would make you prefer one over the other?)

This again goes back to my crippled mid lane champion pool, where the only champions I don't have as much of an issue transitioning out of laning phase are in bot lane (namely Tristana and Jinx, since they're hyper carries, and Gragas, since I can usually get my ADC fed in lane and start roaming for vision and to help mid lane). Like, Heimerdinger is even more of a lane-phase champion (unless you have strange/creative turret placement), and I'm not that used to new-Nidalee yet (late game spears are hard to hit).

Thanks a ton for the advice, I'll be working on applying this to my play:

  1. How do you deal with strong laning champions? Specifically Ziggs/Heimerdinger, It's neigh impossible to push lane against them, and since as Karma specifically, power spike is around lvl 9 (didn't know that btw, kind of got the feel of it but didn't know it was so early, thanks!), I feel like I could be making more an impact around the map than just trading CS (or getting solo kills) on them.
  2. About a Karma build (which I usually do follow that build, unless I'm vs an AD mid, in which case I usually go for item 3157 item 3165 instead of item 3174 item 3089 ) how do you feel about item 3100 on Karma? I'm not a huge fan of being less bursty but it's nice to have the sustained damage in a fight, since I feel pretty vulnerable between cooldowns.
  3. Are there ever situations you use ult-W? I feel like the heal could be useful, and according to the Wiki the damage at max rank seems comparable to ult-Q?

Finally, how do you feel about Lulu? I feel like Karma and Lulu are very similar champions (kit-wise and playstyle-wise). Thus, Lulu is a very appealing champion to me due to the similarities, but in the long term of champion pool building, I don't know why I would pick one over the other. Assuming I get over this Karma slump, and I get good at Lulu, I don't know why I would pick Karma over Lulu (it's sort of meta-pandering, but there must be some reason Lulu gets so much more play in pro play than Karma). The only reasons I can think of are that Karma seems to have more early damage (also not as team dependent, where I think if you're Lulu and your team falls behind, you're not going to have huge carry impact), and maybe Karma is just a more comfortable pick.

Thanks for your help!

Hyrum Graff2 votes

karma vs ori -snip-

  • Karma is more of a lane bully
  • Karma has more teamfight support-utility
  • Karma is better at kiting
  • Karma is more difficult strategically
  • Ori is more difficult mechanically
  • Ori's damage scales better into the late game
  • Ori can single-handedly win a teamfight with a well-placed ult

(Assuming I'm equally skilled at them - I'm not) I pick Karma if:

  • They have a mid laner who I need to bully and deny cs.
  • My team has a hyper carry adc
  • I'm duoing with our adc
  • My team has enough damage already (especially if we're on the squishier side)

I pick Ori if:

  • We have a wombo combo team comp
  • We don't have enough damage
  • We have a ball delivery system
  • Their midlaner is hard to deny CS - so I need to be able to scale as well as them (ziggs)

vs Heimer/Ziggs -snip-

Heim:

  • His turrets fire at whatever he last auto'd. They intentionally miss CS if he doesn't auto. Therefore he needs to auto to get all the cs. When he comes forward to do so, hit the minions near him with a q, catch him in the explosion. He's squishy and can't take many of these. If you get him low enough, you can do my signature karma cheese: flash (over minions)-ult-q-ignite, at lvl 3 or 5 (not 1, 2, or 4, assuming you're maxing q - more on this later). If they're at 40% or lower this will often get you first blood, along with a couple autos.
  • Ask your jungler for drive-by smites when he's in the area. Ult-q also should 1-shot his turrets. If he's standing near them and you can hit both him AND the turret, this is totally worth.
  • Sometimes I even take smite to lane, to keep his turrets under control. This is also really useful for harassing the opposing Jungler, which is something I do more when I'm in a farm lane - since you're often a higher level than he is, you can smite away his buffs.

Ziggs:

  • This is honestly my worst matchup as Karma. I try to harass him as much as I can - which is hard
  • I try to avoid his poke.
  • I take extra care to get every cs, so I don't fall behind.
  • I ask my jungler for a gank if he pushes, which ziggs often does.
  • I try to really play aggressive level 1 and 2 - that's when ziggs is weakest, and most junglers won't gank that early.
  • I push hard. He'll still get all the cs, but until he gets chalice, you'll be able to run him oom.
  • I contest his jungler's blue buff super hard, with my jungler (and sometimes my bot, too - it's not unusual to have a teamfight over ziggs' blue), and ask my jungler for blue - if I can get blue and deny it from him, I can play aggressive and bully him in lane (Note: WARD - their jungler will try to stop you from doing this)
  • I may roam more, and let him take my tower, then freeze the lane on my half of the map, and ask for ganks if he sticks around.

power spikes -snip-

You basically get a power spike each level you put in q. Lvl 9 is when you get q to max rank, thereore it is your max power.

