This game encourages toxic behavior.

Norwack·Jun 24, 2015·20 votes·2,403 views

You know what's funny? How Riot goes out of their way to give chat restrictions and ban players for having a toxic attitude, when it's their fault this community is toxic. The core mechanics of this game are punishing and promote toxic behavior.

Before a game starts you get matched with trolls and such. There's always that one kid who says, "Top or feed" and is completely serious about it. If they don't get their way, they intentionally feed or just don't cooperate at all with the team which screws you over. Even better when that one kid instalocks when somebody else called the lane first, and then proceeds to completely get wrecked in their lane. If you dodge the game you get a short LeaverBuster penalty but if you start the game you already know you're starting it with toxic players who might make you lose.

You can be 18-2-7 carrying your team so hard, and still get completely wrecked because your bot lane fed. Imagine in Call of Duty if every time you killed someone you became stronger and your guns became more powerful, that's exactly the case with League. All it takes is 1-2 people to feed the enemy team to the point where losing is imminent. I don't mind losing but when you are winning your lane and see the rest of your team getting completely wrecked only 10 minutes in it's frustrating. This is a competitive game, people want to win and naturally get angry when their team doesn't cooperate right.

Now you're 20 minutes into a game and the enemy team already has 5 turrets while you have none. Their ADC and mid laner are fed so hard that if you try to engage them you'll get deleted. So naturally you try to surrender, but your surrender vote fails 1-4. Your whole team is getting smashed on to the point where coming back is already impossible but they insist on wasting another 20-30 minutes on a game that was a loss from the start. And now the enemy team is laughing at you in /all chat. How do you expect people to not get frustrated Riot? This happens all the time and is completely aggravating how you can't do anything about it.

Instead of fixing the core mechanics that cause the toxicity in the first place, Riot decides to just censor the community. News flash, when a player is chat restricted that makes it even harder for them to communicate with their team, only promoting toxic behavior. Chat restrictions and bans do not solve the problem of toxicity at all, in fact only making it worse. Times like these where it makes you wonder how League of Legends is the most popular game in the world with all of these apparent problems.

52 Comments

MadmanWithBoxJun 24, 20156 votes

It's a mistake to assume that Riot does not care about intentional feeders. It's not unusual to forget that Riot punishes non-verbal, disruptive behavior as well as chat abuse, especially when you are the recipient of a chat restriction. Personally, I feel like it would provide useful clarity for Riot to inform us when they take disciplinary action against someone that we report.
It is true that there is no context that makes it OK to be rude or mean in-chat. It's understandable to want to lash out in frustration, especially when you're stuck in a losing game with a griefer. But there's no reason for Riot to make an exception to this rule for circumstances. Just because Annoying Stranger #465 is doing a bad doesn't mean you get to do a bad, too.

Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, we hate it when random jerks waste our precious free time. But we're expected to handle it like adults and bite our tongues. Scream at your monitor and throw your keyboard if you have to, but taking your frustrations to chat is unacceptable. I would recommend finding a way to cope that does not actually make the situation worse.

BakedLotionJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's a mistake to assume that Riot does not care about intentional feeders. It's not unusual to forget that Riot punishes non-verbal, disruptive behavior as well as chat abuse, especially when you are the recipient of a chat restriction. Personally, I feel like it would provide useful clarity for Riot to inform us when they take disciplinary action against someone that we report.

It is true that there is no context that makes it OK to be rude or mean in-chat. It's understandable to want to lash out in frustration, especially when you're stuck in a losing game with a griefer. But there's no reason for Riot to make an exception to this rule for circumstances. Just because Annoying Stranger #465 is doing a bad doesn't mean you get to do a bad, too.

Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, we hate it when random jerks waste our precious free time. But we're expected to handle it like adults and bite our tongues. Scream at your monitor and throw your keyboard if you have to, but taking your frustrations to chat is unacceptable. I would recommend finding a way to cope that does not actually make the situation worse.

LOL Riot cares about intent feeders? Explain to me why they have no system to ban them out. Everytime they announce a new player behavior system, its ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS about chat. Never fucking once have they announced : "Oh, this system is made to ensure bans to intentional feeders and trolls" Never. Fucking. Once. Who the fuck cares about the actual game when we can ensure everyone is spitting out unicorn farts? This is honestly how i feel about Riot at the moment. I like the game, I don't care how you speak to me.

Hey Trynd, I know you're feeding the enemy on purpose and all, but I hope you're having a great day and I just want you to know that you are a PERFECT example of how people should act!!! -sarcasm

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

Never? Not even once?

What about this, then:

The Reform System just detected the first intentional feeder in #LeagueOfLegends. We'll let it learn some more before we start the bans.

Or this:

We've already begun tests using pattern recognition to detect intentional feeders, and will incorporate it into the system in the future.

How about this:

An Intentional Feeder System is in testing right now, and actually has been banning thousands of feeders every week.

All those were found with a quick glance through Lyte's Reddit profile. Took me about 5 minutes total. And I know there's more further back, because I've been reading his posts about developing a "Feederbuster" system for months.

BakedLotionJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Never? Not even once?

What about this, then:

Or this:

How about this:

All those were found with a quick glance through Lyte's Reddit profile. Took me about 5 minutes total. And I know there's more further back, because I've been reading his posts about developing a "Feederbuster" system for months.

They never hit live. They just say its in testing for a few years.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

Let me quote again, real quick: "actually has been banning thousands of feeders each week."

Emphasis mine.

BakedLotionJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Let me quote again, real quick: "actually has been banning thousands of feeders each week."

Emphasis mine.

