New Rengar and Skarner's artificial life line, and why this should not be the case.

bBogXxE4eM·Apr 26, 2014·15 votes·2,253 views

Hello, I'm A bouncy Furret- a Diamond 5 Oceanic player who loves talking game design and a long time Rengar addict.

Both the Skarner and Rengar reworks have been failures. I don't mean that in an insulting way, simply put- they have failed to fit in with the League as we know it, the fix to both of them lies in their numbers and functionality.

"I wish I could be more..."

I'll come right out with it if it's not already clear from my name- I absolutely adored old Rengar, and I like new Rengar as well but it's just so lacking and uninteresting. New Rengar jumps into a fight and does what bruisers do well- only not as well as some other bruisers. New Rengar can also-- uh... New Rengar can't do anything else.

"But, but but Rengar's win rate is looking pretty good after the buffs!"

Yeah, do you know why? Numbers. New Rengar has the numbers of a top tier champion now- so why the hell doesn't he have a top tier win rate?

With the rework, Rengar found a new home in the land of bruisers, as opposed to the land of assassins who can do too much. This means Rengar has to compete with bruisers- he has to act like one and do it well.

Shyvana is probably the most comparable champion to new Rengar- they have a very similar function, only Shyvana does more and Shyvana does it better.

I'll break down both of these champions and pull out why I think this.

(ferocity effects in italics)

-Situational gap closer, in the right circumstances it can potentially be overbearing however usually it either doesn't come into play or doesn't bring too big of an impact.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage. Cannot hit towers.

-On next hit attack that deals even more bonus damage and grants an AS and AD buff. Cannot hit towers.

-AR/MR steroid, small magic damage AoE. Not enough damage to be considerable wave clear with too long a cooldown.

-AR/MR steroid, magic damage AoE, a heal that can be summarised as 'meh' unless you're below 20% hp. Not enough damage to be considerable wave clear with too long a cooldown.

-1000 range heavy slow linear single target skill shot- moves very slowly.

-1000 range snare linear single target skill shot- moves very slowly.

-Stealth with a large range reveal that is lost upon exiting stealth. Situational movement speed buff during stealth with a large burst of speed upon exiting stealth. Generates ferocity to allow for use of empowered abilities. Rengar is almost entirely dependent on this ability to be relevant in fights- has a massive cooldown for the majority of the game. It also alerts targets that Rengar is lurking.

(Dragon form effects in italics)

-Permanent AR/MR steroid- doubles during Dragon Form.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage and applies on hit effects twice. Can damage towers.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage and applies on hit effects twice in an AoE. Can damage towers.

-Potentially high magic damage PBAoE that increases Shyvana's movement speed.

-Potentially high magic damage AoE that increases Shyvana's movement speed, leaves a burning trail of continual magic damage.

-Linear magic damage AoE skillshot- leaves a debuff that shreds %hp per auto attack to targets hit.

-Cone magic damage AoE skillshot- leaves a debuff that shreds %hp per auto attack to targets hit.

-1000 range free target gap closer. Decent flat magic damage and knock back. Cooldown is reduced / duration is extended by auto attacking. Worst case scenario, this ability has 100/50/34 second cooldown- lower than Rengar's ult at all ranks. This ability is not required for Shyvana to fight effectively, though it is very beneficial.

Maybe you've already seen it- two things should stick out at you. Rengar is much more ability dependent than Shyvana and Shyvana's abilities allow for a less specific playstyle.

As it stands, Shyvana deals more consistent mixed damage to various targets (tanks, squishies etc), is more consistently mobile, is more consistently tanky- she's just more consistent overall. Rengar might bring a little more utility than her, but that's a really big price to pay for a champion that only has one function. Since Rengar's mobility is tied to environment and/or a massive cooldown- his viability as a melee all in champion is also dodgy, and he's now so level dependent he's almost useless if he falls behind.

