Can We Accept This Basic Truth?

Squeekems·Apr 19, 2015·105 votes·22,123 views

Burst Damage beats Sustained Damage (APC > ADC) Sustained Damage beats Tank (ADC > Tank) Tank beats Burst Damage (Tank > APC)

159 Comments

RiotKindlejackApr 19, 201541 votes

Rock/Paper/Scissors is the basis of all great game design! MtG has Weenie/Control/Combo while SC2 has specific unit counters as well as strategies that work this way (Weenie = Zerg Rush, Control = Standard, Combo = Fast Expansion). Fighting games like Street Fighter have Attack/Block/Throw, as well as L/M/H while Soul Calibur has Horizontal->Crouch->Vertical->Sidestep->Block->Grab.

Basically it's about making a decision that will either be good or bad depending on what your opponent will do. Thus a lot of the fun/challenge of PvP games is about knowing what your opponent will do (through prediction, scouting, vision, mind games, guessing) and then knowing how to counter that - the rest is just the quality of your execution.

I'm not a designer I'm an artist, so feel free to disagree. But the more you look at great pvp games the more you'll notice these patterns (and how they get badly disrupted when a hybrid like 'Bruiser' and 'Assassin' is added to the game - although 5 type loops also exist, they just look a lot more complicated; see Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock).

Edit: Just thought of another one - Camping sniper->SMG/Flashbang rush->Sneaky guy with knife

AkeydelApr 19, 20159 votes

What roles do you think 'Assassin' fits besides burst? atm I'm struggling to think of anything other than maybe 'Mobility' but thats a whole different dimension.

TehNACHOApr 20, 20155 votes

Some of the more challengingly designed Assassins like Akali or Katarina have built in tankiness.

Furthermore, a lot of people absolutely hate Zed, not because of his burst based assassination, but because his poke is consistent in lane and his Attack Speed is high out of lane, allowing him to DPS really well (and unfortunately, do more than a lot to challenge tanks).

The balance team has done a good job targeting what makes these Assassins questionable (Akali's Armor/MR changed to a speed boost, that minor attack speed nerf towards Zed), but if and when an Assassin meta appears, especially if some of our problem Assassins haven't been nerfed/reworked yet, you'll notice how Tanky or how DPS based those Assassins are really fast.

Father CthulhuApr 20, 20152 votes

akali has less tankiness since they took the MR and armor out of her W, but she still has a lot of sustain

TehNACHOApr 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The balance team has done a good job targeting what makes these Assassins questionable (Akali's Armor/MR changed to a speed boost, that minor attack speed nerf towards Zed), but if and when an Assassin meta appears, especially if some of our problem Assassins haven't been nerfed/reworked yet, you'll notice how Tanky or how DPS based those Assassins are really fast.

Spacesuit SpiffApr 20, 20153 votes

A lot of APCs are more about just blowing up the whole enemy team, thus softening them up for teammates. Assassins are generally more single-target

Chromatic EagleApr 19, 20157 votes

Wouldn't Assassin count as burst damage though, and Bruiser being sustained?

IcyPepperApr 20, 20155 votes

Bruiser has a mix of sustained and burst, which is why most of them rush item 3134 and item 3707 when jungling. Rather than stack the expensive AD items, they prefer a little armor penetration and a mix of AD and AS. They don't exactly 100-0 people, but they do it in a couple seconds of dueling when the odds are favorable. So really fast, bursty sustained damage.

AelvrApr 20, 20154 votes

I've thought about OP's jpeg, and I've thought of a rearrangement that might help clear up the roles a bit better:

Tank
Assassin
Mage
Marksman
Fighter

Put these roles in a star-pattern like OP, and the relationships work clockwise (a role beats the two roles that follow it and loses to the two that precede it). The basic information is the same (I used OP's relationships), but arranging them this way also leads to some interesting thoughts.

What do the tank and assassin have in common? They both go straight into the middle of a teamfight to get the enemy damage dealers. I would call that "reach," or "threat;" The tank has reach because he just wades into the enemy team, ignoring them; and the assassin uses some form of elusiveness to avoid the enemy team to go straight for the enemy damage dealers.

The assassin and the mage both rely on burst combos to get things done. Common knowledge, more or less.

The mage and the marksman both rely on distance/range to be able to stay safe while still doing a lot of damage. Their ability to kite is how they beat fighters.