  1. Builds -snip-

Yep, I also swap in zhonya/'nomicon vs an AD (sometimes). I only ever get Lich bane in two situations:

  1. I'm steamrolling really hard, so the extra damage helps me 1shot people repeatedly.
  2. My adc is doing very poorly or is not getting damage on their towers during a seige - this way I can get 1 to 2 procs on towers per minion wave (at the least, you

Ult-w vs ult-q -snip-

Ult-w does the same damage as ult-q's initial burst. Ult-w is really nice for trades in lane, countering tower dives or assassins, and in prolonged kite-fights against melee champs who are chasing you.

lulu -snip-

Lulu has more utility, is better vs assassins, and is better at harassing through minions. At high-level play, these qualities make her more desirable, because people are better at following up on catches (karma has trouble setting things up unless an enemy is very out of position), are better at staying behind minions to dodge karma q's, and you can rely on an adc, properly peeled for, to carry.

Ori is to Karma as Karma is to Lulu, in terms of damage and utility.

MrBuffington1 votes

This post. I don't know how to move it to the top of the comments but I would.

Ori is to Karma as Karma is to Lulu, in terms of damage and utility.

I can't say how helpful this is for grounding my champion knowledge. I'm assuming Ziggs would be on the far left side? Also do you think damage or utility are more useful at low elo? I feel like damage may be better to win games, but utility is better if you get behind, since utility is always useful, and damage is only good if you do enough damage?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

haha, I tried to be elegent - all I meant was this:

Damage: Ori > Karma > Lulu
**Utility: **Lulu > Karma > Ori

Ziggs, I think, is on par with Orianna for damage and utility (1 stun, 1 slow).

What wins games is the right balance of damage and utility, team-wide. If your team has an abundance of damage, but no utility, you often won't have the opportunity to get the fullest extent of your damage off. If your team has tons of utility but no damage, you can lock down your enemies all day.. and then when you run out of cooldowns they'll still be half health, and ready to kill you.

This is one of the reasons why I like Karma - if we're lacking damage, I can go straight AP and add damage with my ult-q. If we're lacking utility, I can build more cdr and become a second support for our team's adc. If we're lacking tankiness, I can build that way, and soak up damage with my ult-w (or go AP and just make everyone tankier with ult-e).

MrBuffington1 votes

I understood the comparison, just wasn't sure how to evaluate the champs before (like, I got the feeling Karma/Ori/Lulu were similar champs, one of the reasons I started playing Karma, but wasn't sure how their damage stacked up). And now that you mention it, Ziggs and Ori do have pretty similar utility in their kit.

In terms of making the biggest solo impact, though, like if you're in a position where you need to hard-carry a game full of potatoes, damage might be better? For example, I'm playing support Gragas, their AD is a bit too aggro so I ult them towards us and shove the rest of their team back, and my team goes chasing after the half-health Shyvana instead of deleting the full health AD carry. I'm playing tank Gragas, at most I'll have a Haunting Guise for damage, I don't do enough damage to kill their AD before they kill me. Maybe I'm just venting #bronzeplayerproblems but it's so rare that I actually have a good game; either my team isn't good and we just get steam rolled or their team isn't good and they get steam rolled. Or we all just pick non-carries and slap each other with noodles for 40 minutes until one team throws at baron. I just wish there was a way to tilt that insane inconsistency in my favor. And it's hard when you're not playing a super cheese champion like Akali because she can get shut down so hard and be worthless (ie. inconsistent). Sigh. Sorry about the rant.

That's another thing I loved about Karma, as you said, the flexibility in her build, but also her ability to navigate a teamfight, plus the psychological aspect of "oh, Karma is a support champion, she doesn't do dama--oh I'm dead" (this is what I loved back when I mained support, I would take Sona or Janna into 1v1 Showdown and whoop a Kha'Zix's tookis). Everyone knows Ziggs is a menace and wants to shut him down, where no one at low elo plays Orianna, and Lulu is only seen (rarely) as a support (I know I'm always surprised personally about how much damage a fed Orianna's shockwave does). Sigh, do you have any tips/tricks for Ori? Is she worth the struggle to learn for a person with my level mechanics?

