Wards should work like recall (crosspost)

BedderDanu·Sep 18, 2013·4 votes·1,921 views

Abstract

It's a common point of contention that not only do supports get the least amount of gold, they must spend it on consumable vision because of the innate power it provides, at a cost of the permanent growth non-consumable items provide.

After seeing the latest patch notes attempt to address this problem, I think that there is a better, albeit more drastic, way of accomplishing the same effect that could also permanently solve the support "starved for gold" problem. Change wards to be an innate spell like "Recall"

Implementation

Cribbing from the current setup of sightstone, we create a new ability on all champions

Ward

Place a ward at the target location by expending a charge.
Charges refresh upon returning to base.
You may only have so many Active Wards at a time.
Charges: a/x
Active Wards: b/y

Note, I'm going to use x/y to represent the total number of charges vs the number of wards that can be active at a time. so 2/1 means you have 2 total charges, but can only have 1 ward active at a time.

In this setup, you can't buy wards at all, of any kind. This completely removes the gold sink from the support/jungle class. Instead, each champion starts the game with 1/1 and the ward skill (or 2/1 if that winds up working better, but I would think that would be too much free vision early game).

There are still ward producing items, but they are updated to reflect the new skill.

Unique: Ward Refresh - Grants an additional 4 ward charges and 2 additional Active Wards.

This would update your ward skill to 5/3

One potential update would be to the power of the explorer ward skill, which may instead grant you 1 additional ward charge. Of course, this could remain unchanged and still work perfectly fine.

Clairvoyance would work fine as it currently is as well, but it could also be tied into the new ward system in multiple ways.

Reveal target location for 5 seconds. Restore all ward charges

or

Place a ward at target location. Consumes 1 ward charge and the ward takes an Active Ward slot.

These, of course, are examples, and no attempt has been made to truly balance the setup. Note that skill number 2 is supposed to be to ward what teleport is to recall.

The next biggest change would be to Oracles Elixir. While it should be able to be left alone and function just fine, I think the new system allows for a much better implementation that greatly increases the engagement of warding.

Oracles Elixir

Sightstone (950g) + Emblem of Valor (650g) + 400g = 2000g

Health: 200
Armor: 20
Unique Aura: Nearby allied champions gain 10 health per 5 seconds
Unique Passive: Ward Refresh - Grants an additional 4 ward charges and 2 additional Active Wards.
Unique Active: Vision Wards - For the next minute all wards placed are vision wards that reveal invisible units. If an enemy ward is destroyed within range of your vision ward, the active time extends 15 seconds and the cooldown is reduced by 30 seconds. 4 minute cooldown.

Note: The ability is only up for a minute, but the wards placed last for a full Vision Ward duration.

This would really add a significant reward to hunting down enemy wards, as well as would increase the value in placing wards in unique spots.

Conclusion

I know the above numbers aren't balanced yet, but changes on this scale would need play testing to really get right. However, this gives Riot more levers to balance support items with. Supports get to feel increasing power through buying ward items, instead of consumable vision with minimal power increase. Vision becomes easier to balance (for example, start the game with 3/1, but wards only last for 1 minute, for example). And finally, all items finally fill the same purpose: increasing power and utility as a reward for smart play.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3648348

12 Comments

The Lord ImpalerSep 21, 20133 votes

Good to see we finally got a Red to reply, but I must say I'm sad to see Xelnath make the same mistake that half the people in GD make when he reflexively assumes this is a simple proposal for MORE vision, nothing could be further from the truth, vision can go up or down in quantity independently of this kind of redesign (BedderDanu you really need to emphasis this more as it is just so easy for people to miss this point).

What we have here is a splitting of one 'balancing handle' into two. With Consumable wards all that you can change is the cost of vision duration with currently runs at 1 gold per ~9 million unit-area-seconds ((1110^2) x PI x 180 / 75). With Danu's system you for the first time have a cost to the maximum vision coverage at any one time and it should be a High cost. And a separate cost to maintaining duration of vision now arises from the maximum number of charges, the cost to increase that maximum and the opportunity cost of returning to base to refill them.

