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My response to "Rewards for positive play"

Paper1··2 votes·2,049 views

I posted a response to lytes thread, but since new replies are coming in every second, I thought I'd start a new discussion. If you click on my name you can find the response. I am on my iPad right now so I can't put a link here right now. Edit: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/l3wHwtIl-rewards-for-positive-play

Anyway, the TL DR is that I got chat restricted a week before the season ended, completely justified. I explain that I don't think I should lose out on rewards for what I believe to be a two month long streak of bad behaviour, even though for three years I have never been punished and I have had games where I try to encourage others to keep going in bad times.

I hope you can read it and see where I am coming from. thanks.

Edit: I thought I would mention to anyone who is browsing this for the first time, that I strongly recommend reading some of the responses to this post. There is significant more detail in some of those responses that provide a better picture than the one I first provided. Thanks for everyone who has taken the time to provide some of their thoughts.

83 Comments

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

Good people can deal with having bad games without raging, even if it just means muting everybody and never saying a word the entire game.

Judging by how you're reacting to everyone here, you are not one of those people. I can't say I'm one of those people (because I'm not) but that doesn't change the fact that you do not deserve the reward, because you are an average person like the rest of us.

Paper11 votes

How do you want me to react to negativity? My first post wasnt even negative. I was explaining my experience. Please please please understand. I have been playing this game for three years. I am not an idiot. Under normal circumstances, I can mute people and report them, but sooner or later if people keep bashing me, I am going to snap. It's human nature.

I am reacting In the same way people are treating me here. The dude I just replied to now simply assumed I was a piece of toxic shit. HOW DO I EXPLAIN THAT I AM NOT TOXIC? I can't. You, or anyone else won't believe me, I'm sick of it. Everyone is bullying me, honestly. Riot says ninety five percent of people are neutral or good. Do you know how that makes me feel? It makes me feel like crap. I am demotivated to try and improve my behaviour, because the community has already decided that I am toxic from one post. FYI, I am improving right now, even though it's not really improving, it's more like just restoring factory settings.

Strat1 votes

Good, I'm glad you're feeling crap because of this. You only get chat restricted if you're REGULARLY toxic in games. This wasn't just one occurrence. Now you have time to consider how you were making other people feel with your behaviour. Right now you're really sounding like you're "sorry you got caught" because you wanted the rewards, not that you're "sorry for being toxic." If you were sorry for being toxic, you'd accept that you didn't deserve the reward and you'd aim to do better next season.

Paper11 votes

What do you mean by one occurrence? It wasn't one occurrence. It was over a couple months. Please just read my post in the other thread. I am sorry for being toxic. What do you want me to say? I believe I deserve the reward based on the good behaviour I displayed for the rest of the time. that's it. I have honour from other people who agree with that. So stop insulting me, start treating me with respect. I haven't insulted you at all, I simply have an opinion which you disagree with. This would be much easier if I could talk to you face to face. Facial expressions would really help this conversation right now. Please please please, just try to understand.

Strat1 votes

I believe I deserve the reward based on the good behaviour I displayed for the rest of the time. that's it.

And that's why I'm finding this whole exchange so insulting. You're greedily begging for a tiny insignificant (4 win IP boost) reward when it's clear you did something way worse than that. You don't deserve the reward. That's it.

Paper11 votes

Except it's not just for the ip boost, lyte said there would be more rewards coming. I find it insulting that I am being verbally attacked for what is essentially, when you tear away the waffle, just an opinion on how the rewards are given out. It's not the reward itself, it's the procedure.

Strat1 votes

That's the thing, you're upset about the procedure purely because it excludes you. You're willing to accept that you did something wrong (and that it wasn't just a single game but over a long period) and you want to be rewarded for what exactly? It's meaningless that your behaviour was good beforehand, it doesn't change the fact that you acted very toxic for a large number of games.

Paper11 votes

I feel like we are going round in circles. Why should the procedure exclude me? I think it shouldn't because of the behaviour I displayed the majority of the time. What's so wrong about that? You can disagree with that, that's fine. I agree I was toxic for a while, but that shouldn't automatically wipe out my previous achievements.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

I feel like we are going round in circles. Why should the procedure exclude me? I think it shouldn't because of the behaviour I displayed the majority of the time. What's so wrong about that? You can disagree with that, that's fine. I agree I was toxic for a while, but that shouldn't automatically wipe out my previous achievements.

It doesn't wipe out anything, the reason it excludes you <actually it doesn't exclude you> it does include you, it includes all players, but only the ones that didn't stack up a bunch of reports get the incentive reward. You fall into the category of having made enough verbal assaults < sounds wrong> to disqualify you. Its a reward for consistantly good behavior, your restriction denotes that you weren't consistant with it. That doesn't disqualify that you were non-toxic in a lot of games. Why is it so bad, its a 4 ip boost......4 games of double ip. This is how important that is to me........they offered this to the whole community, toxic or not for verifying your email. I didn't do it.........that's how important it is to me. So I guess I'm not understanding why its so important to you?

Paper11 votes

It's only important to me because lyte said there would be more rewards... It's not the ip boost, you are right. That is insignificant, but if I'm losing out on bigger things and I have a case to make for it, I want to make myself heard.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

It's only important to me because lyte said there would be more rewards... It's not the ip boost, you are right. That is insignificant, but if I'm losing out on bigger things and I have a case to make for it, I want to make myself heard.

Well whatever they give the 90-95% of the player base, will be small. It has to be that way, but its nice that they put some sort of recognition in for those players. An atta boy.

