How on earth do people think Riot is a greedy company?

Guy Fox Teemo··55 votes·4,709 views

Their product is 100% free to play, you can earn everything in the game for free, except cosmetics. Wait? No you can earn those for FREE as well?!?

Riot gives you a free skin at the end of the year if you played decent in ranked; a game in which you could decide to not pay anything, the fact that Riot gives anything free is surprising, there are 67 Million players who play LoL actively each month, the cost to keep up the servers is immense. They even host massive e-sports events that don't bring them even close to the amount of money it costs.

It pisses me off how people can call Riot greedy, you may have your disagreements about balance, or game design but you cannot say Riot is greedy that is complete false. Riot is one of the best gaming companys to date, all of the content they provide is very high quality for a company who offers there game for free.

So please don't make bullshit accusations that Riot is a greedy company, its ridiculous. (Also Tencent has next to no control over how Riot manages there game/games, all they do is hold a stake in the company taking the revenue they make, they do not make any business decisions or game decisions for Riot, they are also needed for Riot to maintain a server in China)

65 Comments

Fewtas20 votes

'round of applause' Someone who actually understands it. That is very rare to come by.

Niyumi12 votes

Okay, time to go to business school for kiddies.

So, Tencent is the majority shareholder of Riot Games, in California.

What is a 'Majority Shareholder'

A majority shareholder is a person or entity that owns more than 50% of a company's outstanding shares. The majority shareholder is often the founder of the company, or in the case of long-established businesses, the founder's descendants. By virtue of controlling more than half of the voting interests in the company, the majority shareholder has a very significant influence in the business operations and strategic direction of the company.

What does that mean, then? It means that Tencent ( despite having no prior involvement in the game, no branches in America, none of that) is, more or less, in control of what happens at Riot. They may not care about small details and how things actually get done, but they dictate what happens in a broader sense. So, a lot of the things that happen now happen because of Tencent.

Now, an F2P company has very different design philosophies than a P2P game or traditional B2P (before DLC was a thing) game, regardless of the company controlling it:


F2P: In an F2P game, you make money through the cash shop -- most often cosmetic items, or minor QOL boosts / items that have no real impact on actual gameplay, but make the game far more accessible and feel better. So, because of this, most F2P games will make the base game (with no cash shop additions) very ugly, grindy and nearly unbearable. They will tease you with all these things that could be if you shell out a bit of money -- and, eventually people will give in, and then they'll tell their friends, and it starts a whole chain of people buying shit they don't need (and should have had by default).

So, because their income doesn't come from the base game itself, they largely ignore it, and only do the bare minimum work necessary to placate people who care. They will spend the majority of their resources and time in developing cash shop items / features, and throw out half-assed content / lore / design / what have you. In Anet (the company who runs GW2, owned by NCsoft (another Asian cash grab company)), teams are all given a quota of items they must design for the cash shop each month. If they fail to meet this quota, they are potentially fired. So, teams will literally drop any and all content they're working on in order to meet this quota. This means that the content that does come out is half-assed or takes a very long time to actually release.

Now, how does this apply to League? Well, they don't make money off of the game itself. So, they won't spend as much time making sure it's fun, balanced, fair and all that. Most of their time and effort will be put into selling skins / RP in general.

Balance, for example. People have been complaining about balance since the game came out, yet Riot has never really done much to address it. The easiest champions are rewarded far more than any of the harder ones, and champions like Zed, with every tool in the book, just continue on without any real nerfs (we get placebo changes sure, but nothing substantial). So, since balance doesn't make them money, they instead create FOTM waves (Tanks, assassins, AS stackers, mages, ADCs, a particular champ, etc.) to spike skin / RP sales, and repeat this process every few weeks at random times (to not be caught).

They spend what, 7 years to update Taric? In any competent team, that would take very little time. But, since that doesn't make them money (the cost outweighs the profit, since many people who play Taric already owned him), they put it on a back burner, and give it an hour or so every couple days. The result is the process, which should only take a week or two at most, taking years to complete. Then we have Jayce's hammer bug. Largely aesthetic, has no real effect on gameplay, and fixing it would consume time and resources and have no income potential. So, unless Jayce has a new skin come out that they hype, it will not be fixed -- despite being around since the champion was released.

