Boards›[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

[Debate] New vs. Old, Player Priority

Sir ArmaMalum··11 votes·3,405 views

######Sorry for the delay all, finals and what-not

Hello and welcome to my weekly (at least that's what I shoot for) [Debate] post. In this post series I outline a subject with LoL, and encourage people to post their own opinions and views about the subject. I hope to spark intelligent, civil and open-minded debate amongst the community. Just in case you don’t know how to do debate that here are the guidelines:

  • Don't dismiss anyone's opinions, opinions are never wrong, you just disagree with them.
  • You are free to disagree with someone always, but always do your best to explain why.
  • Don't get emotional, hopefully we're all adults here, keep it in 'debate' mode. No catfights allowed.
  • Feel free to disagree with my OP as well! I love feedback, but this is a debate thread, I'll respond where I can!
  • There is a comment reply cap! You only have a few tries to rebuttle and argue a point, so make them count!

#####Want to help decide what topic comes next? Well you can! Poll below!

##http://i.imgur.com/QQfPEKT.png New vs. Old Players

Here we are again folks, but this time I want you to ask you about priorities. Just because one side is outweighed by the other in matters of preference, it doesn’t mean that the ‘losing’ side is unappreciated, but it does mean a decision has to be made if they’re directly pitted against each other. In other words, I’m not trying to start a schism here, players are players no matter what. But there is always the question of ‘what would you do if…’ as I’m giving here.

##http://i.imgur.com/sxlqsLY.png The Question

So place yourself in a game dev’s shoes. The MMO game you are in charge of is stable financially and is in no immediate danger, but naturally you have to keep it maintained and updated. You have a unique, unspecified issue that means delaying one of two game updates.

  • One gives a reward to loyal, veteran players for their time spent in-game.

  • The other gives increased incentive for new players and the players recruiting them.

Which update would you delay? Neither or both is not an option. In a perfect world this would both be delayed and released at the same time, but the point is, as a hypothetical game dev who would you like to please a little bit more?.

And why? Is it for the money? Is it for the ethics? Is it for a hopeful later result of some kind?

There is no right or wrong answer, someone is going to profit and another side is going to be given the short straw.

(Clarification Edit: hypothetical situation for a hypothetical game, I want your opinion on your own choice, not anything done by Riot in this regard.)

##http://i.imgur.com/97tLT4T.png My Opinion

Personally I would go for delaying the old players. Now, a lot of the people roaming the forums are indeed old players myself included, so hear me out first. Old players have stayed for a while for some reason and introducing a new incentive for new, low-level, low-experience players will more than likely not affect the older, farther progressed players, except for possibly bringing in new players for them to interact with later on down the road. This means the older players still have the game they’ve been (hopefully) enjoying and spending their time on unchanged.

I prioritize new blood over older in MMO design of any kind. An MMO will always lose older players for different reasons out of the dev’s control, but increased effort to advertise and incentivize new players coming in is perfectly within a dev’s control and it’s flat out required to keep a game running. A new player experience is incredibly important to constantly improve and prioritize.

Even the best fishing rod will flounder without a good bait and hook.

###Previous: Community Responsibility

###Next: Nikasaur's Void

###All [Debates]

Want more gameplay related topics? Try out a sister series by CaptainMårvelous. I tend to stick to more out of game, philosophical or ethical conversations.

38 Comments

CaptainWednesday12 votes

I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion on the subject, ArmaMalum. You said quote, "I prioritize new blood over older in MMO design of any kind." Let's clarify quickly that League of Legends is not an MMO. It is a MOBA. You engage in PvP with a small number of players through a queue system rather than the open-ended MMO version of PvP. That being said, the two should be treated differently.

I do not mind Riot wanting get some new blood into the League, that's great. However, League of Legends is now the most popular and most played online game in the world. What more does Riot have left to prove? Is it seriously still a huge priority to grow the player base? I would hope not and something tells me Riot aligns this way as well. Now that they have a huge player base, they want to open up some of the older experiences that the fresh meat did not have (re-releasing the Limited Skins as Legacy). That being said, earlier players have some nice rewards (Judgement Kayle, King Rammus, UFO Corki, etc.)

