Why doesn't riot like auras ?

JackYAqua·May 18, 2014·2 votes·4,069 views

Can someone give me a link to a statement?
Because I can't find any in google ... (it doesn't help that riot is called 'riot').

36 Comments

RiotRiot WhistMay 18, 20147 votes

Well in the case of Sona I know our designers aren't too crazy about them because they don't give feedback to the players.

When Sona activates her abilities it's great, you can see she is affecting other champions in the form of speed/damage/heals, however the accompanying Aura goes largely unnoticed. I don't know how much Sona is helping my damage, in fact I tend to forget she actually even is. Same thing goes with Aegis, janna's global move speed buff etc.

EDIT: I am not saying Auras need to provide more stats to be noticeable, but explaining that due to their nature, it's hard to tell how much auras have helped you which make them lack luster and easy to forget about.

the Anarchit3chtMay 18, 20142 votes

Mostly, it's because they provide bonuses without any input from the players. I recall this being said on multiple ocassions when they did reworks to TF, Janna, etc. They made Janna's ms speed buff not global, but I think they kept it mostly the same to not anger people. Ideally, they'd probably change it to require some input on the behalf of Janna or her teammates if they didn't feel like it'd make every whine.

Oh, and @ Riot Whist: Support items in general are garbage. They provide neglible stats to your allies. I mean, just think about it... what has a better chance at saving your ADC? An extra like 20 armor, or an extra 120 AP super poke? I think the answer is obvious.

ItemsGuyMay 18, 20143 votes

Compare those support auras to, say, Crucible, which can clutch save a stunlocked ally, or Tagron's, which can provide periodic but noticeable (and manageable) sustain in lane. The aura items don't seem to provide nearly as much (considering that 20 bonus armor is applied to every ally within range), but since there's no real gameplay around them, they can't be strong without being broken.

Hyrum GraffMay 18, 20142 votes

Obviously the AP will. However, if that's an extra 20 armor for your whole team, that's going to make a significant difference in teamfights, maybe as much or more than an extra 120 AP on your poke.

the Anarchit3chtMay 24, 20141 votes

Still negligble. An extra 20 armor isn't going to help ANYONE when you have a support blasting pokes with an extra 120 AP every few seconds. They are still going to get melted regardless of that 20 armor/mr. The 20 armor is neglible in comparison to the amount of damage that will be output in team fights.

Hyrum GraffMay 24, 20141 votes

First off, 20 armor is 20% damage reduction vs physical attacks. So, if they have ADs on their team, that's significant.

Second, how many pokes are you assuming that the AP support hits before there's an engage?

OrisiMay 19, 20141 votes

I think this raises an important point tbh. It's gotten to the stage now where the utility of a support is being over-ridden by the extra damage a character ignoring support roles/builds can bring. The likes of Annie, Morgana, and even just standard mid-laners with no real CC can be subbed in, and the damage buff they get from their GP5 item is sufficient to suppress the early game and gain the arc enough of a lead for the utility to be irrelevant. And there's nothing supports can do to answer that early-game strength other than maybe build to match the damage, if they're the right champion.

Even after that early game, the utility can be overwhelmed later game for the same reason; that early lead has quashed any non-tank support.

I think giving more generous support-oriented items to buff allies should be considered heavily; something tuned to mean that a game playing a duo damage bot can be negated by a support build adding more damage/defences to their team, not themselves.

the Anarchit3chtMay 24, 20141 votes

It is a problem, but I don't think buffing support items is a viable option either. If they provide too strong of a bonus, then they become toxic due to the lack of input needed on behalf of the support. Items that provide a clutch save by requiring the support to press a button are an entirely different deal, they work quite well and I'd be happy to see more diverse items along this route.

OrisiMay 24, 20141 votes

Yeah I should've been clearer on stuff like that, I'm not talking about strong auras, but more effective activated-support items. In most games i'm unlikely to get anywhere near a full build, and in those situations, I generally run one of two builds depending on AD or AP support champion.