So, even though League isn't P2W, they do suffer from the F2P philosophies of greed. Not only that, but they have to follow whatever Tencent tells them, and make so much each quarter.


Now, what about a P2P or traditional B2P game?

P2P / B2P (no cash shop): In a P2P game, you don't make money through your cash shop, rather, you make money by keeping people happy and playing your game. This means that, rather than finding out how much you can withhold from people before they break, you actually show a bit of passion about your work, and make sure the game is as good as it can be. You pour resources and dev time into the base game, pumping out great content that keeps people playing.

In an MMO, there is a bit of time gating, sure, but people wouldn't wait around if the subscription wasn't worth it. So, the developers put real effort into making quality, entertaining content that will keep people coming back for more and playing the game. There is no cash shop to suck developer resources away, so the content and base game itself gets the entirety of the attention. Instead of cash shop item quotas, there are development schedules for meaningful content -- usually spaced out enough to not overwhelm people, but also to be slow enough to have a steady stream of content.

In a traditional B2P game (before DLC), you had to get people hooked on your game so that they would want to buy the rest of the series. Otherwise, you made no money. So, you had to have engaging, fun gameplay and a story that pulled people in. You couldn't just sell some shitty game, rip a bunch of the game out, and then later resell those pieces as DLC, because the technology wasn't there. We had expansions, but that was still buying a physical game. This is the type of gaming that brought out Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Smash Bros., Final Fantasy, Sonic and all these other great games that we still have around today. They didn't become popular because they were cheap, greedy assholes who milked people for every penny -- instead, they became great because they were great games with great people behind them.


So, a company doesn't have to be P2W to be shitty and greedy, and Riot is most definitely a greedy, slimy company, that deserves to be demonized -- but companies like that are the norm these days. Passion and enthusiasm have died out in the industry, to be replaced by greed and selfishness. Some of the developers still care, but they have to do what the publisher / dev lead / CEO / producer say, and can't stay true to what they know is right.

Sad part is that we told everyone, 10+ years ago, that F2P was not a good thing, that it would destroy gaming. Unfortunately, people didn't listen to us. In the gimme generation, anything "free" is good, and the kids were just all over that. While I'd love a return to the golden age of gaming, I know that gaming died several years ago, to be replaced by the shallow, ugly cash grab we have today that wears its face.

Hopefully you understand why people call Riot greedy now (though I doubt you read more than a sentence). It's not because they're just upset, it's because Riot (and every company these days, even Nintendo) is a fucking slimy, sleazy ass company who can't do anything but try and milk people for all they've got. Beck (their CEO) doesn't even play the game, and never really has. So don't expect the company to ever give a damn, 'cause they won't.

Myrmiron1 votes

CD Project Red :) Edit: also I agree to some extend. I never spend any money on a free 2 play game except for league. I usually prefer buy to play games and even mmos with monthly fees over free to play titles. But I think you're being a bit too harsh, ofc devs want their games to be profitable.

Niyumi4 votes

There's being profitable, and then there's being greedy. There's a big difference there.

I don't know where you live, but imagine a big bank (Bank of America) vs. a small credit union (BECU). They both do the same thing, just as well, but which company is better? Which bank do you like more? Difference is that Bank of America gives no damn about anything but money, whereas BECU cares a little more.

So, yeah, there could be a good, quality F2P company. And, hell, some of these indie guys do care about their game. But, most F2P companies are just shit. But there are also shitty P2P companies, like Sony, Blizzard (now) and so on.

Myrmiron1 votes

I think with Blizzard it depends on the game. I highly respect Blizzard for their dedication to deliver high quality products.

Niyumi4 votes

Well, yeah, Blizzard can do quality, but they often choose not to. Ever since Activision bought them, they've just gone to shit. : /

EtherealMage3 votes

Sadly. Blizzard used to be one of the best. WOW went downhill after CATA was released, and Diablo III And SCII don't match up to the previous installments of their series (SCII is still fun, though the game is less strategy and more "press keys quickly"). Don't even get me started on the pay to win that is Hearthstone...

