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Tank Jungler 'Fix' Attempt

Breakstar··5 votes·934 views

Edit: Okay, some folks voted 'TL;DR', which means this post is probably a little too dense. I'll put a proposal summary at the bottom of the post in a block quote like this one. You can skip to that if you don't wanna read it all! Let me know if that helps!

Hey, guys! Breakstar here. I want to take a swing at this Tank Jungler problem.
Let me know what you guys think! :D

  1. Assumption: Tank junglers are balanced early in the game.

  2. Assumption: Tank junglers fall off relative to damage-focused junglers post-6.

  3. Assumption: #2 is caused by the slow post-6 jungling of tanks.

  4. Assumption: Tank junglers almost always buy item 3207.

  5. Assumption: The lower damage of tanks causes them to lose jungle sustain relative to damage-focused junglers when considering the 'Butcher' item passive.

Knowing all that, here's my shot at a 'fix'.

item 3207 Spirit of the Ancient Golem item 3207

Cost/Stats/Tenacity/Conservation (Same as Live)
UNIQUE: Butcher (Removed)
UNIQUE: Preparation (New!)

Preparation: Whenever you deal damage to a neutral monster with a spell, it adds one stack of Preparation, up to three. This ability has a four-second cooldown. When summoner 11 is used on a neutral monster that has three stacks of Preparation, its cooldown is reduced by half. Furthermore, finishing off a Prepared target with summoner 11 heals the user for 5% of the target's max HP as health, and 3% of the target's max HP as mana (if applicable), per stack of Preparation.
This healing is capped to 15% of the user's max HP and mana.
Preparation stacks vanish if the camp is allowed to heal to full health.

TL;DR? Basically: If you take a long time to kill a jungle camp, Smite's cooldown is partially refunded, allowing you to use it again sooner in the jungle. This makes tank junglers less dependent on their low-damage abilities by giving them more Smites. It also comes with some sustain to replace Butcher.

Okay! So, what's next? Here are some important concerns:

  • "What spells trigger Preparation?"

As a general rule, any spell that applies Rylai's or Spell Vamp will apply Preparation stacks. To match the current rules for spells, on-hit spells like Ezreal and Gangplank Qs would *not *apply stacks, but the damage dealt by Amumu and Rammus Ws *would *apply stacks, subject to the 4-second cooldown.

  • "Wouldn't this result in fighter junglers building item 3207 and then stacking damage, increasing their jungle speed to LUDICROUS SPEED?"

It's a potential concern, but the cooldown on stack application means that the cooldown refund on Smite only benefits champions that take *at least *8 seconds to clear the camp. If that's too short, the cooldown can be lengthened - that's just a matter of tuning.

  • "8 Seconds? But if the cooldown is 4 seconds, and it takes 3 stacks to get the Smite cooldown refund, shouldn't it take 12 seconds?"

Easy mistake to make - I was mixed up by this too in the concepting phase.
When the jungler first attacks the camp, that applies the first stack, then they wait for one cooldown. They hit it again (second stack), wait for the cooldown again, and then apply the third stack. They can now smite the camp and get the full refund. Because they don't have to wait for a third cooldown, it's only 8 seconds.

  • "Wait, it doesn't say that only the champion with item 3207 gets the heal/cooldown refund if they Smite the camp! Doesn't this mean an enemy could Smite-steal your camp and take all the Preparation benefits?"

Yes, absolutely. This is intended; aggressive counterjungling and contested smites should be rewarded, especially as the intended counterplay to tank junglers - generally poor duelists. This also means that a smite-stolen Dragon or Baron is even more devastating to a tank jungler, for better or worse.

  • "What champions benefit the most from this item? Which champions could become problematic?"

Naturally, slow-clear tank champions are the most likely beneficiaries. We could see a resurgence of low-damage junglers like Alistar , Leona , and Blitzcrank , but it'll mostly help champions like Amumu , Chogath , Maokai , Skarner , and Sejuani .
LeeSin is the main champion I could imagine 'abusing' this item, because it would help alleviate his weaker lategame without harming his brutal earlygame.

  • "Why 3 stacks max?"

Any fewer than 3 feels silly, but I worry that 4 could be a problem for tanks who don't have a lot of damaging abilities (Rammus and Braum , for example) or short cooldowns.

  • "Those numbers are terrible!"

