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[Debate] What defines toxicity?

Sir ArmaMalum··5 votes·1,334 views

This may seem like an obvious thing. Toxic is...just.....toxic, right? Well that's what we're here for, to hear your definition of what toxicity is.

To touch on the more common stances, Toxic Behavior is broadly defined as behavior that tales away from the positive experience of the Toxic player and everyone around him/her. This can be anywhere from cursing to threats to rage-quitting depending on the person and the witnesses, and is considered by the vast majority of the playerbase as something the game would be infinitely better with significantly less of. I think we can all agree there.

But what makes a player cross that line from simply angry or frustrated to toxic? What switches on that red light that says "I'm reporting them after this game because of their behavior"? What does it take for you to label another player as toxic?

#####I fully expect debates here fellas, replies to replies and differing opinions. And I in fact encourage that here, but there are a few ground rules to lay down to make sure this stays as a [Debate] and not a [I'm right, you're wrong] post.

  • Don't dissmis anyone's opinions, opinions are never wrong, you just disagree with them.
  • You are free to disagree with someone always, but always do your best to explain why.
  • Don't get emotional, hopefully we're all adults here, keep it in 'debate' mode
  • Feel free to disagree with my OP as well! I love feedback, but this is a debate thread, I'll respond!
  • There is a comment reply cap! You only have a few tries to rebuttle and argue a point, so make them count!

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27 Comments

burdluver904 votes

I think the thing that gets me the most is people who hold your game hostage.

They threaten to feed or afk. They say "If you don't gank, I'm going to feed" (but with less grammar)

They are the "mid or feed" in champion select.

A secondary group of them are the rage quitters - Top lane fed, gg, I'm afk. They aren't threatening, but they gave up.

You can't play with people like this. I can easily play with someone who rages, says "EZ" at the end of a game, curses, etc. It's not fun, I don't like it. But at the end of the day, we can cooperate. The rager might have legitimate complaints and is just bad at expressing them. The "gg, ez, nubs" guy is just cocky - sure it's unsportsmanlike, but he isn't creating an environment that makes me just not want to play.

However, spending the entire game, as a support, begging my ADC not to afk (mid DCed and the jungler wasn't ganking us (because he was holding mid) and then when mid got back he was an asshole) We won, he didn't afk, but that game sucked.

Every time I could, I was trying to reassure him that we could win, asking him to please keep playing and not worry what others were saying/doing. We would have lost that game without him and it just pissed me off that I had to sit there and beg him to act like a well-adjusted human being to win my game.

That to me, is so much worse than someone just being a jerk. At least there I can just mute and keep playing. With these sorts of people though, you have to do what they want, you have to listen to them, you can't just ignore it. Otherwise you lose.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

So, to summarize, you're saying the line between 'toxic' and 'bearable' lies in the direct effect it has on your team's capacity to play (afk, feed, etc.)? I can see that, especially with the presence of the mute button. Can you think of any reasons you would label someone's behavior as 'toxic' but they still played well?

burdluver903 votes

I think when it gets to the point some people have mentioned of "I hope you get cancer" "I hope your parents die" "Do the world a favor and commit suicide" type talk, that is beyond a doubt toxic.

That is beyond what I consider "rage" though, in my mind. My picture of the rager is the person that is trying too hard, thinks they are way better than they really are and blames everyone else on their team. We've all been there where we've had a decent game and won our lane but top fed riven and now she is 7-0 with three times your top's farm and then just face-rolls your team. It sucks, it pisses you off. A lot of us aren't so much more skilled than our placement to be able to carry a team against something like that. So, even if you do well, your team playing stupidly can cost you a lot of games. Likewise you have the suicidal initiation, the guy who never wards, the one who has a terrible season 2 build, the one who afks to go eat dinner for 15 minutes. We have all been there and it can upset you. The difference between a well-adjusted player and a rager is how they handle it.

People should learn that yelling at someone and saying "OMG stop feeding" doesn't help anything, but hey, the world isn't perfect. I can easily put up with someone saying "wow, this X lane is so bad" "omg stupid yi building AP" "idiot X" (after someone does something arguably idiotic). None of that is good behavior and I don't condone it, but hey, sometimes your teammates act like idiots. Not everyone is as capable of just brushing it off. Should we label people as toxic and demand they be removed from our community because they lack people skills?