Please, if they were really banning thousands each week, we wouldn't be seeing them every other game. And if they really were, why aren't they announcing the progress through the boards instead of a reddit page? Everytime they make a new system for chats, they announce it everywhere. But when they do it with trolls? Naw just dump it into reddit, the non official LoL website.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

You say that like they actually communicate effectively about any of their Player Behavior systems. Which is funny, because my biggest complaint about Riot is how terrible their communication is regarding their Player Behavior systems.

But maybe - just, y'know, maybe - they aren't issuing a major announcement about it because they aren't done with it, yet? That would explain why the posts sound like they're continuing to iterate and improve on it.

If you're seeing intentional feeders every other game, I dunno what to tell you. Congratulations on being a statistical outlier, I guess? Most players don't see them nearly that often. I personally can't remember the last time I saw one. Assuming I ever did.

RysophageJun 24, 20156 votes

This game makes you angry, and then bans you for getting angry LOL.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

It's not the "getting angry" part that earns the ban. It's the "displaying negative/disruptive behavior due to an inability to control that anger" part that earns the ban.

That's a pretty big distinction.

LaisenbergJun 24, 20154 votes

So now I'm just auto locking and trolling in ranked after i got suspended 2 times. Trolling in queue is pretty fun too. Fun fact: if u afk or become toxic, u get punished. But if u just give up and go feed 2/20, nothing happens. You may even be able to chat restrict the players trying to win.

SkywalkerOGJun 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

So now I'm just auto locking and trolling in ranked after i got suspended 2 times. Trolling in queue is pretty fun too. Fun fact: if u afk or become toxic, u get punished. But if u just give up and go feed 2/20, nothing happens. You may even be able to chat restrict the players trying to win.

This, is the reason OP made this post. GG Riot.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This, is the reason OP made this post. GG Riot.

Exact reason. But in todays society when the practice in competitive games is to not keep score it leads to behavior like this because these people are taught to try and not do. IMO it makes for a very passive way of thinking. The end result is it's ok to waste other peoples time as long as you try. Suck as much as you want and never make it a goal to improve but as long as you try instead of do it's ok. Never mind that this is just as toxic as telling someone they suck. I am sorry but it should not be the rule that everyone has the right to participate in anything they want to.

This type of thinking encourages failure, period. It's no wonder that here in America we have raised the dumbest generation of teenagers in the history of America. That's not an opinion either. That is a fact. Look it up. Most of you probably can't.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 25, 20151 votes

The only way you could "chat restrict the players trying to win" is if they rage instead of just trying to carry a bad player. Raging, trolling, etc will generally get you banned if you do it frequently, but there's no reason to ban someone for being bad at the game. Yeah it's hard to carry shit teammates, but the games where you're strong enough to do it you feel like a bad ass, so it's not that bad.

LaisenbergJun 25, 20153 votes

I can go 2/20 intentionally straight up feeding and not get banned. Cause i was just having a bad game.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 25, 20151 votes

So "cause I was having a bad game" and "intentionally straight up feeding" seem to contradict each other, unless you mean "upset" by bad game, in which case, at least you're not raging. The thing is, someone going 2-20 is actually feeding way less gold than someone going 10-10 because of the low value of kills on people with death streaks. So the enemy isn't that strong bc of the feed, where as if you consistently kill the people killing the feeder you get the full value each time and can get fed enough to carry the 4v5 game. Yeah if you're not significantly better than your opponents then it's an issue. However, it'll happen to people on the other side too, and if you're a pleasant teammate, it happens less often. I think I have someone rage/troll/afk/whatever on my side maybe once every 10 games at the most, but that's not luck, it's the fact that I'm decent at getting my team to work together and keeping good morale (plus I generally duo que w/ people I played games w/ in the past and will only duo w/ people who are super positive in game, so they keep morale up too and people don't rage as much).

I don't know what your rank is but I think bronze is the only MMR I've played where people are jerks on a consistent basis, and it's in part bc even if they lose games on a regular basis bc they throw, well they just drop to bronze. Bronze however generally has this behavior on both sides, and since people in bronze can be kinda petty, it tends to happen less if you do really well in lane, and happen more on enemy teams if you crush your lane opponent. Even if your bot gives a triple kill up when your jg ganks, if you're 3-0 w/ first blood top or mid, and then roam/tp bot and get the shut down and dragon people will generally keep trying if you're willing to carry them and encourage them even if they do poorly, so bronze can be more fun than grief bc it's so easy to out play when no one respects the damage/tankiness of the champ you are playing.

EleshakaiJun 24, 20154 votes

Frustration does not lead to toxicity unless you have no respect for yourself.

Get some self respect and start acting like a decent person and frustration won't lead you to treat others like crap.

DragfinJun 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Frustration does not lead to toxicity unless you have no respect for yourself.

Get some self respect and start acting like a decent person and frustration won't lead you to treat others like crap.

What you are saying is there is a double standard then?

Why is that ok? Why is it not ok to get frustrated because assholes want to be dicks?

Why are those assholes not being dealt with?

I think that is the whole point. This passive approach people want you to take to assholes and dicks are why the world is becoming what it is.

How come that side never gets addressed in a more productive manner?

They cause most of the problems in League but are not being dealt with and it frustrates people. In anything that has any type of competitive aspect to it you will have people get pissed.

Are you saying that you are a better person because you can tolerate it?

Why is apathy always the stance when it comes to dealing with the assholes and dicks who do these type of things they know will piss people off?

EleshakaiJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What you are saying is there is a double standard then?

Why is that ok? Why is it not ok to get frustrated because assholes want to be dicks?

Why are those assholes not being dealt with?

I think that is the whole point. This passive approach people want you to take to assholes and dicks are why the world is becoming what it is.

How come that side never gets addressed in a more productive manner?

They cause most of the problems in League but are not being dealt with and it frustrates people. In anything that has any type of competitive aspect to it you will have people get pissed.

Are you saying that you are a better person because you can tolerate it?

