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Quick question about when to blame jungler.

Stephenizgod··1 votes·425 views

So i played a really crappy game as Garen top vs Teemo, and while i never died to teemo, i did get outfarmed and lost my turret eventually (mine was last to go down of the out turrets). Our Wukong didnt gank at all and blamed us for not winning lanes, i was constantly asking for help because Teemo was seriously pushing on me, i couldnt farm without taking half my life, and was at my turret 99% of laning phase. The one gank i got he almost died to teemo and wld have given him blue and red so i went in to save him and stop that and ended up dying to Xin Zhao. So this is where my question comes in, was it right to blame the Wukong for not ganking? He never went Mid and while our bot was pushing, when they were being pressured he didnt go bottom, he just farmed and would every once in awhile waste an ult on 1 person or most times nothing. Im just curious if there was anything i should have done. The enemy Xin Zhao said i should have let teemo have our turrets instead of trying to hold him off, which i disagreed with, he said its my fault for losing to Teemo not Wukongs fault for not ganking even though he should have.

So what do you think? were we in the wrong for blaming Wu? we are not talking about his lack of skill, because he was bad so many wasted ults. Im talking about him not ganking simply because i lost lane and he didnt think he could gank.

29 Comments

MackleDoge3 votes

I think you should consider focusing on your own gameplay. There is always something that you could do to improve your own game. You can't be perfect, and blaming others isn't going to help you improve any. As a matter of fact, blaming people is a complete waste of time and doesn't do a single thing to help that game or any game you play later. Blaming people is a waste of time and always the wrong choice. I'm not saying that Wukong didn't make mistakes, he obviously did, but so did you. Focus on improving that, not pointing fingers.

Stephenizgod2 votes

I was focusing on my gameplay, in fact i was the only person not openly blaming Wukong, i didnt realize that he wasnt ganking until i saw everyone else complaining, i thought it was just my lane and while i was upset i was 100% focused on not giving Teemo a single kill on me and trying to keep my turret alive.

MackleDoge1 votes

Then why are you worried about it? If you are playing solo queue the first thing you need to learn is that you can't rely on your teammates to do their job. You are going to get bad players, you are going to get good players that have a bad game, you are going to eventually get players that are playing a role they aren't that good at. Its just part of it, ranked or unranked. Do what you can to control your lane and have a positive impact in the game. At the end of the day, what difference does it make who you blame? The game was still a loss either way.

dog from airbud2 votes

That's not the point he was making, the point was it doesn't matter who you blame in the long run, you're never going to play with that jungler again so it doesn't matter if it was his fault or someone elses. All that matters is that you improve your play, his play shouldn't even come to mind.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Thats what im trying to figure out, i thought my play was good. I kept Teemo top so he couldnt roam, i didnt give him any kills, and i kept my turret alive. When he was gone i farmed when it was too pushed i went for golems or roamed. Im just trying to find out was there anything i could have done differently or was it really just "i got a bad junger and we lost oh well".

dog from airbud1 votes

If your play was good that's great but you're not perfect and you never will be so don't try to figure out if there was anything you could have done differently because I'm 100% sure there was. Sometimes you play well and you lose but that doesn't mean you have to blame someone. Every single person on your team contributed to the loss in at least some small way so don't try to throw it all onto a single person, blaming someone for the loss is an inherently anti-learning thing to do because it completely absolves you from blame even though it's basically impossible to make absolutely no mistakes.

David Haller2 votes

I think you're afforded the option to justify blaming your jungler when that jungler decides that farming the jungle is the entire point of jungling.

If a jungler fails to provide pressure on ANY lane in the game and/or refuses to counter-jungle/counter-gank, etc... he's to blame.

While someone might support an argument about how a jungler isn't responsible for you losing your lane, he is responsible for contributing to the team. And if he's doing bare minimum to keep himself en par with the experience level of everyone else in the game and excluding himself from any cooperative aspects of the goal of the game, he's responsible by default at least in part, to the defeat.

Stephenizgod1 votes

See thats what im kinda thinking, i lost lane not his fault i did, but i just wanted him to help me and he refused to help not only my lane but any lane and instead farmed.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I agree with Mackle and Watchman and also want to provide my own direct reply. But before any of that I want to ask a serious question.

Have you yourself jungled a decent amount? Not specifically Wukong or anything, but enough to say you can play the role comfortably?

MackleDoge1 votes

A good question. It seems pretty obvious to me that at least the OP's attitude towards Wukong was clearly negative and I can't imagine everyone else was particularly positive. It could be that they aren't accustomed to jungling. Could be they don't normally play Wukong. There are a lot of other factors to consider then simply saying "He had a bad gank in my lane it's all his fault". That just simply doesn't help anyone.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Well it was actually a question directed to OP, as in has OP actually jungled a decent amount himself. If he has, he'll probably have a slightly more informed opinion on what classifies as a 'bad gank' and his example jungler's actual level of contribution. If he hasn't, he'll probably fall under where I've seen a lot of people go and simply not understand that if a jungler isn't ganking your lane (it's lawas top complaining too....) then it may possibly be because your bot lane is 13/0 because they have been getting ganks. I can safely say for myself that I respect the jungler position and how difficult it can be ever since I've become practiced in it.