Also, Riot is beginning to take a strict Quality > Quantity stance. Back when League started Riot pumped out tons of content to get players interested. Now, they're going back and making improvements to the older things to please the players that have had to witness "pizza feet" for years now. Riot is making up for their earlier content by improving it to keep the older players with refreshing content while still staying true to the source material.

Short story short, I think its time for Riot to focus on the massive player base they have rather than continue to try and build it up. They've shown the world what they can do. Now it's time to for them to do more for us, the dedicated ones. And they do it everyday. That's why Riot is the greatest gaming company out there today.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

You are completely right to call me out on the difference between an MMO and a MOBA, I'll be honest I didn't consider that difference enough when I wrote this.

However, I am actually more interested in the hypothetical situation and the choice you as person would make in this situation. I actually didn't mention (or intend to imply) an opinion of Riot or their decisions here, but for the record I do agree with you in that regard. However, if I was in charge of an online multiplayer (MOBA or otherwise) that was notbthe largest game in the world but stable, and ran into this problem, I would go for the new players first.

Also, sorry for any spelling/grammar mistakes in my replies, I'm on my phone right now :P

CaptainWednesday1 votes

No, you're totally good. I just wanted to make sure you knew the difference because it was a nice lead into my further arguments. In that sense, yes, going for the new blood and recruitment outweighs catering to the veterans. I just used Riot as an example because I thought you were implying their situation.

We both know how stressful using the mobile on the CB can be :P

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I would love to go back and do a small clarification edit, but i'm gonna wait till I can get to my laptop

Edit: And edited in

Tulare7 votes

I lean toward providing rewards and incentives for newer players. I'm wary of the idea that existing players need rewards or incentives at all. Ostensibly, the gameplay is the incentive to be loyal to the game. If there's some special reward, then it's almost inevitable that some/many players will grind for that reward, belittle players who get in the way of grinding for the reward, and lose appreciation for the intrinsic rewards offered by the gameplay.

And as I wrote that, it occurred to me that this problem already exists in LoL. See: IP, ranking, records, etc. I'm sure they make the game more popular and encourage players to play more but they're not without side effects.

RiotBuboBubo5 votes

Good points - particularly the side effects

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Congrats BuboBubo, you are officially the first Rioter to grace one of my Debate posts.

While I can't say I'm surprised with you being awesomely active on the CB and all, I can however say thank you for visiting! =)

Bubble Butt Lulu3 votes

I feel like Riot has already shown their stance on this issue in the past, namely the re-releasing of Limited Edition skins. They went back on their promise to the games oldest players, people who got this game to where it is. I could probably come up with a few other examples as well, but I think that one is enough. I don't really know where I stand on the issue, it's tough.

CaptainWednesday1 votes

I think it's fairly simple really. As a company, you set a goal for the amount of players you want to play on your product (game, etc.). In Riot's case, they wanted a lot! Once you have met your goal of finding the fresh pups, you then cater to your veterans. Eventually, you bring everyone in line to where the question is not how to reward Old VS New Players, it becomes how to reward Dedicated Players.

TheRealCoxinator1 votes

I believe one of the ways they are doing this is the lifetime RP rewards.

CaptainWednesday2 votes

Well, even that's a hot topic. Some people do not want it, but some do. I think those that spend money on a free to play game should be rewarded, as long as it does not make them better than those who do not. It's all about if Riot does this and the execution of it.

RiotBuboBubo5 votes

I don't think it's as binary as get over X threshold of new players and then focus on making the ones you have happy. It's a constant tension between prioritizing one vs the other because both are important for a healthy player base.