But next season, you will get them and it will be small but it will be a recognition of your good behavior and an appreciation of you being a good sportsman. I really wish it was visible rather than just consumable but I do like the idea. The rewards may be better next year! but I seriously doubt the conditions for obtaining them will change. Who know, they might widen the base to include more players in some way, or for those who have markedly improved. If you have a really good idea about how to do that you can post a suggestion for it for consideration. I think the best use of your energy would be either something like that for you and others like you or a focus upon not tripping into the negativity.

Eleshakai1 votes

I feel like we are going round in circles. Why should the procedure exclude me? I think it shouldn't because of the behaviour I displayed the majority of the time. What's so wrong about that? You can disagree with that, that's fine. I agree I was toxic for a while, but that shouldn't automatically wipe out my previous achievements.

It's simple, the rewards are based off of THIS YEAR'S behavior. During the 2014 season, that is. If you didn't get punished during the 2014 season, you get rewarded, if you did you don't. It doesn't matter how long BEFORE the 2014 season you were nice for... this one ~9-12 month period is what matters. And yes, you do get judged based off of the ENTIRETY of that 9-12 month period.

That's all there is to it. Strive to be nice next year, if they do the same thing next year you'll be rewarded for it.

Paper11 votes

I honestly don't think I've been judged for the entirety of that period. I know for a fact that I've been non toxic for the majority of this year.

Eleshakai1 votes

I honestly don't think I've been judged for the entirety of that period. I know for a fact that I've been non toxic for the majority of this year.

If there was any point during that time period that you were chat restricted, then you lose the rewards.

And the 'more rewards' are just for people who have their chatlogs displayed in the thread.

Paper11 votes

Oh I see. I must have misread that then. Thanks for the clarification on that. It still doesn't change my mind about the procedure, but its clear we wont agree on that one.

Strat1 votes

Why should the procedure exclude me?

Because you made the game experience worse for a large number of people. And no, it wasn't just the people you were insulting, who may or may not have deserved it. What about the people who are polite and respectful in your games who have to witness the two of you throwing insults at each other, tilting and playing worse as a result?

I'm calling you a toxic shithead player because you are. If you had not responded to the other toxic shitheads players, guess what? They would have eventually stopped because they were being ignored, and you could report them later on.

that shouldn't automatically wipe out my previous achievements.

What previous achievements? Why is it an achievement to not be toxic? Being a respectful player should be the norm. I actually think these rewards shouldn't be handed out at all, but anyone who's received a chat restriction this season definitely doesn't deserve them.

Trinityunicorn2 votes

I'm calling you a toxic shithead because you are.

Whoa, this is the kind of stuff that you're talking about isn't it?

Strat1 votes

Yeah, you're right, I guess I was mainly trying to get it across that he's been badly behaved but I ended up being hypocritical. I never claimed I was an angel either, but I corrected my post.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

Yeah, you're right, I guess I was mainly trying to get it across that he's been badly behaved but I ended up being hypocritical. I never claimed I was an angel either, but I corrected my post.

:-) Glad you recognized it. We all make mistakes, even OP. <3

Paper11 votes

Riot made it an achievement to be consistently well behaved by giving out ip boosts and promising extra rewards, for the reason that they wanted to. I think I met that achievement from the other nine or so months of this season, where I haven't been toxic.

You are now being verbally abusive by calling me a shithead. Please don't do that. I responded to defend myself and to try and win the games for the other people on my team. And yes, I've been one of those people listening to other people argue, and yes I feel depressed, but I also sympathise with the guy who's actially in the right, because most of the time they are doing what is best for the team. That is what I am doing.

Strat2 votes

You are now being verbally abusive by calling me a shithead

Point taken, post edited.

most of the time they are doing what is best for the team. That is what I am doing.

No, you weren't. Being polite and respectful would be best for the team.

I think I met that achievement from the other nine or so months of this season, where I haven't been toxic.

And now we return to the original question. Should someone be congratulated when they've committed a crime just because they haven't committed that crime for a period of time before that? In my opinion, the answer is clearly no, and to be honest you're wasting my time and yours arguing here since that opinion won't change.

Use this as motivation to be positive for ALL of next season and you'll get the rewards they give out next season.

Paper11 votes

Well, that is you opinion which I can respect. The only reason I may have been "badly behaved" is that the way you phrased things makes it sound like you are verbally attacking me, and similarly my responses have been seen as verbally attacking you, which is not my intention.

Lets think about that. Is there any word or sentence I've said to you that can be considered obviously abusive? No. Similarly, apart from one sentence, there is nothing that you have said that can be considered obviously abusive. Here's what I think has happened. People have read my original post and gone "I don't like this person's demeanour, so I am going to assume every point this person makes is a lie". This is what I feel strongly about. Over the internet, there has to be this basic trust that what other people are saying about their own experiences is true.

The problem is, you and many others believe that because of how (riot says) the system works, then that's gospel and can be used as solid evidence against me. Well, the system isn't perfect, and really its more like circumstantial evidence. Unless a rioter comes out and gives an unbiased account of my behaviour this year, and concludes that what I am saying is wrong, then its simply unfair to me to assume I'm lying. Innocent until proven guilty.

In those two months, I was found guilty. That is something I can accept. What I cant accept is being reported in my games because of my demeanour. Sometimes what I say is not obviously abusive like "stupid moron", but things like "please play safe and stop feeding". I bet when you read the last one, all you considered was "stop feeding" and you would probably report me for it, because YOU didn't like it. Its not being abusive to you, its just my demeanour, its a part of me and how I was made. Why should i be punished for something I cant change at its core? People btw talk a low of nonsense sometimes in game. Sometimes its not even about the game. Do they get punished? probably not, but if they say something I dont like, but is not abusive, then I shouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Eleshakai1 votes

Well, that is you opinion which I can respect. The only reason I may have been "badly behaved" is that the way you phrased things makes it sound like you are verbally attacking me, and similarly my responses have been seen as verbally attacking you, which is not my intention.

