How to make J4 and Anivia relevant in light of the mobility creep

Hyrum Graff·May 27, 2014·2 votes·745 views

####First, some background:

and used to be strong picks, because they could create terrain which can turn the tide of a team fight. This was true because not many champs had dashes, so J4's ult really locked up anyone in it, and Anivia's wall was actually a movement impediment.

However, with the slew of recent champs who have gotten dashes (dubbed, "the mobility creep"), these abilities have become less relevant.

####Second, some perspective:

You might be wondering, "If temporary terrain has become weaker, why is still relevant?"
The answer is twofold:

Secondary CC: Trundle's pillar also slows, even if it gets dashed over.
Cooldown: Trundle's max rank pillar is on an 11 second CD (6.6 wth 40% cdr) and lasts for 6 seconds. With his frozen domain, he can easily stay in range of a fleeing target to land his second pillar.

####Third, some short analysis:

The real problem with Jarvan and Anivia's walls isn't that they can't contain people, it's that they don't really have too much of a negative effect on their opponent (assuming the opponent has a dash): the opponent uses said dash, and continues going about their merry way (ie, doing whatever they were doing before; there's no reason NOT to go over the wall).
For contrast, when trundle pillars, you have to think: Do I want to use my dash now, or try to wait out this pillar so I can dash out of the next one? You never have to think, "Am I sure I want to dash out of cataclysm?"

####Fourth, a simple solution:

There needs to be a reason not to use your dash to go over the wall or out of the cataclysm, the same decision you make when you think, "Do I really want to dash through trundle's pillar?"

I think either a being slowed or taking damage for dashing through temporary terrain would be an appropriate consequence.

Thoughts?

######Finally, I must give credit where credit is due: Though the analysis is mine, the original idea is CommanderMath's, in this comment.

13 Comments

Dax AyrtonMay 27, 20142 votes

I think most old champs are really vulnerable to this mobility creep. A possible solution, alternative to yours, would be a new type of debuff: "Locked".

"Locked" would be a special type of CC, with longer duration than most, that would allow movement of the enemy, but he can't use dashes or other "hard" mobility spells to dash. This means that a "Locked" Ezreal can still use his E, but he is forced to Arcane Shift on his own position. He wouldn't dash anywhere, but he can still use the spell offensively. Same with Zed's W (can't switch with his shadow), Jax's Q (can only use at melee range), and other similar skills. "Locked" would be annexed at champions that have been severly outclassed via mobility creep, added to the skills that provide them some control. For example, Anivia would Lock all enemies near her wall, Jarvan would Lock all enemies inside his ultimate, Ryze would Lock an enemy for a duration after his snare, and Brand would Lock an enemy for a short duration after his stun.

OblongOtterMay 27, 20141 votes

Oooh! I really like this "locked" thing.

Hyrum GraffMay 29, 20142 votes

Not to be a downer, but on the CB it's much more effective to upvote his post than to leave a comment like this. Your comment will eventually get lost unless it's upvoted; an upvote helps give visibility to his post.

OblongOtterJun 2, 20141 votes

I did upvote it, but it only gor my upvote. .-.

Hyrum GraffJun 2, 20141 votes

Not sure what that means..?

OmnipheriousMay 27, 20141 votes

Wouldn't it simply be easier to add this 'Locked' state to preexisting snares? If Rune Prison is on you and you try to dash/blink, it should still consume the spell but without you actually moving. That would visually and thematically make sense for most snares wouldn't it? I say most because we have some 'immobilize' spells like Zenith Blade. It is also a way to promote good snare timing and discourage impulse dashes/flashes since less skilled players can punish themselves for using abilities while 'Locked' in a snare.

As for Anivia and Jarvan, just give the same functionality of Trundle Pillar. The pillar pops out of the ground and if you were right on it you get popped up to. Makes complete sense. Jarvan basically does is this in AoE and Anivia does it in a line. Instead of trying to make a convoluted 'Locked' state just give them the same mini displacement on cast. This would add consistency to terrain summoning.

I'm not suggesting that they need these buffs. All I'm saying is there is an easier way to solve the problem for these particular champions based on a recent rework.

