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New Rengar and Skarner's artificial life line, and why this should not be the case.

bBogXxE4eM·4/26/2014, 4:40:11 PM·15 votes·2,253 views

Hello, I'm A bouncy Furret- a Diamond 5 Oceanic player who loves talking game design and a long time Rengar addict.

Both the Skarner and Rengar reworks have been failures. I don't mean that in an insulting way, simply put- they have failed to fit in with the League as we know it, the fix to both of them lies in their numbers and functionality.

Rengar "I wish I could be more..."

I'll come right out with it if it's not already clear from my name- I absolutely adored old Rengar, and I like new Rengar as well but it's just so lacking and uninteresting. New Rengar jumps into a fight and does what bruisers do well- only not as well as some other bruisers. New Rengar can also-- uh... New Rengar can't do anything else.

"But, but but Rengar's win rate is looking pretty good after the buffs!"

Yeah, do you know why? Numbers. New Rengar has the numbers of a top tier champion now- so why the hell doesn't he have a top tier win rate?

With the rework, Rengar found a new home in the land of bruisers, as opposed to the land of assassins who can do too much. This means Rengar has to compete with bruisers- he has to act like one and do it well.

Shyvana is probably the most comparable champion to new Rengar- they have a very similar function, only Shyvana does more and Shyvana does it better.

I'll break down both of these champions and pull out why I think this.

Rengar (ferocity effects in italics)

-Situational gap closer, in the right circumstances it can potentially be overbearing however usually it either doesn't come into play or doesn't bring too big of an impact.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage. Cannot hit towers.

-On next hit attack that deals even more bonus damage and grants an AS and AD buff. Cannot hit towers.

-AR/MR steroid, small magic damage AoE. Not enough damage to be considerable wave clear with too long a cooldown.

-AR/MR steroid, magic damage AoE, a heal that can be summarised as 'meh' unless you're below 20% hp. Not enough damage to be considerable wave clear with too long a cooldown.

-1000 range heavy slow linear single target skill shot- moves very slowly.

-1000 range snare linear single target skill shot- moves very slowly.

-Stealth with a large range reveal that is lost upon exiting stealth. Situational movement speed buff during stealth with a large burst of speed upon exiting stealth. Generates ferocity to allow for use of empowered abilities. Rengar is almost entirely dependent on this ability to be relevant in fights- has a massive cooldown for the majority of the game. It also alerts targets that Rengar is lurking.

Shyvana (Dragon form effects in italics)

-Permanent AR/MR steroid- doubles during Dragon Form.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage and applies on hit effects twice. Can damage towers.

-On next hit attack that deals bonus damage and applies on hit effects twice in an AoE. Can damage towers.

-Potentially high magic damage PBAoE that increases Shyvana's movement speed.

-Potentially high magic damage AoE that increases Shyvana's movement speed, leaves a burning trail of continual magic damage.

-Linear magic damage AoE skillshot- leaves a debuff that shreds %hp per auto attack to targets hit.

-Cone magic damage AoE skillshot- leaves a debuff that shreds %hp per auto attack to targets hit.

-1000 range free target gap closer. Decent flat magic damage and knock back. Cooldown is reduced / duration is extended by auto attacking. Worst case scenario, this ability has 100/50/34 second cooldown- lower than Rengar's ult at all ranks. This ability is not required for Shyvana to fight effectively, though it is very beneficial.

Maybe you've already seen it- two things should stick out at you. Rengar is much more ability dependent than Shyvana and Shyvana's abilities allow for a less specific playstyle.

As it stands, Shyvana deals more consistent mixed damage to various targets (tanks, squishies etc), is more consistently mobile, is more consistently tanky- she's just more consistent overall. Rengar might bring a little more utility than her, but that's a really big price to pay for a champion that only has one function. Since Rengar's mobility is tied to environment and/or a massive cooldown- his viability as a melee all in champion is also dodgy, and he's now so level dependent he's almost useless if he falls behind.