Lets think about that. Is there any word or sentence I've said to you that can be considered obviously abusive? No. Similarly, apart from one sentence, there is nothing that you have said that can be considered obviously abusive. Here's what I think has happened. People have read my original post and gone "I don't like this person's demeanour, so I am going to assume every point this person makes is a lie". This is what I feel strongly about. Over the internet, there has to be this basic trust that what other people are saying about their own experiences is true.

The problem is, you and many others believe that because of how (riot says) the system works, then that's gospel and can be used as solid evidence against me. Well, the system isn't perfect, and really its more like circumstantial evidence. Unless a rioter comes out and gives an unbiased account of my behaviour this year, and concludes that what I am saying is wrong, then its simply unfair to me to assume I'm lying. Innocent until proven guilty.

In those two months, I was found guilty. That is something I can accept. What I cant accept is being reported in my games because of my demeanour. Sometimes what I say is not obviously abusive like "stupid moron", but things like "please play safe and stop feeding". I bet when you read the last one, all you considered was "stop feeding" and you would probably report me for it, because YOU didn't like it. Its not being abusive to you, its just my demeanour, its a part of me and how I was made. Why should i be punished for something I cant change at its core? People btw talk a low of nonsense sometimes in game. Sometimes its not even about the game. Do they get punished? probably not, but if they say something I dont like, but is not abusive, then I shouldn't be able to do anything about it.

See, just because YOU don't feel it is abusive, does not mean others agree. If someone feels you are being abusive to them, then they have the right to report you for it. If this happens often enough, then your behaviour is clearly not appropriate for this community. The community has spoken and they agree that you are not behaving the way you should be.

It is the community that decides what is acceptable and what is not. And thus, if you are punished, it is the community telling you that the way you are acting is NOT appropriate. What you choose to do with that information is up to you, but that's what you're being told.

And since you've behaved in a way that the community finds unacceptable or inappropriate, you've received a punishment, and are thus disqualified - regardless of what those actions were - for these rewards.

Paper11 votes

Well you dodged most of my points there. If you read my previous posts, I said the ban was completely justifiable. If that's not recognising I went too far during those two months I dont know what is. People seem to be stuck with the idea that I am complaining about my ban. I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT MY BAN.

I can judge. If someone goes galio top and I see them make the same obvious mistake three or more times in a row, and they make no effort to fix it, I tell them to try something, and the if they say no or get angry, I get angry. They are then deliberately ruining MY chances of winning, as well as the other three guys in the lobby. I NEVER argue over a SINGLE mistake. Im trying to win the fucking game fgs, I am not just going to sit back and let them make more mistakes. Oh, but then I'm ruining it for the other three guys? NO I'M NOT. I dont know how else to say it, I AM NOT RUINING THE GAME EXPERIENCE FOR ANYONE. If you were in those games, you would know that.

I give up. There's too many people on here who miss the point. The rest of the community is ruining my experience by down voting me, and trolling in my games. If you reply by repeating anything you, or anyone else, have already said, I am just going to not respond, because I am being treated like an idiot with no memory and cant read .

Paper11 votes

Ok, well turns out people just downvote instead. That's fine, just pick on the guy who doesn't have the popular viewpoint, and dismiss it as being a rant with no backbone. Anyone who read it by the way would know that it does. I feel pretty shit right now. Thanks

Aerothal1 votes

Ok, well turns out people just downvote instead. That's fine, just pick on the guy who doesn't have the popular viewpoint, and dismiss it as being a rant with no backbone. Anyone who read it by the way would know that it does. I feel pretty shit right now. Thanks

do you feel as "shit"- sic- as the guys you raged at in game? i really hope so. because maybe that helps you realize that there is a team playing, not you and some minions. I have zero compassion for the likes of you. ZIP! turns out though, that a lot of ppl who got a light chat res. didnt even lose season rewards. IDK if you got away with the ez treatment. Anyways, system seems to be working as intended! You might be missing out on an ip boost and maybe an icon, but that is a good thing. for 2 months of the season you said you were negative. Thats about 25% of the season. I mean do you even realize how many games you took the fun out of?

Paper11 votes

I strongly recommend reading the conversation I had with strat. He talked about similar things to you so it doesn't make much sense to say the same things twice.

Concerning your question, I recommend the conversation with jubbinaut, then maybe you will understand from my point of view why I don't think its a good thing to remove the reward.

Aerothal1 votes

I strongly recommend reading the conversation I had with strat. He talked about similar things to you so it doesn't make much sense to say the same things twice.

Concerning your question, I recommend the conversation with jubbinaut, then maybe you will understand from my point of view why I don't think its a good thing to remove the reward.

of course you dont think so. you see yourself as a victim when you are actually the perp! see it this way: just because i played 1000 games nicely and friendly i still do not have a right to be mean, raging etc... in game #1001. What counts is not how you used to behave in the 3 years prior to your spell of negativity. your good behavior doesnt negate bad behaviour. (<-look British spelling just for you!) you dont earn goodie points. you dont earn baddie points. there is no "count them together and when i am positive i should get a reward. That is not how it works!

Paper11 votes

You need to read all of that conversation. Since it took you fifteen minutes to respond, I don't think you have. If you did, you would know that strat and many others already made that argument, and I already made a response. Also, everyone can make typo errors. I am switching between iPad and laptop, and the iPad uses predictive text which I find annoying, but it doesn't bother me that much so I just leave it on.