Toxic, on the other hand, is the type of person that is just intentionally ruining the game and your experience with it. There is no talking to them, they can't be reasoned with. A rager can be calmed down. A lot of time if you say something like "I'm sorry I'm not doing well, can you give me some build advice?" or "Yeah, that was a stupid initiation, can you ping next time you want me to go in?", they immediately calm down and start to cooperate with you. The toxic player that is telling you to go uninstall and die will never try to work with you. They don't think of you as a person. There is no justification to their anger. If you try to be nice and apologize, they will just be worse. "I'm not going to tell you what to build, go uninstall if you don't know how to build your character" "just f**king afk, we'll do better without you" type thing.

So in the case of someone legitimately verbally abusing another player - they can play well, even carry the game and I would still see them as toxic.

On reddit there was a post recently about reporting people for saying "gg easy" after a game. Apparently the majority think that is being toxic and it's completely report worthy. I can't agree.

If someone saying easy after a game you lost upsets you in anyway beyond making you think "wow, that guy is a jerk" - then you are being way too sensitive. It's the internet. People are jerks. A ton of people out there lack basic social skills and have no real life friends because of it. They also tend to dwell on the internet. It is some stupid kid's attempt to make himself feel better about his life. Just move on. - It's NOT toxic. It's just stupid. The same goes for someone tell you that you're bad (guess what, you might actually be playing poorly. They have no other way to know) or for someone saying you are (acting) stupid - (running in 1v5 is stupid. I'm sorry) If someone is criticizing you (even if it's not candy coated), you can actually really learn from that. Someone just being a jerk and saying "noobs" or "easy" is just childish, ignore it. Yeah, it'd be great if everyone was nice. Report them if you want. The most punishment I think they should get is a warning/chat ban.

Save permabans for people who are truly ruining the game.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I was hoping someone would bring up sensitivity! =)

Your criteria for the difference of toxic and simply frustrated is a very well put argument, and one that I wish more people took to heart. As you said, I'm not approving of overly-competitive and rude comments, but it's just as much the responsibility of the community as a whole to have a somewhat thick skin because of the nature of a competitive (I can say 'sport' now, but it's still weird :P) game like League. It's much easier to oust truly Toxic Behavior when it is no longer associated with frustration and anger that (in my experience) every average league player ends up having at least once. Most of the time, these people happen to be having a bad game/day and don't engage in that behavior often.

or for someone saying you are (acting) stupid - (running in 1v5 is stupid. I'm sorry) If someone is criticizing you (even if it's not candy coated), you can actually really learn from that. Someone just being a jerk and saying "noobs" or "easy" is just childish, ignore it. Yeah, it'd be great if everyone was nice. Report them if you want. The most punishment I think they should get is a warning/chat ban.

I think this is well said, and while not the most popular opinion, I 100% agree with the idea of 'be ready to take criticism, even if it's not worded in the best way'. It is, however a fine line that is hard to walk for a lot of people. If someone comes in with "stop getting caught noob!" for example, the "stop getting caught" is a legitimate observation that I personally would take as advice and try to stop, but the added "noob" was unnecessary and tends to undermine the value of what was said before. Now this can be tackled in two ways, if not both. The receiving end can be the better person and take the criticism and try their best with the new info, or the giver can simply remove the "noob", "idiot", "stupid", etc. to increase the chances someone actually listens to what they have to say. But as you said, this being the internet and all, a thick skin and mental chat filter are few and far between. But, I'm getting way too far into solutions and that's for next week, my bad.

Thank you for coming in and defining 'toxic' in a less popular opinion. I respect your view and completely agree with it. Obviously there are comments like your first few lines that are clearly toxic, but it's very important to outline what isn't toxic behavior, but isn't positive either. This way we can keep our own personal views from becoming too biased against an inevitable trait of a competitive game. Good on you good sir.

burdluver901 votes

Thank you for taking the time to read my long windedness and repsonding. It's nice to hear that some people agree or at least understand my less popular point of view (I come from reddit where I just get downvoted into oblivion).

