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On Reports, Tickets, Illegal Activity, and Calling Riot Out for Bullshit

Lizdeath··17 votes·9,538 views

So let's say I have been severely sexually harassed in champ select (pretty damn close to what actually happened and I deeply regret not screencapping it). Can I submit a support ticket requesting the player's personal identifying information with which to go to police? I mean sure I can submit a report of the behaviour, but we all know it takes a special level of toxicity to hit tribunal. Obviously a ticket to have Riot personally deal with the instance is better, but Riot has one of the worst track records I have ever seen for dealing with cases so extreme that they warrant ticketing Riot to directly intervene in a single incident in addition to a traditional report.

Every single time some form of harassment has been so severe that it warrants contacting Riot directly, it does not matter the content of the submission directly to Riot, you will always get a cookie cutter response, and this is unacceptable. Sure the cookie cutter response is acceptable when it is a minor thing that will be better handled by Tribunal, but there are cases (most notably when something crosses the line into criminal activity) where it would be far better handled by directly contacting Riot.

To give you an idea of what happened last night, I picked Swain and called top as second pick in ranked. Immediately after I called top, this guy immediately says something to the effect of "gg, women can't play in a carry role except support" and went on a tirade of how I must be bad because he inferred I am female because I have a female sounding name, and how my "boyfriend" must have carried me out of bronze (I am a lesbian btw, so references to my "boyfriend" are particularly annoying). This guy was either looking to pick a fight, or genuinely doesn't seem to understand that 90% of players of online games with a feminine name are actually men (or at least this was true of WoW back when I played).

From there it got worse and lasted the entirety of champ select. I was continually harassed for being a female gamer while he had nothing to go on except my name (because what female gamer in her right mind advertises being a female gamer when it inevitably leads to harrassment). Once game started, he immediately stopped, presumably because it is a well known fact that Tribunal sees in game chat logs, but not pre/post game chat logs.

Now maybe I am not qualified to speak on the issue of when something crosses the line into territory of requiring a report in client to being better handled directly by Riot, but I would think that having spent 4 years studying social psychology would equip me pretty damn well to know when to make that judgment call. The result of being thrown cookie cutter solutions when I make that judgement call is infuriating and insulting. Its good to know that we have something resembling Standard Overseas Customer Support Desk handling these types of complaints. Don't get me wrong, I've submitted a large number of tickets (in my opinion), and most of them are handled excellently, except these ones. Almost every time I submit a player behaviour ticket, my reaction to Riot's response is one of "Did you even read the fucking message before responing? No? Then go read the fucking message and get back to me after you have done so!"

This is one area where it is very obvious Riot has repeatedly fail to meet a minimum standard in customer service, and this needs to be addressed better in the future.

And inb4 "you submit countless player behaviour tickets," I have played thousands of games and only ever seen behaviour so extreme that immediate intervention is the best method of handling it a total of 3 times. Statistically speaking, these cases are very rare.

27 Comments

Gavran28 votes

So let's say I have been severely sexually harassed in champ select (pretty damn close to what actually happened)

Wrong: Sexism is not sexual harassment. What happened to you was no worse than racism, or any other form of bigotry exhibited by people online. Not that it's okay, because it isn't, none of those things are - and I appreciate that it seems like a lot more people rally against things like racism while supporting the people that act sexist, and that sucks a lot but don't make it out to be more than it is.

Can I submit a support ticket requesting the player's personal identifying information with which to go to police?

Wrong: It would be massively illegal for Riot to give out personal information to anyone other than the police. Furthermore, bigotry on a personal level is not a crime and giving the police false reports is.

90% of players of online games with a feminine name are actually men (or at least this was true of WoW back when I played).

Wrong: Something like 40% of gamers are women and assuming 90% of those are men in disguise only encourages the sort of behaviour that led you to make this post. Online sexism stems less from actual misogynistic beliefs and more from perfectly normal (albeit reprehensible) "us vs them" mentalities and clique-ish exclusionary behaviours that as a student of psychology you should be familiar with.

Once game started, he immediately stopped, presumably because it is a well known fact that Tribunal sees in game chat logs, but not pre/post game chat logs.

Wrong: Riot has always had access to pre/post-game chat logs, and the Tribunal isn't even functioning right now.