Let me post some of my item ideas from the original thread. The goal is to force an equal amount of personal growth to occur when people spec into vision, to make items desirable to more roles and generally have more cool effects trigger around warding. Sight-stone's effects are an un-named unique and every ward increasing effect on items it builds into are likewise un-named so you can't stack sight-stone but you can upgrade it and then buy another to enjoy both effects.

Sight-stone: 375 gold, Increases placed ward limit and ward charges by 1 each.

Odin's Eye: Sight-stone + Amplifying Tomb + 300 gold (1110 total cost), +25 AP, Increases place ward limit by 1 and ward charges by 2, Unique Passive: Each of your placed wards gives you +5 AP

Mace of a thousand eyes: Avarice Blade + Sight-stone + Pickaxe + 650 gold (2700 total cost), +45 damage, +30% Critical Strike chance, Increases placed ward limit by 1 and ward charges by 3, Avarice: gain an additional 3 gold on kills, Insight: gain an additional 2 ward charges on champion kills and 1 on assists or upon destroying an enemy ward.

Rock of Ages: Philo-stone + sight-stone + 250 gold (total 1325): Increases maximum placed wards by 1 and maximum ward charges by 1. Grants nearby allied champions +7 health regeneration and +9 mana regeneration per 5 seconds. Unique: Every 90 seconds you gain 1 ward charge.

Bejeweled Vestments: Spectre's Cowl + Catalytic Protector + Sight-stone + Cloth Armor + 400 gold (total cost 3675): +450 health, +300 mana, +45 Magic Resistance, +25 Armor. Increases placed ward limit by 1 and ward charge limit by 1. Unique Passive: Upon taking damage from an enemy champion you regain 30% the health lost over 10 seconds plus an equal amount of mana, +10% per active ward (Maximum 60%). UNIQUE Passive - Valor's Reward: Upon leveling up, restores 1 ward charge, 150 Health and 200 Mana over 8 seconds.

Doc ThulhuSep 21, 20131 votes

The problem I am seeing with this kind of set up is you are removing pink wards from the game. Also this kind of ward set up does not allow for some types of warding game play.

I for one will purchase a sight stone and use it only to ward immediately around where I am. I purchase only pinks for placement on things I would like to always keep an eye on (Dragon,baron,buffs,etc.). This type of game play allows me to keep good ward coverage for my team in team fights while still giving the important things the coverage they need.

The problem I have with the ward limit idea is that I have found myself with upwards of 8 wards down at any one time. I am not seeing any room for this type of game play in this proposal.

I am also not sure that these items address one of the main problems with playing support. The lack of CS resulting in the lack of gold. Sure it would be great to spend 3k+ on an item with great stats and ward abilities but how long will I have to save up on the supports' meager gold supply to get them?

The Lord ImpalerSep 21, 20133 votes

Actually I should have mentioned, I have a simple fix for pink wards, BedderDanu is unfortunately not a fan of it and is still pushing his idea of an Oracle redesign and some kind of consumable Clairvoyance item as the only true-sight options.

I would simply allow pink wards by consuming 2 ward charges and counting them double against your maximum ward limit, thus anyone can place a pink ward once they have 2/2. Supports will generally be at 2/2 right at the start of the game from Utility/Support masteries they will take, any anyone else can buy the cheap 375 sight-stone to their as well. This I feel is key for handling some of the stealthy assassins who are countered best with a pink ward.

A big advantage here is that we keep the current counter-warding with pinks and the choice between them but that choice is now made in the field repeatedly and tactically rather then in base in a more passive strategic fashion.

As for Support/Jungler gold starvation, that is a different (but very important) problem, Danu's vision redesign would probably move several thousand more gold into personal growth which is a great start, but at current support gold incomes even 100% of that income in personal growth isn't enough, and I'd say Junglers are combat effective only if they completely neglect warding (and snowball from ganks of course) which is just throwing that burden on the Support which is the problem.