They are, of course, subject to tuning and balance.

Edit: TL;DR

  • Tank Junglers clear too slow post-6 to keep up with with damage-focused champs
  • Tank Junglers don't get much sustain from Butcher since they deal little damage

Therefore I suggest we change item 3207 so that instead of Butcher, it has this:
UNIQUE PASSIVE: Preparation: Using a spell on a jungle camp adds a stack, up to one stack per four seconds. At three stacks, using Smite on the camp will refund half of Smite's cooldown (40s -> 20s) and heal the user based on the camp's max health. This won't speed up already-fast junglers due to the stack cooldown, but it'll help the slow ones clear safer and faster.

So, guys. Thoughts? :D

22 Comments

Siachi2 votes

Interesting proposal: Granted, I can't really add anything to this because I'm terrible at jungling, but it seems like it would be helpful to slow-clearing tanky junglers.

Breakstar1 votes

Oh, hogwash. You don't have to be Diamond-tier to give suggestions. Morello's not in Challenger, after all!

(We're gonna pretend that Morello still takes an active hand in live balance for the sake of argument)

Siachi3 votes

Yeah but it'd be nice to have someone SEMI-COMPETENT at jungling giving you feedback in regards to jungle balance.

LONG EDIT: But enough of my inadequacies; if it is an issue of clear times as to why certain tank junglers have issues (I know after looking at some Maokai guides about how counter-jungling is an issue for him), then I'd imagine with these changes, Smite would be up for practically ever camp (or maybe every other camp). Would certainly be helpful for clearing to have Smite up for every camp. Although, I can't exactly remember the exact reasoning given for why tanky junglers aren't popular in the meta.

However, it probably serves to mention that if a jungler needs to use an ABILITY to add the 'preparation' stack, this could serve as an issue to more mana-reliant junglers... I'd imagine there'd be some level of awareness required, as it'd be similar to Tear stacking in that you have to AVOID using an ability (if possible) until the item goes on 'cooldown' to add another charge. But of course, having it added through autoattacks or if the item built up 'charges' for you to add later would probably defeat the purpose of giving benefit to tanky junglers as opposed to more damage-heavy junglers.

(My inadequacies demand I remind you I probably have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to balance)

Breakstar1 votes

Yeah, the idea of having Smite for every camp is one I was sort of planning on. I figure that that's the best way to keep these low-damage junglers viable - anyone's who has tried clearing the jungle as Rammus past 20 minutes knows the pain.

You're right about the mana costs and cooldowns - both are pretty big issues. I also worry that the cooldown on stack application could be a little confusing for newer players who don't notice the little cooldown timer on the item. Maybe there's a way to make the cooldown more visible in the UI? Preparation stacks are going to have to have a symbol, maybe there's a way to show when the cooldown has ended and another stack can be applied.

Back on the mana subject, I feel like most tanks have a low-mana-cost ability they can use to apply stacks, such as Skarner or Maokai Q*, or Amumu's W/E.

If autoattacks applied Preparation stacks too, I think it would be fine in terms of gameplay (the stack cooldown should still prevent fast junglers from wanting this item), but it might be a little less fun that way. If autoattacks and spells both apply Preparation, I worry that it would seem like the stacks 'just happen', rather than feeling like something the player did intentionally.

Edit: * I just realized that Maokai's Q mana cost is 55. I'm kinda shocked it's so expensive - for a short-ranged ability with relatively modest base values, I expected a mana cost closer to 35. Dang. O_o

The Red Warden2 votes

Almost all tank junglers have mana-issues for starters. While yes the mana costs are usually like this because these abilities can be devastating (Maokai-w), they force the users of these champs to either use abilities and have a camp clear time of about the usual speed of the more damaged focused ones, but this leaves them mana-less for ganks which are tan junglers main focus. Or they don't use abilities and are forced to be under-leveled due to the clear doing so much damage to them and making them finish their first clear at the speed a more damaged focused one would have done a second clear and ganked at least once already. So my point is that Tank junglers need something that would allow them to either help with their mana or allow them to more easily do the first clear.

Breakstar1 votes

First-clear is definitely where tank junglers are the most vulnerable. They're squishy, low on mana, and low on damage. Blue buff does a great job of eliminating those mana troubles in the first clear, though, wouldn't you say? That makes most tanks extremely blue-dependent early on, but I think that's good for the game.