I do have one little thing to point out though:

I'm a ma'am :)

As far as solutions go - I know that's for next week, but I think a Riot PSA post about how they define toxicity and what sort of punishments they will give to players for different behaviors could help. I think right now people either think that reporting does nothing or that reporting guarentees a ban.

If Riot would come out and say "We WILL ban you for making threats or wishing ill on other people, however you will NOT be banned for saying noob" we might see a decrease in the actual toxic behavior (at a cost of an increase in the negative behavior, since some people may start doing it just because they know they won't get banned). I think Riot may not want to announce that they won't ban someone for X behavior, though I think it could really help the community understand what they need to learn how to deal with as a part of life and the internet and how that is different than something that is 100% unacceptable.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Ah my deepest apologies madame, classic internet "everything is a dude or an NSA agent" mentality there. lol =)

I don't explicitly know everything on the nuances of reporting and definition of toxicity that Riot takes, but I have run across a Red Post or two on statistics (mainly from Lyte) about behavior and general toxicity. I was planning on doing more digging and try to find other sources as well to better outline next week's [Debate], the last two have been a bit rushed due to other posts I've tackled, but having citation and background info was the plan from the start.

However, short of getting a Rioter in here and them giving their own personal opinion I doubt we could get a straight 'line to cross' for Riot as a whole. Although you have made me want to post an @Riot about this question to try to get a Red or two to participate in this and possibly answer a few of your questions as well as possibly clarifying anyone else's assumptions in here...that would be nice.

I think we could get a "this is unacceptable" line though, and letting people extrapolate and imply from there....we'll see. I'll start working on that @Riot now today, hopefully I'll have it ready to go tonight, if not then tomm. Keep an eye out for it! :)

Zalkreai2 votes

You are 100% correct, holding a game hostage and overall intentionally ruining a game is toxic. I just don't see as much of it anymore because I don't go into a game anymore unless I'm in a full 5s team with my TS group (or at least 3) or in an aram. I forgot what had kind of forced me out of soloing and that's exactly the behavior you describe.

The "gg easy" thing just gets to me, I guess you can call that sensitive, and I don't report for it by any means (unless that player was a jerk the whole game). I suppose the "toxic" part of that is just the attitude behind it, not being a good sport and all. Though I do strongly believe that a lot of chat related rage is toxic. I don't like muting people because they may actually need to communicate something at some point and you won't know what's going on. Let's face it, if someone is rude or a jerk in chat all game, even if they're playing well, it does put a damper on the game for you or anyone else. At this point anything that takes the fun out of a game can be described as toxic.

Personally I don't really like the whole "toxic" term, it has very loose definitions (hence this debate) and needs to be narrowed down. One aspect of it is the rage part that I pointed out, another is the active game disrupting behavior that you describe.

I wonder if we should use terms like passive toxicity (for rage and chat related nonsense) and active toxicity for in game behavior?

burdluver903 votes

I think you bring up a good idea about separating out terms.

I guess I see toxic as being something that poisons the game and community. Something truly terrible. "GG EZ" isn't terrible, but it's by no means something good.

If we used different terms for different actions we wouldn't have the whole everything is toxic problem that we have right now. Someone said noob - Toxic. Someone afked because of lag - Toxic. Someone said my build was stupid - Toxic. Someone used a naughty word - Toxic.

This would require action on Riot's side, but if they could define some of these behaviors and use different terms for them, I think the community would be better able to deal with them. I just don't see someone being a jerk as on the same level as someone threatening another person, or intentionally ruining a game, or harrassing someone after the game is over.

A proposal:

Rager: Someone who yells at teammates for mistakes/disconnection/build/etc. This person blames others and makes people feel bad and harms the overall atmosphere of the game. They, however, do not quit, threaten to quit, make personal insults/threats or harass someone after a game is done. (the capslock OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING STOP FEEDING DONT TAKE MY CS, KS NOOB SUPPORT TOOK KILL guy - he is raging about the game and how people are playing - not personally attacking people)

Unsportsmanlike Player: Someone who gloats, blames his/her team for a loss, tries to take away the sense of victory, or insults the skill of his opponents. (this is the gg, ez guy, the one who says "bg, noob team", the one who writes in all chat "you only won bc top fed", etc.)