But Shyvana's only got an MS boost pre-6, and her ult isn't always off cooldown- what's the difference? She can be shut down as well but Shyvana can split push effectively. She has wave clear, escape and tower taking potential. Rengar's wave clear is garbage (unless you waste your ferocity to make it half-decent, but leaving him vulnerable), Rengar's tower taking potential hinges on him being able to empowered Q a minion under tower (which will only ever happen by a timing coincidence or you've been left by that tower for way too long, this also leaves him vulnerable again) and his escape is tied to a massive cooldown that he is dependent on to fight effectively with- not to mention it's got bigger weaknesses than a standard distance crosser.

I could rattle on and on for hours about why Rengar is currently a lesser pick to other bruisers, notably Shyvana but I'll cut myself short to say this: Rengar needs the tools to keep up with the champions he now competes with, and it's a very simple fix.

What I suggest:

-Rengar's Q can now hit towers, but the bonus base damage is not applied (the bonus scaling damage is however).

-Rengar's empowered Q can now hit towers, but the bonus base damage is not applied (the bonus scaling damage is, and the AD and AS buff is granted).

-Rengar's Q now increases his attack speed by 20/25/30/35/40%, CANNOT STACK WITH THE BUFF FROM EMPOWERED Q. There, now Rengar has real jungle clear times as well as higher dueling potential and slightly better tower taking ability.

-Rengar's E missile speed is increased.

-Rengar's R cooldown is half refunded if Rengar dies before entering stealth. <--- has always been a massive frustrating issue with Rengar that can make or break his early / mid game.

If these changes prove too much, what do we do then? The answer is simple. We nerf W and give even more power to other parts of Rengar's kit- there is absolutely no reason as to why Rengar's W chews up that much of his power budget.

Skarner "Please don't touch my shinies..."

I have a lot less to say about new Skarner than I did about new Rengar, so I'll keep it short and sweet.

Edit: The newly suggested passive change to Skarner will definitely help solve this problem.

New Skarner had his power as a champion toned down dramatically- but was given the bandaid fix of numbers. So what does that mean? It means Skarner's balance hinges on items more so than most other champions. What happens if Riot decides to buff/nerf new Skarner's core items? His win rate will change much more dramatically than other champions who use the same items. He's like the ADC of bruisers in terms of item effectiveness and synergy and bruisers are known for loving problematic items- this does not bode well for the scorpion's future and leaves much to question about Scruffy's decisions. I have never been much of a Skarner player, so I'll leave potential changes to those better versed in the art of playing the League's only brackern.

I'd very much like to see solid changes made to both of these champions to remedy this issue.

This is about my first attempt at ever using a reddit style format to post something, so excuse any issues you might come across please.

47 Comments

alfavhunter4/26/2014, 11:45:43 PM7 votes

I support this

Hawkefire4/27/2014, 7:38:16 PM5 votes

Since it is clear that you guys aren't really reading the posts on the forum, I shall simply place what I said here (Caution: Long Read):

EDIT: This was a reply to someone who was asking why Rengar was not viable at high elo

Sites that have statistics like winrate take a LONG time to update. Now then, allow me to explain how high elo ****s on him.

First and foremost, here are the reasons why old Rengar was picked in high elo:

  1. He was one of the best splitpushers in the game due to the rate that he could take down towers and he could do it safely (DISCLAIMERI personally felt his splitpushing was too strong, but having it removed was really a bad move and removed an important part of his old playstyle. They should have just made his Q deal reduced damage to towers or something, wouldn't be that hard to program...then again considering he was released with so many bugs that were even pointed out on the PBE, some of those bugs that he STILL has......you get the point)

  2. Could delete a squishy EXTREMELY quickly if the enemy is unable to peel him, or failed to properly ward their jungle. (He was almost never built full tank in high elo, however they would sometimes build him bruiser)

Now then, why is Rengar picked in high elo now?

  1. He excels at nothing compared to any other champion and as such is only picked by diehard Rengar fans, or as a trollpick.

Why?

First and foremost, his splitpushing ability was removed. Boom, he was now replaced by his primary competitor Shyvanna on nearly every splitpushing teamcomp (which were the only teamcomps that would even consider running Rengar).