I just ran a test, since I've not been jungling much lately, and as Maokai I hit level 4 at 4:00 with 80% health and one biscuit left. That's more biscuits spent than I'd expect from a stronger early jungler like Elise or Lee, but I had plenty of health and full mana from blue buff.

If tanks don't have enough mana for their first clear, it's probably because they've been denied blue buff, right? Do you think tanks need a way to mana sustain in the jungle (in levels 1-4) without blue buff if they lose it somehow?

The Red Warden1 votes

While this is true, you have to realize that if the enemy team decides to steal it early then you are useless. If you decide to steal their blue though it really doesn't matter since usually they can just take their red and continue their normal path unfazed. I am thinking somewhat of an early game mana/mana-regen item.

ArtoriusIV1 votes

The thing is that tanks slower clear time is not an issue, phoenix udyr has one of, if not, the fastest clear, and no one plays him, because his ganks are meh unless the enemy is pushing and his team fighting is awful. There are more issues with tanky junglers other than just clear. (skarner is not low damage, his clear is great, and again no one picks him because of his rework and his teamfighting)

Hyrum Graff2 votes

I'm not sure I'd put early game udyr exclusively in the tank category. If he goes aggresive runes and masteries, he's squishier but deals a lot of damage, hence his fast clear - more like a fighter. Later, of course, he's a tank.

Furthermore, while you point out good other reasons why some tank junglers aren't picked, do you really think this idea would hurt? I don't think it would completely solve the problem, but I do think it would help.

ArtoriusIV1 votes

i think the help it would make is negligible and would not bring any of them back. But you do have a point, early game Udyr is more of a brawler/fighter the a tank. Maybe that should be the focus, giving tanks a better dueling ability through an item so they can contest their buffs

Hyrum Graff2 votes

Maybe that should be the focus, giving tanks a better dueling ability through an item so they can contest their buffs

That would be interesting, but if tanks could duel, I'd be concerned about them pushing brawlers out - they'd just be better all around. As the OP just said in a reply above:

Tank junglers are traditionally terrible duelists early on, and combined with their relatively slow clears and blue dependence, they're extremely vulnerable to early invades by strong fighters such as Lee Sin or Vi. However, I think that that is actually a GOOD thing. This is an easily-identifiable weakness with clear counterplay (mix up your jungle route, ward, call teammates in to help fight), and reinforces the role of damage junglers as small-scale skirmishers. Because tanks are generally more impactful in teamfights, I think it's expected that they'd be at their weakest in small 1v1 fights.

Breakstar1 votes

I think you're probably right, Graff - as my previous post probably implies. But it's an interesting idea, and let's talk about it for a sec.

Let's say that we want to make tanks better duelists early so they're more resilient to counterjungle and early duels. *How *can we do that? We could buff every tank's earlygame individually - just buffing base stats and level 1 ability numbers, but that's a pretty hard sell. Most tanks are sitting at a pretty solid winrate, and a few are even at surprisingly high rates (Hi, Amumu!). So, we can't really buff their stats directly.

So maybe we create an item that you can start out with on a tank that makes them much stronger early on, but weaker later. Problem is... there are already Doran's items that serve that exact purpose. And because items aren't locked to classes, we can pretty much guarantee that any item that grants early power isn't going to be used and abused by tanks, it'll be used and abused by the Lee Sins and Xin Zhaos looking to chop down Maokai at his red buff.

In short, I don't think that helping out the earlygame of these tank junglers is really feasible, on top of the concern that it's probably unwise in the first place.

ArtoriusIV1 votes

fair enough, now what if this item was only helpful to tanks? It increase your damage based on your max HP or based on missing HP. per 1hp of missing HP you gain 1AD for example. so squishier champs wouldn't benefit, but those that can comfortably lose HP would.

Breakstar2 votes

That's definitely an option - you could give the item bonus damage against jungle camps based on bonus health/resists. However, this item would also strongly benefit tanky fighters like Shyvana, Vi, and Xin Zhao who decide to build tanky. I intended these changes to help 'capital T' Tanks like Maokai, Nautilus, and Alistar. It's really hard to make an item that helps Tanks without buffing fighters. That's why I went with the solution I did; my proposal only helps champions that farm the jungle slowly already - if the champion in question already clears pretty fast, the changes to Golem won't help at all.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

What about bonus damage against CC'd camps, or a mana/hp refund for CCing camps?