Fomorian272 votes

I actually have an example of catering to old players where it can actually be detrimental to the game, namely the skill assignments for some older champs is not in line with newer champs. Alistar for example if he were new would have his w as his heal, and his q and e as his headbutt pulv. A rioter actually said that they weren't changing this because of how the players who were used to the champs wouldn't like it, but I was left wondering why newer players had to be shafted. I felt like these champs like alistar were off limits because I just couldn't get the hang of the ability layout.

CaptainWednesday1 votes

It's more complex than that? If that is the case, what is the hardest decision you (or any other Rioter in this case) have had to make when appealing to Old and/or New Players?

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

It is tough which is why I'm very curious on different people's take on the hypothetical decision. Like I said there's really no right or wrong answer.

I do want to go back and clear up the fact this OP isn't trying to connect this idea with any of Riot's policies though, but I'm limited to my ohone right now and it's difficult to even reply coherently :P

Mandaari4 votes

I don't think that's fair to say that their decision to re-release LE skins was only for new players. I've played since 2010, so I'm by no means a new players. As a "veteran" I'm happy that they re-released the skins. For one reason or another I didn't get some skins I wanted when they were released, and now I have a chance to again. I wouldn't call that only a reward to new players.

lightdragoon883 votes

Mmmm....I have to say delay the one for new players.

There are already a ton of things for new players to do when they come in. Just making it to level 20-30 is a journey as is. They also have to find the champs they like and picking up skins, playing the game modes, and runes.

Having to much on top of new players can overwhelm them more than helping them.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Makes perfect sense. Feature overload is a valid fear for a new player experience.

DeSolu2 votes

I'd have to go with old players. They are more likely to dish out cash. Also, i think the new blood is affecting toxicity levels.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

While possibly going outside the topic, may I ask why you feel new players might be adding to a negative atmosphere more so than older? I can think of a few possible reasons myself, but I would love to hear your reasoning as well.

Tiropat2 votes

Well, if I'm working on a theoretical online multiplayer game it should be the theoretical game I have imagined making. The game I have wanted to make would have very little content before endgame taking more time to learn the mechanics of the game than to grind levels.

So theoretical new player incentive would be high quality guides and veteran reward would be a new class.

I would have to delay the veteran content in favor of the new player guides because guides while making the game have a smaller barrier of entry will also help older players who still struggle with basic mechanics. While a new class would provide more superfluous options to a new player and make the game harder to enter.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I will admit the argument of most new player benefits will benefit the entire player base and not vice versa was something I personally didn't consider. And it's been popping up decently often. I'll add a debate topic on "exclusivity" on my list of upcoming posts thanks to you guys =D

Linna Excel2 votes

I'd just like to be able to buy Justicar Kayle. Kitty Girl Sej in GD had a nice post awhile ago about opening up skins based on time of the year for 1-2 weeks.

As for which one I'd delay, I really can't tell without more info and some numbers. I mean if the benefit for the veterans is lesser than for new players, that is the one I'd delay. And vice verse.

There's also pipeline concerned which you didn't bring up. Which one getting delayed would have the worse impact overall? If the thing for older players will be more critical for resources in the long run, then I'd delay that.

So my answer is whatever is more pragmatic at the time, all things being equal.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I'll admit I'm starting to regret trying out a hypothetical situation, it seems to be muddling up a lot of opinions. The intent was to levy the choice between new and old players in terms of priority while giving the option a somewhat less biased discussion. (i.e. New players wouldn't say "New players" just because that's what they themselves are)

If I had given details like "X" gives more than "Y", or "A" will take longer than "B" then I believe that would have shifted the conversation away from the intended conflict between new and old players. Which is also the reason why I didn't give specific examples of what these features are.

Honestly, I'll probably stick to a direct question next time. I think the scope of the situation is pretty blurry as I have explained it, but you never know until you try right? XD

NoticesKouhai2 votes

I'd say to prioritize the older players. They've been supporting the game longer, after all.

OGRichardNixon2 votes

Sorry I don't have time now to read anyone else's opinions. I'm going to agree that I would delay the update for old players. Older players might just turn into recruiters, if the incentive is good enough in the other update, and bringing your irl friends into the game can add new life to the game for you.