Also, I meant to ask this in the previous response, but how do you deal with a good assassin as Karma? I know a lot of it is just mechanical skill, but so often I feel like I just barely don't do enough damage (like, I can almost outplay them. Almost.). I don't want to sit around and wait for them to engage on me on their terms. I know you beat assassins by just not feeding them so they can't do enough damage to one-shot someone (basically making them useless), but playing passive usually results in them just roaming and killing my other lanes. I push and take their turret, get good wards down, but it doesn't much matter when my team isn't listening to pings and is never alive. Was that more ranting? I'm sorry, sigh.

Anyways thanks again for all your help!

EDIT: Also considering Orianna more, I know I'm swapping a lot please bear with me, lol. Just wondering if you had any tips for her? Thanks!

Hyrum Graff2 votes

solo impact - damage vs utility -snip-

So, there are two ways to go about this one. On the surface, you're right - damage is easier to solo carry with.

However, targeted cc can also help you solo carry - even bronzies are pretty good at focusing the guy who leona stuns.

Do you have any tips/tricks for Ori? Is she worth the struggle to learn for a person with my level mechanics?

Not really. Practice. lots of it. I learned her in about 2 days while she was on free week, spamming nothing but Ori games.

How do you deal with a good assassin as Karma?

First, by shutting them down early. Most assassins can't actually assassinate pre-6. So you go very aggro on them and try to deny them as much cs as possible. Most are melee, so when they go in to lasthit, root them, then hit q when the tether finishes. Ult-w if you're below 80% hp, otherwise, ult q (using the root, so you get both parts - you can do this even with a level 1 root, if you shoot your ult-q just before the tether completes). In this respect, Zed is the hardest for me to deal with.

Second, when they finally hit 6 and have assassination potential, you have 3 tools to deal with this.

  1. Exhuast. The second they ult you, you exhuast them, to avoid half their ult damage.
  2. Zonya's. I almost always rush this against an assassin.
  3. Your shield and heal.

So, my typical, "getting assassinated, what do I do?" pattern is:

Exhaust > shield > ult-w > zhonya > ... > profit

Dealing barely short of the damage you need -snip-

It's all about hitting the q's. If you're hitting your q's and weaving autos in between (for more damage, and for max cdr on your ult), and you still feel like you don't quite deal enough damage, my question is "Enough damage for what? If the answer is "to kill them," that's why you take ignite. Never underestimate the power of Flash-ultQ-ignite at early levels ;) I'll add you in game and you'll see what I mean :P

playing passive -snip-

Yeah, passive play vs assassins (early at least) is no good. You need to go aggressive and make them fight for every cs.

EDIT: Also considering Orianna more, I know I'm swapping a lot please bear with me, lol. Just wondering if you had any tips for her? Thanks!

I'm not really an Ori main, so I'm not sure what I can give you here... Don't underestimate the value of the extra armor and MR on her shield - it lets her win pretty much any trade.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

We hit the thread depth limit, so I'll reply here.

Zed's hard because it's very hard to stop him from farming, and his shadow swap makes short work of your tether.

Lulu -snip-

Pretty much agreed.

Morgana -snip-

Actually I hadn't thought of that - she's a very good soloQ midlaner.

  • She does a lot of damage
  • She's hard to stop from farming
  • Her shield can help your dumb adc not get caught out
  • Good teamfighting
  • Her q is good for picks - which are the key to winning (and are easy to get, in low elo)
MrBuffington1 votes

I also just realized Morg's power, partially from this one game I played against a Morg mid and got demolished, partially because I realize she, sort of like Karma, has that whole 'supports do no damage' vibe since everyone pretty much just plays her support now. I will, however, probably need to spam "YES I'M GOING MID LANE AS MORGANA, NO THAT ISN'T A TYPO" in champ select though, lol.

So. One thing I want to know now. You know how QSS gets rid of death mark? Does Morg Black Shield prevent death mark?? (I don't really expect you to know this, just bringing it up as a thought)

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I don't believe shield prevents death mark from being applied or detonating, since it isn't cc. And it deals physical damage, so that won't be blocked either. But you rush zhonya's anyway on morg, so that matchup shouldn't be terrible. If he ults you, just r-q-w him and zhonya's.

MrBuffington1 votes

Well, it was worth a shot :P. Thanks!

Angry Monster2 votes

So i hate the term main for champs. You may main a lane but mainging a champ unless your Diamond is bad. You should have a champ pool of at least 3 in everylane that you main.

I am not even sure i understand you play style based off your 4 champs u posted. So i think you should look to a play style that you want. From their find champs that work with your play style. Just randomly picking champs is not a good way to go

MrBuffington3 votes

Right, just a bit of jargon I adopted for the sake of clarity/common language. When I say I main Karma, I mean she's my safe pick, I play her when I'm picking blind into mid lane. In all honesty, I don't really main a lane or a champion, I think in my elo you have to be flexible, since a lot of players are only good at one role or one champion, and it's better to be able to give that up since if you force someone into a role they're not comfortable with, you're basically playing 4v5 (for example, I am god-awful at jungle.)