But Shyvana's only got an MS boost pre-6, and her ult isn't always off cooldown- what's the difference? She can be shut down as well but Shyvana can split push effectively. She has wave clear, escape and tower taking potential. Rengar's wave clear is garbage (unless you waste your ferocity to make it half-decent, but leaving him vulnerable), Rengar's tower taking potential hinges on him being able to empowered Q a minion under tower (which will only ever happen by a timing coincidence or you've been left by that tower for way too long, this also leaves him vulnerable again) and his escape is tied to a massive cooldown that he is dependent on to fight effectively with- not to mention it's got bigger weaknesses than a standard distance crosser.

I could rattle on and on for hours about why Rengar is currently a lesser pick to other bruisers, notably Shyvana but I'll cut myself short to say this: Rengar needs the tools to keep up with the champions he now competes with, and it's a very simple fix.

What I suggest:

-Rengar's Q can now hit towers, but the bonus base damage is not applied (the bonus scaling damage is however).

-Rengar's empowered Q can now hit towers, but the bonus base damage is not applied (the bonus scaling damage is, and the AD and AS buff is granted).

-Rengar's Q now increases his attack speed by 20/25/30/35/40%, CANNOT STACK WITH THE BUFF FROM EMPOWERED Q. There, now Rengar has real jungle clear times as well as higher dueling potential and slightly better tower taking ability.

-Rengar's E missile speed is increased.

-Rengar's R cooldown is half refunded if Rengar dies before entering stealth. <--- has always been a massive frustrating issue with Rengar that can make or break his early / mid game.

If these changes prove too much, what do we do then? The answer is simple. We nerf W and give even more power to other parts of Rengar's kit- there is absolutely no reason as to why Rengar's W chews up that much of his power budget.

"Please don't touch my shinies..."

I have a lot less to say about new Skarner than I did about new Rengar, so I'll keep it short and sweet.

Edit: The newly suggested passive change to Skarner will definitely help solve this problem.

New Skarner had his power as a champion toned down dramatically- but was given the bandaid fix of numbers. So what does that mean? It means Skarner's balance hinges on items more so than most other champions. What happens if Riot decides to buff/nerf new Skarner's core items? His win rate will change much more dramatically than other champions who use the same items. He's like the ADC of bruisers in terms of item effectiveness and synergy and bruisers are known for loving problematic items- this does not bode well for the scorpion's future and leaves much to question about Scruffy's decisions. I have never been much of a Skarner player, so I'll leave potential changes to those better versed in the art of playing the League's only brackern.

I'd very much like to see solid changes made to both of these champions to remedy this issue.

This is about my first attempt at ever using a reddit style format to post something, so excuse any issues you might come across please.

47 Comments

alfavhunterApr 26, 20147 votes

I support this

HawkefireApr 27, 20145 votes

Since it is clear that you guys aren't really reading the posts on the forum, I shall simply place what I said here (Caution: Long Read):

EDIT: This was a reply to someone who was asking why Rengar was not viable at high elo

Sites that have statistics like winrate take a LONG time to update. Now then, allow me to explain how high elo ****s on him.

First and foremost, here are the reasons why old Rengar was picked in high elo:

He was one of the best splitpushers in the game due to the rate that he could take down towers and he could do it safely (DISCLAIMERI personally felt his splitpushing was too strong, but having it removed was really a bad move and removed an important part of his old playstyle. They should have just made his Q deal reduced damage to towers or something, wouldn't be that hard to program...then again considering he was released with so many bugs that were even pointed out on the PBE, some of those bugs that he STILL has......you get the point)
Could delete a squishy EXTREMELY quickly if the enemy is unable to peel him, or failed to properly ward their jungle. (He was almost never built full tank in high elo, however they would sometimes build him bruiser)

Now then, why is Rengar picked in high elo now?

He excels at nothing compared to any other champion and as such is only picked by diehard Rengar fans, or as a trollpick.

Why?