Bully: This is not necessarily a rager. This is the guy that tells others to uninstall, to go die, follows them around and tries to mess up their game, tells the enemy team "X is at red buff". This person has a problem with another player(s) on his/her team and is actively trying to make that person's life worse. This sort of behavior may extend after the game is over.

Quitter: This person gives up, feeds intentionally, afks after a failed surrender vote or just trolls because s/he doesn't believe the game can be won. This person refuses to try with their team and essentially makes the game 4v5, if not 4v6.

Terrorist(though this term may not be the best): This person is a bit of all of the above. They will force you to do what they want by holding your win hostage. If you don't gank their lane, they will feed. If you don't stop feeding, they will afk. If you don't give them blue buff, they will report you. This person is trying to coerce you into doing whatever they say and they know you have to listen or you will lose. This sort of behavior often brings out some of the above in other players as well. People will rage at them, or quit out of spite.

burdluver901 votes

new post because I hit my limit

Verbal abusers:

The Unsportsmanlike player has no effect on the game, because it usually comes out after the game is over when it is nearly over. It can however, put people on tilt. This sort of behavior deserves a warning or chat ban.

The rager can upset his/her teammates and cause them to play worse. At the very least s/he doesn't help anything. Against people like this there is always the mute button. Chat bans would be appropriate, and if it doesn't stop, temporary bans.

The Bully is the worst of the three and should be dealt with harshly. Depending on the severity of the offense, anything from a temporary ban to a permanent ban.

Other abusers:

The Quitter can cost you the game. I don't have statistics (nor could anyone, I think) on how many games were actually lost because of someone like this. Many were probably lost to start with. However, we enter every game trying to win and having someone who doesn't share that sentiment makes the whole thing feel worthless. The severity of the punishment should depend on what type of game it's in. No one should afk or feed intentionally in a ranked game. That should get at the least a ban from ranked play. It is bad in normals as well and should cause anywhere from a warning to a permaban - depending on how often they do it. This should be a function of leaves/games in my opinion. More than a 2% leave rate should get you a warning. If that hits 10% I think a permaban is in order. Of course, leniency for the current attacks and other connectivity issues that aren't the player's fault.

The terrorist is harder to deal with because they may not cost you the game at all. In fact, I've won many games with people like this on my team. It can start in champion select without any record of it. Since they are looking for attention, if they get it, they are happy. If they don't they become one of the other types of toxic players, and will get dealt with accordingly. I think this should be dealt with on the level of a rager for normal games and a quitter for ranked games. It's not nearly as bad as bullying is, but can affect people very strongly - especially in ranked play. Since other bad behavior feeds off it, it is important to stop it early. However, since it doesn't have the same obvious effects, it is hard to argue that someone should get permabanned for only saying "i'm going to feed".

All of these behaviors are toxic in the sense that they poison the community. Some are worse than others. Unsportsmanlike behavior breeds more unsportsmanlike behavior. Rage turns into bullying and both of those can lead to people raging back or quitting. Quitting causes players to be unsportsmanlike, because they don't consider the game fair. People threatening to quit or feed puts everyone in a bad mood and can start the whole cycle as well.

It is important to differentiate them though, so we aren't using the same phrase to refer to someone who just needs to lighten up as someone who attacks other people.

Zalkreai1 votes

Oh wow, you really thought that through, and having different labels would be a lot clearer. (Have to admit I giggled a little a terrorist, that may be a bit extreme xD but I see what you were going for).

Anyway, if Riot would use more exact definitions for each behavior, even in the after game report area (honestly some of the categories don't exactly fit... unskilled? really?) there'd be a lot less confusion as to what X behavior actually was.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Separating toxicity into catagories was actually something I was planning to do for next week's debate post because how to combat negative behavior depends on the steroetypical 'catagory' of behavior you're dealing with. I probably won't use these exact categories but you've hit some of the major players I wanted to address. Like 'unsportsmanlike', 'bully', and 'rage', I'm glad you guys have beaten me there already! =)

Zalkreai2 votes

Rage.

