Topic of "Old School Mages" from Statikk's thread and thoughts on how to fix them

roroer·Jul 23, 2014·14 votes·1,372 views

Hello there fellow summoners! Since I never got to post this in the Statikk Thread (I didn't get to it before it ended), I decided to post it here since this is the only other place I know that discusses it. I have thought of some ways to fix this problem of "mobility over AoE" in the mid lane meta discussed in Statikk's thread on balance, and think some might make it so that AoE teamfight mages like and have a chance in the meta where it is all based around who can get to dragon the quickest or gank bot lane the most times.

Have an alternate form of a defensive mage item for mid laners. Currently, the only defensive items on APs are Banshee's Veil , and Zhonya's Hourglass . Both are good, but no mage rushes Banshee's in mid lane, and Zhonya's is an item used as more of a self peel from AD assassins diving onto you before you can use your combos. So to fix this, there could be an item that is a Mercurial Scimitar for mages, but instead of a simple cleanse + movement speed, it could make it so you are immune to CC for a short duration (1.5 seconds or so), BUT only allowing you to cast abilities (so no auto attacking), so marksmen won't pick it up and become even bigger of a threat. This would allow champions with combos such as Brand or Malzahar to get their combo off since they don't have a support to guard them 24/7 like marksmans. They need some personal defensive items while they get their damage off, and something like this would be a great way to make them able to contribute to fights before getting killed. How it is now though is if someone does pick a champion like this, they are instantly focused out of fights in a matter of seconds with no chance of survival other than Zhonya's, which doesn't allow them to use their combos. It could also give some mana regen, which would fix another problem that these mages have currently, which is a severe mana problem. This item could possibly build out of Chalice & Quick Silver Sash.
Buffing Banner of Command to make it a more viable item. This item, if balanced around a more current mid lane item, could make it so that "old school mages" could cause mobile mid laners like Yasuo or Ahri to be punished for being mobile around the map by pressuring their lane hard. Currently this item just doesn't work at all in the meta, but if it were reworked, I feel like this item that is based around buffing your minions to allow sieges to be easier could be very good, even in late game for those final pushes onto the nexus turrets. I don't know exactly how to change it, but something maybe like increasing nearby minion's armor/ attack speed while giving mana regen and ap/ slight cdr (unlike now where it's just 20% cdr + 80 ap). Or possibly even having a new active where it gives nearby minions truesight, allowing old school mages to defend themselves better from stealth champions like Rengar or Evelynn . This is just a thought for the remake, and you can have a completely different idea for this item, but currently this item has a good concept, but not good execution.
Make Cleanse more viable. I haven't seen this summoner spell used in a long time, and I really enjoy its idea, but heal just outclasses it in every way (MS + total mitigation of the damage). If you were to make it so that it would give movement speed like heal, I think this spell would be a lot more viable to pick up. Another possible change would be removing the Initial CC clear on it, and making it just 1 second of CC immunity. This would make using it take much more skill, and could be used as a preemptive summoner spell used right before a champion uses a combo/ channeled ability like ultimate. This would also make some marksmen that also have a "combo" like Miss Fortune or Graves more viable aswell. This would also make for more diverse picking in summoner spells among heroes instead of champions having the exact 2 summoner spells every game (currently + on every carry). This would add a different playstyle based on your summoner spells, where is a much more defensive summoner spell, while would offer a slightly more aggressive play style but still acting as a defensive tool, and take some skill on timing to use but be much more useful if used in the right situations. The reason Cleanse isn't picked currently is due to it only removing CC on you. You still take the damage, and you have to be CC'd before you can use it, meaning you still got stopped temporarily. Yes, it does have the 65% tenacity, but you still are getting CC'd in it, meaning you still got slowed down in your attempt to escape, or your channeled ability is still interrupted. While just makes it so that if you do get stunned, all the damage you take is completely mitigated in lane, and you just run away with your increased movement speed and avoid the rest of their damage. Right now Carries just have 2 get out of jail free cards. BUT if the change where would prevent CC happening to you for 1 second, but not remove CC on you were to happen, timing of this skill would be crucial, and could get you out of situations where even the slightest stop in your movement means instant death. It would also double as an offensive skill, where you can pop it right as the enemy team shoots off their CC to pull back from the engage your team is about to make. With this change there would also be plenty of counterplay. Since the Initial CC removal from it would be gone, if someone with cleanse were to get CC'd by surprise, they wouldn't be able to get out of it, and could just get CC chained until they are dead. So now you may be wondering "how does this affect the old school mages"? Currently, the reason these mages don't work is because they aren't mobile enough to not get caught or to roam into other lanes like more popular mages, but the new cleanse would help them deal with the problem of their lack of mobility, and make it so 1 stun doesn't mean the end for you. I know this change might be a bit too powerful, but without ever trying it, you won't know if it is truly game breaking or not. If Riot thinks this idea is a little too farfetched and gamebreaking, then atleast give the movement speed does.