The marksman and the fighter both rely on DPS to defeat their enemies. Some have burst combos, but unless they are dropped on a glass cannon, they tend to be weak. And, at any rate, when dealing with an opponent who is durable or can elude their burst combos, they are almost always able to start relying on some form of DPS to win the engagement.

The fighter and the tank, of course, share durability.

LankPantsApr 20, 20158 votes

The main problem I see with this is the assumption that mages beat fighters.

Fighters generally have an advantage over Mages since they have solid itemisation VS magic damage and generally have plenty of damage to overwhelm a squishy mage.

Occams RaiserApr 20, 20153 votes

I thought it was the basis of Pokemon. Even they had to expand the model after a while. rock paper lizard scissor spock is the way of the future.

CupkekApr 20, 201519 votes

{quoted} while Soul Calibur has Horizontal->Crouch->Vertical->Sidestep->Block->Grab.

This is bs. Everyone knows the best strategy in Soulcalibur is to press all the buttons as quickly as possible!

DSRM MobiusApr 20, 20154 votes

+1 for the MTG reference

aperson1Apr 20, 20152 votes

If you think about it, pretty much everything that isn't execution is RPS with varying stakes in a PvP game :o.

Sergeant StephenApr 20, 20152 votes

Water > Fire > Grass > Water

I mean, that's the best triangle of any video game... how can you forget that? :P

Mistress MadokaApr 20, 20152 votes

5-type Loops are Pretty. They look like PentaGrams! (Like in OP's picture.)

Also I love that the Support Icon is in the middle. It's just that Neutral role that helps all the other roles either overcome the shown weaknesses or Makes their strengths that much stronger.

Chaotic ReksApr 19, 201521 votes

Mordekaiser > everything cause hes numero uno

terkmcApr 19, 20159 votes

Morde does everything. With his full rotation he can burst. With his W and ult he can dps. With his passive and spellvamp he can tank Now if only he has some cc

FredartApr 19, 20156 votes

Toss on a item 3116 and you've got the cc covered.

Chespin2013Apr 19, 20151 votes

now if he could just get the gold for the items he be deemed useful

AbodyHUN666Apr 19, 20157 votes

When he gets a lane opponent who can't shut him down/doesn't know how to do so he becomes worse than Poppy though.

Grouchy PoroApr 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=Pwt6QNfw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-04-19T19:43:17.058+0000)

> everything cause hes numero uno

huehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehue

Sir RougeApr 19, 201512 votes

I actually can agree on that damn.

Butt wait

Trinity... Triangle... illuu... ;O nahh nvm

ModWulf HelhammerApr 20, 20155 votes

Get out here of Keyori :P

Jeddy017Apr 19, 201512 votes

Paper beats Rock Rock beats Scissors Scissors beats Paper

BetaDude40Apr 19, 201533 votes

"Rock is OP. Paper is fine." -Scissors

Silents429Apr 19, 20156 votes

That isn't the truth. A tank can be bursted and a burst can lose to sustain.

TauNoob1Apr 19, 201530 votes

{quoted}

That isn't the truth. A tank can be bursted and a burst can lose to sustain.

If your tank is getting 100-0'd he either soaked up a TON of damage from your carries or is probably way too far behind to be considered a true tank.

Rew711Apr 19, 20151 votes

why do you think Galio is still 4800 IP? because he's a tank/mage that is a counter mage.

TauNoob1Apr 19, 201525 votes

{quoted}

why do you think is still 4800 IP? because he's a tank/mage that is a counter mage. IP has nothing to do with a champion's role or counters.

Rinky DinkyApr 19, 20157 votes

Galio is kinda useless as a full tank imo

SirsirApr 19, 20158 votes

Hes good as a really tanky AP bruiser tho

item 3174 item 3001 item 3075 item 3068 item 3135 item 3083 for example.

Not pretending to be a Galio main or anything, but its really fun :D

Rinky DinkyApr 19, 20158 votes

Thats not full tank.

That is a good galio build.

Rew711Apr 20, 20153 votes

Actually, when I mid lane, I just get item 3102 first, and if its a mage, I get item 3065 item 3001 item 3089 item 3285 and item 3157 because his Q is insane. If an AD, I then get item 3110 item 3143 and . Hasn't failed unless my team starts having a rough time and we just take our loss.

PokladnicaZlaApr 19, 20155 votes

Aren't assassins under burst damage(which can also be AD) ?

WolfBVApr 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Aren't assassins under burst damage(which can also be AD) ?

Zed, the tank buster. Same crap with Yi. Yasuo. All them melee adcs.

