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Hypothetical Theivery

xKageSama19··3 votes·1,157 views

Okay, hypothetically I own a gym. It's an open gym and anyone can come in and exercise by signing up for a free membership. But you can't use my equipment. I will allow you to use my equipment if you pay a one time rental fee associated with your membership. But this only applies to one piece of equipment, so the more you want to use the more one time rental fee's you need to pay. You decided you want to try out a bunch of equipment one day and apply several equipment rentals to your membership. I agree, run your card, and put them on your membership. I immediately after tear up your membership because I didn't like the way you were exercising. You ask for all of your equipment rental fees back, but I inform you that in the contract that changes every week there is a clause that says "We can do whatever we want because we made you sign a contract" even though it is clearly illegal. You bring the matter up with the court system and they inform me that just because I made you sign a contract doesn't mean that I can get away with it. It is theft, plain and simple. You paid me for a service and I denied you that service after payment.

This is what Riot is doing. It is not legal just because it says so in their ToS. I already know there will be a lot of people just trolling or talking shit on this. But I am serious. The community shouldn't just let them get away with bold faced robbery. Someone who knows how to set up a class action lawsuit needs to set one up so that this crap will come to an end. If Riot terminates your account and you have paid for services, all payments should be refunded in full.

28 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

Eh. I don't think that's how it works. You're welcome to start a class action and see where it goes.

EvilMerodach3 votes

Nah man..it's more like you pay for bright lights and sound effects on your equipment. Then you got kicked out for being a dick to other customers.

xKageSama191 votes

They concept still applies. I paid for those bright lights and sound effects but received nothing. Hence illegal.

Rand0mH3r0X3 votes

BUT!!

Did you eat the steak though? You can't have your money back once you've eaten your steak. This is like the first thing they teach you in Law school.

If you used the skin, then legally you've "eaten the steak" however, had you bought all these skins, never used them, and told Riot this, I'm sure they'd refund everything (mostly because legally, they have to) because you paid for a product that you did not use AND could not use. If you used the skin, and you've done so repeatedly, then you have been using the product. Your agreement to buy the product, and use it under Riot's ToS, was your will, and once you've completed your use of it, there is no returns.

It's not thievery, that's the Terms of Service you are legally bonded to.

Think of like a monthly subscription to... a Phone Service. You paid for premium services, and add-ons, used them frequently, but since you kept hooking up unlawful connections or violating the terms of service, you're subscription is denied. You are not granted by any court the money in which you paid in the previous months if : you could use, and/or did use the service. Any payments received after termination of your contract will be obligatorily returned to you, because you cannot and could not use the service.

In fact, companies have more leverage in a case lke this, since they can authorize you a service and present evidence that it was usable, then you are liable for the payment. If you're receiving premium services but not paying, you can incur charges. Like a cable company charge back for channels you weren't suppose to get, that could happen. I doubt Riot has that ability here.

l Main Renekton2 votes

{quoted}

BUT!!

Did you eat the steak though? You can't have your money back once you've eaten your steak. This is like the first thing they teach you in Law school.

Considering that it's a reusable cosmetic, it isn't on a consumption basis. You don't lose the skin after you use it one time.

HOWEVER: I do think that the risk of refunding permabanned players might enforce Riot to be more hesitant to issue permabans - because that would cost them money. Which would mean less bans, which means part of the toxic community sticks around.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

The same with a shirt. You don't lose the shirt after wearing it once. But after you've ripped off the tags and worn it a couple times, its no sell-able or returnable. It could be in the exact same condition as before, but the Return Policy of whatever company kicks in, and you are subject to their rules.

The government doesn't get involved in these return rules because you are not the victim of any fraud, such as the sale of a recalled item, or anything of that sort. Business practice such as buying and selling hasn't really been looked at by the U.S. Government too much, so it's fare to say that typical rules of commerce apply.

E.g. If he paid to use to skin for 5 days, but League shut down after 3, he gets his 2 Day money's worth back.

Riot is at no wrongdoing if they sold a service to whomever with indefinite use, and that whomever had the ability to use and did use, when Riot abruptly canceled it.

xKageSama191 votes

{quoted}

BUT!!

Did you eat the steak though? You can't have your money back once you've eaten your steak. This is like the first thing they teach you in Law school.

Yes, you are correct. That is a product. I am talking about a service. And if the purchase of RP counts as a product it still applies. If I go to a restaurant, order a steak, get kicked out, never get my steak, do I still have to pay for it? No.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

That's true. You don't pay for anything. And you demand your money back, loudly if you have to, because most business are very aware about public opinion and how that affects their business.

