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Talking about Pantheon : trying to improve his theme and identity.

Yfrappefort·2/9/2014, 5:50:34 AM·4 votes·936 views

We all love him. He's the manliest champion in the league. Our one and only spartan. Pantheon !

Pantheon is a champion I always liked, especially thematically. He trow spears in your face. He slam you with a huge shield. He impale you with swift trusts and finally, he's so godlike that he can jump at you from the sky!

However, even with all that, there are a few things that prevent him from shining like a real spartan in the fields of justice. Not only does he suffer from an identity crisis (fighter or assassin?), but his kit also puts him in a weird place. I'm not a pro Pantheon player, but I really like the champion, and will try to explain why he's having a hard time the best I can. The thread will be divided between these two subjects :

  1. The problems with Pantheon's identity (fighter or assassin?)

  2. The problems with Pantheon's kit (the main cause of his "feast of famine" problem).

1. Mantheon : Fighter or Assassin?

When you look at Pantheon , you think of a spartan, aka a fighter who will fight you to death without fear. His passive tells you just that. The more you interact with your opponent (via AA or abilities), the more you focus on the fight and get ready to block incoming damage. It feels good. Then you look at his Q. Damn right, he trow his spear! Makes you feel strong. Then you look at his W. Oh man, big manly jump with a slam in the face. It even makes you harder to kill.

Then you look at his E, a channeled spell, that contradict both his passive (which promote AA) and his W (why would you close the gap between your opponent to immobilize yourself right after?). Then there is his ultimate. It can be used for many things : initiation, map control, escape, cutting the path, etc. But does this scream "assassin" or "fighter"? Neither, if you ask me.

The problem with Pantheon is that, like Diana, he's semi-fighter and semi-assassin, meaning he's not very good at any of them.

When you think of an assassin, you think of a target going in to do high burst to a high priority target, hopefully kill it, then escape (Khazix ,Leblanc or Zed to name a few). Pantheon fails to do this, since he can only go in and most of his damage (his E) can be interrupted easily by a single CC.

When you think of a fighter, you think of someone who can go in a fight and last quite a while before dying (Garen , Renekton , or Jax to name a few). Sadly, Pantheon is quite squishy (even with that huge shield) and, generally, he will die a few seconds after going into a fight, regardless if he does manage or not to kill his target.

So what direction should Pantheon take? Fighter or Assassin? I personally think his theme scream "fighter" and that it would fit him way better then assassin.

2. The problems with Pantheon's kit : feast of famine syndrome

For those who play Pantheon a lot, you know that, when you get a lead, you'll crush anything. But if you fall behind, you are gonna have a really tough time. Main reason is with how his kit works. He is strong early, at his best during mid game, and falls off hard into late. Let's take a look :

Passive : Aegis is honestly one of the most interesting part of Pantheon kit in my opinion. Good managing of the block can easily turn a duel in your favor, especially when coupled with the refresh from W. The problem is, the passive only block one AA, and becomes more and more obsolete as the game drags on. It makes Pantheon quite dangerous at tower dive, but is very weak in team fights.

Q : Ah, the spear shot. Feels great when you throw it. Feels bad when you are on the receiving end, since it's a point and click. Thanks to that, if Pantheon gets a lead during the laning phase, it becomes a painful experience for his opponent, who can't do much or get destroyed by those 4 sec CD spears. On the other end, Pantheon is using mana, and any champion with shields/sustain can resist his harass until he goes oom, and then Pantheon is screwed. So it's either he crush his opponent or he get crushed.

W : This is Pantheon gap closer/hard CC. It's one of the only skill in the game to combine both. While it's very good to get to your target, it leaves Pantheon completely vulnerable after, since he can't get out. The skill also does not refresh on kill/assists like most assassin, so Pantheon will rarely kill more then one target per fight, unless he comes late and assassinate them, and this leads us to...

E : The passive part of it is what makes Pantheon one of the best "clean up" champion and the main reason he can be considered somewhat "assassin" in the first place. You will pretty much always kill anyone under 15% health thanks to 100% crit on AA and spear shot. The channel part is his main source of dps in team fights. Problem is, it's a channeled spell, and it's very hard to place a full channel in many targets without getting interrupted. Coupled with the fact that Pantheon can't escape after engaging, it puts him in an awkward place during fights. He is quite easy to shut down, and I think a spartan should feel more "durable".

