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Tank Jungler 'Fix' Attempt

Breakstar·5/24/2014, 1:18:30 PM·5 votes·934 views

Edit: Okay, some folks voted 'TL;DR', which means this post is probably a little too dense. I'll put a proposal summary at the bottom of the post in a block quote like this one. You can skip to that if you don't wanna read it all! Let me know if that helps!

Hey, guys! Breakstar here. I want to take a swing at this Tank Jungler problem.
Let me know what you guys think! :D

  1. Assumption: Tank junglers are balanced early in the game.

  2. Assumption: Tank junglers fall off relative to damage-focused junglers post-6.

  3. Assumption: #2 is caused by the slow post-6 jungling of tanks.

  4. Assumption: Tank junglers almost always buy item 3207.

  5. Assumption: The lower damage of tanks causes them to lose jungle sustain relative to damage-focused junglers when considering the 'Butcher' item passive.

Knowing all that, here's my shot at a 'fix'.

item 3207 Spirit of the Ancient Golem item 3207

Cost/Stats/Tenacity/Conservation (Same as Live)
UNIQUE: Butcher (Removed)
UNIQUE: Preparation (New!)

Preparation: Whenever you deal damage to a neutral monster with a spell, it adds one stack of Preparation, up to three. This ability has a four-second cooldown. When summoner 11 is used on a neutral monster that has three stacks of Preparation, its cooldown is reduced by half. Furthermore, finishing off a Prepared target with summoner 11 heals the user for 5% of the target's max HP as health, and 3% of the target's max HP as mana (if applicable), per stack of Preparation.
This healing is capped to 15% of the user's max HP and mana.
Preparation stacks vanish if the camp is allowed to heal to full health.

TL;DR? Basically: If you take a long time to kill a jungle camp, Smite's cooldown is partially refunded, allowing you to use it again sooner in the jungle. This makes tank junglers less dependent on their low-damage abilities by giving them more Smites. It also comes with some sustain to replace Butcher.

Okay! So, what's next? Here are some important concerns:

  • "What spells trigger Preparation?"

As a general rule, any spell that applies Rylai's or Spell Vamp will apply Preparation stacks. To match the current rules for spells, on-hit spells like Ezreal and Gangplank Qs would *not *apply stacks, but the damage dealt by Amumu and Rammus Ws *would *apply stacks, subject to the 4-second cooldown.

  • "Wouldn't this result in fighter junglers building item 3207 and then stacking damage, increasing their jungle speed to LUDICROUS SPEED?"

It's a potential concern, but the cooldown on stack application means that the cooldown refund on Smite only benefits champions that take *at least *8 seconds to clear the camp. If that's too short, the cooldown can be lengthened - that's just a matter of tuning.

  • "8 Seconds? But if the cooldown is 4 seconds, and it takes 3 stacks to get the Smite cooldown refund, shouldn't it take 12 seconds?"

Easy mistake to make - I was mixed up by this too in the concepting phase.
When the jungler first attacks the camp, that applies the first stack, then they wait for one cooldown. They hit it again (second stack), wait for the cooldown again, and then apply the third stack. They can now smite the camp and get the full refund. Because they don't have to wait for a third cooldown, it's only 8 seconds.

  • "Wait, it doesn't say that only the champion with item 3207 gets the heal/cooldown refund if they Smite the camp! Doesn't this mean an enemy could Smite-steal your camp and take all the Preparation benefits?"

Yes, absolutely. This is intended; aggressive counterjungling and contested smites should be rewarded, especially as the intended counterplay to tank junglers - generally poor duelists. This also means that a smite-stolen Dragon or Baron is even more devastating to a tank jungler, for better or worse.

  • "What champions benefit the most from this item? Which champions could become problematic?"

Naturally, slow-clear tank champions are the most likely beneficiaries. We could see a resurgence of low-damage junglers like Alistar , Leona , and Blitzcrank , but it'll mostly help champions like Amumu , Chogath , Maokai , Skarner , and Sejuani .
LeeSin is the main champion I could imagine 'abusing' this item, because it would help alleviate his weaker lategame without harming his brutal earlygame.

  • "Why 3 stacks max?"

Any fewer than 3 feels silly, but I worry that 4 could be a problem for tanks who don't have a lot of damaging abilities (Rammus and Braum , for example) or short cooldowns.

  • "Those numbers are terrible!"

They are, of course, subject to tuning and balance.

Edit: TL;DR

  • Tank Junglers clear too slow post-6 to keep up with with damage-focused champs
  • Tank Junglers don't get much sustain from Butcher since they deal little damage

Therefore I suggest we change item 3207 so that instead of Butcher, it has this:
UNIQUE PASSIVE: Preparation: Using a spell on a jungle camp adds a stack, up to one stack per four seconds. At three stacks, using Smite on the camp will refund half of Smite's cooldown (40s -> 20s) and heal the user based on the camp's max health. This won't speed up already-fast junglers due to the stack cooldown, but it'll help the slow ones clear safer and faster.

So, guys. Thoughts? :D

22 Comments

Siachi5/24/2014, 1:38:44 PM2 votes

Interesting proposal: Granted, I can't really add anything to this because I'm terrible at jungling, but it seems like it would be helpful to slow-clearing tanky junglers.

The Red Warden5/25/2014, 5:30:12 AM2 votes

Almost all tank junglers have mana-issues for starters. While yes the mana costs are usually like this because these abilities can be devastating (Maokai-w), they force the users of these champs to either use abilities and have a camp clear time of about the usual speed of the more damaged focused ones, but this leaves them mana-less for ganks which are tan junglers main focus. Or they don't use abilities and are forced to be under-leveled due to the clear doing so much damage to them and making them finish their first clear at the speed a more damaged focused one would have done a second clear and ganked at least once already. So my point is that Tank junglers need something that would allow them to either help with their mana or allow them to more easily do the first clear.

ArtoriusIV5/24/2014, 2:44:46 PM1 votes

The thing is that tanks slower clear time is not an issue, phoenix udyr has one of, if not, the fastest clear, and no one plays him, because his ganks are meh unless the enemy is pushing and his team fighting is awful. There are more issues with tanky junglers other than just clear. (skarner is not low damage, his clear is great, and again no one picks him because of his rework and his teamfighting)

Sire Hippington5/24/2014, 7:18:21 PM1 votes

While the idea seems nice, it only deals with 1 out of 3 huge problems for Tanks.

One huge problem is the earlygame, ur usually very vulnerable to countrganks and invades early on, cause u clear slower than bruisers, u have less duelingpotential, and u depend on blue makeing it mandatory to start blue and heavily guard it, so red is easy to invade.

another huge problem for me is that Tanks need to much mana while heaving little items for sustain. thx to the spiriteitem passive, this isn't a big deal in the jungle, but if u have a standoff or prolonged teamfight, it becomes a big issue. If i leave a fight as a tank, it's rather because i run oom than because droping low on health(and i do use frozenheart)

Better in fight manasustain for tanks, like gaining some mana when taking dmg on Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heart/Iceborn Gauntlet would help tanks alot, both in jungle and on sololane, and i don't think a little buff for the Glacial items would hurt.