Feral Flare ideas, ways to make it a more healthy item

Jingerbeardman·Apr 24, 2014·4 votes·635 views

Edited with new ideas and added item wording

Currently Wriggles Lantern unlocks into Feral Flare after killing 30 large monsters which is prompting many players to simply stay in the jungle until it is unlocked. This defeats the point of having a jungler that helps their laners.

If Wriggles were to count kills and assists to its unlocking of feral flare it would prompt junglers to help lanes rather than simply sit in the jungle. Some changes would likely need to be made in the way machete and madreds razors accumulate stacks prior to completing wriggles. My thoughts are to not have monster kills from machete count any more, only have madreds start accumulating stacks from monsters only, then have wriggle allow stacks to be obtained from kills and assists as well.

Another possibility is to have Wriggles lantern gain bonus magic damage to champions similar to FF as you collect stacks (would not increase bonus damage to monsters). You wouldn't feel quite as weak without FF unlocked if you need to gank. This would come with some hefty drawbacks however. To have this iteration be balanced you would no longer be able to count hunters machete's and Madred's Razor's large monster kills to your stack count. You would also not restore 10 health when hitting champions. With that being the case reducing the stack count to 20 large monster kills would be best. It would also be a good idea to reduce the cost of wriggles back down to 1650 so it could be picked up sooner. Reduce the AD to 10 as well since you will be able to deal extra damage from stacks. This would promote very early ganks to help generate gold to purchase Wriggles faster so you can start stacking sooner.
Another possible iteration if removing the large monster kills from Hunters Machete and Madred's Razor felt like to much is to count Madreds stacks as well but increase the cost of finishing Wriggles to 2000 like the other Jungle items. Require 25 stacks to transform to FF.

These changes would allow junglers that choose to build wriggle/FF to participate more throughout the early and mid game without feeling like they will never be able to unlock FF unless they stay in the jungle until it has been unlocked or feel like they wont deal enough damage with Wriggles low stats.

Gonna add some item wording to help paint a better picture of what I am describing and has been recommended.

Allowing kills and assists add to the count.
Transforms into Feral Flare after accumulating 60 marks. 2 marks for large monsters and 1 mark for kills/assists (Monsters killed with Hunter's Machete and Madred's Razors count toward the transformation)

Idea 2 Iteration 1
Wriggle's Lantern
Cost: 1650 (140)
+10 Attack Damage
+30% Attack Speed

UNIQUE Passive - Maim: Basic attacks against monsters deal 100 bonus magic damage and heal 10 Health on hit. Basic attacks against champions deal magic damage equal to the number of large monsters you have killed on hit.
UNIQUE Passive: Gain 30% increased Gold from monsters.
UNIQUE Active: Places a Stealth Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 180 seconds (180 second cooldown).
Transforms into Feral Flare at 20 large monster kills.

Idea 2 Iteration 2
Wriggle's Lantern
Cost: 2000 (490)
+10 Attack Damage
+30% Attack Speed

######ps: adding some riot names so the thread shows up if they search their name in hope for their input on the discussion. Morello, Xypherous, Statikk, Zenonthestoic, Xelnath, Feralpony.

17 Comments

Doominator10Apr 24, 20142 votes

If feral flare is good with both ganking and farming, then what would be the point of the spirit stone items? While I personally like the idea of having kills / assists count towards feral flare, some balancing would need to be done to make it not completely overshadow spirit stone items.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

perhaps only half a stack for kills and assists?

Maybe even requiring a certain amount of kills/assists to actually unlock FF in addition to big monsters (less big monsters than 30 though)

Hyrum GraffApr 24, 20143 votes

Half a stack would just feel weird. Instead, make it take 60 stacks, large monsters give 2 stacks, kills/assists give 1.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

Good idea. Although half stacking already exists on seekers arm-guard, but since you are not actually stacking stats it would definitely read easier the way you proposed. Thanks for the input!

Tobasco da GamaApr 24, 20141 votes

Exactly.

Honestly, having a jungler who doesn't gank is a good, intentional weakness for the item. The numbers for the stacks were just overtuned on release so that it was instantly better than all the other items.

The nerfs to the item are a good start. It's probably in a healthy place right now. We just need buffs to SotAG now to allow gank-oriented tank junglers to come back, and jungle itemisation will be fine.