I think you've done an excellent job describing the free to play model, and pointing out the problems with it. There was a time when games were made with passion, by people who were trying to make something awesome for people to enjoy; that's rarely the case in gaming these days. [zombie-nunu-tears]

Niyumi4 votes

Honestly, I loved Cata, and MoP was great too (played from launch week to 6.0 prepatch) -- but then 6.0 came out, and I quit on the spot. They made the game so painfully simplistic and boring, and they made fistweaving non-viable. : / Diablo 2 was fun for years, but Diablo 3 only lasted a few months at best.

But, sad thing is that we told everyone how horrible F2P was, and how it'd be the death of gaming 10 years ago, when it was starting to catch on. Unfortunately, no one listened, and now gaming is in the state it is because of that. I miss the 90s and early 00s, when developers actually cared about what they did, not because they could milk people for every penny they had. But, unfortunately, greed is a pretty common character flaw in today's society.

I do miss how things were though.

Tis a nice day2 votes

So is there any way for Riot to make a profit WITHOUT being a greedy slimy company?

Niyumi7 votes

Well, last time I checked, Riot posted over $1B in profit -- this means money they make after paychecks and expenses. If they want to prove that they're not a greedy, slimy company, they could funnel a portion of that money into their game, instead of ignoring it.

Getting a modern client that runs properly, updating old champions, balancing their game for once (unrealistic), update old splash arts (in a realistic timeframe, not 3+ months per splash)... all things they could do to show that they actually give a damn about their game. Yet, it'll take years for any of this to happen.

Misser Clam12 votes

Modern client you say?

Updating old champions? Who is that fabulous fellow in blue who shoots out gems? That hammer wielding short person? That undead juggernaut? What is happening to those outdated, clunky, mages in the next patch?

Splash arts.

As for "true balance", which is what you want, a perfect state of balance where every champion is 100% viable, will never happen due to the sheer number of champions we have. Champions fall in and out of flavour because of the state of flux the roster is constantly experiencing. You're naive to think that the game in it's entirety can be perfectly balanced even for a single patch.

For someone who seems to know so much, you seem to be spewing a hell of a lot of bullshit.

Niyumi6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Misser Clam,realm=EUW,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PrtHtZhH,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T12:58:20.741+0000)

Modern client you say?

Been asking for an update for years -- and, years later, it's still not done.

Updating old champions? Who is that fabulous fellow in blue who shoots out gems? That hammer wielding short person? That undead juggernaut? What is happening to those outdated, clunky, mages in the next patch?

How old is Taric? Hm, 7-8 years? And he's just now getting an update?

Splash arts.

Again, it does not take three or more months to update a splash art. Hell, it doesn't even take one month.

As for "true balance", which is what you want, a perfect state of balance where every champion is 100% viable, will never happen due to the sheer number of champions we have. Champions fall in and out of flavour because of the state of flux the roster is constantly experiencing. You're naive to think that the game in it's entirety can be perfectly balanced even for a single patch.

True balance is not parity, but rewarding champs for playing into their strengths, and punishing them for failing to shore up their weaknesses. Right now, strengths are just dramatically overshadowing weaknesses -- to the point that some champs don't really have any weaknesses, and have to be out-stat'd (ADCs come to mind) rather than outplayed.

But, see, here's the thing: In this game, Riot knows that balance (real balance, not fake parity) is not lucrative, since a stagnant roster doesn't have any FOTM waves to spike sales. So we'll never see balance, and we'll continue to see "OP" champs, because it makes them more money. How many people do you think went out to buy Ekko, and skins for him, since people discovered his whole tank thing? How many people buy Zed and skins because of Faker? They don't even try to balance their game. They make placebo changes to make people happy (-3 AD on Vayne, 5% less AD on Zed (Which is what 9 AD?), etc.) that ultimately have no real effect on gameplay.

For someone who seems to know so much, you seem to be spewing a hell of a lot of bullshit.

For someone who has no experience in the field, you sure seem to act like you know it all. ^^

Infínity3 votes

How old is Taric? Hm,7-8years?

