Looking at Items for Season 4

ProfDrDeath·Oct 25, 2013·6 votes·864 views

What do you guys think are items that should be looked at for season 4? And why should they be looked at?

For me, canditates are:

Atma's Impaler (see first reply)
Banner of Command (Needs to be almost gold-efficient on its own, promoted minion could receive the Valor aura from the Banner bearer as long it is alive, creeps hit by the promoted minion and not killed by another champion could give gold to the Banner bearer)
Blade of the Ruined King (ease of buildpath: Daggers replaced by Recurve Bow)
Ohmwrecker (for one, wrong stat combination for tower diving. Secondly, towers could be made stronger if there was a way to counter them better)
Zhonya's Hourglass (atm, simply too rewarding to build: You don't lose much offensive capability for the amount of defense you get)

35 Comments

G1mm1cKOct 25, 20133 votes

Hourglass really needs to be a "Defensive Item" as indicated.

I think that could easily be solved by the flat AP for the item; as a defensive item, it shouldn't give as much AP as DFG, in my opinion.

Atma's to me looks like it's on Malady road.

BRK, BoC and Ohmwrecker are fine in my opinion, they have more of a niche role but they're all well-balanced and useful for a specific situation or a few specific champions.

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20133 votes

For Hourglass, I'd really like to see them lowering the AP (to maybe 90? Or 80?) and possibly raising the amount of Armor (to 65?), while replacing the NLR with a Blasting Wand and a Cloth Armor.

What do you mean by Malady Road?

Solan StonewhipOct 25, 20132 votes

road to removal

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20131 votes

Guessed so much, but wanted clarification...

However, I don't think so. Fundamentally, that kind of passive is a balancable concept, but the item itself needs some work (as you might see in the respective comment).

Lord Solar BearOct 28, 20131 votes

Agreed. As a person who plays tanks, I don't build it because I don't want crit chance and it doesn't give enough AD for my trouble.

Solan StonewhipOct 25, 20132 votes

i don't think i've seen ohmwrecker or BoC on classic, ever.

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20131 votes

Neither did I...

SizmicOct 25, 20131 votes

I like to use BoC when I"m supporting and there is a tanky jungle like J4 willing to build aegis. The splitpush you get out of the promoted minion is op. I mean if you time it right and pressure anouther lane they usually dont notice the promoted minion until its does some damage.

Solan StonewhipOct 27, 20132 votes

and maybe it will get more play with the new support changes in the new season.

personally atm, i never really build anything passed gp10, sightstone, upgraded boots and occasionally a zeeks or shurelya's. i just splurge on wards and let the jungler by the aegis. vision in many ways is much better than anything else. however, i can see hte merits of promote there. i'll give it a shot, maybe i'll like it too.

FalconPawwwwnchOct 27, 20133 votes

Atma's have 2% scaling again won't be as problematic as it was in season 2 for a few reasons:

Health is a worse stat now in general with %health damages on so many champions and %health damage available to everyone via liandry's/bork

AD got cheaper so the passive's gold worth won't be as high.

I'd honestly upit from 2300 to 2500 and give its scaling back. You won't see people stacking health just for atma's because they'll melt in the current game.

I don't get why Riot is so against giving it its scaling back. So many things have changed since it was strong and at this point the only reason I can think of is because of the whole anti-fighter mentality

Edit: However I will add that the I really like your suggestions for it. Especially the mid tier atma's halberd and sisay's doubleblade

ProfDrDeathOct 28, 20131 votes

Like them too :)

Dunno about Atma's becoming 2% again. I'd rather have some changes balancing the item around the current passive with 1.5%. Might just be me, though.

WbhaugsJan 19, 20141 votes

I feel the whole item needs to be reworked. It seems to be aimed at the tank champions who might want a bit of extra ad. The problem is, they don't want crit chance.

I have a few suggestions for changes.

One- Replace the chain vest with wardens mail, and give it the same passive as the frozen heart, making sure they do not stack over each other.

I do not feel there is enough items with the attack speed slow. I also do not like that if the champion does not use mana, then it is not good to buy the frozen heart, forcing them to buy the randuin's omen. I personally like the frozen heart more, but play a lot of renekton and riven.

Two- Replace the avarice blade with either one long sword, 2 long swords, or a vamp scepter. All of these would be a great change to bring the item up to date with the meta.

The end cost would be either 2140 (one long sword), 2500 (two long swords), or 2580 (vamp scepter. Of course these could be tweaked because of the "frozen heart" passive getting added.

so ending look would be:

Tier Legendary

Stats +50 armor

______ attack damage (depends on change)

Passive Unique: You gain attack damage equal to 1.5% of your maximum health.

Passive Unique: Reduces the attack speed of nearby enemies by 20%. (700 range)

Does this look good? Because i think it would be a good change to update this item to the meta. please feel free to respond!