Aerothal1 votes

You need to read all of that conversation. Since it took you fifteen minutes to respond, I don't think you have. If you did, you would know that strat and many others already made that argument, and I already made a response. Also, everyone can make typo errors. I am switching between iPad and laptop, and the iPad uses predictive text which I find annoying, but it doesn't bother me that much so I just leave it on.

lol, since i didnt read your responses i also didnt see if your spelling was bad. i made a lil joke about the spelling of behavior (us) vs behaviour (uk), just because you mentioned that you're from the uk. And you take that personally! LOL Anyways, i am done talking. In my own personal opinion: You dont deserve a reward for good behavior! no argument of yours is going to change my mind about that one! Cheers...i mean bye...or toodles...

Paper11 votes

I don't take it personally. I just think mentioning grammatical errors is a little bit silly, when it's still apparent you know what i mean, regardless of the spelling.

You can have that opinion if you want, but don't expect me to take your opinion seriously when you refuse to read mine. Strat had the same opinion as you, and he had no problem having a discussion about it. In the end I respected his opinion. I don't respect yours, unless you have a change of heart and choose to Properly converse with me.

Aerothal2 votes

I don't take it personally. I just think mentioning grammatical errors is a little bit silly, when it's still apparent you know what i mean, regardless of the spelling.

You can have that opinion if you want, but don't expect me to take your opinion seriously when you refuse to read mine. Strat had the same opinion as you, and he had no problem having a discussion about it. In the end I respected his opinion. I don't respect yours, unless you have a change of heart and choose to Properly converse with me.

there is nothing to converse about.

You want the equivalent to the "Santa Baron Icon". That icon spells: "This summoner has not been banned or been punished and this season ->chat restricted" If you would get that icon it would be worth nothing. It would lose its meaning. This is for all the summoners who did not consistently (yes, it takes consistent bad behavior to get a chat-res) get reported. I dont care if you do not respect my opinion. you do not deserve recognition for being a model of consistent good behavior in game. YOU ARE NOT! you said so yourself.

Ugh, i wanted to stop posting...kk. over and out.

Jubbinaut1 votes

So, I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about this exact kind of idea yesterday, while Lyte was still active in that thread. We were discussing, among other things, the idea of applying larger and more meaningful sportsmanship rewards (a skin, ward skin, or summoner icon, perhaps) not unlike the way these IP boosts were issued - via a Seasonal reward, based on overall standing throughout the season.

I find this interesting, because we came to basically the exact opposite conclusion that you have, OP. In essence, we concluded that players who demonstrated consistent negativity of any sort shouldn't receive rewards. And of course, one of the surest ways to examine which players demonstrated consistent negativity is to look at whether they'd been banned or restricted.

To speak to your specific situation, think on this: If the requirement for the IP boost is "avoid receiving any form of behavioral sanction for all 11 months of the regular Season," and you received your chat restriction after 9 months, then there's nothing to argue about.

You might argue that the requirements are unfair, but that's a hard argument to make, considering that 95% of players didn't receive any form of sanction this season, and so fulfilled those requirements.

And I sympathize. But... 2 things: This really isn't that big a deal, and if it becomes a bigger deal, then you'll have another chance next season.

Paper11 votes

This is where I disagree. I don't think looking at whether a person is banned or restricted on its own is the best way of figuring out which players demonstrated CONSISTENT negativity. I tried to explain people in this thread, but they just down vote me and assume I'm lying. I AM NOT CONSISTENTLY NEGATIVE. I was negative on a tilt for two months, that's it. The fact that I wasn't for the rest of the three years of playing proves the behaviour was NOT consistent, by definition of the word. I'm quite frankly sick of the down votes. I have done nothing to desrve such hatred, I just expressed my opinion and people had a go at me. Only a handful who have replied back have explained their opinions well, and I thank them for it and respect it, but guess what? they still down vote me. Honestly, i feel like reporting the spam down votes, its like unnecessary harassment.

Also, there are a bunch of players who think the ninety five percent statistic is bullshit. I read one of the articles that said out of the recent period, only 94 people got chat restrictions. I find that hard to believe. Millions of people play league, and you are telling me less than one percent received chat restrictions? Sorry, but there's some shady shit going on. I could even go the EUW forums, find more than 94 people with chat restrictions and prove that wrong.

The fact is, my chat restriction was 22 games, that's it. It means, in pure numbers, that I ruined 22 or less games in league. I am just sick of being called a liar, and people dodging my points because they cant admit that they cant answer back and actually made a good argument. But hey, some guy will come along and say I'm wrong about that too, and have no evidence to back it up with.

Jubbinaut2 votes

This is where I disagree. I don't think looking at whether a person is banned or restricted on its own is the best way of figuring out which players demonstrated CONSISTENT negativity. I tried to explain people in this thread, but they just down vote me and assume I'm lying. I AM NOT CONSISTENTLY NEGATIVE. I was negative on a tilt for two months, that's it. The fact that I wasn't for the rest of the three years of playing proves the behaviour was NOT consistent, by definition of the word. I'm quite frankly sick of the down votes. I have done nothing to desrve such hatred, I just expressed my opinion and people had a go at me. Only a handful who have replied back have explained their opinions well, and I thank them for it and respect it, but guess what? they still down vote me. Honestly, i feel like reporting the spam down votes, its like unnecessary harassment.

I'm going to ignore two years of your play-time for the express reason that this entire system only accounts for this season. So, since it doesn't care about Season 3 or before, I won't either.

Within that, you demonstrated consistent negativity over a period of two months. You were punished for that period of time. And, frankly, since you were demonstrably and admittedly unsportsmanlike for a full fifth of the measured period, I simply don't understand why you think you deserve the same reward as players who managed to not earn a restriction.

