@Statikk How is that Lulu Analysis Going?

How kind of you, if you are able to see this could you pass this on to ricklessabadon?

http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/RE3YeBzf-ricklessabadon-how-are-those-leblanc-changes-going

a month ago he said that he was thinking of Leblanc changes how are those going out for him?

sheds tear I am eternally grateful Morello :D

You sound like you are reporting to a captain or something :P

Thanks for the prompt response though. It's times like this I remember that most companies don't talk about their game as much as Riot does. You make it sound like it's your job to report back, when really you don't have to at all.

I still haven't gotten an answer; if you wanted to nerf mid lulu but try to leave support lulu intact, why nerf the base damage on an ability that mid lulu maxes second anyway, and therefore gets more benefit from the ratio? I do not understand it.

(I'm also laughing at your insistence that you like people experimenting, but I guess you are at least trying to keep mid and support lulu alive this time, so thanks for improving!)

Thanks for the in-depth reply. Now I understand that Lulu has probably changed to the point of no return, and I'll just have to get over it, but before you go I would like to present an argument for E.

I've noticed a trend lately of Riot making everything a skillshot when they want to introduce "counter play" or "introduce interactivity." but I feel E had that. First, if you used E offensively, you open a window for your opponent to attack you because your defensive shield is now on cooldown. Not only that, but you are forced to get closer to your opponents than you are with Q, making the play even more dangerous, making the player mindful of positioning. Doesn't this follow a similar line of thought to the whismy idea that you're throwing around? The high mana, single target, more danagerous damage incentive of E was it's decent poke damage while having to risk losing her defensive E for a counter engage.

If the balance team wanted to take some damage off of Lulu's E, why not hit the damage AP ratio? That would have hit mid Lulu harder than Support Lulu, and would be in line with the philosophy of wanting Lulu to be about utility instead of damage.

This honestly makes me pretty happy. I tend to agree Lulu's still pretty strong in the bottom lane, and I'm glad y'all are committing to this sort of thing. Though Lulu is a bit obnoxious in solo lanes, I really like the idea that there's finally being an active effort to allow support champions to be balanced for other roles. They do tend to be pretty abusive and some things could stand to be changed if this is poularized (Janna oneshotting every creep wave from like Level 5 onward comes to mind) but it's also something I think a team should be able to invest into. I'm a big fan of champions like Taric or Alistar being able to more comfortably man the toplane someday - it feels a very natural thing for them, perhaps moreso than support.

Isn't its current strength one of the reasons mid lane Lulu (among others) is so strong? By that, I mean that it makes you virtually manaless. On top of this, however, since you're now manaless, it gives you 20% CdR. Meaning, you can spam spells that are supposed to be gated by mana costs and not CD even more, as well as reducing the cooldown on your other abilities drastically.
And on top of that, it gives you good defensive and offensive stats for your match-up.

are some of the most commonly played midlaners. They all rush . before his rework did, too. And sometimes, you even see getting it first. Oh, and mid , too.

So, wouldn't nerfing Athene's mean nerfing mid Lulu, without impacting our suppordle?

I like this direction you are going. It's cool to see champions sometimes see play in a role other than what they were design for, and I think with Lulu it's possible for her to be viable in both. I think this is what I was trying to say in my earlier posts, namely, give her some more decision making, as that's a key aspect of Lulu--her double abilities.

I like your idea for Whimsy, especially since that was the ability that drew me to Lulu in the first place--we need MORE SQUIRRELS! MORE CUPCAKES! MORE DRAGONS AND KITTIES AND SNOWMEN!!!

I don't think lulu mid is that much of a problem in solo q. I rarely see her at the gold level even though she is supposedly OP enough for the pros to be playing her. I did see a support lulu the other day. I think the problem people are having is that even if one role is better for lulu than the other, that doesn't necessarily mean she's trash in the other role.

Secondly, what would happen if you juggled the movespeed bonus on whimsy with the shield on help!pix? Seems to me like it would solve the problem of her zooming in, getting her damage off on one target, and then zooming out right away. Or is this one of those sledghammer changes that will remove her viability in mid that you don't want to do?

Disappointing? I was literally praying for this news! We really don't care if you are torn or not; we, summoners with a demand for high CC + Utility / Moderate Damage mid laners are delighted that you finally understood that you don't need to make specialized champions EVERY SINGLE LAUNCH. Ezreal going from AP to AD (and back to AP in U.R.F. Mode) is not unhealthy, but the opposite! They just need to be balanced, not erased!

Now put your hands to work and please bring my first champion bought back (when I started at LoL in Season 2, my first online game), Janna AP mid, but now with counterplay, tradeoffs and potential to do any other thing than Flash + Ult enemy laner into my turret in laning phase =)

I actually kind of like the way the Whimsy proposition sounds (I probably shouldn't call it a 'change' since nothing's official): It would make sense "I am now a small animal, I expect myself to be very squishy." Of course, if it were to take place, I'd imagine that the slow effect that Enemy-casted Whimsy provides to be nerfed, otherwise, it turns into "I cannot defend myself, cannot run more than two-inches away, and now I'm squishy as jello. This will be a bad 2 seconds for me."