Second: He can no longer reliably delete an ADC very quickly. If he his built full assassin, the ADC WILL win the duel...every....single...time. Why? Rengar cannot engage on the ADC with his ult, because the moment he gets within warning range of the ADC, the ADC will place a pink ward down and begin chunking his HP (which will KILL Assassin Rengar, and it will bring bruiser Rengar down to at least 3/4 HP if they are on equal terms). Now then the moment Rengar jumps on the ADC, the ADC will use a self-peel move (such as Caitlyns net shot) and continue kiting Rengar, and eventually killing him because Rengar has no true gap close.

Third: One of his semi-viable builds (aka: Full Tank) was absolutely ruined by this rework simply because he doesn't deal enough damage to make it considerable. Not only that but he cannot initiate the fight with his ult either because the warning will cause the entire enemy team to disengage (or worse, place a pink ward down and simply kill him)).

To break this down further:

Assassin Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true assassin. Not only do they have a better chance of coming back than Rengar does, but they also often have backup roles that they can fall back to. Not only that, but the ones that have a hard time coming back are also a lot safer then Rengar at all stages of play.

Bruiser Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true bruiser. Need damage, engage, early control? Take Lee. Need splitpush, tank, and damage? Take Shyvanna. These are just a few of the more common examples. However: The recent buffs MIGHT make this build semi-viable, but at the complete cost of all other playstyles....

Tank Rengar:

Outclassed by every other true tank. They all have better initiate than he does, and they all have more CC than he does and thus can fulfill the role. Not only that, but they can often deal more damage than Rengar can...which is downright amusing if you think about it.

the Anarchit3cht4/26/2014, 7:51:50 PM4 votes

Rengar can go invis and pop up on someone with enough damage to Nuke them dead before they can react. Shyvana can't go invisible. Or, essentially the same thing if you pop out of a bush at them. I don't see an issue here other than the fact that you want to be able to faceroll on people without staying true to the sneaky nature of Rengar.

lightdragoon884/27/2014, 3:46:44 PM3 votes

I wouldn't mind an increase on HP regen.

Now for Q I say a bleed.

For enpowered Q the speed makes sense as he kind-of in a "rawr rage mode" kind of thing.

But for both Q, he jamming a giant knife into a target and then releasing it with blood spraying out all over the place.

How about some damage over time for that? Or (since it usually looking like it hitting the enemy arm) the enemy hit get a attack speed or attack damage reduction for a second or 2? From the animation stand point it would make more sense.

....at least for me.

Kyleman1434/26/2014, 6:36:29 PM2 votes

TBH i am not a skarner player either but i gotta say after the rework he became an amazing champion and way better than his original form IMHO... He is so strong now even early without items so idk how you can say he has no strength early the only reason he isnt seen more is because of the fact that he is neither an FF jungler or an early ganking jungler... Which both have been the meta since the skarner rework... early ganking junglers first... but seriously his early clear times are good and his late game jungle clear times are god tier but again this is my opinion as i have played him only twice when he was free after the rework carried both my games with over 15 kills...

Volie4/27/2014, 2:33:03 AM2 votes

I also support this, rengar is meh now. he cna tbe an assasin and cant be a tank. jungling is hard without speed boost so only choice is top lane. and u get destroyed there most of the time.

Xanru4/27/2014, 8:25:23 AM2 votes

I'm pretty sure I said this before, but I think W should be replaced entirely. Most preferably with a mobility option, his ult and E should be altered as well.

As it stands Rengar feels like he needs some cohesion and a better direction, because at the moment it feels like his engage and thought pattern is that of an assassin, his fight pattern is that of a bruiser, and his build pattern is that of a tank, but he doesn't have the elements required to make any of them truly work, but has all the flaws that generally cause champs to fail in those roles. It's confusing and super freaking ugly.

Felaeris4/27/2014, 7:23:00 PM2 votes

Current Rengar requires multiple uses of empowered bola to kill targets. Empowered Q feels useless by comparison

Solution(s): Add more utility to Empowered Q

  • Allow Rengar to leap on next Auto Attack
  • Add Missing/Max %HP damage
  • Bonus effect on low HP targets TBD.