However, I think I'd use my new skins as soon as I could, as frequently as I could, if given the chance. I assume that's your attitude as well, therefore I believe you did use the skins. You're sadly not entitled to having your money back. You can always submit a Ticket and ask.

Randomonium3 votes
  1. The last time Riot updated their "Terms of Use" was October 23rd, 2012 so you saying that they change their contract "every week" is a bold faced lie.
  2. If you don't like the terms of use don't agree to them.
  3. The game, and all things in it, are Riot's property.
  4. The "Terms of Use" clearly define what "acceptable" behavior is. If you CHOOSE to do inappropriate things with your account they have the right to terminate your account with them. This is no different than any other service or membership anywhere else in the world. If you break the rules your membership will be cancelled with no refunds.
  5. Your gym analogy is very flawed. A more accurate analogy would be if you repeatedly yelled and screamed at other people in the Gym and you were warned multiple times that if you didn't change your behavior the Gym would cancel you membership. Of course you didn't change your behavior and when the gym cancelled your membership you demanded your money back. You acted like an ass, they warned you, you disregarded their warning and so they had no choice but to cancel your membership. Its not like they like losing customers but they know they will lose even more customers if toxic people are allowed to use their services and go unpunished. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Pretty much anywhere you go if you act like an ass people are going to ask you to leave and not allow you to come back because the happiness and rights of one person are not more important than the happiness and rights of the collective whole.
xKageSama191 votes

{quoted}

  1. The last time Riot updated their "Terms of Use" was October 23rd, 2012 so you saying that they change their contract "every week" is a bold faced lie.
  2. If you don't like the terms of use don't agree to them.
  3. The game, and all things in it, are Riot's property.
  4. The "Terms of Use" clearly define what "acceptable" behavior is. If you CHOOSE to do inappropriate things with your account they have the right to terminate your account with them. This is no different than any other service or membership anywhere else in the world. If you break the rules your membership will be cancelled with no refunds.
  5. Your gym analogy is very flawed. A more accurate analogy would be if you repeatedly yelled and screamed at other people in the Gym and you were warned multiple times that if you didn't change your behavior the Gym would cancel you membership. Of course you didn't change your behavior and when the gym cancelled your membership you demanded your money back. You acted like an ass, they warned you, you disregarded their warning and so they had no choice but to cancel your membership. Its not like they like losing customers but they know they will lose even more customers if toxic people are allowed to use their services and go unpunished. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Pretty much anywhere you go if you act like an ass people are going to ask you to leave and not allow you to come back because the happiness and rights of one person are not more important than the happiness and rights of the collective whole.

Thank you for taking the time to read the comments actually explaining what was going on before just making an inane comment.

Randomonium1 votes

I did, I don't believe that you got banned because of one person. If you want to prove me wrong post your reform card. And I don't really care if you got banned right after you purchased RP. If you weren't an ass you wouldn't have gotten banned in the first place.

Thanks for actually responding to all my points.

IcyPepper1 votes

Wait, I'm confused.

Are you saying you should get refunds for your skins if your account gets permabanned?

l Main Renekton1 votes

{quoted}

Wait, I'm confused.

Are you saying you should get refunds for your skins if your account gets permabanned?

I think that's what's implied here

IcyPepper1 votes

Doesn't make sense to me.

They don't take your skins away, you just can't play the game.

It'd be like getting kicked out of school. They're not giving your tuition back.

I immediately after tear up your membership because I didn't like the way you were exercising.

Now I definitely see the bias here. A better example would be "I immediately tear up your membership because you refused to follow the rules and ruined the environment for other members."

Riot does not ban you because of skill or how you play (off-meta, or whatever). Not to mention they don't "immediately tear up your membership," you get progressive penalties that should give you ample time to reform (unless you do something really bad to escalate the punishment).

This comparison is pretty damn biased and misleading, not to mention flawed...

xKageSama191 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't make sense to me.

They don't take your skins away, you just can't play the game.

It'd be like getting kicked out of school. They're not giving your tuition back.

Now I definitely see the bias here. A better example would be "I immediately tear up your membership because you refused to follow the rules and ruined the environment for other members."

Riot does not ban you because of skill or how you play (off-meta, or whatever). Not to mention they don't "immediately tear up your membership," you get progressive penalties that should give you ample time to reform (unless you do something really bad to escalate the punishment).

