Boards›[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

@Riot: Serious Suggestions for Runes

Particicutor··30 votes·2,311 views

I feel that even with all the information about the rune page rework, nobody has tackled the elephant in the room: how runes and rune pages are sold.

There are multiple pain points when it comes to how buying runes work:

Tier 1 and Tier 2 Runes

These are almost universally acknowledged to be noob traps. They're useful for only ten levels before they're completely outclassed by their higher level counterparts. The consensus advice to low level players is to ignore them completely. Serving no real purpose, they merely ruin the experience for new players who often mistakenly buy them. I know I wasted many hundreds of IP on them, instead of unlocking new champions to play with.

Rune Combiner

This is also almost universally acknowledged to be a noob trap.

With the rune combiner, players can use the rune combiner to combine five cheap lower tier runes to get one higher tier rune. It's true that one can get lucky this way; I've gotten tier 3 runes worth more than the 375 IP I spent to buy 25 15 IP tier 1 runes. Overall, however, players rarely profit, since most runes are suboptimal. I got many bad runes, which I disposed of using a different use of the rune combiner: combining two runes to get one of the same tier. This is almost always a strictly loss-making endeavor.

In summary, the rune combiner is an inefficient noob trap with no purpose in League of Legends. After all, it's called League of Legends - not League of Rune Gambling.

Rune Pricing

The pricing of runes seems to defy logic. Higher-priced runes are not necessarily more powerful. While perfectly reasonable when it comes to champions, players buy runes for power. Making runes which players would not likely buy in the first place extremely expensive does not appear to serve any purpose; indeed, doing so homogenizes rune pages.

Take marks, for example. Flat AD marks costs 210 IP each and are arguably the best mark for most marksmen and fighters. Critical Damage marks cost 820 IP each and are inferior to most other physical offense marks until late game. While I may want to experiment with critical damage marks, the fact that one critical damage mark costs almost as much as four Flat AD marks practically guarantees I will never buy them.

I can't think of a single good reason for certain runes to cost more than others. Unlike champions, which have varying levels of design polish, difficulty, theme, and demand, runes are simply stat boosts, with nothing differentiating one from the other except the numbers they provide.

Rune Pages

In an ideal world, players would experiment with different rune builds, introducing variety to the game and rewarding players for creating rune pages which suit their champion and playstyle. Yet, the current system heavily disincentivizes that very activity by only giving players two rune pages by default, encouraging players who don't want to or can't buy RP to simply reuse standard physical and magic damage pages. Even if season 4 runes drastically overhaul the system to encourage interesting new rune builds, the majority of players will still be stuck with two rune pages, and will attempt to optimize for the generic AD and AP champion.

It's true that you can buy rune pages with IP. However, there are subtle reasons why that is rarely done.

First of all, there is an opportunity cost. Rune page prices are set to heavily incentivize players to buy then with RP. Compare various the prices of champions in the store:
Each RP spent on a 450 IP champion replaces about 1.73 IP.
Each RP spent on a 1350 IP champion replaces about 2.31 IP.
Each RP spent on a 3150 IP champion replaces about 3.99 IP.
Each RP spent on a 4800 IP champion replaces about 5.45 IP.
Each RP spent on a 6300 IP champion replaces about 6.46 IP.
Each RP spent on a 6300 IP rune page replaces about 10.68 IP.
Each RP spent on a rune page bundle that would cost 16.96 IP.
I'm not counting champion bundles because they may include champions that players don't want, complicating the analysis.

As buying rune pages with RP is the most efficient allocation of RP, the only people who buy rune pages with IP are those who have absolutely no possible means of getting RP. Furthermore, buying rune pages with IP is a tremendous IP drain, forcing players to delay buying champions, which actually provide gameplay.

Even if one has access to RP and is willing to pay for rune pages, buying a rune page is a tremendously dissatisfying experience. When a player buys a rune page, they know that they're supporting the hard work and dedication of the Rioters who put their love into that champion, throughout conception, design, modeling, rigging, splash art creation, game balance, lore, etc. When a player buys a rune page, they're buying a repeatable UI element, something with minimal impact on games after champion select, which would cost Riot almost nothing to create more of.

My proposal:

Refund and remove everyone's runes and rune pages. Refund runes for their face value; refunding rune pages might be a bit more complicated, depending on when they were bought. Hopefully some compromise can be found.
Remove tier 1 and tier 2 runes, or allow us to upgrade them for the IP cost difference and remove the rune combiner.
Make rune pages free, just like mastery pages are.
Normalize all normal rune prices to 450 IP each and quintessences to 1350 IP each.