My solution is to create new gold income streams that come through an expanded and redesigned Mastery system. A number of new masteries would be created in a dedicated Support page and a dedicated jungler page which are highly focuses and role specific such that only supports and junglers can efficiently benefit from them. I think around 7 gp10 equivalent NET increase can be squeezed from Masteries for the support which will represent around a 15% income increase. I'll post it in full soon here on these forums.

BedderDanuSep 22, 20132 votes

Hey hey! Glad to see you again.

The story behind the cross post was actually that I wanted to see how a long, well developed idea came across on the new community setup, in addition to competing for views in a somewhat less noisy environment.

Because of this, I basically copied the original verbatim, and then I was going to go back and update it based on the propositions in the thread. However, I actually ran out of room. I couldn't add my "Refinements" section, it seemed to be too many characters in total, and it wouldn't accept it.

I took that as a sign that keeping an update overview in the OP was not the intended use of this community, and so instead decided to "start over"

I didn't expect the Red Response so soon. I failed to plan for success, as it were.

And don't blame him, he has his own thread on the subject. he's probably read a million different "I swear I can fix supports" posts, in and out of the thread. He isn't reading this looking for an answer, he's looking for a feeling of the question the answer is trying to solve.

I also don't blame him for not running the numbers. He's a busy guy. "Giving everyone a free ward" sounds like so much more than simply "Supports are the only ones who ward", even though 5 free wards aren't actually that far off of what we have now.

I do hope he comes back and reads my response. I hope I was clearer there, where I removed all implementation details whatsoever, and tried to get down to "brass tax" in my best designer speak.

Oh, I'm coming around on your idea, and I think I know how to implement it. "Casting ward on an existing ward converts it into a vision ward for it's remaining duration." That takes out the clunky feeling it was giving me, and it allows you to upgrade your allies wards. It also restricts vision even more, if that is desired, which means there is room for more +ward items.

The Lord ImpalerSep 22, 20131 votes

I've been away during a move and just got internet access again. It looks to be at just the right time to inject myself into some pivotal Season 4 discussions too.

I'm still disappointed in the Red, yes I know he has a ton of stuff to read, but half your replies in General Discussion showed more insight. And what are the 'other problems surrounding the system' not covered in the two bullet points he acknowledges as yours? As far as I'm concerned thouse 2 things ARE the core problems with vision and your laser focused on exactly that. His own thread http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41406925#41406925 lays out all the same goals that we have discussed repeatedly, he even points out that wards last too long something we have long recognized and discussed.

Between your vision rework and my Mastery rework were practically spoon-feeding them exactly what they are asking for from Season 4.

Also I think your 'pinking-up' idea is an excellent implementation as it eliminates the need for a second key-binding which I'd always assumed would be necessary, and less bindings means an easier time integrating it and using it. It's also more interactive between players and that's always good, their would need to be some kind of 'fusion distance' that reasonably forgiving so you don't have to click directly on the ward but like horse-shoes and hand grenades, close is good enough.

Am I correct that your assuming the pink only counts as 1 active ward for the original ward placer and the ally (or yourself) that performs the upgrade is only expending an additional charge and dose not suffer any additional consumption of active ward limit? My though had been for pinks to place a higher burden on the active ward limit to keep their maximum number down to half the maximum normal wards.

It gets a bit tricky for both players to have the pink count towards their ward limit because if we use the sight-stone rule that placing a ward when at your current limit destroys your oldest ward, we don't want that to happen (think of the trolling). How about this, every pink ward has 2 life-span timers one carried over from the original ward, one from the upgrade, when either one expires the pink reverts to green and lives out the lifespan of the remaining timer. That also allows us to avoid any mess from people having modified ward durations from Masteries or items, it all just works seamlessly and no one can accidentally or intentionally remove your wards.

BedderDanuSep 22, 20131 votes

...technically, you were not correct. But that's the proper way of implementing my idea, and that's a good implementation of the timer. So lets go with that. :)

To spell it out: we have two resources, active wards, and ward charges. Upgrading the ward uses a charge (or two), but not the limit. so if I upgrade an ally's ward, he still is using his limit, but I've spent my charge.