Why is apathy always the stance when it comes to dealing with the assholes and dicks who do these type of things they know will piss people off?

It's perfectly okay to get frustrated. It's not okay to let that frustration lead you to treating others poorly.

Frustration is natural. Being able to DEAL WITH FRUSTRATION without letting it turn you into a jerk is important. IF you're a decent person, you'll recognize the frustration and be able to deal with it in a healthy way. IT is not healthy to mistreat others.

If you see someone committing a crime, you don't follow them home and commit it back to them. You report it to the police and do whatever you can to provide accurate information to help ensure the truth is seen.

Same goes for someone being a jerk. You don't be a jerk right back to them, you report them and provide an accurate and complete account of the situation so that it can be dealt with. And, if needed, provide support to the one who was hurt by it.

The assholes are being dealt with. But because we are psychologically and instinctively inclined to remember negative more than positive, we think they are a much bigger problem than they actually are... and this magnification leads to the impression that it is always getting worse and never being dealt with.

This is not apathy, it is reality and maturity. Recognizing the reality of the situation, and dealing with it in a mature manner is what should be encouraged. Help the victim, help the PROPER AUTHORITY deal with the problem as much as you can. But don't lose your decency in the process.

DragfinJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's perfectly okay to get frustrated. It's not okay to let that frustration lead you to treating others poorly.

Frustration is natural. Being able to DEAL WITH FRUSTRATION without letting it turn you into a jerk is important. IF you're a decent person, you'll recognize the frustration and be able to deal with it in a healthy way. IT is not healthy to mistreat others.

If you see someone committing a crime, you don't follow them home and commit it back to them. You report it to the police and do whatever you can to provide accurate information to help ensure the truth is seen.

Same goes for someone being a jerk. You don't be a jerk right back to them, you report them and provide an accurate and complete account of the situation so that it can be dealt with. And, if needed, provide support to the one who was hurt by it.

The assholes are being dealt with. But because we are psychologically and instinctively inclined to remember negative more than positive, we think they are a much bigger problem than they actually are... and this magnification leads to the impression that it is always getting worse and never being dealt with.

This is not apathy, it is reality and maturity. Recognizing the reality of the situation, and dealing with it in a mature manner is what should be encouraged. Help the victim, help the PROPER AUTHORITY deal with the problem as much as you can. But don't lose your decency in the process.

There is a saying to treat people the way you want to be treated. These people who play the game with no regard to the people they are playing with are more than deserving of the being told the things you say are toxic because they are doing the same damn thing in a different way. There is not enough being done to fix that problem. Yes, people get banned and suspended but nowhere close to the amount there needs to be.

How is this not a double standard?

I noticed you answered everything but the very first and most important question that I asked.

JubbinautJun 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

How is this not a double standard?

A double standard is defined as: "a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups."

Therefore, by definition, holding everyone to the same basic expectations cannot be considered a double standard.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

A double standard is defined as: "a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups."

Therefore, by definition, holding everyone to the same basic expectations cannot be considered a double standard.

Riot is punishing people who say things to people being toxic in their own ways. The only people getting punished are the people saying things. Those people who are being toxic in other ways, IE. purposely going afk, feeding, getting caught out over and over otherwise known as doing stupid things over and over and over again and simply not knowing the basics of the game, are not being punished. Say what you will but these people are just as toxic. That toxic action is not being punished in the same manner, maybe the afk's but they can do better. If Riot wants to make it fair then ban those people to bots for the same amount of games as people who get chat banned. They are quick to chat ban we should be seeing bot bans or something similar for people who want to be toxic in the way they play the game, which in turn cause a lot of the toxicity. By definition that is a double standard.

EleshakaiJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot is punishing people who say things to people being toxic in their own ways. The only people getting punished are the people saying things. Those people who are being toxic in other ways, IE. purposely going afk, feeding, getting caught out over and over otherwise known as doing stupid things over and over and over again and simply not knowing the basics of the game, are not being punished. Say what you will but these people are just as toxic. That toxic action is not being punished in the same manner, maybe the afk's but they can do better. If Riot wants to make it fair then ban those people to bots for the same amount of games as people who get chat banned. They are quick to chat ban we should be seeing bot bans or something similar for people who want to be toxic in the way they play the game, which in turn cause a lot of the toxicity. By definition that is a double standard.

There's nothing toxic about not knowing the game. Nor is there anything toxic about being an idiot. Nor is there anything toxic about playing poorly. Feeders and afks DO get punished. You just want an excuse to treat people poorly. And that's not acceptible.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's nothing toxic about not knowing the game. Nor is there anything toxic about being an idiot. Nor is there anything toxic about playing poorly. Feeders and afks DO get punished. You just want an excuse to treat people poorly. And that's not acceptible.

There is a problem with the people who do it blatantly. It's subjective as is the things that people say to others. You are assuming what is being said is wrong and all toxic when a lot of times because of the current system and how it's set up is making mistakes and people are getting wrongfully chat banned.

You just can't be that naïve to think otherwise. My problem is the people who do the same stupid shit over and over and over. Your belief is that we should not treat someone poorly. How is that person doing stupid things over and over and over not treating me poorly by wasting my time? You say that I should tolerate. Or is that just another one of your double standards of living? If what you believe in is that one sided then there is really nothing more that I can say because you obviously can't look at both sides of things objectively. IT IS THE SAME TOXIC SHIT ON BOTH SIDES IT IS JUST DONE IN A DIFFERENT MANNER. At least I can see both sides. All I ask is that both sides get punished equally.

EleshakaiJun 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is a problem with the people who do it blatantly. It's subjective as is the things that people say to others. You are assuming what is being said is wrong and all toxic when a lot of times because of the current system and how it's set up is making mistakes and people are getting wrongfully chat banned.