First and foremost, his splitpushing ability was removed. Boom, he was now replaced by his primary competitor Shyvanna on nearly every splitpushing teamcomp (which were the only teamcomps that would even consider running Rengar).

Second: He can no longer reliably delete an ADC very quickly. If he his built full assassin, the ADC WILL win the duel...every....single...time. Why? Rengar cannot engage on the ADC with his ult, because the moment he gets within warning range of the ADC, the ADC will place a pink ward down and begin chunking his HP (which will KILL Assassin Rengar, and it will bring bruiser Rengar down to at least 3/4 HP if they are on equal terms). Now then the moment Rengar jumps on the ADC, the ADC will use a self-peel move (such as Caitlyns net shot) and continue kiting Rengar, and eventually killing him because Rengar has no true gap close.

Third: One of his semi-viable builds (aka: Full Tank) was absolutely ruined by this rework simply because he doesn't deal enough damage to make it considerable. Not only that but he cannot initiate the fight with his ult either because the warning will cause the entire enemy team to disengage (or worse, place a pink ward down and simply kill him)).

To break this down further:

Assassin Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true assassin. Not only do they have a better chance of coming back than Rengar does, but they also often have backup roles that they can fall back to. Not only that, but the ones that have a hard time coming back are also a lot safer then Rengar at all stages of play.

Bruiser Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true bruiser. Need damage, engage, early control? Take Lee. Need splitpush, tank, and damage? Take Shyvanna. These are just a few of the more common examples. However: The recent buffs MIGHT make this build semi-viable, but at the complete cost of all other playstyles....

Tank Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true tank. They all have better initiate than he does, and they all have more CC than he does and thus can fulfill the role. Not only that, but they can often deal more damage than Rengar can...which is downright amusing if you think about it.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

This guy gets it <3

Thorne LionsbaneMay 2, 20141 votes

wait didn't they change the warning to only if they see rengar ult?, or has that not gone live yet?

FelaerisMay 2, 20141 votes

It has gone live.

the Anarchit3chtApr 26, 20144 votes

Rengar can go invis and pop up on someone with enough damage to Nuke them dead before they can react. Shyvana can't go invisible. Or, essentially the same thing if you pop out of a bush at them. I don't see an issue here other than the fact that you want to be able to faceroll on people without staying true to the sneaky nature of Rengar.

bBogXxE4eMApr 26, 20144 votes

Actually Rengar's instant damage potential got destroyed.

Think what you will- I want Rengar to be balanced, as it stands there is no reason to pick him in a competitive environment.

the Anarchit3chtApr 26, 20144 votes

I can show you multiple videos of the New Rengar doing exactly what you said he can no longer do.

alfavhunterApr 26, 20143 votes

I can show you multiple videos of the New Rengar doing exactly what you said he can no longer do. You do realize IE and SotD is a gimmick build that is more for Lola than actual power

I could kill an adc as ad raka with IE and SotD + spells in a sec or two, it's a gimmick build, that said rengar needs actual tuning to his capabilities

the Anarchit3chtApr 27, 20142 votes

Any ADC that is going to let you close enough when you activate SoTD is a dead man anyway no matter who you are if you are building like that. Plus that power only lasts for like 3 seconds or 3 critical strikes and then becomes entirely negligent in terms of the benefits that it provides. Rengar's power comes from his kit, not an item and is therefore ready to melt faces 100% of the time. I never denied that Rengar needs some tuning, merely that the OP is blasting him way out of the water--he's not as weak as the OP makes him out to be, you just have to play a little more carefully.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

You're blinded by his numbers.

"But, but but Rengar's win rate is looking pretty good after the buffs!" Yeah, do you know why? Numbers. New Rengar has the numbers of a top tier champion now- so why the hell doesn't he have a top tier win rate?