The very functions of the reporting system - requiring a percentage of reported games to games played - indicate that in at least 15% of your overall games, you were negative enough for someone to report you. That stands as Riot's definition of "consistent negativity." It's why you wound up with a chat restriction.

It's really weird to me that you're trying to argue that you did it ("I deserved it") but that you didn't do it ("I wasn't consistently negative"). And it doesn't matter. Over a long period of time, you showed poor sportsmanship. Why should that entitle you to a sportsmanship award?

Also, there are a bunch of players who think the ninety five percent statistic is bullshit. I read one of the articles that said out of the recent period, only 94 people got chat restrictions. I find that hard to believe. Millions of people play league, and you are telling me less than one percent received chat restrictions? Sorry, but there's some shady shit going on. I could even go the EUW forums, find more than 94 people with chat restrictions and prove that wrong.

A) Those players are suffering from what we call a "Confirmation Bias." They look at the forums and whatever else and say to themselves "Gee, every third post here is about some different guy who has a chat restriction! That must mean that some 33% of players got chat restricted!" And they ignore the thousands of people that don't bother using the League forums, or boards, or Reddit, or whatever thing they're looking at - the players who just log in and play the game and enjoy it by themselves or with their friends.

B) Define "recent period" (or better yet, source the article) and we can discuss it. Otherwise, you have to know that there's no point to even having brought it up.

The fact is, my chat restriction was 22 games, that's it. It means, in pure numbers, that I ruined 22 or less games in league.

You don't get one chat-restricted game per game of negativity. That would be silly. You get a number of chat restricted games based upon how long the system/reviewer expects it to take you to reform. If you've been mildly toxic for a very long time, you might get a lot of them, to give you time to break the habit. If it's only been a relatively short time - say, 2 months? - you might get only a few, to help shift you back into your old habits. But it's certainly not a direct 1-for-1 ratio. So a 22-game restriction doesn't mean you ruined 22 games.

Paper11 votes

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/rewards-positive-play

There's the source. The behaviour was not consistent because it was over a WHOLE SEASON. Sure, its consistent for two months, and like you said, its only one fifth of the time. I've played over 1500-2000 games. 20 percent of 1500 is 300. Seriously? I know I was not negative for 300 games. I have only EVER been toxic for those two months, and I have not played 300 games in two months. Just to emphasize again, of course I would have been reported outside of those two months, but from my perspective the overall numbers simply dont add up to 300.

I deserve a reward. Since when did I get an IP boost for season 3? I cant remember getting one. If they did that, then fine, but my overall behaviour says I still deserve the reward now. You said it yourself, its one fifth of the entire period. The majority of the time, I was sportsmanlike. That's the whole point of my post. They need to change the system IMO so that people with no chat restrictions or very few are eligible. That is not unreasonable. I replied to one of the other guys if you want to see the full explanation of that.

Where is the "Confirmation Bias"? All I was saying is that the claim "out of the recent period in the source, 94 people got chat restrictions" is false, because I can come up with a counterexample by finding more than 94 posts by more than 94 different people who have had a chat restriction. That claim is not relevant to the entire player base, since its a discrete number rather than a percentage. I think if you included the people who don't post on the forums, you could find even more people who have had chat restrictions, they just haven't bothered following it up on the forums.

It may not be a 1 to 1 ratio (assuming its the ratio of games reported to games chat restricted), but its definitely not a 1 to "less than 1" ratio. If you lose a college key, you probably have to pay £20 to replace it, but the key itself probably only takes £1 to manufacture. In that case, it would be like a 1 to "greater than 1" ratio, which means I would have be reported in less than 22 of those games.

Eleshakai2 votes

Read that post more accurately:

Reviewed approximately 11,150 players •11,052 players were neutral or positive (99.1%) •94 were chat restricted (0.84%) •4 were escalated for extreme toxicity (0.04%)

94 OUt OF 11150 that they reviewed during that specific pass. That's not saying 'only 94 were chat restricted' just that out of the 11150 people who they reviewed during that pass, only 94 were chat restricted.

Paper11 votes

My mistake, disregard the third paragraph in my previous post. I think the other parts of my post still hold. It would be nice if they released some more numbers e.g. the total amount of players they have reviewed so far. Otherwise, how can we judge whether the sample size here was reliable enough? Maybe its being picky, but in all the other passes, the percentages could be different.

Jubbinaut2 votes

You seem to be grasping at a thousand different straws for this argument, and almost none of them seem to actually relate to what you want. It's frankly getting confusing and distracting. So I'm going to focus on exactly two things in this post: Your link (and what those numbers actually mean) and the system you're arguing to change.

Second things first: The system.

You didn't get an IP boost for Season 3, because they weren't giving out sportsmanship rewards in Season 3. My point was that a player's behavior in previous seasons - whether positive or negative - has no bearing on whether or not they received this reward. Since they have no weight relating to the system in question, there's no reason for them to have any weight in any discussion about the system.

The requirements for this reward is to have received no behavioral sanctions of any sort during the 2014 season. You failed to do so. I don't see why that's complicated. If you did not maintain a positive behavioral standing (and you didn't, as you have admitted), why should you be rewarded as though you had?

First things second: The link.

Where is the "Confirmation Bias"? All I was saying is that the claim "out of the recent period in the source, 94 people got chat restrictions" is false, because I can come up with a counterexample by finding more than 94 posts by more than 94 different people who have had a chat restriction.

My comment regarding Confirmation Bias was unrelated to the "94 people" reference you made. It was, instead, relating to this quote: "Also, there are a bunch of players who think the ninety five percent statistic is bullshit."

