Boards›[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

The Carrot or the Stick? (@AllPeople)

Swuft·8/26/2014, 1:21:46 PM·16 votes·6,571 views

The age old debate: does rewarding or punishing players have a greater effect in changing their behavior? In this Wall O' Text I will attempt to convince you, the reader, and more importantly Riot, the Sole-Arbitrators-of-All-Things-Rule-Related, that in this greed filled world we inhabit today the carrot is oftentimes more effective. Let's take this step by step.

1. Defining the Carrot The carrot is a reward/incentive, given to players based on their dedication to upholding the rules that are intended to make LoL a fun experience. In other words, players who follow the rules are rewarded for their behavior. The purpose of this reward is to positively encourage players to behave well within the confines of LoL.

2. Defining the Stick The stick is a punishment, given to players when they prove they are* incapable of upholding the rules that are intended to make LoL a fun experience.* The purpose of the stick is to use fear as a tool to keep players in line. Basically, if you don't want to get punished, follow the rules.

Current System Currently, Riot heavily favors the stick over the carrot. Unfortunately, it is nigh impossible to own enough sticks to keep LoL players in line. Yes, bans and restrictions are nice, but their effects are highly individual. I.E, each ban only removes one tiny part of the larger problem (and often only for a little while).

So how, if there are not enough sticks, can we make LoL less toxic and more fun? What this beleaguered community desperately needs is a change in the outlook. Bans and chat restrictions will NEVER, and I repeat, **NEVER **make a noticeable difference in making the LoL community less toxic. Instead of trying to remove small bits of the problem, we need to focus on improving what we have already.

PROPOSED CHANGE Break out the carrots!!!!(while keeping some of the sticks within close reach). If players behave well, reward them! It doesn't have to be big; maybe even just an IP-Boost every 3 months or something.

Conclusion The point is, it is clear the stick alone isn't working. They say don't fix it if it isn't broken, but goodness gracious, it is definitely broken. Adding carrots to the equation might not be the cure-all, but I firmly believe they can make a big difference when combined with sticks. Believe it or not, there is a small, less vocal minority of players out there who honestly want to see the LoL community improved. Please. Consider this.

~A Concerned Citizen (P.A.F., People Against Flamers, Certified)

P.S. If that argument is not enough, consider this: Gangplank has oranges to remove his scurvy; where are the oranges(carrots) to remove the scurvy people experience in LoL everyday?

32 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk8/27/2014, 1:51:40 AM11 votes

Interesting! Would love to hear your guys' thoughts on this!

Deep Terror Nami8/27/2014, 2:18:00 AM6 votes

Only a very small percentage of people ever receive the stick, and most of those never see the stick again. The stick works.

As for having carrots, they would need something that everyone from vs. AI casuals, normals, bronze to challenger, all these people can benefit from the carrot. e.g. giving IP boosts is nice for newer players, but veterans have exactly zero use for. A good carrot might be;

  • Fancy borders
  • Summoner Icons
  • Ward skins
  • Custom colors for Active items (Zhonya's, Sweeper/Scrying Orb) or Summoner spells

Basically, time and effort must be used on Riot's end to create incentives. What we need to do is convince them that it is worth their time. How? Hell if I know, but I'd even pay for palette swap actives.

  • Edit: Playing off Omnipherious's idea, each day you got a +1 honor you receive Good Behavior Points that can be redeemed in the store for the specific Goody-two-shoes carrot incentives listed above!
Omnipherious8/27/2014, 2:19:34 AM4 votes

I agree, carrots pls.

item 3166 ? Close enough.

Carrots Reward people for maintaining positive behaviour e.g. "Congratulations Summoner, you have not been reported for any negativity in the past 100 games. Here's a Skin Discount Token for your continued good sportsmanship!"

Encourage helping other players and distribution of honor e.g. "You have recently been recognized as a positive force in the League of Legends community. Have a 10-win IP boost and stay positive!"

Encourage curbing toxicity i.e. Reward players with +200 IP for contributing to the reformation of players with negative behaviour.

Introduce LP bonuses/penalties, Ranked is about Teamwork not Ego e.g. Maintaining positive behaviour gives you +10% LP per win and reduces LP loss by 10%; Consistently poor behaviour nets you 25% reduced LP per win and increased LP loss.

PurpleKingCrazy8/27/2014, 2:15:10 AM3 votes

This system definitely needs a better rewarding systen.

So, more yays than nays!

(And when I mean by that, I do approve of more carrots in league.)

However, It is concerning trhat Riot should not "give cookies" to everyone. Yet, some rewards from doing your better in ranked, especially if you are unskilled, provides a better chance of learning better and getting stronger every time. But then you gotta "secrete" those pesky trolls that make the team worse than they are in ranked.

GhastlyGhoulMan8/27/2014, 3:17:50 AM2 votes

I think that should definitely be part of the honor system. Use rewards in a Pavlovian-like way to encourage good sportsmanship from people. :)

Orisi8/27/2014, 3:49:12 AM2 votes

I have to agree with this. I am open about the fact that while I do try to be a nice and positive player, and try to contribute to good atmospheres when they arrive, I can often be negative and get frustrated at the game, and we all do from time to time.