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20132 votes

Atma's Halberd (1350):

Builds from Chain Vest (720) and Long Sword (400)

Stats:
40 Armor
10 AD

Unique Passive: Strengthened - Gain 1% of your max HP as bonus AD.

Building-block item for AD&Armor.

Atma's Impaler (3100 gold):

Builds from Atma's Halberd (1350), a Cloth Armor (300) and an Avarice Blade (800)

Stats:
60 Armor (1200 gold)
10 AD (400 gold)
20% Crit Chance (1000 gold)

Unique passive: Strengthened - Gain 1.5% of your max HP as bonus AD
Unique active: Impale - Your next basic attack has 50 bonus Armor Penetration (80 for Melee), but cannot critically strike or use a Spellblade proc. 60 seconds cooldown.

Armor&AD-item for auto-attacking bruisers/fighters/tanks.

Sisay's Doubleblade (2900)

Builds from Atma's Halberd (1350), a Dagger (400) and a Pickaxe (875)

Stats:
45 Armor (900 gold)
40 AD (1600 gold)
15% AS (500 gold)

Unique passive: Strengthened - Gain 1% of your max HP as bonus AD
Unique passive: Gather - On ability usage, gains 5% AS and 2% MS. Max 4 stacks, dropping after 3 seconds out of combat (not aa-ing or casting). Max stacks allow you to use Whirlwind.
Unique active: Whirlwind - Ignore unit collision for a few seconds. (30 seconds cooldown)

For the more offensive/ability focused guys. As AD casters, they are still using their auto-attacks a good bit, so the passive and active help with that. And, the item is also supposed to help with defense, which is supposed to allow you to stay in the fight longer without blowing up. How many seconds should the active last?

Smite And GankOct 26, 20131 votes

I believe the active should last for around 5-8 seconds, giving that champion the chance to quickly get through minions to either chase a champion after taking down a turret or just flat out chasing down a champion in general.

ProfDrDeathOct 27, 20131 votes

Sounds good to me. Especially since you can't just use it to initiate...

Solan StonewhipOct 28, 20131 votes

call it a batleth and i'm sold

ProfDrDeathOct 28, 20131 votes

That wasn't what I pictured, but...looks rather awesome.
However, IP reasons.

Solan StonewhipOct 25, 20132 votes

agree about zhonya's i'm not sure how i feel about ohmwrecker, never used it tbh. but i agree with your assessment, but if you buff them too much then that's not good either. maybe add an elixir that temporarily buffs the turret you're next to? i'd be down with that.

would add a use for ohm wrecker. but you don't want to make it absolutely necessary. i can see a lot of problems with that approch.

i never was a fan of promote. maybe it would be cooler if you made the cannon minion into a minion of your own. like tibbers, one you could control? then you could last hit safely. or avoid last hitting for your adc.

i like the idea of having more mid tier items like atma's halberd. but it would have to build into something else other than impaler. i really dislike such items only building into one thing.

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20131 votes

I agree, Ohmwrecker being absolute necessary wouldn't be too great, either. However, if Towers were a bit stronger, it would give the item a good niche. And by a bit stronger, I mean like ramping up harder, so that the stray tower shot is fine, but taking 500 shots in a row is more, more deadly (like, the tower both ramping up in AS and damage over time).

Agree with the Halberd building into something else. People have always asked for something similar to Atma's, but for more ability-focused AD champions. Do you have an idea for that? Ideally, it'd be something with CdR and good, possibly mana regeneration?

Solan StonewhipOct 25, 20131 votes

increasing AS as they hit champs would be good. a kind of compromise between fortify, and easy to implement. maybe increase the damage bonus of repeated target attacks when on champions. i'm not sure if you want to mess with it too much as you could throw the minion hits out of whack. and make it impossible to tower hug and last hit.

i dunno. maybe make it into more of a jungle item? i love sheen because it can build into three different items. and if you added it to this then you could give it some kind of hybrid proc that would make sense.

or you could combine it with glacial shroud to make some kind of thornmail hybrid that would counter bruisers by returning percent of their max health in damage.

i don't know. i leave most of the item building to riot, can't wait to see what S4 item changes we get.

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20131 votes

I'm for not throwing last-hitting under tower out of whack. For that reason, the proposed damage changes would only be in effect against champions.

Combining Atma's Halberd with Sheen could make for an interesting item, kinda flowing together naturally for ability-using characters. On the flip side, a lot of the champions who'd benefit from an AD/Armor building block item don't benefit from AP and/or Mana (Zed, Riven, Rengo, Renekton, Lee Sin (not that that one needs a buff...), Garen).

Thornmail hybrid, I don't really see working out. Thornmail is mainly a counter-item to fast-attacking champions with a lot of Lifesteal and not much HP. Tanks with much higher HP, on the other hand, attack rather slow, reducing the effect of the proc...

I think a nice road could be an item passive that increases AS by a bit on ability use, stacking up a few times.