"Now Enshrouded," you might protest, "you're essentially asking Riot to give us free stuff!" I agree, my current reforms will definitely hit Riot's bottom line in the short term; which is why I've priced runes higher to their average price than the lowest price, which I did because

Here's a ameliorating suggestion: sell runes for RP as well! I suggest prices of 70 RP for normal runes and 200 RP for quintessences. These prices work out to around 6.43 IP/RP for normal runes and 6.75 IP/RP for quintessences. Players will be incentivized to spend RP on runes as well as champions. While in the short term revenues might take a hit from players using up refunded RP instead of real RP, this pricing change should, in the long term, increase revenues. I personally don't value having a part of the game that "can't be bought." After all, IP is fungible; players can simply allocate more RP towards champions if they want to "buy power" with real life currency. And frankly, runes are only a small part of the overall game. I would definitely trade the IP exclusivity of runes for free rune pages. In addition, as Keikomatsui mentioned, more rune pages mean that people tend to get more situational runes - and spend more IP (and if this change goes through, RP) on the runes.

In conclusion, I want less confusion and frustrating elements, and more variety and gameplay.

40 Comments

MasterXaL4 votes

Very well written post. It addresses all of my problems with the rune system. The ridiculous pricing of some runes vs others has always been something I haven't been able to understand.

If they removed tier 1-2 runes and lessened the cost of others (800 for some basics? 2k for some quints? What...) that would be a huge step towards the health of the (casual) game.

Particicutor1 votes

Thanks! The rune prices I suggested are below those ridiculous prices.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, I posted this now since we're overhauling the rune system anyways. It's a great opportunity to fix these issues that have been around since as long as I've been playing.

Zyorhist3 votes

I agree with most of your post, though I dont think that getting rid of Tier 1 and Tier 2 runes would be specifically helpful to those lower level players. I do however think that there needs to be a way to upgrade without creating too big of a problem. for example if I purchased the tier 1 glyph of ap for 30 ip, it would be helpful for me to be able to sell it or even better, upgrade it to the tier 2 one for the difference (165-30) of 105. There would be no more "noob trap" as they would always be useable instead of making them a pain once you hit the level tier.

Particicutor2 votes

I changed my post to your idea. This is a good idea even if it's more complicated.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

This is totally a good idea. It reminds me of how the new flexible bundle prices work, where you don't pay for the part of the bundle you already have.

Keikomatsui 2 votes

This was excellently thought out and provides a good argument.

Plus, runes in many ways provide a massive advantage to players who are either more familiar with them or have more RP. More RP leads to more rune pages some times, which allows for champion specific pages. As you often dont always know what you are going to be playing in a game, having three or four general pages is good, but having those and five specific pages for champions you intentionally play as when given the opportunity (and said pages are geared only for that champ) gives a very noticeable advantage when playing those champs. A Lux page vs a Swain page might be very different, but if you dont have a lot of rp you are forced to either get said pages and delay a champion purchase, or vice versa.

Particicutor2 votes

Exactly. Now that you mention it, free rune pages = more runes being bought.

I have a confession to make. The rune page sale before the last one, I actually begged a friend to gift me RP, and then paid her back, so I could get some rune pages...

Keikomatsui 2 votes

You're not alone. I had a friend do the same to me. Part of the problem simply comes down to having more RP, in this case, can lead to a distinct advantage in game. Which is something I really wish Riot would avoid totally. They try and I like that their profit model runs off of skins, but this is one small blip in that.

Vizra2 votes

I agree with almost everything, the only part i have a problem with is making players able to buy runes with rp, as that would make it more of a pay-to-win game there has to be stuff in the game that u can only earn through playing, and not make me pull out my credit card so i don't lose to people who spend 500$ at lvl 20 to have full rune pages

and to add something, how about having the option to build your rune page in champ selection like you can with masterie

Particicutor1 votes

I agree with being able to build your own rune page in champ select; after all, we'd be getting free rune page anyways.

The thing about "pay-to-win" is that it already exists: people can buy rune pages. Their runes will be far more optimal for the lane matchup than yours will.

Also, with my other ideas tier 3 runes will be available at level 1, so you'll be able to buy runes as you level.

We can't expect Riot to just hand us stuff for free.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I think tier 1 runes are cheap enough to justify buying a simple set for your leveling experience. Tier 2 is certainly useless though.

I think the rune combiner would be a good mechanic if there weren't so many awful runes. Competitive players use maybe 20% of the runes available, which is why the rune combiner is such a bad deal. I think that fixing the core problem here -- most runes suck -- is what really needs to happen.

Your suggestions on pricing suggest that you don't know how to run a freemium business model. I would be shocked if they were implemented, because you'd be taking money off the table without really adding that much value for the customer. If you want to do something useful to Riot on pricing, figure out some new way to give players value for their IP.

Particicutor1 votes

But is it really satisfying to the consumer to get random runes?

And can you explain why my suggestions on pricing suggest I don't know how to run a freemium business model? What is this nebulous concept of how I'm not giving much value to the consumer? Giving players rune pages = giving them value. Lowering the prices of rarely used runes = giving them value.