Breakstar2 votes

Those would both be interesting options, but they wouldn't really help the jungling issue. They'd just be useful in ganks and teamfights. That said, the idea of tanks getting mana back from ganking (and hitting champions) but not from jungling is pretty interesting, actually, but I think it'd be kinda weird too. ...I wonder how that would work - maybe they got HP sustain in the jungle but mostly got mana back from hitting champs. So they'd go back into the jungle when they needed to get health back, and go gank when low on mana. Then again, I guess that wouldn't really work unless they had the mana to gank in the first place.

Still, interesting idea. :D

Hyrum Graff1 votes

League Wars II: The revenge of the Olaf.

Breakstar1 votes

Oh god no.

Not again.

;_;

ArtoriusIV1 votes

He is very good, but I think a stronger laner then a jungler.

Sire Hippington1 votes

While the idea seems nice, it only deals with 1 out of 3 huge problems for Tanks.

One huge problem is the earlygame, ur usually very vulnerable to countrganks and invades early on, cause u clear slower than bruisers, u have less duelingpotential, and u depend on blue makeing it mandatory to start blue and heavily guard it, so red is easy to invade.

another huge problem for me is that Tanks need to much mana while heaving little items for sustain. thx to the spiriteitem passive, this isn't a big deal in the jungle, but if u have a standoff or prolonged teamfight, it becomes a big issue. If i leave a fight as a tank, it's rather because i run oom than because droping low on health(and i do use frozenheart)

Better in fight manasustain for tanks, like gaining some mana when taking dmg on Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heart/Iceborn Gauntlet would help tanks alot, both in jungle and on sololane, and i don't think a little buff for the Glacial items would hurt.

Breakstar1 votes

I think you make some interesting points. I'll try to address them here.

  • Earlygame

Tank junglers are traditionally terrible duelists early on, and combined with their relatively slow clears and blue dependence, they're extremely vulnerable to early invades by strong fighters such as Lee Sin or Vi. However, I think that that is actually a GOOD thing.
This is an easily-identifiable weakness with clear counterplay (mix up your jungle route, ward, call teammates in to help fight), and reinforces the role of damage junglers as small-scale skirmishers. Because tanks are generally more impactful in teamfights, I think it's expected that they'd be at their weakest in small 1v1 fights.

  • Mana Dependence

This is actually a big part of the reason the jungle needs changes. Because the current jungle items heal HP and Mana based on the junglers' damage dealt, it greatly favors damage-heavy junglers over utility-based and tanky junglers. My proposed change would, in theory, give greater sustain to the slow junglers. The mana troubles could be addressed by my change, at least for some tanks.

  • In-Fight Mana Sustain

This is a separate issue from mana sustain in the jungle, and one that I think is outside of the scope of my changes. An option like Grail could help you out here, but ultimately I don't think that one change could help tank junglers become more viable in the jungle while simultaneously fixing the in-fight mana expenditure of, say, Maokai.

Sire Hippington1 votes

It's true that the vulnerbillity to counterjungling is an easily-identifiable weakness with clear counterplay, but that weakness is currently overshadowing their strengths by alot.

1 of the strengths of tank-junglres are ganks, but if u face a good lee/vi/elise..., u never realy get the oportunity to play to that stength, as they either force u back in ur own jungle, seting u behind quite alot, or they lurk for an countergank, and they will win the 2v2.

the teamfight strength is pretty limited by the fact that ur probably far behind till it comes to clashes and the infight manaprobs(wich are not jungle related, but they still hold tanks back) The problem is that bruisers rightnow do pretymuch anything a tank does, just better(expt teamfighting, but they are far from beeing weak there aswell)

A vi for exaple clears faster than any tank, got better objektive controll, has just as strong ganks, much better dueling and strong and save initiation for teamfights..

I wouldn't complain if a carry/controll jungler like Noc or Shy has an easy time invading my jungle and bully me out/win counter ganks, as they therefor have bad ganks and theire clash impact depends heavily on their gear, but a vi or leesin offers just as good ganks as mao or nauti, and they also offer alot utilty alowing them to stay relevant even without much gear, so why would i ever pick a tank over a bruiser in the jungle?

having better lategame clear is nice and fine, but it won't help if u fall behind to far in the early, wich currently happens vs any good bruiser.

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