Now maybe I am not qualified to speak on the issue of when something crosses the line into territory of requiring a report in client to being better handled directly by Riot, but I would think that having spent 4 years studying social psychology would equip me pretty damn well to know when to make that judgment call.

Wrong: The person in your example was offensive, and is deserving of punishment, but is guilty of the same wrongs as many people that are handled by Riot's player behaviour system without issue. You can look through the red tracker to find many many examples of players that were banned for offensive discriminatory conduct - I will note that I personally haven't seen a case where sexism was the primary issue - but I have faith that Riot's behaviour team takes sexism as seriously as everything else, even if the player base sadly fails to. Particularly since, as I said above, that behaviour is rarely indicative of true misogyny and rather speaks to a generally low quality of character that is prone to such negative behaviour toward anyone with little to no provocation. (E.g. That person would've flamed someone who picked off the meta, someone whose username suggested they were homosexual or of an "unfavorable" religious group, etc.)

Pbbth. Okay. That was a lot of words on how you're wrong, but I do agree with your ideal here, just vehemently disagree with your desired methodology... getting the police involved with a rager in champion select is immature and wrong. You would be diverting police attention from things of true importance, and that's not okay.

Now, while I believe a player like the one you mentioned will absolutely get picked up and punished without your "more direct" intervention and Rioters have said that the majority of support ticket based reports that lead to punishment are about players that were already detected by the system and en route to being banned - there are sometimes cases of extreme misconduct that warrant it, and only you can decide when that has become necessary. I encourage you to continue that practice, but have a little more understanding for Riot's support please. Not only are there countless tickets being opened every day, but just as they can't give you someone's personal information without breaking the law, they can't give you details on the discipline of someone else's account. That doesn't mean action isn't taken.

EMOFRATPARTY4 votes

OP laid out her stance, and it's unfortunate to hear what happened to her. However, I'd have to agree with the idea behind what Gavran is saying. Although the cookie-cutter response is not what anyone would like, it's all that Riot is capable of.

There are approximately 67M monthly active users. While I'd like to see instances of behavior such as what you experienced eliminated entirely, Riot is getting better at tracking this sort of thing with the new automated system. The copy that you saw was a front-facing embodiment of that action being taken, but I think that is where the problem resides.

It would be impossible to individually respond to every ticket. But if it was shown with more immediacy that impending action was going to be taken, i.e. recognition of the offensive behaviors, it might subside part of the issue that the original post addresses.

OP, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that idea, because it seems to me like you feel left hanging (even though you may not have been).

Gavran4 votes

Minor edit: (except I can't actually edit the post because character limits.)

When I said that you would be diverting police from "important" issues, I misspoke a bit. While the individual incident is small and relatively unimportant, I don't at all feel that the underlying causes aren't important. What I really meant to say is that it is not a problem for the police to solve - their duty, primarily, is to keep people safe. Making people treat each other right is... well, I have no idea who to hope is working on that in the real world, but here at least it's Riot's job.

Thunder Dreamss2 votes

Once game started, he immediately stopped, presumably because it is a well known fact that Tribunal sees in game chat logs, but not pre/post game chat logs.

Wrong: Riot has always had access to pre/post-game chat logs, and the Tribunal isn't even functioning right now.

How is this statement wrong? It is a well know fact that Tribunal only sees chat logs of game itself. As for Tribunal being down, old habits die hard. All the worst (best?) trolls I've met have only admitted what their doing in pre/post game chat. They've stayed silent or positive in game but been absolutely horrible in the places Tribunal never saw.

Gavran2 votes

It's less that it's not factual and more that it's irrelevant. It is a widespread belief that how you act in pre/post-game can't get you in trouble, but it is nonetheless a false one and that's the important part.

In truth I only added that part in because I was going to mention it in my conclusion that the report system is largely capable of handling these people without support ticket intervention, but it felt awkward without saying earlier that the chat logs are still available.

Thunder Dreamss1 votes

I may not be up to date on exactly what Riot is doing now.

I know previously when reports went to Tribunal I saw cases there that were entirely based on what someone may or may not have said in pre/port game chat which I couldn't see. Those cases (at least the one's I saw) got pardoned so at least previously the reporting system couldn't handle it. To put it another way, it's a widespread beleif that you can't be punished for you you act in pre/post game chat because previously you couldn't be punished for it, at least not by reports.