As for the four champions I listed, it was more of me telling a story of the champions I (used to) play, ones I practiced and so on. Mostly it was to make the point that I'm lacking a fall back champion at the moment, I'm in a bit of a pinch since most of my old champions have been reworked completely or aren't good for picking blind. I don't play too much Nidalee in ranked anymore since I'm still getting used to her rework (and I think she's getting buffed next patch, minor things like adjusting spear width and mana costs on Primal Surge, so waiting till she's set before I really start playing her again). Gragas I only play as a support, and LeBlanc I try not to play anymore.

If I had to say what my playstyle is, I'd say I like heavy poke with some all-in potential. LeBlanc was sort of a wildcard since she's fun to play, which is really a lot of what determines my champion pool, I have to like the champion to be able to play them.

Thanks for the response!

Aluminiun Foil V2 votes

Syndra Syndra is a quite safe pick in most lanes, due to her good cc, decent scale into late game, and if you get a few kills you can burst down most enemies before they even know what hit them. Scales well into late game, deals good damage, has aoe cc etc etc.

Granted, it takes a good while to learn her ball mechanics, and to maximize the damage on her ult, but she's definitely worth the time and effort you put on it. I enjoy playing her quite agressively, you can go agressive as low as level 1 with her extremely low cooldown Q (3.8 sec cd), and at lvl 2-3 her kill potential increases by alot, as well as at level 6, with her ult. Her only downside is her lack of escapes, however, a good ward and your stun are more than enough to keep most junglers at bay. Generally, picking her against champions that NEED to play passive is a guaranteed win. (Kind of like Akali, without her ult she's nothing. You can EASILY get a good few kills off of her in the meantime, or just zone her out so hard that when you're 6, she's still 4 and you can still kill her easily.)

Then again, I love playing her really agressive against most lanes. Except Kayle. Cuz f- that ult and heal.

TL;DR - Pick Syndra, 80% of the time, you'll win every time.

MrBuffington1 votes

First Syndra vote I've seen since I put up this thread, lol, thanks for the input! I think I want to learn Syndra at some point, but as with Orianna, the mechanics may take some time to learn, I'm sort of looking for a quick fix as far as another champion to pick up atm. Thanks for the input though!

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I'll put in another syndra vote - I just hasn't thought of her, but she's a huge lane bully with the potential to solocarry games.

When my lane opponent is syndra, I pretty much can only win if I'm playing Karma.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, I put her on my radar for champs to look out for/to try out since she seems to have a lot of success in pro play. Seems a bit more like a carry than a safer pick, though, even though her stun is great for keeping people far away.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

She is a carry, but she's also a pretty safe pick, since a good syndra shats all over most mid picks (actually, just most of everybody). (Note: a good syndra. Stick with her - she takes time).

Dyonas2 votes

Syndra, Orianna, Ziggs and Kassadin are my better mids. Out of those the easiest is, without a doubt, Ziggs.

  • Ziggs is complained about for a good reason and even with the 4.11 changes they don't change things much at all for him.
  • Syndra has the most burst potential with 1 item but if you're not comfortable practicing the ball mechanics she may not be for you.
  • Orianna is similar to Syndra in zoning potential but you only have 1 ball to worry about and it doesn't vanish after a few seconds plus she has the utility to help the team late game. For overall safety she's probably second only to Ziggs.
  • Kassadin is a love / hate for a lot. Those who play him love him (generally) and those who face him cry out for nerfs. He's been hit a lot with the nerf bat and early laning can be painful especially against longer range poke and assassins but if you can get past that to 11+ and get a few items you can get going and help snowball lanes.

Alternatives? What about Malzahar? His biggest issue is mobility with his very slow movement speed but he can compete with pretty much anyone mid. As with Kassadin he's got a rough time against melee champs mid but it's pretty easy to play safe enough and then you can really make things painful for the enemy team. He isn't a complicated champ either and I'd put him on a level of Ziggs for ease of use.

Hyrum Graff

I'd disagree with you about Malz being easy. His basic mechanics are easy enough, but getting down your Q W and E before you ult them is really difficult, IMO (you need really good prediction of where they're going to walk).

Dyonas1 votes

I didn't say Malzahar was easy. I said it was pretty easy to play safe with Kassadin after mentioning Malzahar.