I'd love to see some more variety in those options; Take the sight-stone. 800g isn't a major cost, but it's an item that takes up a slot for most of the game, and is generally considered must-have for supports. But running without a support, you're spending 800g on a health-benefit worth 400g, and the extra wards mean nothing, because the power-spike that 800g can give to an opponent buying damage means a gank isn't even necessary for them to take control of the lane.

I'd love to see the sightstone re-classified as a trinket; no health bonus, and a 400g immediate cost to take, but with the same full-ward benefits of the sightstone, minus the natural re-generation the current ward trinket has. It can even have a longer activation time when buying, say 3 minutes, so that it doesn't come into play until the landing phase should be underway. At least that was the cost of that clutch item is reduced early on, and the options for the extra 400g saved are wider; i can buy a health gem and build it into something that uses it more efficiently for a health bonus, for instance. Or use it for earlier mana regen or gp5 upgrading.

5G8Nri0B54May 18, 20142 votes

Wait wait wait.

As for the old Aegis, I KNOW it's having a massive impact on my team because of then times when I buy an Aegis, my team starts winning harder or if we were losing, we lose slower.

btw, if people aren't getting feedback with Sona's aura, why not go the Diablo2 approach and make them visually affect others like the Paladin's auras?

ItemsGuyMay 19, 20142 votes

But how can you (or your teammates) know it's because you bought an Aegis, and not because of some defensive stats they purchased, or strong gameplay on their parts?

On the other hand, it's never a question whether or not a well-timed Randuin's active or Sona ult has an impact in a teamfight, ambush, or what-have-you.

ItemsGuyMay 18, 20142 votes

Passive auras that simply provide statistical bonuses tend to go largely unnoticed, but buffing them to the point of noticeability will often create a large amount of invisible power that isn't healthy for the game.

Aura-like bonuses that affect gameplay, however (having trouble thinking of actual in-game examples, but think of if, say, instead of providing a flat armor bonus to nearby allies, he passively buffed them with a damage-absorbing shield over time), can create coherent gameplay patterns ie. "stay next to this guy if I want this positive effect" or "stay away from this guy if I do not want this negative effect".

It's not a problem with aura-type effects, but rather how those effects have been incorporated so far.

Hyrum GraffMay 18, 20141 votes

That's a cool idea - a champ who can provide a shield that builds up over time.

ItemsGuyMay 19, 20141 votes

It's actually what I think they should do with Taric (and by extension, other aura-carrying champions, like Sona)--because having a chunk of your power budget dedicated to a powerful effect that your allies, enemies, and even you don't notice half the time is generally less satisfying than playing a champion that lets everyone feel the full impact of their entire kit, whether it's Thresh locking down a diving assassin, or your fed Draven tearing the enemy team apart.

RiotRiot WhistMay 19, 20143 votes

I'm not saying they go unnoticed because they don't provide a big enough boost, but because there is nothing ingame that says "hey you're moving X units faster" or "hey you are dealing X more damage per attack" because of an aura.

ItemsGuyMay 19, 20142 votes

Sorry, I probably misspoke--what I meant was, by the nature of flat statistical bonuses ("you're moving X units faster" not being something that's broadcasted to those affected unless temporary/situational, like Talisman's active effect or Boots of Mobility), they are a lot harder to notice, but they can't be buffed in their current state because, aside from not providing much gameplay (unless the aura is limited to a very short range, like Sunfire's aura), they won't really become noticeable until the bonuses they provide are simply too powerful. While I agree with all of this, it's also mostly what I inferred/learned about when a bunch of the other designers were talking about aura items and why they couldn't be directly buffed (and why Aegis's old upgrade had to be removed).

While you might not immediately notice when your movespeed or AD is increased by a small flat amount, those numbers can be increased to the point where you do--but not before the item becomes so powerful that it chokes all other options out! This is very dangerous for anything that is largely unaffected by gameplay, because it ends up becoming a battle of who can out-stat who, which isn't super healthy for the game.

TL;DR - While the lack of in-game feedback doesn't help, flat statistical bonuses tend to not be that noticeable unless they're temporary (eg. Talisman's movespeed boost) or situational (eg. Boots of Mobility's out-of-combat movespeed boost)--partially due to the static nature of teamwide auras, and partially because their power is directly limited by the lack of gameplay they provide. You get Boots of Mobility if you want to take on a roaming playstyle, you get Talisman if you want to be able to quickly engage or disengage fights, but you only get flat auras when you want to help your team constantly out-stat the enemy team.