You just can't be that naïve to think otherwise. My problem is the people who do the same stupid shit over and over and over. Your belief is that we should not treat someone poorly. How is that person doing stupid things over and over and over not treating me poorly by wasting my time? You say that I should tolerate. Or is that just another one of your double standards of living? If what you believe in is that one sided then there is really nothing more that I can say because you obviously can't look at both sides of things objectively. IT IS THE SAME TOXIC SHIT ON BOTH SIDES IT IS JUST DONE IN A DIFFERENT MANNER. At least I can see both sides. All I ask is that both sides get punished equally.

If people are getting punished for it, it's wrong. The system doesn't juist auto-punish for reports. But if you're saying things that aren't really punishable, you won't get punished.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot is punishing people who say things to people being toxic in their own ways. The only people getting punished are the people saying things.

This isn't true. It's certainly more common for players to be punished for verbal toxicity than for non-verbal, but that's likely only because it's also easier to detect.

There's a whole system in use and being iterated on to detect and punish intentional feeding (which, by the by, is considered to be "extreme toxicity" and worthy of an immediate 2-week ban at the least).

Those people who are being toxic in other ways, IE. purposely going afk, feeding, getting caught out over and over otherwise known as doing stupid things over and over and over again and simply not knowing the basics of the game, are not being punished.

Leaverbuster is a thing. It takes effect pretty damn fast, hitting leavers of all sorts, pretty quickly.

Feeding is only punishable if it's intentional - and I mentioned the Feederbuster system above. It's always been punishable.

Being bad at the game is not toxic - and bears its own consequences in lowered MMR and lost ranks.

Say what you will but these people are just as toxic. That toxic action is not being punished in the same manner, maybe the afk's but they can do better. If Riot wants to make it fair then ban those people to bots for the same amount of games as people who get chat banned. They are quick to chat ban we should be seeing bot bans or something similar for people who want to be toxic in the way they play the game, which in turn cause a lot of the toxicity. By definition that is a double standard.

Except it's not. The standard remains the same, regardless of the person. Even if you were right, that would represent different standards for different behaviors, which is only reasonable - or do you think every real-world crime should bear the same punishment?

Non-verbal toxicity (discounting afks) is seen as generally worse than verbal toxicity. As such, it's more quickly escalated to the 2-week ban level (which is really just a last-chance warning before a permaban). And while it's certainly true that you won't see many people around the boards complaining about it, that's usually because they already know exactly why they received the ban - there's no point to trying to convince people you shouldn't have been banned for intentionally feeding.

Leavers, on the other hand, quickly earn LPQs - they aren't restricted to bots, but instead are restricted from any queues. Period. Which seems more appropriate, to me - if players leaving games ruins those games, the only reasonable approach is to minimize the number of games they have the ability to leave (and thereby ruin).

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This isn't true. It's certainly more common for players to be punished for verbal toxicity than for non-verbal, but that's likely only because it's also easier to detect.

There's a whole system in use and being iterated on to detect and punish intentional feeding (which, by the by, is considered to be "extreme toxicity" and worthy of an immediate 2-week ban at the least).

Leaverbuster is a thing. It takes effect pretty damn fast, hitting leavers of all sorts, pretty quickly.

Feeding is only punishable if it's intentional - and I mentioned the Feederbuster system above. It's always been punishable.

Being bad at the game is not toxic - and bears its own consequences in lowered MMR and lost ranks.

Except it's not. The standard remains the same, regardless of the person. Even if you were right, that would represent different standards for different behaviors, which is only reasonable - or do you think every real-world crime should bear the same punishment?

Non-verbal toxicity (discounting afks) is seen as generally worse than verbal toxicity. As such, it's more quickly escalated to the 2-week ban level (which is really just a last-chance warning before a permaban). And while it's certainly true that you won't see many people around the boards complaining about it, that's usually because they already know exactly why they received the ban - there's no point to trying to convince people you shouldn't have been banned for intentionally feeding.

Leavers, on the other hand, quickly earn LPQs - they aren't restricted to bots, but instead are restricted from any queues. Period. Which seems more appropriate, to me - if players leaving games ruins those games, the only reasonable approach is to minimize the number of games they have the ability to leave (and thereby ruin).

Well I am sorry that you believe this is the case when there is no proof whatsoever given to the public that these things happen. IMO if these things were being handled as you say then we would have a better player base then we do. I am so you are this delusional.

I disagree with you thinking that being bad at something is not toxic. When it affects other human being's then it is. Go play a single person game.

In your mind it's not toxic and I am very glad I don't think like you do. It seems you see League as being very player friendly and in reality it isn't unless you play with friends all the time which in that case you will never experience the same things that solo q does and therefore have no business with an opinion on solo q to begin with.

There is not enough being done to fix the player base on both fronts. Stop being so narrow minded and thinking that it is because I am sure there are many that do not agree with you at all. Show me facts and not your opinion on half the things you say are happening and then maybe we can talk. My facts are that I experience all these things on a daily basis as do many other players.

I am sure some of the players here don't have a leg to stand on but there are those that do. There are fixes but Riot won't do it because in the end it is much easier and more profitable to punish a few and allow the majority to basically get away with whatever they want. Have to keep the money rolling in and the only way to do that is keep your players no matter how horrible of a human being they may be.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well I am sorry that you believe this is the case when there is no proof whatsoever given to the public that these things happen. IMO if these things were being handled as you say then we would have a better player base then we do. I am so you are this delusional.

There's certainly no proof that those sanctions aren't issued. And there's plenty of evidence indicating that they do. Digging through Misc. shows plenty of posts regarding Leaverbuster's LPQs. Reviewing the old TBI Forum shows rather a lot of people complaining about bans they received for various kinds of griefing and non-verbal toxicity.