Hyrum Graff

Oh, yep. I totally misread your comment, my bad. Downvoting my own comments for less visibility/embarrassment :P

Dyonas1 votes

XD it's fine, misreading comments is my specialty. I enjoy using Malzahar and he's finally my answer to Yaswordo mid. The amount of times people ignore the voidling as well only to lose a good chunk of their health is funny.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Gunblade Malz OP? ;)

Dyonas1 votes

I'd never considered Gunblade for him but I imagine Malefic Visions and his ult will lead to some handy health gains.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I never have either, probably because there's just more that he needs first (mana regen, cdr, AP).

I would have said WOTA, but gunblade also gives AD for his passive (do voidlings lifesteal?).

MrBuffington1 votes

Ziggs is probably the most appealing to me at the moment, for my circumstance. I love that he has safe global pressure with his ult, just a bit concerned with how many more smacks he's going to get with the nerf bat. Kassadin is basically permabanned (I also contribute to this :P), I feel like his early laning vs AP champions is actually decent/survivable now with that magic shield though. Still, it would be rare that I get to play him, I think, so I'm not too keen on him right now.

Syndra and Orianna are champions I do want to learn, but I'm going to need a lot more practice on them.

Malzahar is a champion I've never been too keen on. Lack of mobility is an issue, especially that ult (suppressions are strange, especially when you're a squishy).

Thanks for the input!

EDIT: What are your thoughts about Morgana as a safe pick?

Dyonas1 votes

Morgana is a very safe pick mid. She has Black Shield and Dark Binding to help escape ganks and her wave clear is very quick when you get some AP.

MrBuffington1 votes

Sweeeet, also do you max W first on mid lane Morg?

Hiphoppopatomus2 votes

So, I may be a bit weird in my champion picks but here we go.

After being in Silver/Gold what I found helped me the most was to play champs that either had really high mobility/CC and had great scaling. So that, even if I lost lane, I would be able to transition to siege/teamfight phase and be able to do decently well.

Champs that really helped me were things like Anivia and Cassiopeia.
Levels 1-18 Cass's damage is out of this world if you have the skill to hit her Poison explosions, not to mention decently safe wave clear and fantastic sustained damage. Similarly Anivia has incredily safe waveclear with her ult and has 1.0 AP scaling on both her Q and E (if both parts of the skills are hit). And Ult + E'ing someone at level 6 makes for some ridiculous harass, considering it only takes half a second to do and E is an on target spell.

As far as strategy I would have to agree with Hyrum on keeping your lane opponent so they are useless or doing some roaming forward into the jungle, this way failed roams will still net you and your jungler some jungle monsters and take less time for you to walk to if it's something like Red/Wraiths. Anivia is really great at this because of her massive zone control from her Ult and W wall. In the jungle she can block off entire paths, leaving the enemy jungler stuck or walling off potential help from his/her allies.

Anivia and Cass aren't really similar to karma in any way that I can think of.. Anivia and she have a skillshot Q nuke? Hahaha.. But the reason I think they are so helpful as mid lane mages is that with a little advantage they can go a LONG way.

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks for the advice! Also thanks for throwing some new champions in the mix, I'm hoping the discussion may expand to be about more than what I'm concerned with. That being said, Anivia and Cass seem like two really great picks to consider. I salute you for playing Cass, she's really hard to play (for me last I tried her out, at least). Both of them can have pretty ridiculous damage and have good utility, though I'm confused if these are examples of champions with high mobility (you mentioned this helping you a lot)?

Similarity to Karma isn't the most important factor in my decision or this discussion, hopefully I haven't been suggesting that it is :P. On a personal note I do prefer mages with good poke and some all-in potential, I think it's a pretty good strategy for an average player looking for some consistent gameplay/performance. If you're very mechanically sound I'd say assassins are also very strong, but they are far more risky, especially in that if you can't assassinate a priority target before you die in a teamfight, you're somewhat useless. If you're ahead, it's sort of a dream, if you're behind, nightmarish. I feel like mages are less risky while being very nearly as rewarding, but that's just my opinion. Thanks again! :)

EDIT: Also, thoughts on Morgana as a safe pick?

