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Item Discussion Poll: Are mage items in a good state?

Pyro·7/20/2014, 10:30:37 PM·4 votes·1,221 views

http://i.imgur.com/qTnNAFg.png

Hello, it's the wall-of-text guy again. You may remember me from supports CDR overload post. This time a quick poll for further research: Are you satisfied with the state of middle lane mage items?

Almost every single game in LCS has the midlaner build looks like this: , aside from few cases like Kassadin, Kayle, TF and Fizz, who all have their individual, flexible builds. The "holy trinity" mage build is so obnoxious because it lacks any serious alternatives:

Athene's is the only midlane Chalice upgrade and Chalice is the best laning item to farm and trade. For most champions, RoA and Morellonomicon aren't good enough. Rabadon's is necessary for the midgame power spike. There is no better item to go "full agression" after Athene's, unless you gamble on killing a single target with DFG (but that works on very few champions like Syndra). Void Staff is the answer to enemies purchasing MR, but works against targets with no MR as well.

Not only does it limit the options of available builds for the popular mages, but it also limits the champion pool. It will always be who utilizes the holy trinity of mage items the best who will get picked.

Example ways to shake things up:

Introduce a Chalice upgrade with AP, but no CDR (or rework Rylai's Crystal Scepter into this).
Rework Void Staff to make it better against targets with high MR and worse against targets with low MR (for example: change passive to 45% penetration on bonus MR).
Introduce a new NLL upgrade with some utility (NLL+Aether Wisp seems neat) that could replace Deathcap in some cases for immobile old-school mages like Malzahar, Cassiopeia and Brand.
Look into Archangel's Staff, Rylai's, RoA and Liandry's Torment and see if any improvements can be done there.

Any feedback is more than welcome and will help me with the next episode of the Item Discussion Series, where I'll post example solutions.

15 Comments

MrBuffington7/20/2014, 11:14:03 PM1 votes

I think I saw LiNK build RoA on Orianna one game. I don't think they won that game, though.

I would greatly appreciate some options in itemization; there are really only two build paths for mid lane mages: VS AP it's the trinity you mentioned, Vs AD you swap out Athenes and Deathcap for Zhonya's and Morellonomicon. I think you're right that a lot of this comes from/causes a lack of diversity in mid lane mages.

zork8247/21/2014, 12:53:46 AM1 votes

It's the same for ADC's. Most of them build BT - IE - PD - LW - BRSK - GA

Stacona7/21/2014, 1:01:53 AM1 votes

Riot gave marksman more build diversity with Statikk Shiv (the superior option for PD), Phantom Dancer, and Ghostblade as that complimentary item, Last Whisper forever alone because of the only majour penetration item in the game, Infinity Edge or Trinity Force as majour damage choices, Blade of the Ruined King, Bloodthirster, and Essence Reaver as lifesteal options--- so Riot has succeeded on granting options and build differences for marksmen... Now during that time they stagnated the mage role into Grail, Deathhat, and Void Staff similar to s1 s2 ie, pd, lw for marksman- what is needed is more items for mages so that mages have more choices of what they want to build and how they want to build and this may just open more mages being played because of new AP/mage focused items Only change i can see for chalice and grail to match tear and archangel would be to remove the MR on chalice/grail and buff both the chalice passive and chalice mana regen and then for grail it will have the better chalice passive obviously and better flat mana regen but also more AP of something like 80AP to compensate for no MR- also chalice price goes down to 700g to match tear's price, grail will probably go down by the same amount in price causing the combine cost to get grail to remain at 900g --- for stats im thinking 10mana regen on chalice and the passive increased to 1.5% increase mana regen for 1% missing mana, grail same passive but with 15 mana regen

Riot tried making last whisper and void staff to work on only bonus armour and mr for pre-season 4, it didnt work out so well they opted out of it, these items need to be increased back to 40% penetration and remove the 2/4/6% physical and magic pen on the offense page- this change may just lead to more customization for masteries like possibly using 21 utility without feeling they are missing out on damage later on

KingSmizzy7/21/2014, 2:32:32 AM1 votes

The thing that annoys me with Magic damage, 120 ap from deathcap which is 40 more stats than youd get for a comparably expensive AD item, not to mention its passive applies to itself meaning you can get 160ap with 1 item.