For right now, lets assume that the new pink ward gains all the benefits of both the original placer and the upgrader. So if I have 10% bonus ward time, and you had 10% bonus ward size, then the final pink lasts 10% longer and is 10% bigger.

RiotXelnathSep 19, 20132 votes

There's probably some value here in making wards more accessible. However, I do not feel that simply adding more vision without addressing the other problems surrounding the system.

I do appreciate your points tho:

Warding is a high demand thing that is often at odds with personal growth
Warding only on the support is too much of a burden

BedderDanuSep 19, 20132 votes

Thanks! It means a lot that you took the time to read this.

When I originally wrote this, it was in the perspective of supports. through the traditional forum thread (linked in the bottom of the main post here) We actually refined the idea quite well. Here is the quick summary:

1) Ward counts aren't actually effected

Under the assumption that a support has sight stone, 1 ward, 1 vision; jungle has 1 ward; and one of the remaining rolls have 1 ward between the three of them, this leads to a total of 8 wards, of which 6 can be out at any time per back. (call this 8/6 in my notation)
The new system has 1 ward and 1 ward charge for free on all rolls, plus support having sight stone. This leads to a total of 9/7 wards. Not really the significant difference that may be expected from "lets give everyone free wards!"

2) This system helps designers most of all

The main problem with wards being purchased from the store is that "consumables feel bad because they go away." In addition, items need to function similarly across all champions, for consistency. By making all the ward items permanent, and rolling wards into a spell, you tackle both problems of vanishing items, and item rigidity.
Now, you can have support tailored items purchasable that grant "+1/+1, wards last 10% longer" in the store. You can start tying in effects into the ward system. Basically, you can give yourselves levers to control wards that don't exist on items without unnecessary burden of knowledge.

3) This system improves consistency and clarity

Gold is rewarded for good play: Killing enemies, taking objectives, making smart purchasing decisions, etc. Gold is used to purchase champion power, enabling better play. All items work within this system (potions function as insurance against enemy good play, and elixirs are like investment) creating a positive feedback loop.
Wards are the only exception. They don't grant power. They grant information. That is powerful, but it isn't the same thing. Wards don't match the rest of the shop.
information is used by all champions, regardless of game time, lane, victory status, etc. It is role agnostic. The only other system in league that functions similarly is Recall.

Hence: Wards should work like recall.

General ElephantSep 21, 20132 votes

I feel that because wards are a benefit, and need a cost associated with that benefit. This is where the current state really hits the nail on the head. To fix issues inherent with this design, I feel like taking a step back and examining whether or not it should have value, because as it stands, it seems to be in the best state it can be without completely overhauling the system. If the system were to be changed, i would like to see it in the form of items with actives that provide different forms of champion detection, not neccessarily vision. Like a "motion sensor" that simply pings when an enemy is in range of it, and would probably have an extended life compared to a ward. I feel like the best way to handle the beast that is the ward, support, and even jungle issue is to create options that take the focus and neccessity away from wards, and spread it across multiple choices.

Right now wards completely monopolize the vision battle, and without a variety of ways to track enemies, there will always be an issue with wards, support, and jungle.

BedderDanuSep 22, 20131 votes

There is still a cost of wards. Directly, there is a resource, so to recover it you have to go back to base.

Indirectly, you are stuck with 5 wards on your side at one time, and no vision wards (at least in the original implementation) without investing in items.

The bonus is, you now have a "vision build" that you can follow, to varying degrees, so the investment in vision never goes away. You spend 500 gold making your vision better, and it's better for the rest of the game.

Doc ThulhuSep 18, 20131 votes

I am not sure granting everyone free vision is the way to solve this problem. Riot really needs to examine the itemization (or lack thereof) of supports and build sightstones into other useful items.

As for elixirs, I feel that they are fine the way they are. They cost enough that the price keeps them from being spammed by everyone while still being easily obtainable by the gold starved support.

I would propose they perhaps the sightstone should build into 2 separate items. One granting the owner HP/MP regen and the other providing gold per second.

WavedashEXSep 19, 20131 votes

A GP10 sightstone would be nice, it'd give even more reason to build one, but which stage would it build out of ruby or regular and would it change too many things?