Game hasn't even been around for that long

Niyumi2 votes

Game was around when I was still playing WoW during Wrath, which released in 2008. That's 8 years ago. Release date of League is Oct. of 2009, so 7 years.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

They started work on the client 2-3 yrs ago, do you know how fuckibg difficult it is to build a new platform? Do you how god dam hard it is to code a video game? Especially one that can handle LoLs size? You can't just throw money at it , it takes time , and A LOT of effort.

Niyumi4 votes

Okay, so here's the thing: The client is TOTALLY unrelated to the game itself -- it's basically just a giant, fancy IM program that lets you pick champions before going into a game, and modify account settings. It's about as hard to code as a website.

Also, thing 2: League, compared to any MMO out there, is PATHETICALLY small. Like, a fraction of the size. While I can understand a world as big as Azeroth, Tyria or TERA / FFXIV's worlds taking a while to work on... League is one map, with the same things happening every game. So please, don't act like it'd be super hard to do anything in League, 'cause it really wouldn't be for any competent design team (which Riot lacks, honestly, but not because the people aren't good, but because they aren't funded).

Guy Fox Teemo4 votes

Are you dumb? IT WAS REVENUE , they made 1 billion. Total last year , that almost all goes to support the game and rest to tencent/pay employees , the most payed person at riot is ghost Crawler , who earns around 200,000 a year which is very little considering the money riot makes

BastionKross4 votes

You can absolutely earn everything you want in this game for free... after you play for a couple years.

  • You have to buy your own champs, as it's not like Dota where they just hand you the roster. Even if you only play twenty or so champs, the IP costs add up; especially so when you buy newer champs that cost vastly more IP than the bottom 450s.

  • Runes, for the longest time (although they are finally fixing it), were a waste if you bought tier 1 or 2. Even if you were smart enough to save your IP and buy all your runes at level 20 when tier 3 opened up, a full rune page could cost more than the champion you're using it for.

  • You start with two rune pages, but you'll find that that is not enough and that the pages themselves cost as much IP as goddamn Draven does. Yes, there are generic rune pages you can play if you can't afford more pages, but eventually you're most likely going to want more specialized pages for the champs you take as your mains. You may even want more than one page for your main if you play them multiple ways.

So when you break it down, you can absolutely get all the competitive advantages for free. However it's going to take awhile, especially with dynamic queue driving up some people's queue times (and thus slowing the rate of IP gain) to the point where they spend almost as much time searching for a game as they do playing it.

And I'm not advocating we just throw all this stuff at you after you've played for two hours. It's good that you have to earn things in a free to play model. But there's definitely some improvements Riot could levy on the IP system so that players wouldn't have to grind for a month to afford Voilbear, and then grind a second month for the runes and rune page he might require.

Riot may not be EA's level of evil, but they're not innocent here either. They've done some things that could very easily be seen as blatant cash grabs; like chromas, charging RP for certain underwhelming summoner icons, selling boosts that increase IP gain to sane levels, refusing to update older, outdated, expensive skins while continuing to sell them at full price, and allowing the free crafting system to give you shards of things you already own. At least with skin shards you can break them down to essence to build other skin shards; but champion shards, especially after you've gotten all your champs? Useless, even as essence.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

You don't need all champions though ... At MOST people would play 10 average. Regularly people play between 3-5

living guava4 votes

You need at least 16 champs. Most people also don't only play 10 champs, most people do (and should) keep up to date with the meta picks because its the easiest way to rank.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Yes, you only need to play 3-5, earn 16? Thats easy with buying all the 450 IP ones. (Which almost all new players buy anyways since they are some of the easier champions to play)

DorkunedAuras2 votes

RyzePoppy

Watzi3 votes

Well, if you want to get to the reasoning behind it, only look as far as your statements. "Tencent ONLY holds a stake in the company in taking the revenue they make." So by using inductive reasoning, people can then make the statement: "Tencent only cares about money."

Now, how would Riot help Tencent's role in "only wanting money"?

And that would be the counter argument easily made. Me personally, I'm not informed enough on either side of the fence for this discussion, but I can easily see where the people against it are coming from.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

I'm sorry, did you miss the part where you can earn everything in this game for free? Even the parts they monetize from and are there only source of revenue? Did I also mention this game is free?

Yes Tencent only cares about money, but they have no say in Riots decisions on how they manage their company or games. All they do is take revenue from Riot at the end of the year. They dont' influence them in any way. And even if they did, nothing in Riots game screams money grubbing in anyway.