Riot cannot buff his numbers anymore, they simply can't- he'll be way too good at the only thing he does. His numbers are borderline absurd as they are. His W can give up to 105 AR/MR (5 champions + a big minion), usually hanging around 60-75 against 2-3 targets though. He can keep this up for 16 seconds (triple W from ult, and then you get the buff long enough for a fourth cast assuming you dump no more ferocity to keep it longer) in a fight if you mash out Ws and empowered Ws. That's stupid strong meatwalling potential. His damage is half decent over a long period of time with just Qs and he is potentially very difficult to peel if you're in a brush dense area.

They simply cannot make him more powerful through numbers. He'd be an unstoppable monster in brush dense areas and he'd be far too crushing if he's ahead.

They have to dip into his power budget to increase his functionality- the reason his win rate is lacking despite his numbers is because he cannot function like other bruisers can and his one trick pony nature means when he's shut down, he stays shut down.

It's not interesting to play a champion like that- there's very little dynamic to him compared to others.

He's also not worth a spot in a competitive environment. Why would you take a one trick pony that can't even outshine more versatile champions at what he's best at?

the Anarchit3chtApr 27, 20142 votes

I never mentioned numbers, not even once. His KIT allows him to remain strong. I'm sorry that you can't face dive an enemy team anymore and come out alive with a double kill.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

No need to be snarky, just trying to have a discussion here.

His kit is strong, but its functionality is lacking. He is a one trick pony who doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table that someone else doesn't bring and more.

There is no reason to pick him.

Vellich0rApr 28, 20142 votes

I can show you multiple videos of AD Alistar killing an adc in around three auto attacks essentially popping up on someone and nuking them before they can react, yet I have never heard someone call him a champion that has instant damage potential, or that is designed to instantly delete carries. You can show a video of any champion on the game doing what he said rengar can't do, yet that does not make the statement any less true for those champions. Rengar right now is not in any way viable at any role because there are 12 different champions for every role he can take on who do the job 12 times better.

the Anarchit3chtApr 27, 20142 votes

Can't reply to your other posts for some reason, so I'll reply here. The reason I was "snarky" is because all you are saying is that you want to be able to play Rengar... without playing Rengar. If you don't like his kit, then don't play him? I don't know what other advice to offer you. You're saying he is bad, but he's not. You just have to be more tactical with him. Is that really so hard to do? Is it really so hard to pick and choose your fights as opposed to just being able to jump on anyone and kill them? In case you haven't noticed, Riot is trying to MOVE AWAY FROM points like that. They are trying to have all champions with a level of counterplay, and before this, Rengar had very little counter play. Again, I'm sorry that you can't dive an enemy team and come out alive with a double. I don't know what else to offer you in terms of a solution but to find another champ if you dislike his kit so much. You say it's ineffective, but that is honestly just you being stubborn for no good reason other than losing the ability to play a champion who had relatively little counter play.

EDIT: Oh, and I think I should clarify. I don't disagree with the changes you are suggesting--it's simpy that Rengar is no way near as bad as you are making him out to be.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

You're not reading what I'm posting and continually typing the same thing over again which didn't even stand true pre-rework.

I like new Rengar- I could like new Rengar just as much as old Rengar if Riot gave him a reason to be picked.

New Rengar has no reason to be picked- he is at a severe functionality disadvantage to other champions in his role.

He is a one trick pony, this should not be the case, this is my attempt to have this remedied.

I'm not sure what else there is to say to you.

the Anarchit3chtApr 27, 20142 votes

Then I apologize for not understanding you. Please, explain to me how he is a "one-trick" pony. You have stealth as well as good sustain for the amount of damage you put out. You can melt someone from stealth, or you can stand up and go toes with them due to the steroids that his skills apply. Making him a heavy threat even when no brush is around--and a total monster when it is.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

Don't look at the specifics of Rengar's play pattern.

Look at the wider picture of Rengar's play patterns.