If Riot's new systems can catch players who are assholes before and after a game, well I'll be glad to hear it.

Penguin At Law1 votes

You need to get over to the US EEOC and let them know about their mistakes! They've been incorrectly stating that sexual harassment may consist of offensive remarks including generalizations about women that are intended to be overheard by women. What maroons! http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm. And that's the first hit on Google for "sexual harassment," so thousands of people are probably seeing this misinformation every day.

And the privacy implications of a private company that has been given the name of a participant providing that name to other people? That's blatantly illegal! That'd be like a sports team printing the players' names on the back of their jerseys, or announcing an audience member's name over the loudspeaker. Shoot, if private companies could just wantonly publish the real names of people who utilize their services, the phone company could just put out a book every year with a list of every subscriber and their address! Facebook could publish people's real names every time they appeared in a photograph! Obviously, if RIOT gave one player the registered name of another, it would immediately go to prison. That would be because RIOT is a bank. Or .. umm... a hospital.

The underlying point, that some player behavior issues deserve more than a pat response from RIOT staff, is spot on in my view. Like Gavran, I believe (or at least hope!) that, in fact, the underlying complaint is getting more than a pat response, although all of the response it gets may not be visible. It would be great if RIOT were more transparent to you about their investigation.

Gavran1 votes

Equal Opportunity employment laws have no bearing on individuals, and a name is far from enough to identify someone to the police. I'm not a lawyer and I won't pretend to be but I'm all but completely certain that it's illegal for Riot to so much as tell you the state someone lives in. If it isn't actually illegal, it is without any doubt at all against the policy of Riot and every other company in a similar position that I've interacted with. Regardless, you must agree that however distasteful it is, making stupid 'jokes' about women is neither the worst thing that people do here or remotely worthy of police attention.

I'm not really sure why you're running straw men here if you agree with me though.

I will note that it'd make me pretty happy if one of the Reds that posted here, or Lyte, could come in and say "Yes we definitely take sexism as seriously as racism [etc.]" because it is probably the most prevalent and accepted bigotry in the gaming community as a whole.

Lizdeath3 votes

90% of players of online games with a feminine name are actually men (or at least this was true of WoW back when I played).

Wrong: Something like 40% of gamers are women and assuming 90% of those are men in disguise only encourages the sort of behaviour that led you to make this post. Online sexism stems less from actual misogynistic beliefs and more from perfectly normal (albeit reprehensible) "us vs them" mentalities and clique-ish exclusionary behaviours that as a student of psychology you should be familiar with.

I want to address this specifically. You are misreading what I said. It hearkens back to my days in the World of Warcraft community, where 90% of female characters were played by men, the 30% female user base at the time played male and female characters at a 50/50 rate. At the same time the male user base (about 70% at the time) played female characters 70% of the time and male characters 30% of the time. Together, this made the likelihood of someone playing a character who is male to be about equally likely to be played by a male or female, but female characters were most likely male players.

In League the stats may be different, I mean you are using a handle rather than an avatar, you do not typically look at a handle as some form of sexy eye candy (which is the main reason for the stats in MMOs of character gender in relation to player gender).

By no means am I saying that 90% of gamers are men.

Gavran1 votes

Fair enough - when I played WoW I knew far more women who played female characters than that played male, but I get the impression you might've tried to survey it a bit for a class project perhaps, and if not then it's just my anecdotal evidence vs yours anyway. What I really meant to say is that we all need to stop trying to guess what gender someone is because it just doesn't matter at all for casual interaction. Not that I think having a female character or name isn't okay. I mean it sucks that some women feel like it isn't. :\

RiotRiot Nitsuabo18 votes

Sorry you went through that, sounds absolutely miserable. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to learn some more about our support systems. Can't promise any particular action, but I'll follow up if possible. Sorry for the ambiguity, just don't want to overpromise.

Lizdeath2 votes

Regarding the support structures for reports of this nature, I honestly feel that an area for improvement would be in how a response to the ticket is made. I understand revealing personal information is a no (privacy laws there, even if you wanted to you cannot), but what I really want to get at is that in the cases where something is extreme enough to warrant submitting a ticket to have the situation dealt with specifically, I feel a better job of handling it could be done.