Solan StonewhipOct 25, 20131 votes

hmmm, i dunno, that's kind of like rageblade and that's another item that's not used very much either.

ProfDrDeathOct 25, 20131 votes

True.

But, then again, Rageblade gives a weird combination of stats.

I have an idea for something, check the post with Atma's Halberd.

SmokingPuffinOct 25, 20132 votes

Void Staff and Last Whisper are too good against targets that are not building resistances.

Riot needs to figure out what they're planning to do with hybrid items like Hextech Gunblade and Guinsoo's Rageblade.

Approximately every support active item needs a look. Shurelia's and Twin Shadows are both in good shape, but the rest are borderline unplayable.

Executioner's Calling needs a build path.

Zok72Oct 26, 20132 votes

The problem with hourglass is that the active is so powerful it ahs to be gated somehow (IE, allowing people to get it by building only low and mid cost items would make it too easy to acquire). Because it is a defensive caster item it needs to have AP on it and because it is powerful even in late game it needs to cost a large amount overall, so the best way to gate access to it is by having a needlessly large rod in the recipe. This means that it has to have a ton of AP on the completed item otherwise the rod in the recipe would seem out of place, and this leads to the problem at hand (namely that it is too strong offensively to justify its great defensive ability). The same set of conditions would be true of quicksilver scimitar if quicksilver sash didn't have the active.

TL,DR: Zhonya's is too good not to cost a ton and has to have a ton of AP because it costs a ton because of build path oddities

As far as banner goes, the active just isn't ever strong enough to warrant using the item so unless its stats are already usable it will never be bought. Furthermore, it has the winmore problem. By the time you buy it, either you opponent is already losing and the extra pressure is negligible, or you're already losing and the pushing won't matter because the opponent can clear it safely without a significant loss of pressure.

Same goes for ohmwrecker (if you can't dive this doesn't add enough to hep, if you can dive you don't need ohmwrecker).

Atma's just seems out of place, another item where the ability's not good enough to make it worth buying unless its stats are already good, but the ability is too good to give out for "free" (IE without factoring it into the cost)

I personally think botrk is in an okay place because the combine of 1000 is an effective gate on how easy it is to buy (it doesn't need another gate in the form of recurve bow.

As for my opinion, I think triforce needs tuning (but no serious work). I also think banshee's veil and spirit visage neeed to be looked at because as it is veil is harder to buy than spirit visage, has worse stats, and the passive isn't strong enough to warrant the increased cost. Maybe make it build out of giants belt instead of ruby crystal, only slightly decrease the combine cost, and give it a larger health pool (to make it more attractive for pure defense while spirit visage is more attractive for CDR/lifesteal, thus making spirit visage better for cho for example while veil is better for maybe amumu)

Sorry for the wall of text.

ProfDrDeathOct 27, 20132 votes

I always treat myself with a good wall of text :)

tLRC QuadraLiftOct 25, 20131 votes

The Death Fire grasp needs a look at since only cost a large rod and fiendish codex. feels like it needs something more then CD and that active, not everyone uses it in mid and usually kinda useless for a lot of AP champs

ProfDrDeathOct 26, 20131 votes

And items being niche is bad how?

DFG is supposed to be one of the strongest offensive AP items, especially for the kind of characters it really synergizes with (bursters like LB, Ahri, Syndra, Gragas).

StealthinessOct 26, 20131 votes

I actually think that BORK and Zhonya's are in good places, though they could maybe use small nerfs.

Spell vamp items could use some work. Riot doesn't want laners building Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, but what else are you supposed to build if you want spell vamp? Only a few champions can use Gunblade, and building Will of the Ancients means giving away a lot of gold to your allies. It would be nice to add an item that primarily provides AP and spell vamp, so that the other items could be balanced around their individual identities.

ProfDrDeathOct 26, 20132 votes

Blade is mostly in a good place, I agree. Changing the Daggers to a Recurve Bow would only serve to make the build path a bit harder, with no stats changed on the final item.

Zhonya's, not so much. With its active, it is mainly supposed to be a defensive item, yet it is also one of the strongest offensive items. Before, items like Abyssal and Atma's were nerfed for that reason...

Spellvamp is kind of difficult. Its effectiveness depends a lot on the factors surrounding it. For example, back in the day when WotA was considered brokenly OP, it had exactly the same build path it has now. What was different was that resistances were stronger, resulting in the effective HP you got back from vamping being much higher.

I Choke HookersOct 26, 20131 votes

BRING BACK FORCE OF NATURE.

ProfDrDeathOct 28, 20131 votes

Will not be possible in its pre-season 3 form...

JackAquaOct 28, 20131 votes

I agree with everything but Hourglass. It's an offense item and always will be. I think it's good that way. Sure 50 Armor is just too much, but it should keep the 120 AP.

ProfDrDeathNov 11, 20131 votes

And what part about it says its role is primarily offensive? Except the 120 AP?