Rengar cannot do anything meaningful outside of all inning for fights / skirmishes.

the Anarchit3chtApr 27, 20141 votes

I beg to differ. He dominates in most 1v1 fights if you know what you are doing, and he DOMINATES hard. He has potential to pick off a low health enemy and get away so long as he isn't behind his whole team. The ability to dominate so hard in this way gives him ample to knock down turrets, as does the AS steroid from an empowered Q. Sure, he might not be able to actually HIT the turret with it, but the AS that it gives him provides him with more than ample turret-downing power.

EDIT: You know, though. I will concede. You are at a much higher level of play than I am, so it is wholly reasonable that lower Elo players simply don't know how to handle Rengar as well as the Diamond players you're up against.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20141 votes

He's a fairly strong duelist if he's ahead or doing alright.

The thing lower elo players fail to realise is that the first 20 odd minutes of a game, Rengar is incredibly vulnerable and if he falls behind there is no coming back.

You keep highlighting his 1v1 and fight potential, what happens if Rengar can't 1v1 or join team fights?

New Rengar has nothing in that situation. If you go to splitpush, you'll just get out pushed by the enemy top laner, or worse- their ADC. You'll just be funneling more gold and XP into the enemy team at great risk for yourself.

FreljordanApr 27, 20142 votes

you obviously havent played a lot of rengar both before and after the changes :O

lightdragoon88Apr 27, 20143 votes

I wouldn't mind an increase on HP regen.

Now for Q I say a bleed.

For enpowered Q the speed makes sense as he kind-of in a "rawr rage mode" kind of thing.

But for both Q, he jamming a giant knife into a target and then releasing it with blood spraying out all over the place.

How about some damage over time for that? Or (since it usually looking like it hitting the enemy arm) the enemy hit get a attack speed or attack damage reduction for a second or 2? From the animation stand point it would make more sense.

....at least for me.

LouisLeGrosApr 26, 20142 votes

I don't know if you saw the Skarner follow up thread but they are looking into changing his passive and that will certainly tackle part of his being the "ADC of bruisers in terms of item effectiveness and synergy."

bBogXxE4eMApr 26, 20141 votes

Just took a look into it- it's definitely what I was looking for and will fix him up nicely.

Thanks.

Kyleman143Apr 26, 20142 votes

TBH i am not a skarner player either but i gotta say after the rework he became an amazing champion and way better than his original form IMHO... He is so strong now even early without items so idk how you can say he has no strength early the only reason he isnt seen more is because of the fact that he is neither an FF jungler or an early ganking jungler... Which both have been the meta since the skarner rework... early ganking junglers first... but seriously his early clear times are good and his late game jungle clear times are god tier but again this is my opinion as i have played him only twice when he was free after the rework carried both my games with over 15 kills...

Vellich0rApr 28, 20141 votes

Skarner is fun to play and has the potential to do well, but that does not make him a good or strong champion in his current state. He has several fundemental issues in his current state. First, he has no gap closer: this means he often has no chance of reaching his target because he is too busy being cc'ed into nonexistence. Second, he has no sticking power, all he has is a decent slow and a ramping speed boost that can be removed with one auto attack from an adc. Third, he has almost zero early ganking power because without items he can't do the damage necessary to KILL a laner before they can escape. He is great with items to make him stick better and do more damage, but before that point he is far too weak.

Kyleman143Apr 28, 20141 votes

I did point out that his early game is weak... But once you have boots and iceborn gauntlet on him you really have all the power you need there to get off successful ganks post 6 and before that point all you do is farm jungle camps for a bit but truly he is stronger than people give him credit for it just takes a couple items for him to get to a good point

blackraven04Apr 26, 20142 votes

rengar is better imo been winning moar games and carring hard a lot compared to b4

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20142 votes

New Rengar can do less than before. He's a one trick pony who isn't even close to being the best at what he does.

VolieApr 27, 20142 votes

I also support this, rengar is meh now. he cna tbe an assasin and cant be a tank. jungling is hard without speed boost so only choice is top lane. and u get destroyed there most of the time.