Simply put, rage is toxic. It ruins games for everyone, including the rager, and it escalates problems instead of de-escalating. Bad games happen... for everyone, that doesn't give you any right to get angry at any one for any reason. At least not in chat. Rage out loud to yourself all you want where no one can hear you, but for goodness sakes don't start yelling "OMG NOOB TEAM GG" every time someone dies... it's not going to help.

Also typing at the end of games "NOOBS EZ" or something along those lines just puts a dark taint on what otherwise might have actually been a really good game.

Example: REALLY good game, we lost but for 72+ minutes we hacked it out back and forth with the other team. Nice ping pong action, good exchanges, even some positive chat in between teams. At the end of the game what happens? Some grumbling name here types in all chat "NOOBS 2 EZ" Really ? REALLY??? After that game, that's what you post? Grrr game insta-tainted.

As a support main I can say I have been raged at for everything under the sun (we just don't get any breaks *sigh) and I'm pretty used to it. Yep I'm used to being yelled at. Now what does that say about the community? It's wrong for people to be used to getting raged at... and yet it's still frustrating and degrading every time it happens.

I don't care if you feed (if it's not on purpose) I don't care if you DC (again if it's not on purpose... Rage quit, need I say more?) I don't even care if we lose because of the above events.

Just don't yell at me. (Constructive, positive criticism is okay tho) :)

SirTezla2 votes

Not ALL rage really taints the whole game, some rage is just to let off steam, and I have been in a game where there was a ADC who I guess was having a bad day and let off some steam on us, and later in the game apologized for his actions. Sometimes you have to remember that the people in the game ARE real people and always have the possibility to have had a bad day, and just messed up in the people he's blowing off steam to. Other then that, this wall of words is completely correct, and I agree with.

Zalkreai1 votes

You make a good point, I meant to add in a bit about people kind of raging at themselves. I don't mind people who are having a bad day saying stuff at themselves or no one in particular, it's when it gets personal that it becomes a problem. Like "You suck" or "GG Noob" or something along those lines.

People have bad days, that's okay, just don't take it out on others, or like you said, apologize for it and admit that you were in the wrong. "I'm sorry guys I'm just having a bad day, I shouldn't have been like that" rights a lot of wrongs really quickly.

SirTezla1 votes

Sadly, I have done this before and I felt bad about it. I was playing mid lane LeBlanc and there was a top lane Tryndamere and I was making bad moves and I didn't realize it at the time. He was trying to help me fix the mistakes but I ignored him and he started ignoring me. I raged because I was having a bad day, and I apologized and now we're online friends.

Zalkreai1 votes

I see scenarios like that very often, player 1 is trying but keeps making bad plays, player 2 tries to help but comes off as rude, player 1 gets mad-> player 2 gets mad. It can be a vicious cycle. It's always an apology that makes things better, and it shows maturity. Even if the other player is still mad, at least you tried to make ammends :)

BTW kudos for doing the right thing and earning a friend ^^

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I think the best way to describe what you mean is 'malicious rage' instead of 'simple rage'. I can safely say I am an offender of 'simple rage' quite often, but I never let it get to my keyboard and I get over it within seconds, but it's there nonetheless. 'Malicious rage' however, involves going out of your way to put down others while you're angry, and let's face it, that's never productive. XD

Zalkreai1 votes

Perfect clarification, thank you :) That is exactly what I meant.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Now I personally completely agree with you that explicit and displayed rage is toxic behavior, but to play devil's advocate, what about other 'candidates' for toxic behavior that does not involve anger. Like trolling for example. It incites rage sure, but would you consider the troll more toxic or the people raging due to the troll's behavior more toxic?

Zalkreai1 votes

Trolling for me is a more case-by-case problem, if it's outright deliberate feeding then that is by no means okay. If the game is going badly and you know you're going to lose so you just start going ham and being silly, then that may be okay, even fun sometimes if your team joins you (touchdowns anyone?).