Hyrum GraffMay 27, 20141 votes

I don't know about J4's ult (I'm an anivia main), but Anivia's wall already does displace targets who are standing directly on it. Some fun facts:

This happens to both allied and enemy units. Allied and Enemy can ult off of this.
Her lvl 1 wall deals 1 true damage to enemies; this is so Anivia gets assists and draws tower aggro when walling.
When her wall is bigger (I believe you need lvl 3), it can deal damage twice to the same person if they are standing between sections of her wall. This means support anivia can get off all 3 spellthief procs if she positions her wall correctly (2 on the adc, one on the support), dealing 30 extra magic damage.

I don't like the idea of being able to cast spells without effect. It's already frustrating enough when Yasuo's wind wall or Braum's unbreakable negates a spell of yours, but at least there's counterplay through positioning; having a spell go on cooldown and have no effect just doesn't feel good (anti-fun, if I may be so bold).

Reflex flashes and dashes aren't bad for the game - they're often not the best way to use them, and they already have the cost of putting that spell on cooldown.

Hyrum GraffMay 27, 20142 votes

I have a couple concerns about this kind of CC:

Most players reflexively use their escape when they're in a bad situation. Locking can create an annoying space where you don't actually want to use your escape, but you do, reflexively, and die for it.
The more extreme version of 1: If it's not really clear that you're locked, you might waste your escape without knowing you're locked, even when you would have saved your dash had you known.
A continuation of 2: What do you do if you try to dash the second that 'locked' wears off, but you time it wrong and dash too early? I just don't think this is a healthy mechanic (there's very little skill - only reflexes - in being able to dash the second the 'locked' indicator disappears, unless you're given ample warning that 'locked' is about to end).
Perhaps most importantly, the way you describe 'locked,' it seems like Anivia's wall would lock any nearby opponents. However, this is really counter-intuitive. If Anivia walls off my escape, that shouldn't affect my ability to dash away from her wall. Or toward her wall, either. The only thing I could really see it affecting would be stopping people from dashing through it; but we can already dash through normal terrain in LoL, so I don't think making Anivia's wall impassable is a good solution, either. The only implementation I can think of that might work is silencing all allies and enemies who are close to the wall, but this brings on a whole ton of issues.
I have no clue what the technical issues to implementing a new form of cc like this would be, but it seems like it would take a lot of work, to create what I think is a flawed type of CC.

I think the solution to updating champs who have been outclassed by the mobility creep, isn't to provide them with an anti-mobility mechanic (stuns, roots, and silences already do this), but to give their existing kits a little attention. In the case of Anivia/J4, I think this means penalizing anyone (friend or foe, perhaps) who dashes over their wall. (note, this would not penalize Ez, Kass, etc; they shift, not dash).

JackYAquaMay 27, 20141 votes

Yeah, but Trundle is a melee duelist and Jarven and Anivia aren't ...

Hyrum GraffMay 27, 20141 votes

I'm unsure what part of my post you're replying to.

JackYAquaMay 27, 20141 votes

Trundle needs his pillar, Jarven and Anivia don't.

Hyrum GraffMay 28, 20142 votes

Trundle needs his pillar

Ok sure.

Jarven and Anivia don't

I'll disagree with you here:

JarvanIV : What's a champ without an ult?

Anivia : She's completely immobile (no mobility skills, and slow as heck); without her wall, Anivia would be hard pressed to survive, unless you gave her some other CC/mobility. However, I feel that the wall is core to Anivia's identity - without it, she's not the same champ.

MrBuffingtonMay 29, 20141 votes

Both these champions have an AOE slow that can work really well with these abilities anyways. For J4, drop your slow as soon as you cataclysm, gives you bonus stats and slows pretty much everyone around you anyways. For Anivia, put your ult on top of your wall, or around your wall, just for that extra zoning potential. I think you just have to be smarter with how you use these abilities, rather than mindlessly spamming walls or cataclysms whenever you get the chance. For J4, EQ onto their carries, if they dash away (which many do, since no squishy wants to be face first with a J4), then cataclysm. Anivia can slow and stun multiple targets too, use those to your advantage. And if they flash, hey, you just burned their flash. Your abilities are on a much shorter cooldown. Just kill them later.

I do agree that more and more champions seem to be getting dash abilities (freaking Lucian with slow removal too), though.