Hiphoppopatomus1 votes

Cass is kind of interesting because you are rewarded for wasting your mana.. Consecutive spells cost less within a window so once you get a chalice or tear, you almost never run out of mana even with spamming spells (At max passive stacks I think it's like 50% mana cost?). So harassing in lane with her becomes really easy after 1 or 2 items. Her slow field is also like a mini anivia ult so maybe that's why I like her xD

I think the problem with both Cassiopeia and Anivia is that versus a champion like fizz who can dodge entire skills, and deal a majority of their damage in under 2 seconds, this works a bit against both of them. Cass requires a bit of time to get her full arsenal off (Q or W into E spam) and Anivia really needs to hit her skills or she is SoL for a bit of time, so dodging one skill on fizz almost guarantees he will win the trade or kill you in late game. The great thing about cass though is being able to unexpectedly Flash + ult freezing the enemy team if they are facing you allowing you free time to ramp up the damage while having your teammates follow up.

Yeah. I tried to pick up Leblanc because assassins seem so good but I don't have the mechanics for that ><.

As for champs with mobility, any champion that has some way of escaping early game ganks where the enemy jungler is guaranteed to be on top of you (pretend a xin came up behind you and E'd on top of you). So, Ziggs' W, Ahri's Ult, Kass's Ult, Leblanc's Dash. Things like this. They allow you escape sticky situations even when you don't see the gank coming if you have enough reaction speed. Kass's Ult is a big part of why he is so contested. Being able to flash every 6 or so seconds makes him incredibly safe and easy to harass/engage/kill people with.

Oh man, Morgana is like the safest pick ever. You facing an assassin? Throw your W on a wave, walk away, profit. Generally, it used to be that level 3 W would get the back line minions. Getting engaged on? Throw down your ult + black shield and possibly carry exhaust if the enemy mid is a heavy assassin like fizz/zed. After you get zhonya's, flash + ulting on morg into the middle of a whole enemy team becomes a great engage tool. Not to mention the free pick potential with just tossing dark bindings out. She's a bit difficult in lane if you want to actually kill because your Q is so slow and your W is easily walked out of. But if you just throw the W and walk away like a badass as you go roam to another lane while still getting the CS, it can be pretty annoying to lane against.

And if you really wanted someone who is ziggs-ish in their ability to be safe try Xerath possibly. I haven't been able to hit a single ult with him but maybe you'll have more success lol

Out of curiousity, do you use auto smart-cast on your spells? (Sorry for long wordy posts ><)

MrBuffington1 votes

Why are you apologizing for a wordy post? Have you been reading this thread/my posts specifically? lol :P

Fizz is so annoying. My only saving grace is that most Fizz players at my elo usually play way too aggressive/risky on him, putting him in pretty bad positions, as well as usually being the type of player that goes on tilt rather easily. Of course this applies to Fizz players on my team, so...

For mobility, Karma, Ori, and Lulu were leading contenders for me due to the fact they have slows and speed boosts, along with having shields/generally being safe picks. Nidalee was (and hopefully will still be, still adjusting to the rework) a good pick for me, the mobility is so awesome.

Sounds kind of like my experience on LeBlanc, I got her because her distortion sounded like the best ability in the game, but mechanics aren't quite good enough to transition into late game (at this point, I'm so out of practice on her I can't even get through early game...). I just didn't like that there's so much pressure on an assassin to be able to one-shot a carry, if you're behind you really can't contribute much to your team.

Super relieved to hear that about Morgana btw. I'm thinking of picking up Orianna as a safe pick (I personally would probably pick Anivia or Cass situationally ie. when I'm not against an assassin, lol), just thinking I may need a fall back while I'm learning how to play Ori.

Xerath is a ton of fun to play. Unfortunately still seems sort of like a situational pick, but still, so much fun. And don't worry, I haven't had too much success with his ult either (assists = win in my book, lol)

And yes, I actually started smart casting all my spells and items relatively recently (<2 months), if you don't I strongly suggest trying it out (if you do already, ignore the rest of this paragraph since I'm just going to be talking about the benefits of smart casting, imo). It's a bit wonky to get used to at first (I may have had an easier time of it because I was playing a lot of Riven before, and all her abilities, aside from the second half of her ult, are smart casted) but it honestly didn't take too long to get used to, especially on champions whose ranges you know well, and holy moly do your mechanics improve afterwards. It's seriously the thing that allowed me to play LeBlanc with any level of competency (for a while, at least). As an aside, also is the reason I avoid Veigar and Karthus, since I'm lazy and don't want to switch up my controls so I'm not smartcasting the stun/wall, respectively (you can change this rather quickly and easily in the game menu, I'm just lazy/forgetful). If you don't use smartcast and want sort of a easier way into it, there's a way to show range indicators with smartcasting. I personally don't use this since, if I remember correctly, the spell casts on the key being depressed (unpressed?) as opposed to pressed (ie. when you lift your finger up rather than press the key). It's a minor thing that you could get used to if you want, personally I just found it messed with my timing (another thing you can do is bind smartcast to one set of keys and non-smartcast to another set of keys so you have both sets if you want, I found I never really went back to non-smartcast though so I just set everything back to default + smartcast all). And if you're playing a new champion and don't know their ranges, you can always just hover your cursor over the spell icon to get a sense of the range (another aside, hitting/holding A, I forget which, shows you your auto attack range, for when you're playing Caitlyn). And if you don't like it, switch back. As far as I can tell from the little time I spent watching his stream, Krepo doesn't smart cast his spells and he's been a top pro player for a loooong time. Sorry if you already knew all of this, these are just things I've learned recently and am excited about :P.