Thanks for reading, and hope any of this helps :)

EDIT: If 1. were to be added, these are some thoughts on making it a balanced item and not completely game changing.

Make it share a cooldown with so people wouldn't just stack these two to be almost invulnerable.If this were not implemented, then make it have a long cooldown so using this would be a big deal, and not just something you use every single fight (120-180 ish).
Make the final piece of it have a large cost, so people would have to think about whether to farm up one of these or to play it safe and go for a more defensive .

22 Comments

ProfDrDeathJul 24, 201411 votes

Katarina Fiddlesticks Nunu Anivia and Akali Kassadin Leblanc Fizz :
"Let's talk more about that first idea of yours..."

Seriously, item based CC immunity is a bad idea for ADs already...and now you suggest it for APs, too? You realize that any kind of CC immunity is like an assassin's wet dream?

Sneak DogJul 24, 20147 votes

I agree, CC-immunity items would nerf the immobile casters by buffing the mobile melee assassins who mainly get shut down by cc, allowing them to kill immobile casters at ease. Isn't that quite counterproductive?

Earl EulrichJul 25, 20144 votes

totally agree, you really cannot buff immobile champions by making the only counter to mobility more ineffective.

And I for one think that many of the "oldschool" casters are actually really strong currently. The only thing they need is proper initiation...so maybe "buffs" should focus on making (hard)initiation more accessible, as it is really limited to very few champions like J4 and Malph currently - maybe even removing the crucible (and the goddamn blackshield - any designer please just rewatch the alliance vs fnatic match from yesterday to see how the shield alone nullified every attempt from fnatic to start a fight on their terms completely, winning the game for alliance all by it´s own) from the game again, as it really is a way bigger boon for mobile-champs as it is for immobile ones...if your initiation get´s counter with a mobile team it´s no biggy, you´ll just try again to flank 10sec later. With an immobile team you might never get in such a good position again. Also, if you release someone like ez from a cc he can step away and will be save - while removing cc from malzahar still leaves him on the same spot, and probably won´t save him.

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20141 votes

Agree, a buff to hard initiation and most of all cc-heavy frontlines(tankjunglers...) would already help alot, as those mages would then have someon else to peel for them and the cc would help them alot to land their combos

maybe with the uprise of mao and gragas top we can also see more play from midrange mages

sYe21ajYHkJul 25, 20141 votes

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. It's possible to pull off, it just requires careful balancing. Let's say you want to make some kind of CC immunity item.

Example CC Item -No stats -Unique Active: Makes your champion immune to CC effects for 1.5 seconds. (60 second cooldown) -2000g

Active effects can be prices extremely high and offer little stats to balance out their strength. This item wouldn't be purchased by all that many champions because they can't afford to spend 2000g and come up with no stats to show for it. Sure, you'll be able to stick on a target, but you'll be blown up INSTANTLY, and you won't deal that much damage to them. This item would only really be purchased by champs who don't need any stats to do damage, don't care all that much about survivability, and need help sticking on another champion.

No effect is "too broken" or "too powerful" because we can always raise the costs and downsides associated with it. This example is obviously extreme, but you can do the same thing with slightly more stats (200 HP or something random, etc.) or slightly lower costs. Eventually there will be a tipping point where champs who really want it can afford to go for it, and other champs don't receive the needed benefits from it to bother. Effects like CC immunity aren't strong on every champ, you'll see just how important it is to someone when you make it come at a steep price.

Phoenix Kotori Jul 24, 20147 votes

I am sorry CC immunity on any item is a horrible idea.

Mages already have item 3157 to avoid plenty of CC with skillful usage, a mage with this item on top of that would be completely game breaking disables exist for a reason unstoppable champ ults like Karthus Fiddlesticks Katarina Velkoz Nunu would be hilariously OP.