But the fact is, if the system's entire method of trying to prevent me from doing that, or persuade me not to do that, is stick based, it will fail. As Lyte has said repeatedly, very few of the community are actively consistently toxic, but the fact is much of the negativity and toxicity does come from those who are NOT consistently toxic, and will likely never receive a punishment for a behaviour they rarely exhibit. However, this fact does not make the experience any less negative.

Now, if I was sat in a game feeling stressed, but also felt like if I remained positive as I do in other games, I would actively be rewarded for it, perhaps through bonus IP, I might make more effort to repress the negativity, as opposed to having the ability to think "I haven't lashed out in awhile so it won't matter if I do". Maybe something as simple as putting a slightly stronger curve on the amount of teamwork/helpful/friendly rewards, but having those actively feed back into your IP, so that when they pop up, you know not only have the other players recognised having a good game with you, but you've gained maybe 20-30IP thanks to them recognising it, can make it feel more worthwhile. Having more consistent or attainable rewards long-term, like the skin discount tokens or even, maybe, the integration of these skin recolours as a non-cash redeemable reward for positive play, would be a great step forward, not only in the reformation of toxic players, but in the lowering of general negativity among the non-toxic.

MrBuffington8/27/2014, 5:17:06 PM2 votes

https://i.imgur.com/kCMhErX.png

Mattarias8/27/2014, 2:06:11 AM2 votes

I dunno, I think maybe a lot of people, in their mad dash to the "carrot" might leave a decidedly unpretty wake. Or simply return to their bad habits. Like, a lot of people either didn't care about ribbons, or lost them and went "meh", never trying for them again.

I think the carrot and the stick both need to be used in equal measure.

AvariceSyn8/27/2014, 2:18:05 AM2 votes

The problem is that everyone is different. While people generally fall into broad categories, treatment or prevention of bad behavior, and rewards for good behavior, are based on the individual as far as effectiveness goes. Generally, I believe it's a good idea to contain both when the group of subjects is so grand that handling people on an individual level is nigh impossible.

Riot has already dabbled in granting the carrot in the form of the Santa Baron icon handed out to players who displayed good behavior during winter holiday. As far as its effectiveness, I'm not sure how it worked out. But it would certainly be nice to see more carrots than sticks.

ps. Had an all night Battlestar Galactica season 3 marathon last night with the life-duo, this thread is totally relevant!

JacobusSimon8/27/2014, 2:25:41 AM2 votes

This goes into the psychology field of operant conditioning, the modification of behaviour by the manipulation of surrounding events. The distinction drawn from there is between

  1. "positive reinforcement": providing something a person likes (perhaps IP, in this case) when that person does something you want, encouraging that behaviour
    versus
  2. "negative punishment": removing something a person likes (chat ability) when that person does something you don't want, discouraging that behaviour Studies generally show the former to be more effective in modifying behaviour in a lasting manner. This is not to say that negative punishment is useless, rather that positive reinforcement shows results faster and for a longer time.

For that reason I would be in favour of rewarding desirable behaviour in the community.

Wullf8/27/2014, 10:43:38 AM2 votes

I beleive that Carrot was once tried. I am talking about Honor Ribbons.

But it failed. Not many people is using this system.

Thing is that when you end the game you automaticly press "home" button, or you go looking at damage statistics or you report someone for being such a prick. Not many people take time to think about their teammates to give them honor not mentioning the enemy. Neither do I. (well sometime I do u´but mostly not)

But.

Is not the solution close at hand. Is not the time to revive it?

GundayMonday8/27/2014, 4:52:17 PM2 votes

I like the idea, but seems like a waste of time since RiotLyte has recently revealed that ~99% of players are positive. That's a lot of good behavior points to give out (wouldn't feel special since everyone would have the rewards). Feel like this isn't as big of an issue anymore since the player behavior team is kicking ass and taking names.

Elphrihaim8/27/2014, 7:16:07 AM1 votes

Upvoted because closing comment.

ShadowKnight12248/27/2014, 7:50:36 AM1 votes

It always makes me extremely suspicious when people complain about the sticks/bans/etc. Lyte has stated over and over that the truly toxic part of the community is merely a minority when compared to the rest of the playerbase.

You shouldn't be afraid of the stick. There IS enough sticks for the toxic part of the community and it won't touch you unless you really deserve it.

Now the reward idea in and of itself isn't bad. It would be nice to have an incentive to be nice and positive in game (particularly in the face of toxicity).

TenSlashTen8/27/2014, 9:35:13 AM1 votes

Something that's actually intelligent. b

Ironclad Dragon8/27/2014, 3:57:26 AM1 votes

I'm on-board for this.

Cuix8/27/2014, 4:01:55 AM1 votes

They already know. They've already talked about it... many, many, MANY times.

Furyful Fawful8/27/2014, 6:33:53 AM1 votes

Whatever way is decided to add the "carrot" I don't think it should be entirely clear how it's gotten. It should be more like "You were generally positive, so here's a reward/points towards the reward" to give players an incentive to be good players instead of players that farm for these points even when they don't deserve them.

Also, I thing I saw during my stint with DOTA 2 is a pop-up after some games asking me how I would rate some specific member of my team. I think that might go along well with the honor system to gauge how positive a summoner acts in-game.

Might.