Watzi3 votes

...Did you read the part where I said this wasn't my opinion? I was just posing how the counter argument can come up. You seemed a tad confused as to how anybody can think that.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Apologize didn't read it thorough enough, but either way, I can't see where they are coming from, their argument has no facts or basis behind besides hate against Riot.

Watzi2 votes

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I'd start talking to one of these so-called haters, and get their views on it. Maybe they have valid points that you don't know about yet. If they don't, then hate is hate. Just ignore em.

living guava3 votes

Riot is incredibly greedy and It'd be incredibly stupid to think otherwise. Compared to DOTA or SMITE, the amount of IP/Money you need to play the game effectively is insane. Even their balancing and game design changes are motivated by greed. They're releasing all these champions that are AWFUL for Solo Queue either for being (unintentionally) disruptive to their teammates or completely unfair to the opposite team but extremely effective to play with or against if you have a coordinated teams. Combined with the decision to keep Dynamic Queue, they're completely alienating solo players because the game is starting to peak in popularity and they want players to bring their friends (back) into the game because each person coming back to play with their friends is a potential source of income. They don't even care that they've pretty much destroyed mid/high elo because the vast majority of players aren't.

gabrielC123 votes

"saying you can play league of legends without spending money is like saying cocaine isn't addicting because it has no chemically addictive ingredients" -Uberdanger

Myrmiron2 votes

Free to start* Good luck unlocking all champs by playing.

I agree with the tencent part though, that circlejerk has to stop.

Guy Fox Teemo8 votes

I have all champs btw, (It took 4000 games but I do have them all)

But besides that you don't need them all, you don't need all runes, a pool of 20 champions is perfectly fine, I don't play much out of maybe 5, I only own them all just to collect. Which you could easily grab by the time you reach 30.

(Also you get free champs from Hextech as well -____-)

Myrmiron2 votes

That may be true, but now imagine you're a new player and from your hard earned IP you buy 20 Urgots because you don't know any better. I think it's unfair to call league 100% free to play. It's certainly free 2 try/start, but if you have any ambitions at all you pretty much have to invest at least some money. If I were to start league today I'd stop playing it before even reaching level 30. Luckily I'm playing since season 1, so I pretty much always had all champions.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

Look League needs to have some monetization, this game cost A LOT of money to run, they monetize champions and Skins, champions you can earn for free relatively easily , could buy all 450ip champs before level 30.

I have a friend who's never spent a dime on this game, he's enjoyed it the whole time, this game requires time and effort, sure you could buy all the champions if you want, but that really isn't need to enjoy the game. Dont need to inves any money in this game at all to enjoy it to the fullest.

Myrmiron2 votes

I don't have a problem with Riot monetizing their game. I just think unlocking champions should be easier, especially for new players. My idea would be to make all the cheapest champions free to play on top of the weekly rotation, and drastically reduce the IP costs of the remaining champions. I never needed to buy champions with RP, I still managed to spend almost 1000€ on this account alone over the years. I think that's how monetization should work, obtaining the games essence (champions) should be affordable and doable in less than 1000 wins (2000 games), and extras can cost as much as Riot wants them to. If the game is enjoyable people will spend money on it.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

That would cut A LOT of their revenue, they need the monetization on champions and skins. They already added hextech for a way for you to earn them for free as well. You don't need all champions in the game to enjoy the game, collecting them all is not a requirement to enjoy the game. Easily own 20 of them and be happy.

If they didn't monetize champions their skins prices would be insanely high, which drive people away from buying skins which would be their own revenue, since not everyone can afford a $20 skin, which would have been $10 otherwise.

Myrmiron2 votes

We don't know if they couldn't sustain on skin prices alone. What we know is that Dota 2 for example manages to sustain on skin prices alone, and that league is getting more and more new player unfriendly with each new champion they release. All I want is for new players to feel more competetive and welcome by the game. And yes, hextech crafting is a good step in the right direction IMO.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

DoTA 2 is supported by Valve, which has the entirety of Steam to support if. That's why they only charge for cosmetics

Myrmiron2 votes

I don't think they would support Dota 2 if it wouldn't profitable. Also I'm just throwing around observations. I'm obviously no insider. As I said all I want for league is to be more new player friendly.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

1: Dota 2 is supported by Valve, which has billions from other games. 2: League is MAAAAAAAAAASSIVELY bigger then Dota 2 , costing a lot more to sustain.