TortferngatrMay 19, 20141 votes

Hmm. Why not have Zeke's Herald, Aegis, or Sona's W aura give nearby allies a small heal on damaging enemy champions (by ANY means) based on the last time they dealt damage to an enemy champion (like a heal-on-damage version of Thresh's E passive)? It wouldn't have to be much, just enough to make it noticeable if you're poking at enemies.

Linna ExcelMay 19, 20141 votes

Whist, do you think it'd be possible to have an ultimate skill that has a passive aura attached to it?

Like giving Soraka HP/5 to allies within 700 range to her ult as an example. Obviously that'd need to be balanced out in other places, just trying to give something that'd be a reasonable starting point.

n2ODXjMyefMay 20, 20141 votes

If you would add some kind of visual effect to champion when players enter in aura zone it would feel more noticeable an satisfying. For example champion starts glowing when it enters Janna's passive aura zone or stars to sparkle when it is effected by Sona's healing aura. Also some icon over head could do well too (like icon when Warwick is chasing you). If this would happen you could actually feel impact aura has more, I think.

WolfmanMay 20, 20142 votes

Personaly I really miss some of the aura items that have been removed. Will of the Acients aura was removed(spell-vamp), Mana Manipulator's aura was taken away when upgraded to Shard of True Ice(both items now replaced/removed bc new support items) and the changes to Aegis have removed an armor aura as well. As a support main, I liked picking up these items knowing that they would help my teamates when we fought in teamfights. I'm also glad that Banner of Command is still here along with Zeke's Herald.

Joan of ArcMay 21, 20141 votes

What about something like the mastery that increases AA dmg based on AP? How it shows the extra damage as purple numbers, why not give sonas extra dmg it's own respective color? And give the speed boost a ghost-like affect. Make them more noticeable like the heal's boosted armor, how it shows the floating orbs or whatever they are.

RiotGhostcrawlerMay 19, 20144 votes

In addition to what Whist is saying, there's also a concern that there isn't a lot of teamplay or counterplay with auras. You typically don't have to decide when to use an aura or build up towards or it or anything -- it's just there.

It's a question of degree. If the aura is a passive to round out a champion who also has a lot of tactical abilities, then it's typically fine. If the auras have a large gameplay impact, then there is a risk that your champion doesn't have to work or pay attention to benefit from the passive benefit, your team doesn't have to pay attention to identify the window when they can most benefit from synergy with your bonus, and consequently, there isn't much the enemy team can do to shut it down.

HellioningMay 19, 20143 votes

Apart from killing Sona. Which isn't exactly hard. Because caster minion.

I like auras, and I want them to stay in the game, especially Sona's. I dunno about you, but when I buy an aegis on ARAM, I actually think 'YES, now my team has additional HP/5! When I stand next to injured teammates, they heal faster! I WIN FOREVER!' I actually think 'I just used Sona's E. Now my team moves EVER SO SLIGHTLY FASTER. We are impossible to catch now!'

I'm fine with Sona being a niche champion. I liked old Karma, and I don't want to lose another niche champion to homogenization.

MandaariMay 20, 20141 votes

My opinion is pretty much the opposite. When I buy a passive aura item like aegis I think "I'm helping in the most boring fashion possible by standing near you." There isn't a decision to use the aura aside from buying it. It's just there.

Sona at least has the decision of when to activate each aura.

HellioningMay 20, 20142 votes

Oh, I understand that I am abnormal and probably not like most people. But I don't see a problem with having champions be for the people that aren't like most people. Karma's rework took a niche champion and made her more mainstream, especially visually, thus gaining new fans at the loss of some old ones. She's more popular now, yeah, and stronger, but I don't enjoy new Karma as much as I enjoyed the old one, and I don't want the same thing to happen to Sona, which might happen, given Riot hates passive play, because if you aren't getting kills or helping others get kills, you are playing wrong.