Sometimes this is very frustrating for the team you're on though, surrender vote fails for example. Player 1 starts surrender, team thinks they can pull through and votes no, player 1 gets angry that his time is being "wasted" and begins to feed or is the only one derping around, then it's a problem. This is especially true if the team legitimately thinks that they had a chance and now all of a sudden they have a troll because Player 1 didn't get his way.

Edit: Realized I only answered half of your question ^^;

If the team that the afore mentioned Player 1 is on then starts raging, it can throw the game entirely. I don't think it's right for a team that has a troll in it to start raging at/harassing the troll because then the troll keeps going/makes it worse. The best solution in that instance is to just ignore the guy and play to the best of your ability.

Also, if the team starts raging at the troll in chat or all chat esp if it's more than "report for feeding" requests, then the troll then can (and in some cases has a right to) report his own team for harassment and verbal abuse... the case then becomes all players are now toxic to each other and the game loses all quality of fun that it originally had

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

All valid, but (still playing D'sA =D) in the end of your given example what would you consider the larger issue to address, the cause (troll) of the rage or the rage itself? Cutting off the source can prevent the raging, but not Garen tee it. If the raging is somehow nullified (let's say mute button) then trolls will have less of a perverted incentive to troll, but again not guarantee the absence of trolling.

Which do you think is a better avenue of approach to combat toxicity? There is no right answer imho, but I'm curious on your take. :)

Zalkreai1 votes

lol @ the Garen joke xD

I think the larger issue is the cause (troll) in this example. Player 1 is upset over the loss of the surrender vote and now blames his team for wasting his time. If Player 1 acknowledges that his team still thinks that they have a chance, even if he doesn't agree with it, then he can still play to the best of his ability and get enjoyment out of the game.

Now some might argue that Player 1 can no longer get enjoyment because he is fighting a losing battle (at least in his head). This is a valid argument, because in Player 1's perspective they are going to lose anyway and now he has to watch as his team slowly dies, which, in all honesty, isn't very fun.

I think this is when we get down to basic individuality. Some people will go, okay I have to play this out I should make the most of it, and others will be disappointed and upset (which leads back to the rage issue). At that point it's all up to Player 1 to decide which route to take, potentially enjoyable, or suffer through it.

Personally I see the "suffer through it" option taken a lot more often that the "enjoy it" option, which is a bit of a disappointment in the overall league community. Taking the negative route almost always will lead to a loss for the team in the scenario, because Player 1's "heart" is no longer in the game, even if he doesn't troll, he is not likely to play to the best of his ability.

(Gosh my posts are wordy, sorry about that)

In conclusion I guess it all comes down to overall player maturity when it comes to combating toxicity. Unfortunately in a game like League, due to the player base, it is unlikely that the majority of players will "take the high road" because it is much easier to rage and blame your team than to just keep on truckin'

On a more personal note, I think people need to just get over it and play the game, there are 9 other people who are trying to have fun, don't be a douche and ruin it for them, it's very self-centered. :( If you can't say/do anything nice, don't say anything at all, and do the nice thing anyway xD

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Ohoho, just you wait until my "Toxicity-What can WE do" [Debate] I think you'll like it. =)

But that's next week. Thanks for humoring my debating side. That's all I got for now, hopefully others will start another debate here off of a different start so we can keep this going! :)

Zalkreai2 votes

Looking forward to it, that was fun :) I love a good debate (as long as people are civil about it lol)

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

As a little heads up, the next [Debate] post is up now, here. Feel free to point out anything I missed, anything you wanted to address, or just pass through :)

Roaranor1 votes

Some aspects of your post are whited out for me (highlighting will not reveal the text either). Specifically, between:

  • "stances," and "is broadly defined"

  • "does it take for" and "to label"

  • the last word in the above sentence

  • The bulleted points after that sentence up until the ground rules for debates.

Just thought I'd point this out, though I can't confirm it happening for anyone else.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Yeah, for whatever reason bolded text and anything that borders that text takes slightly longer to load than the rest of the page and can get stuck. I have it happen a lot more on Chrome than firefox so far, but I can confirm it happening to me too on other posts.

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