I will say, if we do make changes again to address her power level in Mid Lane, we will most definitely have to compensate her in Bot Lane.

Didn't you guys say pretty much this exact same thing before you nerfed her this last time?

Not trying to call you a liar or anything, but I just feel that you guys should know that (at least for some of us) these sorts of statements have actually become the opposite of reassuring.

There's an unfortunate pattern emerging wherein statements like the one I quoted not only aren't followed through on, but the failure to follow through is always in the worst way possible.

For instance, I now fully expect that mid lane Lulu will get meganerfed in the next 4 months, and support Lulu will receive no compensation whatsoever and become viable only in the eyes of those few fanatics who will vouch for the validity of any champ/role combination.

Haven't been in SR much lately. But Lulu in concept is a lot of what I wanted and lost in Karma's rework. She has a choice between support actions and damage actions with both enemy and ally placement being important.

I'm unsure what exactly made her nonviable but I'm not sure I like the idea of her being focused more as a mid lane champion then a support. I'd contend she offers a unique experience as a support.

1. I think she's kinda viable as a support. Not sure why she isn't played more often, but people better at me at this game would know more than I. I'm going to assume it's the meta; poke is difficult in this environment, with tanky supports being popular and ADCs rushing lifesteal faster than a support can rush a chalice. The whole 'all in and burst at 2' thing might work to her advantage, since she can shield her ADC, but she's squishy, so she can be an easy kill if she gets caught by any of the myriad 'now you are dead' abilities in bot right now.

2. I'd be fine with that, but you don't have a good track record of doing that. That's what was supposed to happen with Zyra, but in reverse. And we all know how much Zyra mid gets played these days.

Cracks Knuckles Sorry if this is going to be a long post, but here we go. First I will answer your questions:

1. Yes, I think Support Lulu is still viable, but more so in competitive play than solo queue. In competitive play, Lulu is often taken for her lane bully power in 2v1 lanes and synergy with Yasuo ult. In solo queue, where these situations are less coordinated, she becomes less powerful. Overall, I think Lulu is still viable as support; HOWEVER, that isn't the issue I think is most important.

The nerfs in 4.5 were supposed to nerf mid Lulu. Yet we can see that she is still a great pick even after her nerfs when playing her mid. The nerfs in 4.5 didn't do their job. What they DID do, was kill off a sub-playstyle of support Lulu which was to max E. Before, it was possible to max E or Q depending on the match up. But now Q is the only choice. I am one of those who preferred maxing E, but I know that's just a sub-playstyle. I do know that many Lulu's picked Q or E to max depending on the situation though.

2. If Lulu suddenly became a mid champion that wouldn't been an issue. It's no so much her lane that I care about, its her playstyle (which, to repeat myself, was E max.)

I believe that you said Statikk that if Lulu was going to be a mid pick, that you wanted her to be picked for her utility and not damage. I think that's a great objective, but I believe it could be handled differently. If Riot wants Lulu to be a utility mid, then nerf her damage ratios, revert her base damage nerf, and fiddle around with the base and ratios of her utility abilities. Taking off a large amount of base damage on an ability mid Lulu never maxed first only hit supports who care far more about base damages.

I was totally on board with Lulu nerfs, I agreed that mid Lulu needed them, I just think it was done the wrong way and it felt quite rushed compared to the care Riot takes when nerfing other champions.

1. While I think Lulu was previously used as a poking support, poke is just not as good as it once was due to the popular "hard engage" strategy. However, I find Lulu has great counter-engage as well. She excels at protecting someone who was caught out or has a terrible time in lane, but she can also turn fights around and be aggressive herself (along with her team). I like playing her with Vayne or Varus, two marksmen who need help to keep safe in lane but also have good aggression potential. Her synergy with other champions that jump into the fray is great--I play with a Morg mid main regularly and it's just a joy for him to dive into a team, be Lulu ulted and then Zhonya's, effectively locking down the enemy for our allies to follow up on. Her great team utility is the main reason I like playing her, but it's also the reason why she is played mid.

2. As I said above, the things I enjoy about her support playstyle are also what make her good mid, so I wouldn't be completely heartbroken if she was played in both. That said, her last nerf sort of hit both roles, and though I still perform fine with her as a support, I'm still wary of support Lulu being too niche. I think retaining her ult feel is most important, but she needs supportive tools for early laning too. Her shield is important for bot lane trades, but also makes her strong mid. What do? I think ultimately, I'm ok with it as long as she still retains her support strengths--I don't want to sacrifice Lulu support just because she's strong mid lane.

I'm not a high-elo player by any stretch and I haven't actually played Lulu in a while, so I don't really have an opinion on #1. Aphromoo played her support in the game CLG won against TSM so she's clearly not so bad that she's unplayable.