PyrrasuApr 24, 20141 votes

I like it, but there needs to be a limit on how many kills/assists can count towards Feral Flare. Maybe half of the stacks have to come from jungle creeps, at least. If you don't need to jungle to get FF, then laners will start getting it.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

a good point, knew i was forgetting something... though getting 30 kills/assists would be pretty daunting...

KikirinoApr 24, 20141 votes

I cannot stand junglers who put FF farming over the team. When I get it I gank as often as possible and make FF a second priority. But I have had junglers that never once left jungle until they had FF. Makes me hate the item so much.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

thats why I think incorporating kills/assists into its staking would be a good idea. the key will be making sure it is done in a way that prevents wriggles from getting picked up by laners.

Wight PaladinApr 24, 20141 votes

a friend of mine came up with the thought of rather than +3 to FF's damage per large monster/kill/assist drop it to +2 per.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

+3 is a good number right now for it since 33% of 3 is 1. If you drop it to 2 you are going to have strange approximations.

Sir ArmaMalumApr 24, 20141 votes

I think either doing this or lowering the FF threshold (or both) and then adding diminishing returns to the stacks would be the best way of tackling the problem. It would take a lot of iteration to get the exact power curve right but the overall added mechanic will make getting stacks after FF less of a priority.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

at what point do you think it should start to diminish? What are your thoughts on having a cap to the number of FF stacks as an alternative? (cap off at 30 stacks)

Sir ArmaMalumApr 24, 20141 votes

Good question. Starting with the cap, I think that defeats the fantasy of Feral Flare, granted diminishing does as well but not entirely. A hard cap also gives an exact "You plateau here" feel, and I like how Feral Flare makes getting jungle mobs and assists that little bit more significant even late game.

As for the scaling, I'll put out my initial calculations.

I think the 30 stack is a good agreeable point to use for a 'limit', so let's say that's around where where it reaches its minimum stack value (Or else it would just act as a cap anyway). I think a good minimum stack value is 1/4 value, 0.75 on-hit damage and 0.25 healing per stack.

Now before that I was thinking of a small boost at the beginning and having it diminishing at a peak of 15 stacks. I ran through it once and my initial guesstimate puts the peak (15 stacks) at +54 damage and +18 healing per hit, which is essentially a 3 stack 'lead' on the live values. Once it hits 30 though I would think it would have an effect like Thresh passive where it becomes "Feral Glutton" or something along those lines and all additional stacks have a much more reduced gain (the limit I mentioned earlier). I have a rudimentary graph of the power curve I'm thinking of compared to love values if that is wanted.

JingerbeardmanApr 25, 20141 votes

thing is thresh doesnt have the diminishing return anymore. that is off topic though. Giving boosted damage early would result in to much power to early, It already does more than enough once it is unlocked. The damage component isnt what worries me either its the reaching the feral flare threshold. Wriggles power plateaus pretty quickly after you buy it making ganks feel weak and unsatisfying. Once that point is reached you feel like you need to stay in the jungle until you reach the transform threshold before you can contribute again. I could be off on this a bit, but for champs like Yi this feel like the case.

If there were some way to boost wriggles power in a safe and healthy way that promotes ganking as well as farming in jungle with the big difference being the gold production from jungle being more attractive and ganking be more of a "I need to help here" sort of thing until you get Feral Flare. That would be the happy and healthy balance for the game.

Sir ArmaMalumApr 25, 20141 votes

Yeah was just using Thresh as an example.

As for the time when one is farming for wriggle's that's a separate (but valid) issue. Wriggles does still have the stack increase based off of kills/assists and I've seen a lot of people suggesting having that count for a bit more than large monster, which I can get behind.

I agree a power boost could get out of hand, but I'm going off the assumption we're still at the 30 monster threshold, which in my eyes kind of balances the whole thing out. The thing is with that change I'm trying to lower the 'ideal stack number' to 15 without neutering ff's power. Once you hit 15 you start accruing damage and healing slower that current ff and it starts making stack farming less and less favorable. And in the sadly common extreme case of 30+ stacks it's pretty much actively punishing lack of game participation.

JingerbeardmanApr 24, 20141 votes

added a new idea I thought of as well as some item wording to the original post. Lets keep the discussion Going everyone!