The other changes, you can't give out CC immunity on anything you're gravely underestimating how powerful it is. Though summoner 1 does needs buffs or changes, CC immunity though isn't the answer.

roroerJul 24, 20144 votes

Notice how none of those champions are picked competitively on a regular basis. Why? due to their ultimates being able to be canceled with such ease. It wouldn't make them overpowered, it would make them actually viable picks. Most of those champions would have longer ultimates than the duration of said item, still allowing counterplay to them. Also, CC immunity doesn't mean invulnerability, they can still die. If this were also an item, it would obviously need to be a pricey pickup due to its very powerful active, and have a long enough cooldown to not make them unstoppable.

Cleanse on the other hand, I do agree if it were to just have 1 second of CC immunity it would be slightly overpowered, but I also said that even just giving it the movement speed that heal currently has it would be much more viable.

Also, Karthus ultimate is used half the time while in the safety of your base or while in his passive. Don't know how that would make him broken.

Phoenix Kotori Jul 24, 20143 votes

Nunu is a jungler that quite a few competitive teams like to play.

Karthus sees picks off and on in pro play, especially as a counter to Yasuo .

Velkoz has seen some support play, though isn't seen a lot lately.

Fiddlesticks was a super common support pick before some of his nerfs.

And CC immunity for even part of their ultimates removes a large amount of counter play and would be chained with Morgana or Kayle to prevent any CC from breaking their ults with this item.

roroerJul 24, 20143 votes

For one, if someone were to pick up this item, there would still be counterplay in order to prevent the ability, it would just make a smaller window. This would require more skill on the person trying to cancel it, but it wouldn't be impossible to land a stun in a 2 second window compared to a 3 second window. This item, on activation, would cancel channeled abilities, so you would have to use it at the beginning instead of right when you get CC'd

As for the Morgana/Kayle part, this would make for a combo that would be powerful, but in competitive you can pick around team comps like this by doing things like picking poke comps, pick comps or even split push comps. That would be the point of this item though, so that large teamfight comps with mages like Velkoz could actually have a scary teamfight, instead of teamfights being decided on whether or not Elise stuns Velkoz right as he ults. It would allow the old school AP mids to actually contribute to fights without getting blown of the face of the earth in a heartbeat.

The main idea behind an item like this is so that the "Old School Mages" ( Cassiopeia Karthus Xerath Viktor etc) would actually have a role in the current meta. The only other options I have heard of was reworking item 3151 & item 3116 , which is also another way that would make these mages have a larger teamfight contribution.

Also, A support Fiddlesticks would often not have enough ap to make this item a worthwhile pickup, along with a support Velkoz . They are picked in the support roles often due to their annoying harras or their above average CC.

PyroJul 24, 20143 votes

Hi there. I'm the author of the question that Stattik replied to in his AMA.

The only way that CC immunity thing could work is if it anchored you in place, Xerath's Locus of Power - style.
Banner of Command suffers from lack of mana regen to back up the CDR. It's a horrible item to rush in mid lane.
Cleanse (and QSS) are more an ADC mechanic than midlane - but yeah, Cleanse could use some love. I liked the idea they had to give it a small knockback in close range.

I've posted a wall of text that gives more insight into the issue and, hopefully, starts a better discussion. You've merely listed a bunch of changes without going into their possible implications.

xWildflowerJul 23, 20142 votes

Cleanse gives 65% tenacity for 3 seconds after using it if you didn't know

roroerJul 23, 20142 votes

Yes I do know, but you can still be stunned with 65% tenacity, which could interupt channels like Malzahar ulti.

PhoenixUnrealJul 23, 20142 votes

No gargoyle love :(

The most nerfed champion sits and waits Galio

roroerJul 23, 20143 votes

The idea of a new AP from number 1 would be an extremely powerful item on Galio . His ultimate would no longer be able to get stopped from something like udyr Udyr in bear form, and giving him some delicious MR :)

PhoenixUnrealJul 23, 20141 votes

Oh man would it ever. People would once again learn to be afraid of Galio with his summoner 4 ready.

PhoenixUnrealJul 23, 20142 votes

Also, I had this of a change to Galio's E. Instead of casting the speed boost in front of him, what if he dashed that distance and left it behind him?

One possible negative effect would be giving him too much mobility/engage potential for an AP mid.

Earl EulrichJul 25, 20142 votes

can´t do that...e->r would be utterly broken, the flashults are already gamechanging, allowing him to dash without a summoner would just make him alistar 2.0, having a sort of malph-ult combo without being balanced around it (w->q hadn´t been the original plan for alistar, and they really had to nerf him severely to make him alright despite the permanent hard-engage threat).