In particular, the use of a very obvious copypasta cookie cutter response is infuriating and it makes my experience as a player who has experienced special cases of very bad harassment feel invalidated. Its that part about invalidation that needs to change. Every player's experience is important at the very least, and this should feel acknowledged in the response. I understand that sometimes tickets regarding player behaviour can happen and be frivolous, and in these cases a response that is cookie cutter may make sense, and pointing to the report feature can help reduce the amount of frivolous complaints. With severe cases of harassment though, those cookie cutter responses make it feel as though it is being dismissed and not cared about.

A better approach would involve addressing the complaint, showing that you understand a behaviour is unacceptable within the community Riot wishes to foster, and that it will be looked into (assuming it actually will). I understand revealing specific actions taken is a no no, but I am not interested in that anyways, what I am looking for is to be reassured that my actions actually are meaningful and not being dismissed.

A simple "We understand you have experienced X in a match with the player mentioned in your ticket, we at Riot take cases of X behaviour very seriously and will look into it and act accordingly."

Even if you decide not to act, something like that reminds the victim of extreme cases of harassment that they are not alone in dealing with it and that people do care what happens to them.

And of course adding the bit reminding that it is generally best to use the report feature isn't necessarily harmful, but its addition needs to be done tactfully so as to not make someone feel worse about an already bad situation.

Gavran1 votes

Just as a small aside, I believe there have been at least two cases where Rioters did involve the police based on the contents of chat logs. They definitely aren't afraid to do it when it becomes an actual legal matter (which is mostly around the time the negativity stops being about you as an idea and starts being about you as a real human being. Threats to do real world things against you, find out where you live, that kind of stuff.)

Lizdeath1 votes

The issue is less about whether or not they act on information directly handed to them through support tickets, its more about making it feel less like being abandoned by the system. Its incredibly frustrating when you have someone who is doing something which crosses into the realm of personal attacks, threats which they may or may not have the means to carry out, and so on, where a ticket to ensure the extreme behaviour is dealt with, and all you receive is a response to the ticket which doesn't state they care about it, but rather is giving the person who submitted the ticket a slap on the wrist.

If someone came to me with my address and threatening to kill me in game, I am not so sure I would feel Riot could competently handle it based on the responses I have received thusfar. This here is the issue, trust was broken by a system that fails to acknowledge the player reporting the extreme behaviour and how they feel about the issue. Would they just give me a slap on the wrist and ignore it? It feels like it.

Like I said, they don't need to tell me what they will do about it, just that they actually care about the behaviour of players and take issues seriously, without the need to hand out wrist slaps to players who report cases of extreme harassment.

Gavran1 votes

I hear you. It's a pretty common policy to boilerplate "your report was received" and nothing more, but I personally can't think of a reason they couldn't give something a bit more than that without delving into details or even knowledge of their decision. Riot has shown they're willing to do more than other companies to regulate player behaviour already. I'd be curious to see what Lyte thinks. Not totally shocked if he had a good reason not to that I'm not thinking of, but it'd be good to hear that if it is the case.

RiotdArtagnan17 votes

Hey Lizdeath,

First I want to say that I am incredibly sorry that you had to deal with any form of sexual harassment while playing League of Legends. We take reports like this very seriously and definitely do not condone this kind of behavior in any way, shape, or form.

When you encounter sexual harassment or sexism, the best course of action is to report the player after the match. We have a system and process in place that records these reports and issues punishments, regardless of where the chat happens. Include as much information as possible in the report as it will make it easier to establish evidence against the offenders.

If you have more information to share, such as screenshots, you can send us a player support request. Our Player Behavior team will investigate further and take any necessary action. Just a head’s up though, we can’t reveal any personal information about other players for legal reasons.

I also noticed that you have another ticket open regarding your connection. One of our tech specialists is on the case and will get back to you as soon as possible.

In the meantime, let me know if I can address any other questions you may have.

Lizdeath2 votes

Hey Lizdeath,

First I want to say that I am incredibly sorry that you had to deal with any form of sexual harassment while playing League of Legends. We take reports like this very seriously and definitely do not condone this kind of behavior in any way, shape, or form.

When you encounter sexual harassment or sexism, the best course of action is to report the player after the match. We have a system and process in place that records these reports and issues punishments, regardless of where the chat happens. Include as much information as possible in the report as it will make it easier to establish evidence against the offenders.