Why allow Rengar another leap? Risk vs Reward. Do you leap onto the fleeing ADC with Emp Q or do you hard snare him with a netted bola and give the team a chance to catch up? This also allows Rengar the ability to escape from combat through creative use of wards and the jungle creeps much as Amumu Akali Diana Irelia MasterYi Maokai Pantheon XinZhao

Why the Execute effect? Empowered Q the damage is, frankly, rather lacking in the current state. If I decide to go Emp Q over Emp E I want a better return than watching them flash away--especially if the target is already below half HP when I use the Emp Q.

Anybody else have thoughts on this? Would the execute effect or the leap be fine on their own?

blackraven044/26/2014, 11:53:13 PM2 votes

rengar is better imo been winning moar games and carring hard a lot compared to b4

LouisLeGros4/26/2014, 5:20:01 PM2 votes

I don't know if you saw the Skarner follow up thread but they are looking into changing his passive and that will certainly tackle part of his being the "ADC of bruisers in terms of item effectiveness and synergy."

Flurby5/10/2014, 3:40:49 PM1 votes

Bump - The proposed Rengar changes seem pretty good.

(BTW I hate these new forums)

Sire Hippington4/26/2014, 7:21:33 PM1 votes

What i would like to see is an as-buff back on Q paired with a small ms-buff(like 7/9/11/13/15%) to increase his early clears/trades and give him a bit more stickyness that he realy lacks outside of brushes I think the as-buff should stack with the empowered I don't realy think his Q should hit towers, i'd rather see other champs loosing the abillity to kill towers that fast aswell...Towers are still to weak imo. if he would be to strong with as+ms on Q, rather decrease the basedmg on it.

Oaklen4/27/2014, 2:06:54 AM1 votes

As much as I dislike both Champions I have to agree, why would I pick Rengar if Shy is open? She can split push, spearhead into my team and not made of tissue paper.

Vorastra4/27/2014, 5:52:10 AM1 votes

I agree in the sense that new rengar is subpar to every other champions in the current top\jungle meta.

Am not sure of the changes i would make... i would return Q to its previous form, nerf tower power only, clean up W power, i belive the 50% increase is just promoting suicide, make E at least faster than trowing a doughnut.

And i would get the old ulti back, exept with the speed changes... hunting grants extra speed made sense.

Rengar needs basily a new rework, to "work"

Trinket is worthless, and i would change that ofc... if only not just to give the khazix the huge huge huge advantage of a kitty treasure goblin during the "quest"

Hyrum Graff4/28/2014, 3:55:06 PM1 votes

Suggestion to fix rengar's ult (a slight buff, IMO): In stealth, remove the 'notification that rengar is nearby'. When rengar decides to leave stealth by attacking someone, he takes .5 seconds (or maybe 1 second) to 'ready himself' before he jumps on them. In this time, rengar is rooted (But still invisible). This "readying" can only be activated within the range that you can currently jump on someone from, but rengar can jump any distance to them. As soon as rengar starts 'readying' himself, an exclamation point, visible to rengar's allies and enemies, appears over the head of the target rengar is about to jump on. Now rengar's ult has some counterplay (you have warning that rengar is coming, and you know who he's going to jump on), but he can also use his stealth defensively, more effectively.

Odious Omen4/28/2014, 6:27:29 PM1 votes

The new rework is cool i guess. But it makes me upset, he's always kind of been a dissapointment anyways. Before and after he always fell off late game because his kit and damage weren't quite keeping up with Assassin's/Tanks. His bonetooth is supposed to upgrade his abilities but seeing as the only time you have bushes really is in the jungle, would make him good for nothing but counter attacking, Counter jungle tactics. He needs a complete rework and rethink. While still keeping his playstyle and fitting his lore. Imo bonetooth should do some of the things you guys want done to these abilities. Such as the Leap after activating Q should be something after 5+ kills. Get aswell with that bonetooth should do something similar to Viktor's special item. except with attack speed or AD, we don't need the trinket stuff. He can buy wards, whilst the support can supply the team's red trinket. He's got a lot of work to be done to bring him back to the rift with fear. I support the topic.