Riot's acceptance of those things (or lack thereof) hasn't changed significantly. Their approach to them, however, has. If anything, they're more concerned with non-verbal toxicity than ever.

However, you're overlooking a simple fact: MOST of the toxicity - verbal and otherwise - that is demonstrated in games comes from players who are NOT habitually toxic. Rather, it comes from good and neutral players who are frustrated or upset about any of a hundred possible things, and take it out in game - and it happens once in a blue moon. Lyte addresses this phenomenon in this video.

Regarding Feederbuster, I would direct you to this Reddit post, this Tweet, and the Reddit thread sparked by that Tweet. They're developing the system to be able to detect an intentional feeder within two games, and automatically issue bans.

I disagree with you thinking that being bad at something is not toxic. When it affects other human being's then it is. Go play a single person game.

For Riot to consider a behavior genuinely toxic, it must have intent. A bad player isn't intentionally ruining things for others - they simply don't know how to be better than they are.

League of Legends is not a game exclusively for the best-of-the-best. It's for anyone and everyone that's interested, regardless of their specific skill. Attempting to change that is going to do nothing more than kill the game, since Riot's entire business model is premised on having a substantial player-base.

In your mind it's not toxic and I am very glad I don't think like you do. It seems you see League as being very player friendly and in reality it isn't unless you play with friends all the time which in that case you will never experience the same things that solo q does and therefore have no business with an opinion on solo q to begin with.

League itself is pretty player-friendly. The community's pretty decent - it's certainly no worse than most others I've been a part of, and it's better than some.

I've found, though, that most players aren't particularly toxic. I honestly don't remember the last time I saw an actual intentional feeder. I'm not sure I've ever played with a griefer (though in the moment, I have felt pretty certain).

There is not enough being done to fix the player base on both fronts. Stop being so narrow minded and thinking that it is because I am sure there are many that do not agree with you at all. Show me facts and not your opinion on half the things you say are happening and then maybe we can talk. My facts are that I experience all these things on a daily basis as do many other players.

Your personal experience is irrelevant - as is mine. Your experience is based on a sample size of some hundreds, perhaps thousands of games. Riots sample size is at least 2.7 million games per day (based on the 2014 average of 27 million daily players, and assuming each only plays a single match).

That said, I don't disagree that they could do more. I'm absolutely certain they could. So are they, actually. Which is why they're continuing to test, implement and iterate new systems to address various types of toxicity.

I am sure some of the players here don't have a leg to stand on but there are those that do. There are fixes but Riot won't do it because in the end it is much easier and more profitable to punish a few and allow the majority to basically get away with whatever they want. Have to keep the money rolling in and the only way to do that is keep your players no matter how horrible of a human being they may be.

If there's such simple fixes, why not offer proposals rather than simply complain? See what the community thinks of your amazing ideas. See how well they stand up to the scrutiny of the very community you would see them imposed on.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's certainly no proof that those sanctions aren't issued. And there's plenty of evidence indicating that they do. Digging through Misc. shows plenty of posts regarding Leaverbuster's LPQs. Reviewing the old TBI Forum shows rather a lot of people complaining about bans they received for various kinds of griefing and non-verbal toxicity.

Riot's acceptance of those things (or lack thereof) hasn't changed significantly. Their approach to them, however, has. If anything, they're more concerned with non-verbal toxicity than ever.

However, you're overlooking a simple fact: MOST of the toxicity - verbal and otherwise - that is demonstrated in games comes from players who are NOT habitually toxic. Rather, it comes from good and neutral players who are frustrated or upset about any of a hundred possible things, and take it out in game - and it happens once in a blue moon. Lyte addresses this phenomenon in this video.

Regarding Feederbuster, I would direct you to this Reddit post, this Tweet, and the Reddit thread sparked by that Tweet. They're developing the system to be able to detect an intentional feeder within two games, and automatically issue bans.

For Riot to consider a behavior genuinely toxic, it must have intent. A bad player isn't intentionally ruining things for others - they simply don't know how to be better than they are.

League of Legends is not a game exclusively for the best-of-the-best. It's for anyone and everyone that's interested, regardless of their specific skill. Attempting to change that is going to do nothing more than kill the game, since Riot's entire business model is premised on having a substantial player-base.

League itself is pretty player-friendly. The community's pretty decent - it's certainly no worse than most others I've been a part of, and it's better than some.

I've found, though, that most players aren't particularly toxic. I honestly don't remember the last time I saw an actual intentional feeder. I'm not sure I've ever played with a griefer (though in the moment, I have felt pretty certain).

Your personal experience is irrelevant - as is mine. Your experience is based on a sample size of some hundreds, perhaps thousands of games. Riots sample size is at least 2.7 million games per day (based on the 2014 average of 27 million daily players, and assuming each only plays a single match).

That said, I don't disagree that they could do more. I'm absolutely certain they could. So are they, actually. Which is why they're continuing to test, implement and iterate new systems to address various types of toxicity.

If there's such simple fixes, why not offer proposals rather than simply complain? See what the community thinks of your amazing ideas. See how well they stand up to the scrutiny of the very community you would see them imposed on.

What Riot should do is let us police ourselves in an individual way.

Lets say you have 1000 players in your ELO pool that you get matched with for games.

"YOU" get to judge if the 9 players that "YOU" are matched with are worthy enough. What I mean by worthy enough, I mean during "YOUR" game were they toxic? Did they understand the basics of the game? How was their overall play in "YOUR" opinion? Basically were they a good player. If they do not fit "YOUR" criteria of a good player, taking into account everything "YOU" think "YOU" know about the game then "YOU" get the option to report them. This will in turn ban them from "YOUR" ELO matchmaking que for a pre-determined amount of days like 30. "YOU" will not be matched with this player again for that time period.