His hopefully eventual answer will change how I approach the rest of my conversation. #socraticmethod

MackleDoge1 votes

Right I get what you were directing the question at and what you were looking for from it, I was just pointing out the flip side of it and how that also effects the situation.

Stephenizgod1 votes

All i can say is my bot was winning, my mid wasnt winning but not losing either. I was only lane being pushed, i was constantly at my turret, and his reason for not ganking was i didnt have enough wards, which was true but only because i couldnt go back or my turret would die and i wasnt getting enough to buy wards when i did go back. So i guess i could have farmed better but it was very difficult.

Stephenizgod1 votes

In ranked i wouldnt imagine someone picking a lane and champ they are not accustomed too, and if you are referring to me i dont jungle often but i do it enough to be competent, and i love being Wukong. He didnt do a bad gank, his gank was fine we did some damage, it was the fact that he tried to go back in when he was low life and their jungler was counterganking, he almost died except i saved him and died in the process.

MackleDoge2 votes

No, they wouldn't pick that, most likely not, but that is assuming he got to pick, which he could have not. Was he first pick? Did he ask for jungle? Those details matter in situations like this. Was he trying to communicate? Was the team trying to communicate productively with him? If his gank was fine then leave it at that. He went back in? Okay? Was the opponent low? If you had gone back in with him would you guys have gotten the kill and got away? Maybe he just made a bad decision or didn't have the right amount of information to decide better. Did you have vision of the enemy jungle when he went back in and if not could you have put a ward down somewhere prior that would have given you guys that vision? I can go on and on, the point is that it is a complete waste of time trying to blame things on and critique the actions of your teammates. It doesn't help you improve any. It isn't going to change it into a win. It shouldn't make you feel better and it certainly won't make your teammate play any better.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I was in duo queue btw, and teemo was low but he knew xin zhao was there, he was going to dive him at the turret but he was also low and no us both goin in would have been a double kill, xin had his Q up. Yes we were all trying to communicate with him. And what im trying to learn here is was there something i could have done about the situation, about wukong, and about teemo.

MackleDoge1 votes

Duo queue or solo queue doesn't actually change anything, there are still the other 3 people on the team you know nothing about and your queue partner can still make mistakes and have a bad game. In this case it sounds like Wukong made a bad decision. That happens. Personally, I wouldn't play Garen because he has issues against a lot of opposing laners and he doesn't fit with how team comps are nowadays, but that is neither here nor there. Wukong made a bad call, you probably should have pinged him early when he was low to back. If he ignores that then let him die, you can't stop people from doing what they want, you can only offer your perspective and advice.

As far as what you could do: Offer advice and encouragement to Wukong. Offer. Don't berate, don't insult. If he listens and tries to work with you guys great, if not, let it go, you can't make them listen it is ultimately their decision. Even if they don't listen, make sure to compliment them with something small whenever they do something good or help you out. Your personal game, I would have had to have watched to offer you anything meaningful. In general, ArmaMalum covered some good information in his response to you, I'd take it, he knows a lot about the game. In general, I'd advise picking stronger laners that you can either snowball hard on or have an impact late game with. On top of that, if you are losing lane like that and ganks aren't working, tell your jungler not to gank. They can be counter jungling instead or helping push down turrets or taking dragons and the like. You don't have to win lane to win the game. You can still win after you lost lane, its perfectly normal. If you want you can either try to provide me with some more detail here and I'll try to help, or if you want you can add me in game and I'd be glad to spectate some for you or just talk in general about any questions you have.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Well the thing about me offering advice... im unranked currently and last season i was silver. This Wukong was like gold 3 and everyone else was Gold 4 or 5 except my duo who is gold 1. So he, and everyone else, made it very clear he thought he was better then me, you seem to think this Wukong was a nice person and he wasnt, he was very toxic, constantly blaming everyone for any mistakes made, despite his incredible lack of skill. But i did ask nicely for help more then once and he turned me down every single time, except the one time and i did ping him to run, he ignored it and it cost me my first death to Xin, the reason i went in to save him is he was going to die to Teemo and i didnt want Teemo having red and blue, i figured it was smarter to die then let Teemo have those. Also Garen is like my best champ, i usually do really well and have done really well against his counters with and without ganks, the problem was this Teemo was definitely better then me skillwise, i did try to outplay him but his reflexes were on point and he knew Teemo better then i knew Garen.

MackleDoge1 votes

Alright, don't take this the wrong way I'm not meaning it to be rude, but it really doesn't matter. Personally I think rank only does a moderate job of representing player skill and it certainly doesn't do a good job at all of representing player knowledge in my opinion. Whether the person is toxic as can be or the friendliest person on the planet, trying to place blame is just a complete waste of time.