MandaariMay 20, 20143 votes

I get it. I'd be pretty pissed if Sona got Karma'd. For the most part I was just talking about items. But in the end would you rather be actively buffing your teammates or just buffing them because you're near them? Personally if Sona had to get reworked I'd probably be OK if they made her more active as long as they kept the theme of auras/buffs.

HellioningMay 20, 20141 votes

I'd be fine with her becoming more active or giving her more things to do besides 'mash buttons, autoattack, do good ults' like making some of her skills actual targettable, as long as she kept her aura/buff theme, yeah.

And as for items, I dunno, I just really like passively supporting my team by being there and not dying.

MandaariMay 21, 20141 votes

I'm interested to know what you enjoy about passive play in that sense. Personally, I hate a lot of the early S4 top laners because I feel like just standing in the enemy team is effective. It's not very mentally engaging. The same goes for aura items, like I said before. There's just no sense of, "See that? I did that," when you save someone. Sure, auras definitely can save someone, but the feeling is more "I did that by standing near you" rather than actually taking action. It's not really even you doing it, but rather the item. I say this a lot when I talk about support items: It doesn't matter what champion you're playing or even if you're playing as a minion; Aegis is what's doing the work, not you. That holds for just about every support item, not just auras.

HellioningMay 21, 20141 votes

I enjoy passive play because I feel that it's more fair. Like, if a snowbally assassin is on the other team, you feel terrible if you die to them because it's difficult to come back in lane, causing that one mistake to automatically put you severely behind. Passive play, meanwhile, requires you to fail a lot, in CSing and positioning, in order to fall that severely behind.

MandaariMay 21, 20141 votes

Responding here since we hit the nesting limit.

I enjoy passive play because I feel that it's more fair. Like, if a snowbally assassin is on the other team, you feel terrible if you die to them because it's difficult to come back in lane, causing that one mistake to automatically put you severely behind. Passive play, meanwhile, requires you to fail a lot, in CSing and positioning, in order to fall that severely behind.

I don't think it's fair to compare passive and snowbally, if that's what you're doing. They're not opposites or mutually exclusive. For example, consider an item like Mejai's/Soto that gains stacks. For each stack it grants additional hp5/mp5 in an aura. If the item owner gets fed then good luck harassing someone out of lane or stopping a siege. That's a difficult snowball to stop rolling, but it's still passive.

Likewise, let's say champion kills grant no gold or xp and that respawn timers are tiny. You could have a very active game full of fights, none of which have a massive impact on the game. As active as it would be, there's not really any snowballing.

Also I think you're talking about more than one thing. Do you enjoy passive abilities? A passive game pace? Both? I share your opinion if you're saying that there's a limit to how forcefully active league should be, though I thought we were just talking about abilities and items.

JackYAquaMay 20, 20141 votes

So if there is teamplay or counterplay/ difficulty to auras AND they are not "unnoticed", but not OP, then you will still allow them in-game ?^^
If so, challenge accepted (⌐■_■)

Prometheus856May 19, 20142 votes

horry sheet, I know this one.

Click here.

Essentially, they either provide a moderate boost, which largely is taken for granted and unnoticed, or they provide a HUGE boost, in which case it is noticed and has to be nerfed.

ItemsGuyMay 19, 20141 votes

Ah, thank you! I think this might've been where I read up on all of this initially, but your summary hits the nail right on the head.

JackYAquaMay 19, 20141 votes

.... thank you.
I'd give you a cookie if I could ^^

Keiran13May 18, 20141 votes

Because if I'm getting a bonus from an aura item on my teammate, and it makes the difference on a close fight, I don't know that. My internal thought is "I (or we) rock!", not "I'm glad my teammate bought that item!" High impact with low satisfaction is the reason they dislike auras. They want items and abilities both to feel like meaningful, visibly impactful decisions, and most auras have high impact with low visibility (and by extension low satisfaction).

Deep Terror NamiMay 18, 20141 votes

I like auras, I primarily play support role so I usually end up with item 2045 , item 3222 or item 3401 , maybe item 3069 or item 3023 ...the support Active items are endless. Equally attractive Aura items would be much appreciated (especially ones that don't have CDR).