XanruApr 27, 20142 votes

I'm pretty sure I said this before, but I think W should be replaced entirely. Most preferably with a mobility option, his ult and E should be altered as well.

As it stands Rengar feels like he needs some cohesion and a better direction, because at the moment it feels like his engage and thought pattern is that of an assassin, his fight pattern is that of a bruiser, and his build pattern is that of a tank, but he doesn't have the elements required to make any of them truly work, but has all the flaws that generally cause champs to fail in those roles. It's confusing and super freaking ugly.

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20143 votes

Agreed entirely.

His W has ALWAYS been this biggest issue with his kit, and I'd gladly trade it for anything at all.

One of the things that turned me off the rework initially was how much emphasis Scruffy put into his W and how it chokes up his power budget.

I was thinking on what Rengar could have in place of it and I think a heavy bleed effect would be nice, though kind of odd.

It'd be a good way for Rengar to deal more damage in a fairer window if you put some of his damage power into a DoT.

The only issue then is his heal- but does he need it? I wouldn't say so. I'd rather have a more powerful assassin than one who's gimped at every stage of the game just because there's potential for him to instantly heal 1/4 of his hp (not to mention the stupidly out of place AR/MR buff).

Rengar makes more sense thematically as an assassin, but there's no chance we'll even be considered for another rework for the next 5 years at the least :F (unless we somehow get Riot to change Rengar's W similar to what they're doing to Skarner's passive, but an active ability like that has so much more of an effect on gameplay than a passive).

XanruApr 27, 20141 votes

Granted I like assassins and assassin Rengar, I don't dislike the direction they were trying to go with him, but I believe he'd be better off as this thing they've coined, "light fighter". In the same vein as a champ like Riven, instead of a straight bruiser.

I was thinking something along the lines of:

Q: Savagery

-Reduce Scaling to 100% ad

-grants 20/25/30/35/40% attack speed

-Works on towers

-Bonus damage not applied to towers

-change to a flat 5 second cd at all ranks

Emp Q:

-Scale back attack speed to match with current rank amount when stacked or simply make it so that it doesn't stack with basic Q.

-Either Doesn't work on towers, or bonus damage does not apply to towers

-Scale back ratio to 120%

This will allow you to take towers, but not an at obnoxious rate, while also not leaving you completely vulnerable while trying to take one. Also helps fix his early jungling issue.

W: Hunter's Stride -Remove ar/mr buff

-Changed to a 1 second movement speed buff of X/X/X/X/X%

-Ignores unit collision for the duration

-Deals X/X/X/X/X +60% bonus ad physical damage to all minion/monsters passed through, and to the first champ passed through. The movement speed and damage effect are lost when Rengar attacks/leaps/uses Q.

-Activation removes slows/snares

-This move speed bonus is reduced in combat.

W: -Remove healing and ar/mr buff

-Increase buff to 2 seconds

-bonus damage scales with level at a 60% bonus ad ratio

-If used with a leap the next auto deals flat bonus damage, scales with level.

This will give him better mobility options in a fight while removing the heavy balancing issue that was massive sustain and defense when combined with high damage. Even moreso with the changes I'll list later.

E: Hunter's Pouch/The Grab Bag

-This skill has a charge based system.

-Pressing E primes the skill, effects change based on which skill key is pressed next.

-Q: Adds a bleed effect for X/X/X/X/X +30% ad physical damage, doesn't work with empowered Q

-W: Throws down a small field of spikes immediately dealing X/X/X/X/X +30% ad magic damage

-E: Throws a bola that slows upon impact(same/similar to current)

-This skill has 2 charges

Emp E: -Short channel that refills the pouch

This was mostly to fulfill my own vanity, as but it also increases his general utility and damage in a fight.