PharrøwJul 24, 20142 votes

I think I've blabbed on the boards long enough about this, but I would love for a tweaked item 3170 to hit SR.

It'd bring a whole lot of old and immobile champs up to speed.

Like, (and I'll add the somewhat mobile ones/mobile ones here, too...)

Amumu Chogath Diana Mordekaiser Elise Galio Gragas Lissandra Malphite Maokai Nautilus Nunu Ryze Sejuani Singed Skarner Swain Zac Velkoz

My only fear is that the tweak aren't enough and that some champs will become OP with it.

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20142 votes

I don't think it's possible to buff midrange-mages with itemchanges or summoner changes, as there will always be anotherclass abuseing those items, pushing those midrange mages away. Just like what happend with the try of buffing ad-casters/assasins with an spellvamp/ad item.

Those champions sadly have an outdated kit that doesn't work to well in the current enviroment cause of how the game developt The lack the save range of ziggs,lux,xerath and other longranged mages, the mobillity of mage/assasin hybrids like ahrie or lissandra and the survivabillity of supportive mages like orianna or lux(thx to their shields).

They rely on comboing skillshots or channle skills to deal their damage, and if they miss one spell the combo gets interupted and a huge loss of damage or cc comes with it(like brand not getting his 2sec stun, anivia not getting double damage for E). They also have loose selfpeal and a rather low range for that, so the are incredible vulnerable if their combo fails. With the current state of mobillity creep, those combos can be avoided rather easily, and it's even more easy to punish the midrange-mage afterwards. however, pure buffs like faster casts/skillshots, or more mobillity on those champs wpuld probably make them op, as theri damage and cc potential usually is insane.

I think most of them need some smaller changes to their kit that make them less hard-countered by mobillity while reciving a small buff to there own mobillity, either bound to an abillity(e.g malzahars E granting ms if it affeckts an enemy champ), or simply more base ms, but they need to loose some damage and cc to compensate.

roroerJul 25, 20142 votes

Apparently this post made it to PotD when I deleted it since everyone thought they were bad ideas, so I'm just going to say my final words about this whole topic in this comment before it goes away.

These were all just ideas I had thought up while looking at the post and weren't meant to be the end all best ways to fix this problems, just a unique way of looking at the problem at hand. Many problems have more than one way to solve, and I know this might not be the most effective way to solve this problem, but I was hoping to just spark some interesting questions with this.

I had been playing other mobas and noticed that league didn't have any CC immunity except for Morgana shield, while the others had it show up more often. This being one of the many reasons why she is so oftenly picked in any level of play, and think she wouldn't be such a threat if this CC immunity was in different areas other than the bot lane on one specific champion. Then after seeing the Statikk post I thought that maybe the immobile mages/carries aren't as effective in this game as they are in others is because they have no reliable peel through things not in their kit. This lead to me brainstorming of an item that would solve a problem they alone would have so that assassins wouldn't pick this item up and be even more powerful- Chalice, which would solve a lot of the mages mana problems, a dissarm so that carries wouldn't abuse it, and a reliable self peel / protection while they do their usually close to mid range combos/channels.

One last thing aswell, 1 second of CC immunity compared to Morgana Shield duration is close to nothing if it is not broken (i believe it is 5 seconds or so), and also it having a very minute cooldown compared to the item I had thought up or the cooldown of cleanse.

InsaneSamuraiJul 25, 20142 votes

The problem with adding a mobility type item for the non-mobile champs is it'd make the champs who are already mobile even harder to deal with.

StephenizgodJul 25, 20141 votes

I disagree with CC immunity... there doesnt need to be even more ways to counter Malzahars ultimate... the damn thing gets cancelled by almost any form of hard CC cast at the same time because it is so slow. I think the problem is just mobile champs scale way to high with skill where as immobile mages are always really strong regardless of skill, to a maximum limit. This limit is surpassed by most mobile champs just due to their mobility anyways, add in player skill and there is no contest regardless of how good you are with that immobile mage (if you are about equal skill with your champs that is). Obviously if you are much better with your champ then you most likely will win, i have beaten plenty of people with Malz because i know his kit well, but someone who is just as good as me has the advantage with a mobile champ with their kit or they push me to my turret and roam and Malz is too slow to follow.

If we could figure out a way to make immobility scale with skill (beyond just hitting your spells right), specially on champs like Brand and Malz, then we would see a rise in "old school" mages as you get higher in skill.