If you have more information to share, such as screenshots, you can send us a player support request. Our Player Behavior team will investigate further and take any necessary action. Just a head’s up though, we can’t reveal any personal information about other players for legal reasons.

I also noticed that you have another ticket open regarding your connection. One of our tech specialists is on the case and will get back to you as soon as possible.

In the meantime, let me know if I can address any other questions you may have.

Good to know. I wish I took screencaps of that particular case. I haven't judged Tribunal in a while, so if pre and post game chat is now shown, I would not know, are they now shown? Back when I was more actively doing Tribunal, I only ever saw in game chat. I should go back and do some Tribunal sometime, I found it really rewarding to do, it honestly is something that when I do it, it feels like I am helping to be part of a solution. I'm not about to start a witch hunt when I didn't keep evidence.

As for ways to improve the system, see my response to Riot Nitsuabo below.

Pryotra4 votes

If it happens in champ select, send a ticket to tgeir support. Try to get screenies, and bug them about no pregame chat inclusion for the tribunal. From my experience, they usually give you copy pasta to ensure they don't give away info accidentally,but still follow up on these reports.

Also, they have access to the pregame chat logs, so if you give enough details, they can act accordingly.

thesi3 votes

I hope Riot is able to help you. It is jerks like that that have made my wife refuse to play any pvp. She has seen and heard about too many issues where players in general are relentlessly bashed, with women even more so, to risk trying for herself. And before anyone mentions mute, know that by the time mute is used, it is already too late.

Lizdeath2 votes

I completely agree, mute is something that should be avoided if at all possible. Its pretty damn hard to play a team game when you are doing everything you can to ignore a teammate.

Kiwi Surprise3 votes

If the player in this particular case thinks female gamers can only play support then he obviously does not watch steamers like Jessica Jung and Silver Lady or heard of the Sirens team that faced HotshotGG. Its not right what some of these people say in all chat and pre/post game logs. Sure I have had my share of games when I have gotten heated but who hasnt. However, when a random player immediately begins judging you for being a woman, thats uncalled for. Just think how awful he must feel that he has to attempt to belittle you for being a different gender in a video game. You're awesome! Stay positive and I am sure Riot will do their best.

NightEfx2 votes

you're absolutely right on the whole they dont care situation because ive submitted pictures of racist remarks and really negative chat boxes and have been given the generic response of we'll look into it. this is why i dont use their support anymore or believe their support actually does anything at all in regards to helping others with blatant problems they choose to ignore. its a shame because even with screen captured pictures they dont do much but give you the same response...and guess what i'll probably get this response deleted for saying any of this. so let's watch

PieRuler2 votes

Sexual Harrassment

Also how the hell did they know you were a girl.

KimTheNukeJongUn3 votes

I don't really know many guys with the name "Liz", do you?

Lizdeath2 votes

Basically it. Some people have rightly assumed that it is a pun on Elizabeth (not my name). Lizdeath was my first character in another game where I accidentally had my account name my desired in game name. I derped hard, but I came to like the character of Lizdeath, and started using it as a standard handle when my desired handle isn't available.

xCrescentWrenchx1 votes

Sexism =/= sexual harassment.

Sexual harassment is more or less continued sexual/physical/suggestive advances at someone, whether intended or not. The dude ripping on you for your gender is sexism/gender discrimination.

Educate yourself before you cry on a forum about it. Also, educate yourself on privacy laws and the internet while you are at it. You seem like someone that if possible would cry to the police everytime someone offended you.

If I pissed you off, that's on you. Someone needs to be stern in this discussion. If you want to claim someone mistreated you with a mostly adult(yes, teens can be guilty of it as well)harassment, then be prepared to face it as an adult.

It's an online videogame. You could have been the bigger adult and alt-f4ed at anytime.
No one forced you to stay in Champ Select. No one forced you to play with the guy. YOU chose to stay in Champ Select.

Dodge and find something to do for 5 minutes. Stop letting every little worm get to you.

Deathless81C1 votes

I personally don't trust Riot on this as nothing in a practical sense ever seems to correspond to Riot claims over what they are doing to catch and punish a variety of trolls(most of whom troll in ways that do not involve chat at all). Going with a I'll believe it when I see it attitude about Riot.

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