But, again, that 94 players came from games played by a semi-random selection of posters in a thread started by Lyte to communicate with players about what kind of people they were seeing in their games. For each poster he responded to, he looked over the last 10 games they'd played, examined the punishment status of each other player in those games, and noted the numbers in his posted response. The totals of that exercise (combining each game he examined) were shown in the link you just gave me. Admittedly, more context relating to where those numbers came from would have been appropriate.

The purpose of that thread was to demonstrate to players that people often misremember their games and the other players in them - viewing them as more toxic than they actually were. Given the (extremely and admittedly unscientific) results, I think it did quite a bit to show the posters exactly how Confirmation Bias (the tendency to see what one wants and expects to see, and to dismiss evidence that contradicts it) and Negativity Bias (the tendency to remember negative experiences more clearly than positive experiences) affect how players look back at the games they've played.

However, that thread had nothing to do with demonstrating the actual numbers of players who had received sanctions across the overall community.

Paper11 votes

The System:

Basically I agree with what you are saying, but from my view they just sprung up this idea now instead of before the season even started. It probably would have improved behaviour because everyone would be focused on trying to concentrate on playing games properly for the reward.

What I believe holds weight is the behaviour in the other four fifths of the season. Because of the system, only that last one fifth actually appears to hold weight. It feels like if I did a maths exam ten times, where every question was 2+2, and I answered 4, all but one time, I'd get a mark of zero. There is no actual credit given for the other nine correct answers. That is whats unfair. Why not make a reward system that gives credit for those other nine answers?

The Link:

Thank you very much, I understand where this comes from now. I have no problem with riot giving away statistics like this. I accept that this is evidence, however, from the games I've been in, that is evidence that disproves that statistic i.e. I believe less than ninety five percent is more accurate. This is the Confirmation Bias you are talking about (Correct me if I'm still misunderstanding the definition), but I can assure you. After talking some time to think about this stuff, I honestly think that if I counted the number of people who were toxic and who weren't in my games, I would find that maybe on average, one or two people were toxic. I mean by average, a game where there are usually no toxic players on the winning side, and one or two people arguing on the losing side. From my experience, that's a reasonable guess for an average, although you may have a different experience. Anyway, the bottom line is that I think many people would agree that the percentage is above 50 percent, or even 75 percent, but not higher than 90 percent, assuming there was negligible confirmation bias.

Jubbinaut2 votes

The System:

Basically I agree with what you are saying, but from my view they just sprung up this idea now instead of before the season even started. It probably would have improved behaviour because everyone would be focused on trying to concentrate on playing games properly for the reward.

What I believe holds weight is the behaviour in the other four fifths of the season. Because of the system, only that last one fifth actually appears to hold weight. It feels like if I did a maths exam ten times, where every question was 2+2, and I answered 4, all but one time, I'd get a mark of zero. There is no actual credit given for the other nine correct answers. That is whats unfair. Why not make a reward system that gives credit for those other nine answers?

Well... okay. I see your point. But you're viewing each segment as separate. They're viewing the season as a whole single entity. It's more akin to a test with a single, complicated, 5-part answer that, if you miss a single part, the whole answer's wrong (not unlike more complicated math questions). And you got close! But, unfortunately, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades (and thermo-nuclear devices).

When the goal is to get it all, you don't get credit for getting part of it.

After talking some time to think about this stuff, I honestly think that if I counted the number of people who were toxic and who weren't in my games, I would find that maybe on average, one or two people were toxic.

So here's the thing about that: It's not helpful information. You play a tiny percentage of games compared to the overall community. Your games all have a specific factor in common (you) that can affect the outcome of the examination. Your games don't generally follow those players over time, and so while you may be seeing them as toxic in that game, that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic players (or that they aren't, if they're being nice!). And yeah, it's exactly the combination of Confirmation and Negativity Biases that the thread I was mentioning was intended to bring to light.

Riot's numbers, however, come from a comparison of the actual number of restrictions/bans they've given out, and the actual number of active players. More, it's information gathered from an external perspective, with strictly controlled inputs.

Paper11 votes

Ok, well when you put it that way, even some of the more complicated maths questions like the ones you are referring to give marks for "method". I have to be careful, I'm from the uk so the methods of assessment here may be different from the ones in NA. Anyway, when I was at university, the exam questions were split into parts in a way, but we're also closely related, so getting a part wrong would mean you couldn't get all the marks for further parts. There were still method marks though, and I guess what I would like to see is some effort to try and implement a marking system such as this for positive behaviour in league.

In response to the second quote, what you described are indeed the problems with my proposed survey. I am really making some educated guesses with this. The actual proper investigation would take a long time. I don't think riot gave enough information about the procedure of getting their numbers for me to be convinced that the conclusions of it are true. if I was a business wanting to convince my sponsors that an ongoing problem is being solved, these would be the numbers I would want to see. it's so coincidental that simply stating the numbers is not enough from a scientific point of view.

GhØst Project2 votes

Glug I see your point, I really do. I've had games where I rage and blame my team too. I'm pretty sure Riot is aware that everyone has bad games and lashes out at times. I understand that it's frustrating that you feel like you've behaved 80% of the time and were grouped in with the toxic players anyway. However, I do believe that Riot is doing what they think will best reward players who deserve rewards while weeding out those who don't.

You said there was a two month period over this season during which you were toxic as all hell. I know it sucks, but over that period you were consistently negative... if it were a few games here and there, you never would have made it to the tribunal, and if it was an understandable rage (i.e. they instigated it) you never would have been punished.

I know you're not going to appreciate that so let me put it another way. You did the math and found that your 2 months of toxicity was roughly equal to 20% of the season. Let's say that everyone is toxic 20% of the time... if that were the case, EVERY SINGLE GAME would have a toxic asshole ON BOTH TEAMS. I'm sure you've ran into players you consider toxic before and know that it really only takes one person to ruin a game for the entire team, if not both teams. Again, I know it sucks, but if everyone were in your position, the League community would be even more toxic than it already is.