In time what I think this process will do is weed out the assholes or those who are too lazy to make an effort to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. If these players continue to be toxic or play the way they play that gets them reported and banned from ELO ques, then eventually this player will have to quit League, play solo bots or what we all want, stop being lazy and learn to play the game how it's meant to be played because eventually they won't have anyone to play with. By giving them a 30 day ban from an individual que it gives them plenty of chances to fix their behavior or it will result in what I just said.

Now for those of you who think this system could be abused. Well if "YOU" want to report just to report then eventually "YOU" won't have anyone to play with because "YOU" will have banned everyone "YOU" could be playing with. In other words, stupid reports will hurt the person doing the reporting. This would work both ways in fixing the cancer players and fixing the stupid reports.

This is just an idea that came to mind. This or a variation of this could work to fix this awful community and make League a fun place to be again.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What Riot should do is let us police ourselves in an individual way.

Lets say you have 1000 players in your ELO pool that you get matched with for games.

That's not really how the matchmaking system works. There's only one pool of players. When selecting players to match, it attempts to find players who are reasonably close in MMR, searching in what might be visualized as concentric circles.

But for the sake of argument, we can work with your assumption.

"YOU" get to judge if the 9 players that "YOU" are matched with are worthy enough. What I mean by worthy enough, I mean during "YOUR" game were they toxic? Did they understand the basics of the game? How was their overall play in "YOUR" opinion? Basically were they a good player. If they do not fit "YOUR" criteria of a good player, taking into account everything "YOU" think "YOU" know about the game then "YOU" get the option to report them. This will in turn ban them from "YOUR" ELO matchmaking que for a pre-determined amount of days like 30. "YOU" will not be matched with this player again for that time period.

So... basically, you get to fix your games? And you don't see how this could be problematic when attempting to ensure fair Rankings?

In time what I think this process will do is weed out the assholes or those who are too lazy to make an effort to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. If these players continue to be toxic or play the way they play that gets them reported and banned from ELO ques, then eventually this player will have to quit League, play solo bots or what we all want, stop being lazy and learn to play the game how it's meant to be played because eventually they won't have anyone to play with. By giving them a 30 day ban from an individual que it gives them plenty of chances to fix their behavior or it will result in what I just said.

The problem here is simple: Who determines "how it's meant to be played?" It's certainly not Riot - they've emphatically stated repeatedly that they won't enforce the meta.

Now for those of you who think this system could be abused. Well if "YOU" want to report just to report then eventually "YOU" won't have anyone to play with because "YOU" will have banned everyone "YOU" could be playing with. In other words, stupid reports will hurt the person doing the reporting. This would work both ways in fixing the cancer players and fixing the stupid reports.

So what you're saying is that players being entirely incapable of playing due to a combination of banning players worse than them and being banned by players better than them isn't a problem case?

This is just an idea that came to mind. This or a variation of this could work to fix this awful community and make League a fun place to be again.

It might "fix" this "awful" community. If so, it would be at the cost of the game itself - between the ability to control rankings by banning players in the best case, and the vast majority of the community being unable to play at all in the worst case, Riot would find themselves hemorrhaging players.

And that says nothing about players attempting new or innovative builds/picks/lanes.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's not really how the matchmaking system works. There's only one pool of players. When selecting players to match, it attempts to find players who are reasonably close in MMR, searching in what might be visualized as concentric circles.

But for the sake of argument, we can work with your assumption.

So... basically, you get to fix your games? And you don't see how this could be problematic when attempting to ensure fair Rankings?

The problem here is simple: Who determines "how it's meant to be played?" It's certainly not Riot - they've emphatically stated repeatedly that they won't enforce the meta.

So what you're saying is that players being entirely incapable of playing due to a combination of banning players worse than them and being banned by players better than them isn't a problem case?

It might "fix" this "awful" community. If so, it would be at the cost of the game itself - between the ability to control rankings by banning players in the best case, and the vast majority of the community being unable to play at all in the worst case, Riot would find themselves hemorrhaging players.

And that says nothing about players attempting new or innovative builds/picks/lanes.

It would not involve the current system at all. This would be new and would work.

Poor reporting would only hurt the player doing the reporting. Good reporting would get rid of the idiots.

You are correct in saying it would be at the cost of the game itself though because Riot would lose tons of money because the idiots wouldn't be able to get off screwing with people anymore. They would have to quit playing or fix themselves.

Thanks for playing though. My suspicions about you are now satisfied. You and people like you are the reason we have problems that are never solved because you try to sell something else in it's place instead of talking through the problem that does exist but not acknowledged by your kind. As far as I am concerned you don't exist to me anymore. I only waste so much time with useless people.

JubbinautJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It would not involve the current system at all. This would be new and would work.

So you're proposing a complete rewrite of the entire matchmaking system? That's... ambitious to say the least.

Poor reporting would only hurt the player doing the reporting. Good reporting would get rid of the idiots.

You're looking at how ONE person's reporting would affect things. You're neglecting how OTHER people's reports would affect them.

Without something in place to prevent players from banning out people they think are "worse" than them, it's almost an inevitability that only the best players would ever actually get to join matches. Because all the Silver players would ban all the Bronzes (and other Silvers they think suck). And all the Golds would ban all the Silvers (and other Golds they think suck). And so on and so on and so on.

You are correct in saying it would be at the cost of the game itself though because Riot would lose tons of money because the idiots wouldn't be able to get off screwing with people anymore. They would have to quit playing or fix themselves.

You seem to have a massively inflated idea of just how many toxic players there are. Perhaps you should look over some of those links I offered you earlier. The video, in particular, has a lot of neat information about that.

Thanks for playing though. My suspicions about you are now satisfied. You and people like you are the reason we have problems that are never solved because you try to sell something else in it's place instead of talking through the problem that does exist but not acknowledged by your kind. As far as I am concerned you don't exist to me anymore. I only waste so much time with useless people.