Myrmiron2 votes

With being massively bigger also comes more potential money. As I said above, all I want is for league to be more new player friendly. Also as I said above, I don't think valve would support Dota 2 if it wasn't profitable.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

I think the game is perfectly new player friendly (At least the content you get, actual gameplay not so much). They get to play 10 free champions a weak which is more then enough to sustain a new player till they earn a new one.

Again, you dont need all 140 champions.

Awkward Couch2 votes

{quoted}

I don't have a problem with Riot monetizing their game. I just think unlocking champions should be easier, especially for new players. My idea would be to make all the cheapest champions free to play on top of the weekly rotation, and drastically reduce the IP costs of the remaining champions. I never needed to buy champions with RP, I still managed to spend almost 1000€ on this account alone over the years. I think that's how monetization should work, obtaining the games essence (champions) should be affordable and doable in less than 1000 wins (2000 games), and extras can cost as much as Riot wants them to. If the game is enjoyable people will spend money on it.

I'd be ok with this. I've only ever spent money on skins, never on champions, but it is a bitch to grind to get all those champs and rune pages. Like seriously, I don't play all that much but hot damn it takes forever to get everything. I think their model was fine when they started out, when there were around 70 champs in the game, but now there's 130. That's a lot of IP that you have to sink into the game just to play the champs. I think they should just make all the 450 champs free to start and then lower every champ down 1 tier.

Myrmiron1 votes

Exactly! Finally someone that agrees with me. :)

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

But you don't need every sigma champion.... Champion releases now come once every 1-2 months which is more then enough time to unlock it every time it releases. Again you don't need every champion this game isn't about unlocking -_- nor does it give you advantage as you only need 3-5 to succeed in competitive play and really don't need more than 2 rune pages for an average player gold and down. (Which is 90% of player base)

AramsAreBest2 votes

I only have 17 champs and not 1 full rune page. This is after a couple hundred games.

Guy Fox Teemo8 votes

So you have to invest a lot of time and effort to earn content in the game? THey can't give it all out for free, LoL is there only title, they have to bring in revenue to support the game/company, and to keep it growing further and bigger. THey shouldn't even give anything out for free, but they provide the full game for free, with all content unlockable through effort and some out right free after a couple of games.

AramsAreBest3 votes

I wasn't arguing anything I was just stating a fact.

VentusDragoon1 votes

I do agree with the OP though, it takes time. Also, if you're going for farming IP, there are of course best ways to do so. Ranked Summoner's Rift matches will always give the most. ARAM gives a lot due to the shorter length of the games, but it's also a lot more likely to lose due to team comps. Also, sometimes there are double IP weekends or things like that, and you get a free IP boost when you confirm your e-mail. You won't be able to get all of the champions in just a couple hundred games, especially since outside of the First Win of the Day, you'll usually not get much more than 100 IP per SR game. Considering each 6300 champ is just that, not counting FWotD, you'd need roughly 55-60 games to get one of them. So of course it's going to take a while.

HayRoss1 votes

He does have something of a point. Expecting people to play 4,000 games to unlock every character is pretty absurd

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

I'm not sure you understand how freemium games work. Don't get me wrong, I love Riot and League, and I don't think they are a greedy company, but just because a game is free to play does not mean that it is a charity.

Microtransactions can be very greedy. While most players won't pay more than $20 or so and many won't pay any at all, the minority of players with poor impulse control/lots of disposable income may spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. There are plenty of examples of other F2P games where people with addiction issues (like compulsive gamblers) spents thousands of dollars on them. Most games like that are designed to extract as much money as possible off of the "whales" who spend more than the other 95% of consumers combined.

I'm not disagreeing with your point about Riot, just the logic that because a game is F2P with a way to "earn" paid content over time it is not greedy. That kind of logic will lead you into trouble if you start playing other F2P games.

More from [ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

More by Guy Fox Teemo