When I receive incentives from games it has little to no affect on me wanting to play the game still or not. I gain some respect for the devs good will gesture, but I don't feel like delaying a recruitment strategy is a good idea if possible to avoid.

Thales1 votes

One question I have regarding the premise is whether it will be known that I'm abandoning an attempt to do the one I decide against.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Good question. Personally I would say yes, but to repeat its merely a delay, not abandoning. I'm hoping for people's preferences on which side to prioritize and their logic behind the decision, and public disclosure usually shouldn't affect the thought process.

NinjaToad991 votes

I'd focus on the new first, then the old. Because even if what I do will make some veterans go, "WHAT IS THIS?!?!?!?!" and rage quit, the update for the vets should (Hopefully) make them go, "I need this in my life right here, right now." and join back in. Of course, I'd rather just put them both out at the same time, but if that's not an option then new first, old second.

MiyokoShadow1 votes

Perhaps different rewards for each. Loyal players could get something more rare like the equivalent of a legacy skin, and newer players could get something like the equivalent of an IP boost. With the rewards going up as time passes on. ie the players in seasons 3 would have rewards less than players in season 2, and players in season 1 would have greater rewards that players in season 2. Then when season 5, 6 and 7 come around, the players in previous seasons would get greater and greater rewards.

hartar1 votes

I agree with Captain Wednesday.WHit what Riot already did,should be enough to attract more people.It is better to focus on older,and more loyal costumers.Like Danny,from Count Kostume,said:A new client is,a reapet client is great,but,a loyal one,is just down rigth amazing.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I don't think you can make a decision based on the criteria you outlined in the OP. Because any specific situation is going to have a lot of factors at play; if you don't consider them, you're generalizing, which is generally bad. So, instead of immediately taking a side, I'll list off some of the criteria I think should be taken into account:

  • Size of your player base, and optimal Size of player base (ie, do you want to keep growing?)
  • Current level of happiness of player base (ie, do you need to do something so they'll stay, or are they currently content?)
  • What did you do the last time you were in this situation? It might be worth mixing things up so you don't build up the perception of "company X prefers to bring in new players over keeping its old players happy" or vice versa.
  • Do either features have a benefit in the other direction? (for example, fixing Pizza Feet might be throwing a bone to old players, but it also makes the game look nicer for new players. On the other hand, a new tutorial is useful only to new players.)
  • (I'm assuming the features are equally easy to implement, but in the likely scenario that they are not, whichever is easier might be worth shipping earlier.)
Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I do agree generalization usually leads to uninformed business decisions and that there are a lot of different, more specific criteria to build a realistic situation. But I'm not intending this to be realistic, it's more a vehicle to simply ask about someone's opinion on prioritizing new players vs. old players while trying to funnel them off into a neutral stance (wanted to avoid "give old players stuff because I'm an old player" and what-not). So as far as what my logic was is that generalizing made it easier for everyone to comment on and give their equally generalized opinion without getting lost in the specifics.

Now my logic could be flawed I'll admit, I'm not perfect, so I'll happily lay out specifics. =)

  • mid-sized MMO game, using Runescape as a guideline, let's say 50k-60k average active players at a given time. Growth is a priority but not at the top.

  • Content

  • No precedent for specifically game-time based additions beyond normal content expansions and maintenance.

  • Let's say the new player content involves a bonus for recruitment, so old players have the option to profit from that

  • Both are as close to equally easy to implement as possible, that's kind of getting outside the scope of the decision's intended thought process.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

First off, thank you; you just helped me figure out my opinion! I'm inclined to ship updates that pander to the existing player base. Why? It was this quote that got me thinking...