R : Last but not the least, the mandrop. This ability is a real problem. It's Pantheon's signature move, yet it's probably what is holding him back from getting any kind of buffs. It's good and weak at the same time. If you can land it, it feels great, but most of the time you won't, since it has a long channel time. If you get ahead in your lane, you can help other lanes snowball just the same. If you fall behind, you can try and change the outcomes of other lanes, but then you are too weak to actually kill anyone. Globals are a pain for balance, really.

Let's picture why his kit is a problem, both when he gets ahead and when he falls behind. This is assuming the best and worst scenario.

Game 1 : Pantheon is fighting top VS Nidalee. He gets ahead by getting her low with Q spam, followed by flash/stun ignite and E execute passive for the kill. Nidalee is then forced to tower hug, since his spears hurts so much now she can't even move. This allow Pantheon to roam other lanes easily with his global ultimate (mid or bot) and wreak them. Suddenly, all lanes are fed and there is little hope left for the other team.

Game 2 : Pantheon is fighting top VS Renekton. He try to poke him low for the all-in, but Renekton is too tanky and keeps healing. Pantheon then run out of mana and can't do much. Jungler proceed to gank him and they kill him easily, since he got no escape. Pantheon failed to have a lead during early game, and it will only become worst, with how his kit works. The team then proceed to blame Pantheon for being useless and melting instantly in fights without being able to kill anyone.

Pantheon is either too good or too weak. Regardless of that, I think he is a bad fighter and a bad assassin, since his kit is half baked in both aspects.

Recently, Riot started discussing a lot about reworks, so I was wondering how we could change Pantheon to make him more satisfying both to play with and against, as well as to choose a path for his role. This would also allow him to be more cohesive with his lore/image.

TL;DR Pantheon role needs to be clarified to better reflect a fighter or an assassin (I personally think he should be a fighter), and his kit reworked to reflect either of those paths and to fix the issues he is currently facing with an half baked semi-fighter/assassin kit.

Let's talk about how we can improve Pantheon !

Don't forget to +1 and share thoughts if you want more discussion!

6 Comments

PhoenixSlayer132/9/2014, 6:07:21 AM3 votes

Half-baked eh?

Well, he did always want to be a baker...

On a more serious note, I'd agree that Pantheon should be pushed more towards a fighter role. A theme between the Mt. Targon champs is that they're all-in and don't have easy ways out of a fight.

I think we need to really build on the shield and spear combo in his kit. He should have defensive options to block attacks while being able to deal piercing damage at a short range.

Crimson Hatchet2/10/2014, 10:46:01 PM2 votes

They need to make panth more durable similar to current day vi. Here we go, Firstly: Make him weaker at start for more balanced gameplay thruout. Second: Ditch his channel/E for something like a deals 10% of targets max health in physical dmg. Or a passive that gives panth armor pen. Thirdly: His ult is just so lame. As a Spartan it should be a shield wall or a Giant Spear throw or just lower the cd on it. Finally: Make his spear throw an arrow or indicator so that it doesn't dominate and minions can block. So in other words a Tanky Nid/Vi champ

Atanchan2/12/2014, 7:11:20 AM2 votes

I don't think 0.75 seconds is really that interruptable unless you just have constant bad luck.

Regardless, your points are valid. I don't think the Mandrop needs to be changed, personally, as it's less used for its damage and more just plain to combo into his W, isn't it? Sure, the full Mandrop damage into W must feel awesome, but it's hardly essential.

Making Spear Shot into a skill shot would allow for a lot more counter play, for sure, and would allow Riot to put more power into it somewhere ( probably just the range ). Heartseeker Strike has a lot of options.

One could be a attack steroid that makes his autoattacks basically do one round of what the current spell does, just without stopping him more than the autoattack already does. Maybe put a limit on how many autoattacks it can be used with per cast? It'd be harder to aim to hit multiple people, but Pantheon's current kit screams single target damage anyway, regardless of if he's an assassin or bruiser.

Another option would be something akin to Yasuo's Q - another skill shot, just shorter range and far faster. Give it three casts before it goes on cooldown, then make it deal bonus damage on the third hit that hits a target. It'd be closer to the name than the "stab everything" ability it is now.

I think those are the two abilities that need to be mainly considered for some Mantheon patching up. Not that the rest of them couldn't do with some looking-at, but I could see all three of them with just some numbers changed if the Spartan got reworked.

ReelBigDan2/14/2014, 8:42:30 PM2 votes

I think all Mantheon really needs is a lower mana skillshot version of his Q and an ult that's nearly pure utility. And no free action before landing. That's just mean.