Consider the introduction of Lifesteal/Spellvamp quintessences and Hybrid penetration marks, which were some of latest runes introduced, if I remember correctly. They're widely used in competitive play. Yet because they were priced at the highest price tier, not as many people bought them. Riot may be revamping runes to make some of the weaker ones more effective. But if they're still priced as they are, people will naturally gravitate towards the cheapest ones.

Furthermore, I believe that with the increased IP costs on runes, and the additional rune pages to put them in, the revenue from RP purchases of runes will offset the loss of income from rune pages. Giving rune pages to people who never felt rune pages were worth 590 RP is revenue neutral. Making rune-buying with RP efficient incentivizes people to buy RP. Looking at rune costs, 3x200 + 27x70 = 2490 RP. Considering that on average, I'm guessing runes are reused in around 4 pages, this is still revenue positive.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

But is it really satisfying to the consumer to get random runes?

Lots of people like gambling. Others hate it. When introducing my friends to LoL, I have found that I need to shoo about half of them away from spamming the rune combiner.

I don't think removing the rune combiner is the right call. It's a feature that people want to be worth using. Make it worth using.

And can you explain why my suggestions on pricing suggest I don't know how to run a freemium business model? What is this nebulous concept of how I'm not giving much value to the consumer? Giving players rune pages = giving them value. Lowering the prices of rarely used runes = giving them value.

For the purposes of this discussion, value is customer enjoyment. Rune pages and cheaper rarely used runes are not very valuable, because runes are pretty lame.

Freemium business models with the paired currency system Riot uses need to put pressure on the free side of the currency in order to monetize their content. Riot is already reducing the pressure on IP by slowing the release of new champions. They need more IP pressure, not less.

If you want runes to become less lame, you need to produce another, more valuable, IP sink. If you don't, you will lose buckets of revenue as your other content gets harder to monetize.

Making rune-buying with RP efficient incentivizes people to buy RP. Looking at rune costs, 3x200 + 27x70 = 2490 RP. Considering that on average, I'm guessing runes are reused in around 4 pages, this is still revenue positive.

You're thinking about this with completely the wrong frame of reference. The way a freemium business makes money is by making people happy that they bought currency. That's how you get them to buy currency again.

If you make it efficient to buy runes with RP, the result will be people being less happy with their RP purchase, because runes are lame. It's much better for Riot if champions are purchased with RP, because champions are cool.

Particicutor1 votes

Whether or not gambling belongs in League is a matter of opinion. I honestly think it's a distraction from the real game.

I think you raise a valid point. Riot does need more IP sinks. Riot wants people to buy satisfying things with RP so they feel like they got value for the cash.

But aren't rune pages extremely unsatisfying things to buy with RP? By this logic (which isn't necessarily incorrect) rune pages should definitely not be extremely RP-efficient.

I'm not saying that my solution is the best. It's the best I could think of. You're right when you say that encouraging players to buy runes with RP instead of champions probably isn't optimal. But I'm pretty sure the current state needs to change, somehow. What do you think riot should do regarding how rune pages are sold?

Also, do you agree that runes should be more consistently priced?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

But aren't rune pages extremely unsatisfying things to buy with RP? By this logic (which isn't necessarily incorrect) rune pages should definitely not be extremely RP-efficient.

I'm honestly not sure. I think competitive players are generally quite pleased with their rune page purchases. I think casual players probably just hate everything to do with runes and don't buy them.

What do you think riot should do regarding how rune pages are sold?

My general thinking is that there is no way to make the rune page system fun, and you can't get rid of it for historical reasons. Better to touch it as little as possible.

There is some room to get creative about sales. I think they could do a pretty good business selling starter rune pages for each role (e.g. marksman rune page) that has the most common runes for the role available as a package at a discount.

Also, do you agree that runes should be more consistently priced?

I'm not sure that the precise values they currently have are the best pricing strategy; the gap between cheap and expensive is really wide. I believe it's a good idea to have variation of pricing in runes from a marketing perspective.

I think the more pressing concern is the ocean of lame runes out there.

Solan Stonewhip2 votes

i agree that the runes have to be addressed. but i'm reluctant to make them cheaper or charge RP for them. i mean, the simple solution to your problem is to just play more. then the problem is self correcting.

Bl3u2 votes

I agree with everything, except for your proposal. I don't think rune pages need to be free. I think a better solution would be to make rune pages editable in champion select. If they were editable you could experiment with your rune set up a LOT more easily, and in draft you would even be able to try certain runes against specific opponents. Plus, if they are editable, 2 rune pages would be enough for beginners, allowing them to spend their IP/RP on growing their champion/rune pool.