Teridax68Apr 19, 20155 votes

That's true, though I think you can go further:

Mages outburst marksmen and lock down fighters, but are themselves locked down by tanks and bursted down by assassins. Assassins burst down mages and marksmen, who are both squishy, but have trouble dealing with fighters and tanks, who can survive them. Tanks can lock down both assassins and mages, but eventually get out-dueled by marksmen and fighters. Fighters can survive the lockdown power of a tank and the burst damage of an assassin, but get outranged by mages and marksmen. Marksmen have enough raw DPS to take down fighters and tanks, but lose to the heavy burst of assassins and mages.

Supports beat any combination of other two classes when with an ally, but are weak one-on-one.

As Kindlejack mentioned, LoL's classes feel more like Rock-Paper-Scissors-Spock-Lizard than just Rock-Paper-Scissors: tanks are Rock, marksmen are Paper, assassins are Scissors, fighters are Spock and mages are Lizard. Supports are the hand that forms the shapes. :P

SqueekemsApr 20, 20159 votes

I like it.

Virgin RayApr 19, 20152 votes

So is Aatrox both tank and sustain damage? Would that make him OP?

Occams RaiserApr 20, 20152 votes

Too bad this is true. I try to tell people this game is simple and they look at me like they are playing chess and tell me there are 100 variables.

SqueekemsApr 20, 20153 votes

There are hundreds of variables. Hahaha. There are more than that. Chess is a simple game compared to League.

Occams RaiserApr 20, 20151 votes

List ten unique variables. I Don't mean to insult I really want to know all the intricacies I have not thought of.

SqueekemsApr 20, 20151 votes

Here is one champion and a good amount of varying interactions he has with different champions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCnjyITVerc

Occams RaiserApr 20, 20155 votes

Ah. I see how you define variable now. That's not what I meant. No harm no foul. Would you say that in chess, a queen can move in:

8 directions so that is 8 variables. 8 directions = 4 variables. Diagonally and vertically and horizontally = 3 variables OR the queen's functionality is not a set of variables that must be accounted for when describing optimal strategies towards victory.

I offer that a variable is: What is it worth for you to take an opponent's queen when he might be able to play with out it. If you believe him to be a novice, pressure to take it. There is a high probability he loses a lot of strength with out it. If he is a master. The probability is he let you take it and you have already lost.

In LOL, knowing when to take Baron against a team is a variable. Do they need it to win. Do you need it to win. Is it enough to deny them. Is it more likely you will throw if you try to take it considering your team comp and skill. This is either the baron variable set of options or each one is a singular variable.

powerbatsApr 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=Pwt6QNfw,comment-id=00100000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T07:10:31.310+0000)

Ah. I see how you define variable now. That's not what I meant. No harm no foul. Would you say that in chess, a queen can move in:

8 directions so that is 8 variables. 8 directions = 4 variables. Diagonally and vertically and horizontally = 3 variables OR the queen's functionality is not a set of variables that must be accounted for when describing optimal strategies towards victory.

I offer that a variable is: What is it worth for you to take an opponent's queen when he might be able to play with out it. If you believe him to be a novice, pressure to take it. There is a high probability he loses a lot of strength with out it. If he is a master. The probability is he let you take it and you have already lost.

In LOL, knowing when to take Baron against a team is a variable. Do they need it to win. Do you need it to win. Is it enough to deny them. Is it more likely you will throw if you try to take it considering your team comp and skill. This is either the baron variable set of options or each one is a singular variable.

Great example especially the queen part since you take queen in 5 steps but in 6 he puts you in checkmate.

Occams RaiserApr 20, 20152 votes

I do my best to illustrate.

powerbatsApr 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=Pwt6QNfw,comment-id=0010000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T07:29:10.464+0000)

I do my best to illustrate.

That was really good though and one of the best illustrations and explanations yet.

dalphy08Apr 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Burst Damage beats Sustained Damage (APC > ADC) Sustained Damage beats Tank (ADC > Tank) Tank beats Burst Damage (Tank > APC)

Uh......yeah how about no?

IcyPepperApr 20, 20153 votes

Well how about you give it a shot instead of just saying no?

If you can't bring forth a substitute, we don't have anything to go off of and your point will not be seen as credible.

AlëkApr 20, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Uh......yeah how about no?

I totally agree. Your well stated facts, lack of bias and dumb statements, and loads of useful information provide substantial proof that said comment is completely untrue and incorrect.

EDIT: and for the idiots. yes this is sarcasm