I'm not saying this because I think you're a terrible person or because I think you deserve to be punished -- I don't even know you!! What I AM saying is that Riot has the hapless job of trying to improve the League community through incentives and punishments, and all things considered, they're doing a pretty damn good job of it. Their system is as transparent as it can be without allowing every toxic asshole on the internet to take advantage of it (knowing exactly what they can and cannot be punished for), and honestly I think the rate of punishment is lower than it needs to be, based off of the toxicity of the community. I'm sorry you didn't get rewards, and I'm absolutely positive that less deserving players DID, but it's simply not possible for a perfect system to exist because people are assholes. I think the best you can do is focus on improving your play and being constructive in game... and if people don't want to listen to you? Well... they're not going to listen to you, so raging at them and bringing punishments on yourself isn't going to help anything.

Paper11 votes

Thanks for sharing your views mate. I partly agree and disagree really, I'll try and explain why.

I believe Riot is doing what they think is best to reward players who deserve rewards and those who don't. I just think it could be made better. It depends on whether they feel their current banning system is most ideal for what they want to achieve. If they want to achieve a system where if you are even banned once, you don't get good sportsmanship awards, so be it, however I wouldn't want to be as harsh as that. If we take me for example (and its me who only truly knows my overall behaviour throughout the whole season), then I failed the requirements, even though from my point of view its extremely harsh. How many people are in the same boat as me? nobody knows, but I believe there are a large amount of people (not relative to any other number, but just a significant large number) who have probably received one chat restriction, and then never received another one ever. Basically what I'm saying is, it doesn't hurt to include such people in a rewards scheme IMO, and its worth the time to set up such a condition because there is enough people to justify doing it for. It would also maximise the amount of people you make happy while still keeping true to your values of fair play.

The only thing I don't appreciate was the original wording. I cant recall who brought it up, but I told them that I agree it was fair to say I was consistently negative over a period of two months, but not fair to say it was consistently negative for over a year (the key word obviously being consistency). Concerning the toxicity, I must say from my experience that its not far off that every game for me has one toxic player on either side, and it more often occurs in ranked for some reason. I should point out to not be misleading that the majority of those 1500-2000 games are actually normal games. Anyone who wants to check can look at my profile, lolking e.t.c.. Obviously I cant say the same for the rest of the community. Another thing I can say is that some of the friends have experienced similar people in their games, and also in duo q games, so at least I can say that I am not the only one.

I give respect to everyone at Riot for the work they have put in to improve the state of player behaviour in league of legends. I admit, its extremely hard to implement something into the system like I described in the first paragraph. If truly toxic players knew that they could get away with only on chat restriction, knowing that at the end they will still get the rewards, they can definitely exploit that. I don't know the solution to this, but I want to encourage the idea of finding a solution, rather than just sitting down and being happy with a good, but not absolutely optimal rewards system. Of course, you are not going to create a perfect system, but if there is a good chance to maximise efficiency, to better reward people for sportsmanlike behaviour and to forgive minor lapses (my opinion), then I would very much like to see Riot take that chance.

In the meantime, I already stated in the original post in the other thread that I will continue to behave as well as I used to before those two months, because the bottom line is, I don't really need to "reform" as some like to put it, but rather just be calmer about playing the game.

Jubbinaut1 votes

The point I was making with the "complicated maths" comparison is that, after a certain level of complexity, you can perform all the steps right except for one small mistake, and get a completely wrong (and hugely different) answer from what it should be. Which - when the answer is judged as a whole - invalidates all the other, valid work.

The judgments issued here are fairly granular. It's based purely on the previous season, rather than the life of the account. However, it's a judgment of the entirety of the season. Which, y'know, makes sense. The other seasonal rewards aren't based on your best or worst ranking over the season. They're based on the aggregate of that, measured as where you wound up at the end of the season. <shrug>

As for the rest, well... I have no argument that doesn't boil down to "It's a bad idea for them to give out too much information." I don't have better numbers, nor do I expect to see them. But I see no valid reason to doubt that they're giving out actual data.

Paper11 votes

Concerning the "complicated maths", I see what you mean. I guess the differences between what I see and you see is that whether it should boil down to as a whole. I can understand that if Riot give out the rewards this way, then at least its concise, where as if you suddenly start adding more conditions (such as must have less than so many chat restrictions), the information wont be so clear. Overall, if we put a vote to it, then we know people like the current way of doing things. I should note though that there have been other games that have broken the "season" down into segments and given rewards that way. I am not an expert of Hearthstone, but the last time I checked their seasons were a month (?) long, and gave new card back's depending on your ranking during that month. If I wanted to apply that to league, then my first instinct is to give small rewards after every new patch.

Given that most people would vote to keep things the way they are, I have to accept the judgement currently in place. The other seasonal rewards procedure is a different, although similar discussion entirely. I haven't read too many threads about it, but I believe people have pointed out that there are some issues with that procedure, such as the difference it would cause between quality of games nearer the end of the season.

Yes I can see how giving too much information out is a problem. The only reason I can think of to doubt the data is this idea that Riot have been careful with making announcements before, often taking more time than needed. The scrapping of Magma chamber comes to mind, where the basic jist of the story is that they showcased it at All-stars, made an FAQ page saying that it would be released sometime the year after that, and then decided to write an apology article, giving a bunch of statistics to say why it wasn't worth developing. Of course, some people thought the statistics were inaccurate, because the basis of the statistics was basically 1v1 on howling abyss (snowdown showdown?), NOT the new magma chamber most people really wanted. Other people also claimed that they could program a workable magma chamber in a short amount of time, while riot claimed some unknown complications. For anyone who finds any inaccuracies with that, I apologise, it was a while ago. Overall however, I admit its still a weak argument, it all riot said this, the community said that, but that's where my thought process stands at the moment.