This is kind of a funny statement. I spend all of my time on these boards (and on the old Forums) discussing what works and doesn't work from the current systems, what alternatives might be workable, and what impact those alternatives may have.

I've seen some fantastic ideas - some of which are being developed for implementation right now. I've seen some terrible ideas. I've seen this one (or some variant of it) about a hundred times. Basic scrutiny reveals huge problems that no one seems willing to actually address.

EleshakaiJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is a saying to treat people the way you want to be treated. These people who play the game with no regard to the people they are playing with are more than deserving of the being told the things you say are toxic because they are doing the same damn thing in a different way. There is not enough being done to fix that problem. Yes, people get banned and suspended but nowhere close to the amount there needs to be.

How is this not a double standard?

I noticed you answered everything but the very first and most important question that I asked.

There is no double standard. It is NEVER OKAY TO TREAT OTHERS POORLY. Ever. In any circumstance.

If someone treats you poorly, that's not a carte blanche to go and do whatever you want to them.

Be a respectable person. Show some self respect. If you let yourself treat others like crap just 'cause they did something bad to you, then you're no better than they are. And thus you deserve to be punished as much as they do. To avoid the double standard you're trying to claim I support.

The only possible double standard in this is the one you're trying to push. If it's NOT okay for them to treat you like crap, why is it okay for you to treat THEM like crap? That's a real double standard.

They deserve to be punished. And they ARE getting punished. However, people like you who respond in kind are MAKING THE PROBLEM WORSE THAN IT NEEDS TO BE. You are turning a campfire into raging inferno by spreading it out from the easily contained firepit. It's easy to ignore one person... it gets much harder to not respond when you see someone reacting to it. There is no reason to let them get to you. Just ignore them, report them and let them get themselves banned. Because if this is a habitual thing, they will be. Don't sully your own decency in the process. If everyone did this, toxicity wouldn't be a problem.

DragfinJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is no double standard. It is NEVER OKAY TO TREAT OTHERS POORLY. Ever. In any circumstance.

If someone treats you poorly, that's not a carte blanche to go and do whatever you want to them.

Be a respectable person. Show some self respect. If you let yourself treat others like crap just 'cause they did something bad to you, then you're no better than they are. And thus you deserve to be punished as much as they do. To avoid the double standard you're trying to claim I support.

The only possible double standard in this is the one you're trying to push. If it's NOT okay for them to treat you like crap, why is it okay for you to treat THEM like crap? That's a real double standard.

They deserve to be punished. And they ARE getting punished. However, people like you who respond in kind are MAKING THE PROBLEM WORSE THAN IT NEEDS TO BE. You are turning a campfire into raging inferno by spreading it out from the easily contained firepit. It's easy to ignore one person... it gets much harder to not respond when you see someone reacting to it. There is no reason to let them get to you. Just ignore them, report them and let them get themselves banned. Because if this is a habitual thing, they will be. Don't sully your own decency in the process. If everyone did this, toxicity wouldn't be a problem.

If saying something like please do not overextend anymore is toxic then I'm wrong. I got reported for that. If saying can you please stop taking my jungle is toxic then I'm wrong. I got reported for that. You are looking at the extreme like people telling others to die. People are getting chat banned for what seems like everything if I am getting banned for saying things like I said. It's not fair.

Yes, people should get some type of punishment for not taking the time to learn how to play the game. If it was a single player game I would have no problem. It's not, there are real human beings with real lives and with real time constraints. Because of that there should be punishments for people who play the game in a manner that wastes other peoples time. It should be just as frequent and talked about as these chat bans are. I am sorry you disagree with that but I guess we will have to agree to disagree and people like that can keep wasting mine and everyone else's time by never improving with zero consequences. It's not fair and I am going to continue to say it's not fair. There are too many narrow minds in leadership today and a huge reason why the world is becoming a cesspool.

Say what you will and regardless if anyone should or should not be saying anything to "turn a campfire into a raging inferno" but there are a lot of times a cause for that, it's human nature in a competitive environment, and it's not being properly addressed and it has to do with people who do nothing to improve their play.

The LexerJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted} assholes want to be dicks?

Woah, logic

MacDthreeJun 24, 20152 votes

you got downvoted and people are raging at you - but I wanted to subject myself to the same torture to tell you that I agree.
The people allow themselves to flame other people or say rude things to people they don't know just because a video game made you mad...pathetic to me.
If people know they can't handle trolls and hateful people without turning into that same rude person they hate, I think they need to start looking into adding people to their friends list and only playing with people they know wont do that.

EleshakaiJun 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

you got downvoted and people are raging at you - but I wanted to subject myself to the same torture to tell you that I agree.
The people allow themselves to flame other people or say rude things to people they don't know just because a video game made you mad...pathetic to me.
If people know they can't handle trolls and hateful people without turning into that same rude person they hate, I think they need to start looking into adding people to their friends list and only playing with people they know wont do that.

I expected to be downvoted. I'm telling people to take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody EVER wants to be told that.

Sir YamazukiJun 24, 20154 votes

The game doesn't "encourage" anything, asking to change the game's mechanics will no longer make it LoL. Also, people rage no matter what type of game it is. Even PvE oriented games contain both trolls and the angry type of people. Getting frustrated and responding negatively has nothing to do with games and all to do with how humans are. So, of course punishing negative behavior while trying to encourage positive ones is the right thing to do. If you do not want to interact with humans, then you, and others who think the same way, need to stick to single player games; because no matter how much Riot changes the game, there will still be raging.

NightAdderJun 24, 20153 votes

Or players need to just chill out.