R: Thrill of the Hunt/Hunter's Domain

-Remove stealth upon activation

-For the next 10 seconds Rengar gets a large move speed buff, generates 1 ferocity per second, and reveals enemies, neutral creeps, and enemy wards in a X/X/X area around him.

-For the duration his other skills gain bonus effects that scale with the level of the ultimate.

-Q: Strikes twice dealing 30/40/50% of Q damage the bleed from EQ only applies on the second hit.

-Emp Q: Gains a missing health modifier

-W: Gains stealth for the duration

-Emp W: Same as above

-E: Different effects

EQ: Remains the same.

EW: spike field applies slow

EE: Upon hitting a target, pressing E again allows for Rengar to leap to his  target, can only do so if he's in leap range.

-Move speed bonus is reduced in combat

Granted this may need a lot of number tweaks, I still think it's more cohesive overall compared to what we currently have.

FelaerisApr 27, 20142 votes

Current Rengar requires multiple uses of empowered bola to kill targets. Empowered Q feels useless by comparison

Solution(s): Add more utility to Empowered Q

Allow Rengar to leap on next Auto Attack
Add Missing/Max %HP damage
Bonus effect on low HP targets TBD.

Why allow Rengar another leap? Risk vs Reward. Do you leap onto the fleeing ADC with Emp Q or do you hard snare him with a netted bola and give the team a chance to catch up? This also allows Rengar the ability to escape from combat through creative use of wards and the jungle creeps much as Amumu Akali Diana Irelia MasterYi Maokai Pantheon XinZhao

Why the Execute effect? Empowered Q the damage is, frankly, rather lacking in the current state. If I decide to go Emp Q over Emp E I want a better return than watching them flash away--especially if the target is already below half HP when I use the Emp Q.

Anybody else have thoughts on this? Would the execute effect or the leap be fine on their own?

Tobasco da GamaApr 27, 20141 votes

I like this idea better than a lot of other suggestions. Rengar having a ton of up-front burst is unhealthy, but the execute mechanic shifts his burst power toward the end of a fight. It also allows him to deal good damage while building tanky.

You'd probably have to remove a little something off the existing Emp-Q for balance reasons, though. Maybe the bonus AD? That would encourage Rengar to time the use of his Emp-Q well to secure the kill.

FelaerisMay 1, 20141 votes

Another part that really bothers me with the current 'bruiser' mindset is that he lacks a hard stun/interrupt that many other bruisers do without any kind of significant bonus for the trade off. It may seem like a minor grievance, but a hard snare is no consolation when Katarina is melting his face.

At least the execute/leap would let him kill her if she shunpo's while low which she often does. It's not the same as an interrupt, but it's something.

Really, what does Rengar gain for his lack of a stun? It's certainly not an escape. Even Evelynn can escape with her speed buff and mobility cleanse like Lucian .

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20141 votes

I suggested the leap on empowered E before the rework as a thing that could give him more power, given the other functionality of his kit now it would be really broken, even if it was limited to empowered E.

I don't think making it an execute is the right decision either. It's a long ranged CC effect- it'll feel bad to use early in a fight and if Rengar tries to execute you later but falls just shy of the kill, you're CCed and can't escape anyways.

I'm not too certain he really needs more damage, he needs it shifted around to make a bit more sense and once again his W is disgustingly strong. He's more of a mess than he was originally, but hey at least he has 'counter play' now.

Sire HippingtonApr 26, 20141 votes

What i would like to see is an as-buff back on Q paired with a small ms-buff(like 7/9/11/13/15%) to increase his early clears/trades and give him a bit more stickyness that he realy lacks outside of brushes I think the as-buff should stack with the empowered I don't realy think his Q should hit towers, i'd rather see other champs loosing the abillity to kill towers that fast aswell...Towers are still to weak imo. if he would be to strong with as+ms on Q, rather decrease the basedmg on it.

bBogXxE4eMApr 26, 20141 votes

Then he'd be far too sticky in brush-dense areas.