As for my opinion about #2, it sounds like you've come to the conclusion that the nature of her kit is simply too effective in a 1v1 matchup, and that it is going to be pretty much impossible to balance her as a support without being overbearing in mid lane, and as such you can't really nerf solo-Lulu without also nerfing support Lulu (outside of a rework).

I'm not one to assume you guys are generally off-base with regards to these sort of things, and I'm not going to play armchair designer and presume that I could do your job better than you guys.

That being said, I really really dislike when support champions move to other lanes. They feel very unsatisfying to play as, and infuriating to play against. Playing a support champion as a mage almost never feels like a risk in a solo lane, and they just win through attrition. In any other situation I can think of, there is a risk-reward tradeoff when you put champions in non-meta lanes (top to jungle and vice versa being the exception). When you put a mage as a support, you generally get a very potent level 6, but give up protection on the ADC. When you put an ADC like Vayne or Quinn top lane, you give up safety. When you run double bruisers bot lane you give up late game power for early game pressure. What exactly do you give up when you put a support champion mid? Technically, I suppose you give up burst, but in some situations even that's arguable. Late game, support champions with solo-lane farm make up for the lack of burst by being incredibly potent in sustained teamfights. They gain a very strong laning phase, and trade burst for sustain power (often times buffing your own ADC as well). That's not a real tradeoff.

So my opinion on #2? I wouldn't like it, but I suppose tough luck for me, since I find it unlikely that my preference is realistically likely given the nature of the game right now.

I don't play Lulu but in versing her my 2c is that I don't like how super safe her E to minion then Q harass is and that it can be very frustrating trying to kill her despite how much poke power she has. I once all in'd her then she shielded, ulti'd, barrier'd, then shielded again, my mind was blown. I don't know if it's a problem with mid lane Lulu or just Lulu in general (it's never fun versing that ulti) but everytime i've seen her in mid as an opponent i've wanted to cry. :(

Hey KillerGecko and Lulu players,

I'd like to start this off with questions for you guys before we discuss what our current take on Lulu is.

1. Do you think Lulu Support is viable? If not, which change made her not viable?

2. What are your thoughts on if Lulu is primarily played as a Mid Lane champion but is still viable as a Bot Lane Support?

1. Yes
2. Yes

Instead of asking about how viable support lulu is, i have better question. Why is AP lulu broken ? A : It is too strong for AOE spell, brings too much utility. 70% slow for 2 seconds. Cooldown : 4.2 seconds W : The speed boost is OP, can reach 80% speed boost for 5 seconds. Cooldown : 7.2 seconds

You see, her slow ups 47% times, speed boost ups 70% times

The current issue is :

1. High AOE dmg shouldnt stick with high slow.
2. High slow skill shouldnt have low cooldown
3. Burst speed buff shouldnt last more than 3 seconds.
4. Champion with many CC shouldnt have AP scale on utility.

Q + R slow is strong enough without any AP, with high AP, it is snare in 5 seconds. Then she only buff W on herself. Enemies will be kited to die.

The best solution is remove scale on her utility. That doesnt hurt support lulu. If you still want to keep her in current state, she will get olafed for sure.

Hey KillerGecko and Lulu players,

I'd like to start this off with questions for you guys before we discuss what our current take on Lulu is.

1. Do you think Lulu Support is viable? If not, which change made her not viable?

2. What are your thoughts on if Lulu is primarily played as a Mid Lane champion but is still viable as a Bot Lane Support?

If Lulu is played in the 0CS bot position there is nothing she can do better than mid Lulu, but a lot that she can do worse. So unless that would change (idea here) I don't like it when a champion is viable in the 0CS bot position and mid lane, because if played bot it feels like a lower version of that champion.

In other words: There is no advantage in having less gold/exp and champions designed for that position should have stronger kits that compensate the lack of gold/exp. To make sure they don't get the best of both worlds (stronger kit and solo lane gold/exp) they need to be viable only in the 0CS position. Luckily I feel that new support champions are exactly designed that way, like Thresh and Braum.

I'm very glad you're taking the time to get player feedback on this :)

1. There are very few champion/role combinations that are truly hopeless. Support Lulu might be viable under the right circumstances, but that does not mean her current state is healthy.

2. I'd be happy with multi-role viability if I was confident it could be pulled off. Unfortunately, I really can't forsee this going any other way than the extinction of support Lulu.

Personally I believe wiping out support Lulu would be very bad news for at least a substantial subset of players. Since this last pre-season Lulu has sort of been the last of the squishy caster-type supports still standing. If she loses viability as a support then the balance team will have effectively wiped out an entire class of character from viability, and fulfilled some of the raving doomsday prophecies some of the players were making last year.

imo lulu support started going downhill when her ability to shield minions was removed. it was great to be able to block that one or two extra turret hits on the minion and get a little more time pushing the tower before the wave dies.

I main support and mid but i originally picked up lulu as a support, so i would be quite disappointed to see her be primarily a mid. she has so much team utility that i feel like its a waste to have her solo lane