Jubbinaut1 votes

I really like the idea of doing smaller rewards for smaller portions of time, actually. One idea I was ballparking with a friend was doing something moderately large (such as a summoner icon) for a seasonal sportsmanship reward. And that would fit very nicely with minor recurring rewards on, say, a monthly or quarterly basis.

However, it is a bit early in the game, so to speak, for these kinds of rewards. There's no telling where it'll go from here, but I know that I'm very excited to see movement in this direction. For now, I guess what I'm saying is, keep a smile on and let's see where this goes.

I won't argue with you about their announcements regarding Magma Chamber and those similar, for two reasons: First, I don't really know anything about how that went because I wasn't paying much attention; and second, those were announcements from a very different team.

Lyte and the PB&J team have been pretty terrible about communicating their upcoming plans and their expectations for player reactions to those plans (for example, when the first wave of the 2-week escalated bans hit, almost no one knew how to approach getting responses from Riot about them). However, when it comes to communicating the results of their findings, they're pretty solid, and very consistent.

Paper11 votes

That's awesome to hear. The summoner icon would be a pretty good place to start with that. Further down the line, what would you think of the idea of including small rp bonuses in such a system? I think the idea would be that one could accumulate these rewards, and by the end of maybe say a year, you could have enough ip to buy say one or two skins.

Now that it's been a couple of days since I started the thread, I feel much happier that something constructive has been produced. Makes me glad that I started this thread, the only regret being that I didn't get my original message across as well as I would have liked, but I got there eventually :).

Yeah the magma chamber announcements can only be blamed on that particular department. But still, one bad apple spoils the bunch. I hope I used that phrase correctly :D.

I suppose if there is the opportunity to tell lyte and his team this feedback, I would definitely support it.

Anyway, thanks for this discussion. I have enjoyed it very much. Sounds like you have a pretty good grasp for this kind of stuff, and I hope other people can be inspired by your views. Maybe that's overly cliche, but whatever, that's how much respect I have. :)

Eleshakai1 votes
  1. The number of chat restrictions you receive has nothing to do with the number of games you've impacted negatively.

  2. Nobody's saying you've been consistently negative over your entire time here. What we're claiming is that you were consistently negative for a large enough period of time to get punished(and it doesn't take THAT long if you're consistently negative) and that because you were punished during this season, you do not deserve to be eligible for this season's 'clean record' rewards. That's all. We're not calling you a horrible person, we're not claiming you're constantly going around ruining everyone's games... just that you were negative enough during this season to get punished and that is enough to make you ineligible.

  3. The 95% statistic seems perfectly legitimate to me, and I see no reason for them to lie. But I suppose there's no way for us to be sure, so you can be cynical if you'd like.

  4. I'm going to repeat what I said: There is literally no use calling someone's mistakes out. I'd lay 99% odds that person KNOWS they screwed up. They don't need you rubbing it in to them. All you're doing is making them upset and if someone is pissed off at you do you REALLY think they'll take your advice seriously? Let's take this a bit further... so you've got a person who is already upset at themself for screwing up - trust me... ANYONE who goes 0/3 knows something's going wrong - and then you're having the gall to tell them you know better then them. Basically you're just giving them an outlet for that frustration. I'm not going to claim it's RIGHT that they get angry at you, because it's not - but it IS logical. And, as such, in the best interest of winning the game... the best thing for you to do is NOT give them that outlet. Focus on the game. Try to make broad strategic calls to win it(things like 'okay guys, we need to play safe' or 'let's get vision control of x and bait it' - never anything directed to a specific person), if you're in a position to do so make a big roam and help them... or get a different lane going, or just win your lane hard enough that you can carry them. There are things you can do that don't involve calling them on their mistakes, throwing them even further off their game, and possibly embroiling your ENTIRE TEAM in an argument.

  5. This is just a personal piece of advice, but it has helped me to tone down my attitude a lot and improve the way I look at things. I stopped looking at winning as a goal. Winning is the result of my goal. My goal is to become a better player. As this happens, I will win more games. By focusing on becoming a better player, other players' performance becomes less important to me which means I criticize them less. Losing is no longer a big deal because I can still accomplish my goal even in a game I lose - that is to improve as a player. It also allows me to be more honest with myself and it allows me to apologize for my own mistakes more. Take the advice or leave it, but it's made a huge difference for me personally, maybe it can help you too.

Paper12 votes

This seems fair. This is something that I can take on board, thanks.

  1. I don't really know how it works. That conversation is ongoing with the other gentlemen, but I agree with this statement.

  2. I think some people here would disagree with you. Strat was quite vocal in saying how much he hated me. The thirteen or so people who down voted probably hate me, but since they wont respond I cant really make that conclusion. That's why I was a bit angry, not because they had a different opinion, but they displayed their opinion very aggressively towards me. Anyway, I understand your point.

  3. Yes I guess we wont. I don't want to be cynical, its just I've learnt that you should question anything that sounds too good to be true.

  4. The further explanation was fairer than the original statement. That is something I can take on board.

  5. I honestly think for me that this isn't going to work the way I want it too. I'll try again, but its just inevitable that I am going to have that one game which annoys me. Part of improving is map awareness, and if I'm looking at other parts of the map where people are losing, the temptation is always going to be there. Oh well, ill take the advice and see where it gets me.

I hope this is a fair response. If other people who respond try their best to have a conversation like this one, then Ill be much more open.

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