Ontop of AP items having more AP, MR items have less MR than an armor item has armor. Banshees veil is the Randuins of MR and only has 55 instead of 70. Frozen Gauntlet is usually only bought for the cdr and spellblade but also just randomly has 70 armor.

It just seems like magic damage is easier to purchase and harder to itemize against, making ap toplaners and ap caster supports more effective.

And adding an item like voidstaff on top of that with magic pen boots... why bother building mr, it doesnt do anything anyway.

bzhen09157/21/2014, 2:53:27 AM1 votes

aside from those items, there are still tons of items not being built at all that have ap. like these (remember them?): item 3152 item 3060 item 3056

the other items u mentioned outside of the holy trinity are more champion specific.

but i never see any of these items in any champions (except Vladimir with item 3152 , because spellvamp is absolutely necessary on him ) and Rito needs to balance these items so we could see them again.

ProfDrDeath7/21/2014, 7:20:43 AM1 votes

The problem, as you call it, is more of a symptom of a different kind of thing - the meta.

Just think about it, which champions are the current top-of-the-crop of mid lane? Or, more specifically, which traits do they possess?

Orianna Xerath Ziggs Lulu Syndra

All good siege mages, as they have rather long-ranged AoE spells. Meaning, safe and efficient waveclear, with high sustained mana costs. Range, in itself, is survivability, meaning that they do not itemize for it - allowing them to freely get rid of their mana worries ( item 3174 ) and then buy the big damages ( item 3089 item 3135 ). Sort-of like an ADC.

item 3116 doesn't get build, because most midlaner's spells are AoE. item 3027 doesn't give enough AP, and excess survivability (for the currently prefered mids, at least) item 3040 goes well with , and when one's not prefered, the other isn't, too. Plus, item 3174 gives you enough mana regen to not worry about going OOM on most champions, and there is seldomly a need for a big mana pool. On top of these two, the CdR from Athene's is really beyond valuable. item 3165 is sometimes build instead of . More AP, less mana regen, no MR, good anti-heal passive. item 3157 is still build a lot - it is just not rushed anymore, due to the high ranges of champions. item 3152 Spellvamp is, unfortunately, of bad efficiency for a lot of mages - their spells are, again, AoE, and for mana users, SV is basically just a way to convert mana into HP. item 3100 For AA'ing mages ( TwistedFate ) and more efficient tower-pushing. Works not too well with long spell ranges and lowish AA ranges. item 3151 DoT. Most burst mages don't really like the over-time nature, as it has anti-synergy with their combo. Still, decent against high HP, especially on sustained damage dealers. item 3146 For Hybrids who use their autos a lot. Not for everyone. item 3128 DFG is too short-ranged to have good synergy with most of the top champions. item 3001 Again, the range. Also, not enough slot-efficiency. item 3060 If you really don't worry about mana, you can replace Morellonomicon with this. But then, you should go splitpush, too.

Conclusion AP itemization is mostly in a good spot. Yes, some items could use a few little changes, true, but what leads to the current situation of only seeing a few items a lot, and also their distinct build order, is more of an issue with the meta and the favored champions instead of AP itemization being in a bad spot.

EDIT: Maybe Athene's is still too strong, too. Have it lose some CdR, maybe? Like, 5-10%?

Angry Monster7/21/2014, 7:30:01 AM1 votes

Mages need more choices like people need extra holes in their heads. Things that OP skipped were as top items Zonyas, deathfire. What happened to archangles staff?

merellos is a much better item these days than anthens and cheaper. Liche bane is a must of some APs, tf, zigs, lulu and fiz.

Mentioning 3 items and say that is all their is in the game is dishonest. Hell there is the whole mage tank category that swane and Annie can do.

You have options, stop being meta sheep and you will find them.

Sire Hippington7/21/2014, 9:32:35 AM1 votes

I think the main problem is that athenes is the only item granting sufficient regen for most mages. tear would grant enough, but it's rampup makes u loose out alot of midgame power, wich is where mages usually shine, and it doesn't grant cdr.

I think they should buff athenes manaregen and take away the mana for kill/assist passive, and give that passive to morellonomicon so it can grant enough mana aswell.

Besides that, i think we lack mr+ap and armor/ap items. Abysal is to niche, so the only alternative is athenes. Zhonyas is the only ap+armor item, but it atleast fits every ap-champ.

void/lw is a topic for it's self, as there is no alternative for DDs to the %pen, it'S just way to effecktive and also kinda needed in the lategame.