Solan Stonewhip2 votes

i like the editable rune pages. but can u imagine messing around with both runes and masteries at the same time. oh the horror!

Bl3u1 votes

That's why you don't go into champ select with blank rune/mastery pages. And thats also why you buy multiple rune pages so you can set up basic layouts for your champs and then only have to fine tune a small part of the rune page in champ select

Particicutor1 votes

Actually, most people simply wouldn't buy rune pages... and not everyone uses mastery pages either. I know Voyboy sets his up every game on stream.

Particicutor1 votes

What would be the point...? Now the sole point of Rune Pages will be to avoid being annoyed in champ select...?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

If rune pages are editable in champion select, there's not much point to buying rune pages.

Bl3u1 votes

Idk, as Solan Stonewhip pointed out, messing with rune pages AND masteries during champion select would be pretty intense. You would still want a basic setup for your champion so you can just make a few minor tweaks.

WildEyolf1 votes

I agree with this full heartedly.

Trading Aces1 votes

I wholeheartedly agree and hope this is not overlooked.

ULTRA OFTEN1 votes

I like your proposal, and honestly it could be implemented without too much negative effect on Riot, except for one thing. If summoners were able to sell their runes for RP, it would really break the system. That'd essentially give summoners a means to turn IP into RP, meaning no one has incentive to buy RP, and hence killing the business model.

If you recommended being able to sell them for IP, every single part of this post would be perfect!

Particicutor1 votes

What? I never said that summoners would sell their runes for RP.

I suggested Riot sell runes for RP.

ULTRA OFTEN1 votes

Oh wow. I'm stupid xD please disregard.

StrawHatZinda1 votes

you my friend are a genius. I fully agree with this. riot would be fools not to go with this!

Solan Stonewhip1 votes

ionno. either Riot has simply been ignoring runes for the most part (somewhat likely) or there is something more to this type of system. i would be surprised to see Riot enact this system. personally i have zero interest in ever buying runes with RP. but, that doesn't mean this is a bad suggestion either.

ShadowLite171 votes

Totally agreed, especially about the overpriced runes. I also think that the free rune pages is also very reasonable, because if not, they are pretty much giving paying players a HUGE advantage, i understand a little advantage but one this big is just un reasonable.

StriderVai1 votes

Sweet! I've just received my free Riot Points!

RiotPointCodes.oRg <<

BodyByDave1 votes

Why not include a random rune with each runepage bought? I always hated that I'd buy a runepage with IP only to have to grind another 20-30k to fill it out, getting a random rune with the purchase MIGHT make it feel a little less harsh. Idk just throwing out ideas.item 3037

Forbitten Rose1 votes

[deleted]

Particicutor2 votes

It's ok! I made a wall of text as well.

Honestly, though, I feel like rune pages give you more of an advantage than runes. What use are runes when you can't use them? I own both flat and scaling MR glyphs, which I bought with IP. But if I face an AD mid, I'll still be using flat MR glyphs because I don't have the rune pages to customize for it (I only have 6 total).

I totally understand the sentiment though. I hate pay to win games as well. I had a discussion with someone else here where he gave a different reason for why runes shouldn't be buyable with RP. You should go take a look at that and see what you think; maybe there's an alternative solution. I still feel rune pages should be cheaper, as they're unsatisfying purchases that give huge subtle advantages, and something has to compensate :/

IceColdRedHot1 votes

a different idea from me.Heimerdinger

tier1,2 should be kept. low level players need them to play with 30level friends as they are already handicap in masteries.

an irregular rune price should be kept. the basic runes (flat ad, armor, magic resist) are low enough to buy. the specific runes are more expensive with better effects for specific roles (running lifesteal runes in adc)

Particicutor1 votes

This clearly explains why Crit damage/scaling energy regen seals are the most expensive. The correlation between effectiveness and cost only really holds for the newer runes. And even then, it does not hold for things like % health seals.

Kedrona1 votes

Not only do I agree with most of your ideas, but your post was well organized, well worded, and pleasant on the eyes. Well done.

Zyorhist1 votes

Still waiting to see if RITO (RIOT) posts here...these are good ideas and well thought out, deserving of at least a mention...

@red

RazorLeague1 votes

Amazing ! I just got 3500 RP code for totally FREE ! Come and download code too

http://RiotPoint.eu/ <<

More from [ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

Open Letter to Parents of League of Legends Players
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous860 comments
2,611
votes
Rewards for positive play
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous19,712 comments
1,337
votes
I don't like Boards
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous324 comments
809
votes
STOP ALLOWING LEVEL 1 ACCOUNTS TO SEND FRIEND REQUESTS!!!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous291 comments
679
votes
Wanting to do something special for an awesome friend. Riot, please help? <3
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous220 comments
614
votes
People that are telling others to kill themselves has to stop! Please help me get this noticed!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous605 comments
600
votes