This comparison is pretty damn biased and misleading, not to mention flawed...

Actually, I had an account get a permanent suspension because ONE player decided to report me for putting up a surrender vote twice in a row. I didn't swear, I didn't insult. I argued with him a little over something else. He was thin skinned and the new ban system doesn't take anything other than the fact that you were reported into account. Also, the point is they will take your money as the are banning you. I payed for a service/product and was denied it. I'm fairly certain this is illegal despite them making up some bogus ToS that says they can do what ever they want. And I'm certain that I'm not the only one this has happened to, hence the class action instead of small claims.

IcyPepper3 votes

You got permanently suspended because one person reported you.

Right...

Haven't heard that one before.

l Main Renekton1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't make sense to me.

They don't take your skins away, you just can't play the game.

It'd be like getting kicked out of school. They're not giving your tuition back.

Now I definitely see the bias here. A better example would be "I immediately tear up your membership because you refused to follow the rules and ruined the environment for other members."

Riot does not ban you because of skill or how you play (off-meta, or whatever). Not to mention they don't "immediately tear up your membership," you get progressive penalties that should give you ample time to reform (unless you do something really bad to escalate the punishment).

This comparison is pretty damn biased and misleading, not to mention flawed...

I think that this being a unique situation as far as good/service is concerned, not many analogies can be that accurate and similar to this game

IcyPepper1 votes

shrugs

Honestly I think it'd be less confusing and more straight to the point to drop the whole analogy altogether and just talk about the issue on hand.

l Main Renekton2 votes

{quoted}

shrugs

Honestly I think it'd be less confusing and more straight to the point to drop the whole analogy altogether and just talk about the issue on hand.

I mean do you think the community is mature enough to discuss that when they downvote my comment up there where I say I want to see other opinions on the matter?

The community is already close minded and probably doesn't want to discuss it directly. The fancy analogy is just to pull people in and get them to see what OP thinks is a similar situation.

IcyPepper1 votes

Yeah, probably why I was confused. Something seemed fishy.

Also OP is nothing new. Guy is trying to sell me that one guy reported him and he got permanently suspended for it. Yeesh, he has not been here long to think he's the first to pull that trick. We all know how the system works (to a degree), he isn't fooling anybody who knows how to use a search engine.

xKageSama191 votes

I mean, it's a simple concept. If you pay for a product or service, you are entitled to that product/service or get your money back. If I hire an electrician to come to my house to fix some wiring, he takes the money, and never does the job I can sue him to get my money back since I never received what I paid for.

Naramiel1 votes

I agree that far too many people are ready to assume that a company can put literally anything into its ToS/EULA and that makes it legal.

That being said, the financial system has been entirely happy to support the "paying for company points doesn't guarantee you anything". Whenever the courts finally get to resolving the question I imagine it will be over something more sympathetic than "player got banned from a game for racist language and swear words."

insaiyanbacca1 votes

pretty sure at any place after paying for something and using it you dont get your money back, js. you used the service and the gym didnt like the way you treated their equipment so they got rid of you. also if you're using an analogy here you also need to add that you don't even own said gym membership you sign up for it and are allowed to pay the one time fees to use the equipment but u dont own the membership the gym does.

Millicent1 votes

If another reply is correct and this is about getting permabanned after you've paid for skins and shit, then I disagree with this post. Yea, you've spent money. They appreciate it as it helps them keep going. You get banned. You're pissed. You shouldn't have done what you did to get banned. End of argument.

Humphrey071 votes

so are we all technically leasing the skins then... that would probably make more sense

xKageSama191 votes

So many are stuck on my specific situation. Let me clear it up a bit. I had the game, no toxcity, just gave up on winning and kept trying to surrender. Someone reported me. I was looking at skins, purchased RP, then got banned. I received nothing for my purchase.

My point isn't my specific situation. It's wrongdoings by Riot under the guise of legality. And what's worse is people either don't understand or don't care, some even just feel like trolling, and allow this misconduct to continue. What I am looking for here is buyer protection. They need to be told in an official capacity that they are not allowed to take peoples money in return for nothing. That is called theft. I want some safeguard in place that prevents this kind of theft. I'm not gonna lie, retroactive compensation would be nice, but is doubtful.

l Main Renekton

+1

But I want to see some of the arguments that people have against this, too.

EDIT: Since when is wanting to see other opinions downvote worthy?

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