  • Let's say the new player content involves a bonus for recruitment, so old players have the option to profit from that

I think that there are 4 things that get new players to come to a game and stick with it:

  1. Marketing/Promotion (including word of mouth). ie, getting people to try your game.
  2. Ease of entry. If the game is confusing and hard to pick up, fewer players are going to stay.
  3. Quality of content. You need high-quality content so players won't get bored of your game.
  4. Rewards that directly stem from spending time in game; This is similar to #3, but includes things like quantity of content, rewards that unlock over time (IP), etc.

#####So when you talk about improvements to the game, you're really talking about which of these 4 areas you should improve.
So, to make this relevant to this [Debate]: what demographics do these areas pander to?

  1. Marketing/Promotion panders mostly to new players, but can also affect old players in the form of recruitment bonuses.
  2. Content that improves the ease of entry benefits new players exclusively, unless the previous content was so bad that existing players still have a lot to learn about the game.
  3. Better Quality content benefits both new and existing players, though it favors existing players slightly.
  4. Rewards for time spent in game pander exclusively to existing players (once you've passed the threshold of "enough content").

I think that all players are equally important to the game - a player who quits is a player who quits, whether they're new or old. Yes, old players are known to like the game and stick with it, whereas a new player is no guarantee, but they'll also leave eventually no matter what, so a new player can prospectively be part of the playerbase for longer.

So, in general, I think it's best to focus on content that does the most for the most people. That is, 3 > 1 > 2 > 4.

However, even this needs some strings attached. Because you need a certain minimum of 2, 3, and 4 before your game is even ready to ship. Then you need to focus on 1 & 4 (as long as your content is meeting your minimum quality standards). Then you need to focus on 3 and get your previously released content up to better quality standards, and improve tutorials. It's all about what stage of development your game is in. (For example, I think League's tutorials are outdated enough that we could get significantly more benefit out of an updated tutorial system, that talks about strategy, itemization, etc.)

But Hyrum, you've strayed from the topic! The [Debate] asked specifically to choose between two updates:

  • One gives a reward to loyal, veteran players for their time spent in-game.
  • The other gives increased incentive for new players and the players recruiting them.

This looks to me like a choice between 4 and 1. In a stable game with enough content, 1 is better than 4, IMO, as it reaches more people. So I'd go with the incentive for new people and recruiters.

I just want to add on there, though, that this post only presented those two options, when there are two more - and in the scenario described, I'd much rather focus on creating quality content and especially improving the quality of older content. And Riot agrees with me, which is why this is the year of the rework. :D

Gilbot1 votes

hi

Donivin1 votes

I am of no opinion. Neither have anything to do with the game or community, save that of adding frills.

Bubrub1 votes

All i want is my Lissandra Ult fixed. :'C

I Main Swain1 votes

personally, I think it depends on a few things. if it is a relatively new game (~1-3 years) I would go for the new players, maybe even to 4 years depending on how popular the game is. also, if the game doesn't have a whole ton of exciting things in it, I would go for pleasing the new players. otherwise, in both scenarios, I would go for the older players.

if it came down to it, situation aside, I would pick old players.

More from [ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

Open Letter to Parents of League of Legends Players
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous860 comments
2,611
votes
Rewards for positive play
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous19,712 comments
1,337
votes
I don't like Boards
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous324 comments
809
votes
STOP ALLOWING LEVEL 1 ACCOUNTS TO SEND FRIEND REQUESTS!!!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous291 comments
679
votes
Wanting to do something special for an awesome friend. Riot, please help? <3
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous220 comments
614
votes
People that are telling others to kill themselves has to stop! Please help me get this noticed!
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous605 comments
600
votes

More by Sir ArmaMalum

Before you make a post about balance...
Gameplay577 comments
498
votes
Board Formatting 101
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous57 comments
58
votes
[PotD] [Survey] Personality Type and Favorite Champion <> UPDATE and DATA
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous66 comments
42
votes
How to: Properly Frame an Argument
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous26 comments
30
votes
[CCC] January Champion Concept Contest is here!!! Finally!
Concepts & Creations176 comments
29
votes
[CCOS] January entries here!
Concepts & Creations142 comments
27
votes