I'm just going to sum this up because I don't want to repeat myself or make you feel like I'm berating you. You can't stop people from making bad calls or mistakes, you can only control your gameplay and do your best to give your teammates information to make good decisions or advice if they are willing to listen. In this instance, it would have been better for you to let Wukong die because of his mistakes (mute him if he's being toxic by the way) and then give up the turret to Teemo and try to freeze the lane to catch up on farm. Ward up your side of the jungle and let the rest of your team know that Teemo might roam. All things being equal, yes Wukong has to share the blame, he made bad decisions and mistakes, but that doesn't mean you aren't also responsible (and the rest of your team for that matter) because you always could have made a better play or picked a better course of action to take.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Ok, just gauging where you stood.

Overall, it's very possible he wasn't having a good game. We've all been there. Hell, I've been there more times than I can count (usually playing adc XD) but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself "Will blaming this Wukong help anything?". I'm not trying to dismiss this with a 'turn the other cheek' deal, there are indeed times when blaming someone for an outcome can actually help, usually by accompanying it with a way they could avoid doing it in the future.

Then there comes the problem of identifying where you yourself could have done better and where you were limited by his inabilities. That's usually a tough call even in hindsight. From what you described I actually agree with the Xin Zhao in that giving up a tower would probably have been a better option. The sole fact that you weren't dying and farm was your problem means that if you let your own tower fall, minions would push farther into your side allowing you easier farm. However, this does come at the cost of allowing Teemo to roam. Simple fact is, if you lose your lane it's a question of what will hurt your team's chances less, a roaming lane opponent or you being shut down. another thing that may have helped is asking your jungler if you could farm Wight/Golems to partially alleviate your gold/exp problems. Also roaming on your end may have helped as well, as Teemo cannot push as easily as a lot of top laners.

There were plenty of things that you could have done from what you've told me, but by no means am I saying that the Wukong couldn't have done a lot better either. I'm an experienced top laner, so I just have more advice to give there.

At the end of the day I find pointing fingers very counter productive, but trying to offer advice to others and to yourself on how to improve much more beneficial. Even if you're winning, there's always something one could do to play even better, losing just means more opportunities to learn. To me it sounds like to you that game was a summer course, but that Wukong experienced a full 4-year plan, if you get my meaning.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Thank you, all i was trying to find out was whether i made the right decisions. I kept teemo Top so he couldnt roam and i accomplished that pretty well, i also farmed golems and roamed a bit as well. I was just curious if i made the wrong choices and if i really didnt have a reason to be upset with wukong.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I am not the best jungler by any means, but i do know how to jungle. I could and have played it in ranked if absoultely no one else will, thats about how comfortable i am. And i am not questioning Wukongs skill at jungling, im questioning whether it was right of me to blame him or was there something i could have done differently.

NinjaFifer2 votes

You went against a Teemo top. You know what the correct question you should be asking is? Who's house should you be throwing combustible lemons at, for utilizing the spawn of satan?

Angry Monster1 votes

lol

Stephenizgod1 votes

lol, it sure was an annoying fight. He was good too, my Flash Q E R ignite couldnt kill him because the moment i would flash he would flash too! His reflexes were kickass and he knew teemos range like the back of his hand, poking be at the tower and not getting targeted.

NinjaFifer1 votes

Oh yeah. He's going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for Teemo Mains, and people who talk at the theatre.

Angry Monster2 votes

So my thoughts here as a jungle main.

Normally I would say this is mostly your fault. But if you are right then Wu does have some blame but not in the way you think. Wu should of been doing something in a lane or 2. IF he really was only farming then he was just bad. That said he could of been dealing with the enemy jungler with invades and stuff. So if he was truly only farming then yes. Though its usually hard for laners to see exactly what the jungler is doing. Jungle pressure may not actually get kills when he is trying.

No matter what part of the blame is on you as the laner. Even if you said in champ select please not top, you still have responsibility for your lane. The jungler is not supposed to win the lane for people. In theory( my theory) he is their to just give a edge to break stalemates. Junglers also can try to save a lane if you are a little behind.

I agree with Mackledoge you need to look at your build and game play. What could you done better? It is not impossible to out play a temmo(though can be frustrating). At the end of the day(game) what does it matter if the jungler could of done better? Are you planing on playing with him again?

Focus on what you can change not assigning blame.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Well as ive said before, im not really looking to blame Wukong, regardless of what you guys say he was bad and we did lose because of his lack of skills, it was essentially a 4v5. What i was looking for was did i really lose lane because of me or because i didnt have ganks. Personally i didnt think there was anything i could have done, i didnt give him kills and i didnt give him my turret so he couldnt roam. Also while i agree its not the Junglers fault when a lane loses, i will say it his the junglers responsibility to help losing lanes and to help lanes secure kill if not kill them himself. That is part of the junglers job, you make it sound like his role doesnt involve the lanes at all and i disagree, he is just as important to laning as the laners are. So while i take blame for my loss, i got outplayed and counterpicked, i think im still going to blame Wukong, he purposely did not gank because i was losing and he didnt gank any lane that was asking for help. But like i said im not looking for blame im just curious if there was anything i could have done.

MackleDoge1 votes

As a jungler, you don't gank the losing lane. That is a complete waste of time and resources. It is significantly better to snowball a lane that can carry or make a play on objectives. It is absolutely not my job as a jungler to cover up you getting stomped in lane.

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