I AM VBADJun 24, 20159 votes

yeah just chill out.

who cares if some 12 year old troll has the power to make you watch him run down mid and intentionally feed all game. if you leave you get leaverbuster penalties, so just chill out. its kind of funny right? he is stealing the little precious free time you have with this garbage and now your team wont surrender. looks like you wont be able to get in a another game tonight. but don't say anything mean to him. it might hurt his feelings.

oh look now the other team isn't trying to end. they are just dancing around in mid and slaughtering you any time you go outside your inner turrets. just chill out though - this is a good way to spend your day. your team still wont surrender but eventually they will get bored of it and finish the game. don't say anything rude to anyone, that would be bannable. just sit back and relax. good times.

ChronyJun 24, 20153 votes

I honestly want to know how often you think those scenarios happen. Every game? Is it every game that you have a troll? Is it every game that the winning team dances and drags it out to your or their misery? Because honestly I've been in all brackets from bronze to plat and I can say that maybe 1 in at most 20 games or more is like that and from your tone and attitude I'm willing to bet you talk shit and act like a douche to anyone who doesn't live up to your expectations so you are probly the troll in all your games or the cause of it. Many people don't realize that this is a team game and you have to interact with other living breathing people and if you are condescending or a douche...just like in real life they will return the favor...no matter what riot does this will not change. What op an you are complaining about is human nature.

So yes...you probly really just need to take a deep breathe an chill out

KazaashiJun 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I honestly want to know how often you think those scenarios happen. Every game? Is it every game that you have a troll? Is it every game that the winning team dances and drags it out to your or their misery? Because honestly I've been in all brackets from bronze to plat and I can say that maybe 1 in at most 20 games or more is like that and from your tone and attitude I'm willing to bet you talk shit and act like a douche to anyone who doesn't live up to your expectations so you are probly the troll in all your games or the cause of it. Many people don't realize that this is a team game and you have to interact with other living breathing people and if you are condescending or a douche...just like in real life they will return the favor...no matter what riot does this will not change. What op an you are complaining about is human nature.

So yes...you probly really just need to take a deep breathe an chill out

The only reason the OP see's it in every game is that he brings it upon himself with his attitude. If you go into a game expecting people to feed, then you will see their mistakes as feeding and trolling. This causes you to Tilt because you feel threatened, either by the mistakes of your teammate or the fear of LP loss.

I AM VBADJun 24, 20151 votes

a troll? about 1 game in 4. are you saying it is not frustrating to play a ranked game with a troll on your team?

your guesses about me are not even close. I NEVER say anything to my teammates about their mistakes.

your negative thoughts about me show me that YOU are probably a douche that rages at your team and a troll as well. that is why you expect this behavior from others. people like you are why this community sucks.

ChronyJun 24, 20151 votes

Hahaha nice try bro but if you saw where I posted that I rarely see "real" trolls, fact that my advice is to chill out, and the fact that I keep climbing in ranked you could deduce that I am in fact the one most likely to be calming down and helping out the people on tilt...that's how you deal with the 1 in 4 "trolls" you get in your games dude...you talk to them like they are a Real person that is probly frustrated from dealing with a person like you in their previous game and help them out.

Also some words of advice....People on tilt are NOT Trolls! Even if you think they are....people on tilt will be pushed over the edge by "edgy" comments.

So I'll say it once again...you are most likely the cause and you should chill out and play it like team game and not some job where you have to take care of 3 autistic children being antagonized by an evil clown.

OnegarionJun 25, 20151 votes

I hate doing it, but that I AM VBAD is a bronze player. With the attitudes in bronze and how people view it he is probably calling players who are actually bad as trolls. Its the dumbest thing ever. Bronze is the pit of the worst players in the game and so many players I see complain about this topic are low elo where players don't know anything about this game. THey don't know how to rotate, farm, play passive, play for objectives, make team comps, play against counters, etc. There are so many things players at that elo don't know and yet everyone wants to complain about "bad" teammates when everyone is bad.

If bronze players would just play the game and focus on themselves I bet more of them would either get out or NA's bronze league will be closer in skill to others.

KazaashiJun 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I AM VBAD,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=AzMszElT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-24T05:09:02.576+0000)

yeah just chill out.

who cares if some 12 year old troll has the power to make you watch him run down mid and intentionally feed all game. if you leave you get leaverbuster penalties, so just chill out. its kind of funny right? he is stealing the little precious free time you have with this garbage and now your team wont surrender. looks like you wont be able to get in a another game tonight. but don't say anything mean to him. it might hurt his feelings.

Last game that I had this happen we ended up winning, cause the other team was too focused on the feeder. We just created split pressure where the feeder wasn't going and ended up pushing for a win. The only other time I had this happen, was back in season 3 when I was climbing from 700 Elo. However, I was able to coordinate my team to go where the feeder wasn't and we won the game.

If you give up, it is always a loss. If you try, it only might be a loss.

Supp HeroJun 24, 20153 votes

This whole issue of feeders would be nonexistent if matchmaking took individual skill into account. Every time I see a real 'feeder' sometimes I'll look at their match history and see every game they went like 1/12/1 80 cs or some crap in EVERY GAME. Obviously matchmaking is not adjusting for this factor or they'd be matched against less skilled players, but the way Elo/MMR is calculated it takes far too long for it to adjust a player to where they should be - until then you get 10-50 games where it's a free for all of players with random skill and the noobs against good players getting destroyed.

Arch Mage MagnusJun 25, 20153 votes

How does 1 shit player beat 4 good ones?

He joins your team.

Karn BishopJun 25, 20152 votes

I've been with this game for years and i get the feeling that the game is on the starting point to its eventual death, I used to enjoy games but the amount of negative players and people who just do not connect have been rapidly increasing as of late to the point where a match is not fun, more to the point 30 min games used to be the norm and now its 1 hr with a toxic group raging at each other.