Hiphoppopatomus1 votes

Yeah, Orianna/Lulu definitely seems like the All-Rounder Midlane that can do pretty much anything and do them all decently well. I could definitely see these being worth picking up in the future. My only qualm with Karma is her lack of playmaking ability. She's just a good supplementary pick to an already strong team imo.

I most definitely always smart cast. I used to hate it and told myself I would always be able to play fine without it, but once I got used to it I can't possibly go back. It's so much more efficient.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, Karma doesn't really have that hugely impactful skill that can turn a fight like Ori/Lulu ult, but she does do well in extended, spread out fights. You can do ~old-Nidalee spear damage with a Mantra'd Q, assuming the person stays on the area for both parts, which I guess can turn a fight the way Nidalee spears used to (ie take someone out of a fight immediately).

Just got Orianna, she is a ton of fun, though she is going to take some time to get used to. Isn't as hard as I remember though, plus CS is so much easier to get now (my CS/min shot through the roof)

Brydaro1 votes

B3 (I was B2 a second ago), I usually play support or ADC when I'm playing for Ranked. My issue is that it's not easy to pin point whether it's my main that failed or my partner.

I cosistently play Leona, GP, and Twitch. Twitch is my go-to ADC. It's a lot more difficult since Riot drove some nails through the nerf stick before they wacked him. I've been flirting with MF and jinx, but I like Twitch for his tankbreaking attributes, play potential, and self sufficiency.

I play GP support when I'm teamed with a champion that relies on thier autos for most of their damage like Vayne, Cait, or jinx. His infinislow passive, AS/Ms steroid, and global ult mean I can pick-up assists and support my team everywhere.

Leona is my safe pick. She's tanky enough for me to screw up and dominant enough to not need a great ADC. I don't like playing her because I sometimes become a liability. I see opportunity, my teammate sees death, and I forget to ping because the window is tiny. This usually results in my death.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Lower ELO bot lane is a real challenge, due to the large amount of teamwork needed to really make it work, as well as enough champ knowledge of both the one you're playing and the one you're paired with. 2bh I find trying to find out who goofed is a waste of time, and instead should be better put to use by both adc and support thinking about what they can do better, even it wan't your fault there's still a good chance something could have been better. as far as tips go though I suck at adc, so I'll speak from a support perspective.

  • Talk about your strategy walking to lane/before leash. Are you going to be aggressive? Passive? Want to wait until you are pushing or being pushed? Maybe evn get your jungler's plan in there as well. Don't get to specific, more moving parts will just slow you down, but keep it vague like "I'd like to jump in at level 3 when I have all my spells." You may run into a player who simply doesn't know, say, Leona and uses that info well.

  • Don't dive. Most of the time it simply isn't worth it unless you're in a pre-made 5 and can trust all of your teammates. The damage you'll do to their cs and experience by pushing them out of lane can be pretty harsh early game anyway. If you can kill them and only take 1-2 turret hits, okay go for it, but especially with the upcoming turret buffs it's simply better to play conservatively and retain your lead.

  • Treat your carry's health like your own health. If your full, but he's really low, they probably won't go in when you do. Or on the flip side they'll go in and won't have the mechanical chops to stay alive.

  • Keep in mind the mute button is a beautiful thing. Anyone who's played support knows the classic 'support abuse' that bot lane sometimes has. Of course adc's can get flak too. But the great thing is that you don't need text chat to play the game, so if someone's starting to get even a bit abrasive and distracting, eliminate the distraction and keep your focus on winning the next fight. :)

Those are general tips, if you don't mind a lot of reading I have Support and Marksman(adc) Guides here on the CB as well.

Brydaro1 votes

Thanks for the reply, I'll be sure to read the guides.

MrBuffington2 votes

Thanks for the response!

So when I say "my main failed", what I mean to say is, I feel like I'm playing my role well/correctly, but for whatever reason I can't translate that into a win. Of course, there's always something I can improve on, and looking towards the mistakes you made in the game (you can always find one or two at least if you look for them) are a key part of improving.