Towers being the way they are right now, they're one of the reasons games can be stalled to 40+ minutes so easily. The outer towers drop quite easily, but inhib towers are near impossible to take down with any form of defence from the enemy team. It's one of the reasons why the big top laners spend so long splitpushing, since they are a real threat to your inner towers.

OaklenApr 27, 20141 votes

As much as I dislike both Champions I have to agree, why would I pick Rengar if Shy is open? She can split push, spearhead into my team and not made of tissue paper.

VorastraApr 27, 20141 votes

I agree in the sense that new rengar is subpar to every other champions in the current top\jungle meta.

Am not sure of the changes i would make... i would return Q to its previous form, nerf tower power only, clean up W power, i belive the 50% increase is just promoting suicide, make E at least faster than trowing a doughnut.

And i would get the old ulti back, exept with the speed changes... hunting grants extra speed made sense.

Rengar needs basily a new rework, to "work"

Trinket is worthless, and i would change that ofc... if only not just to give the khazix the huge huge huge advantage of a kitty treasure goblin during the "quest"

VorastraApr 27, 20141 votes

What i am sure about is that rengar now, is just godawful and whoever reworked him couldnt really have been a rengar fan.

Riot belives rengar is now "healthy" i belive he has ebola

Rengar should be his mirror

The Predatar

AND IMPORTANT, REALLY IMPORTANT

when i see high elo players max W to lasthit in toplane since rengar cannot trade.. and run around tower for 30 min yelling to lasthit not using the fancy weapon even once, its fucking sad.

What is the point in being a badass headhunter if you cant even hit people in fear of getting pounded to the ground

It looks STUPID, rengar feels wrong.. looks wrong...

bBogXxE4eMApr 27, 20141 votes

Scruffy wasn't a Rengar player, this is known :/

Yeah, his W is by far his strongest ability because of how ridiculous the AR/MR buff is on it, though I'd still max Q for faster ferocity = more empowered W = maybe Rengar has a chance at lane sustain.

Hyrum GraffApr 28, 20141 votes

Suggestion to fix rengar's ult (a slight buff, IMO): In stealth, remove the 'notification that rengar is nearby'. When rengar decides to leave stealth by attacking someone, he takes .5 seconds (or maybe 1 second) to 'ready himself' before he jumps on them. In this time, rengar is rooted (But still invisible). This "readying" can only be activated within the range that you can currently jump on someone from, but rengar can jump any distance to them. As soon as rengar starts 'readying' himself, an exclamation point, visible to rengar's allies and enemies, appears over the head of the target rengar is about to jump on. Now rengar's ult has some counterplay (you have warning that rengar is coming, and you know who he's going to jump on), but he can also use his stealth defensively, more effectively.

bBogXxE4eMApr 28, 20142 votes

I'd much rather the Nocturne approach, where everyone on the map is told straight away, but nobody knows who he's coming for.

In teamfights, well yeah he's coming for everyone so you can be prepared but the ! is too much during the laning phase. Come late game the ! may as well not exist with the amount of speed he has.

Odious OmenApr 28, 20141 votes

The new rework is cool i guess. But it makes me upset, he's always kind of been a dissapointment anyways. Before and after he always fell off late game because his kit and damage weren't quite keeping up with Assassin's/Tanks. His bonetooth is supposed to upgrade his abilities but seeing as the only time you have bushes really is in the jungle, would make him good for nothing but counter attacking, Counter jungle tactics. He needs a complete rework and rethink. While still keeping his playstyle and fitting his lore. Imo bonetooth should do some of the things you guys want done to these abilities. Such as the Leap after activating Q should be something after 5+ kills. Get aswell with that bonetooth should do something similar to Viktor's special item. except with attack speed or AD, we don't need the trinket stuff. He can buy wards, whilst the support can supply the team's red trinket. He's got a lot of work to be done to bring him back to the rift with fear. I support the topic.