Playing bot lane is tough since it does require a lot of teamwork, and you're matched with a random partner (unless you're duo). Part of being a good bot lane (or any role, really) player though is learning to adapt to the team you're matched with (and against). I'd pay more attention to Sir ArmaMalum's response below me, he's been a great help in this thread and provides consistently good advice (in addition to being a much better and more experienced player than me), but I'm going to add my two cents anyways.

Twitch is a difficult ADC to play, maybe not mechanically (although he does have a relatively high skill ceiling), but in terms of positioning, since he's very vulnerable to being caught out (he has no real defensive skill, his slow may help, but his stealth was pretty heavily nerfed). MF actually has one of the highest win rates, I'm not sure how she is since the BT change though (I think it hurt her quite a bit), Jinx is an ADC that I play a lot of, fallen off a bit lately since I've really been liking Tristana, but I do have a fair bit of experience with her at lower elo (was 1-4 as her after my awful placement games, now I'm 9-5, if that gives you any indication), I could give some tips I've had success with if you'd like.

I've actually experimented with GP support a bit, didn't find much success with him, but if he works for you, go for it. I'd say he plays a lot like Nunu support, and I think Nunu in general is a support/jungler that relies a lot on being a disruptive tank. I'd say relic shield is the way to go, especially since your pistol counts as an AA (last time I checked, at least), I think you can get the execute passive on it, in addition to the extra gold that GP gets from that passive too.

Leona is a tough champion, she's very heavily utility focused so typically does very little damage. As such, you rely on your ADC to follow up a lot (as with most supports. There are some exceptions, Annie for example does a ton of damage). I would say it's less about finding any random initiation space, but more about finding the initiation space your team can follow up on. What you can do is discuss strategy, for example, ping that you're going in when you want to play aggro, give a second or two for your ADC to prepare to go in (as ADC I'm usually switching between farm/light harass mode to man mode, it's hard to follow up as an ADC when you're in farm mode and your support insists on going ham at seemingly random times.) Sometimes you're playing a carry support and can do some decent damage to feed your ADC, sometimes (especially at lower elo) your ADC may be too outmatched by the other team to have a huge impact, you may have to put on your carry pants and make up for that.

Also don't forget as support you are not your ADC's babysitter. As an ADC you are not entitled to a support babysitter. After you're done reading Sir ArmaMalum's guides, look up ScrapComputer on Youtube, he's an ADC main that has a LOT of good advice for the game as a whole (and especially for ADC). His guides are VERY long (usually at least an hour a piece), but they are very detailed, cover everything from the basics you missed along the way to some pretty advanced tips. In general, both roles have their responsibilities on a team, much of the reason they're placed in bot lane together is neither of them need experience as much to scale well into the game (ADCs need gold, supports aren't as reliant on either since most of their job is utility and vision, things that support the team.) As ADC, you don't need kills, they're not necessary as long as you're farming well. As support, if you're ADC isn't doing well, support the rest of your team.

Brydaro1 votes

I thought about Relic Shield on GP, but I've found that the coin offers me more options. I can ult + coin to engage/disengage, I can E Coin to re-engage, I can coin when my E is down.

MrBuffington1 votes

Whatever works for you :). I used to exclusively buy coin on all my supports, but when they buffed relic and spellthiefs, I haven't really bought coin since, lol.

Brydaro1 votes

The other two support items are good but their contribution to most teamfights can be done with a coin. Someone's dying? Relic shield will help a little, Ancient Coin will help a lot. Enemies getting away? Spellthief can help, but Ancient Coin will solve the problem. I feel like the other two offer strength to the support but getting them over coin limits your contribution to the team as a whole.

MrBuffington1 votes

definitely, coin is a more team oriented item, all depends on your situation.

Brydaro1 votes

Under what circumstance would either the shield or the dirk be better than the coin? The coin is the best safe pick, general use trump card.

MrBuffington1 votes

I mean it may just be preference at some point, also depends on your support pick and how you're playing them. You seem like a pretty firm believer in coin, if it works for you, go for it, I'm not trying to convert anyone. For me, shield and spell thief's offer more combat stats, as you said they're more geared towards boosting up the support than providing team wide utility, but sometimes that's an advantage. Ancient coin can't help your team tank damage like shield, sometimes you can't run away or you already have great initiation, and sometimes your team may need the damage that an AP support with frostqueens can offer.

Also shield and spellthief's can be better for laning, since you don't have that active utility in early laning phase. I've seen some LCS supports buy one of the two for laning phase and sell them later for coin if their team needs that tool.

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