What makes a support?

Kikirino·Jun 21, 2014·4 votes·3,417 views

Why can't just anyone support?

Malz has a silence and a dot he can safely use to harass and a suppression ult.

Ashe has a free vision ability, permaslow AA and a cc ult.

Heim can zone with his turrets.

Anivia has a wall, stun and ult slow.

Jarvan has an AS steroid, a knockup and a slow.

Ryze has a stun and good poke.

Galio has a slow, a MS steroid, a shield and a AoE taunt ult.

Lissandra has a lockdown ult, AoE cc (I think was a support at one time... might be a bad example)

But you see my point. Why can't these Champions be played as supports? What does it take for a Champion to be labeled 'support'?

31 Comments

RiotPhreakJun 21, 201412 votes

What players typically use is "I can do useful things even without farm."

I don't expect Corki or Draven to ever be used as supports, simply because their "base utility" is not high enough.

The secondary requirement is being able to stomach the 2v2 laning phase. Champions like Annie have decent base damage and a good stun. She lanes pretty well. Morgana can pretty easily acquire gold and moderate harass with Tormented Soil while also having good trading/picking power with Dark Binding.

HemiPoweredDroneJun 22, 20141 votes

I'll dispute Corki and Draven because they do still have some utility. I've tried it and it works, not well, but you can make it work.

The only champions that truly, absolutely can not support are those with no utility at all and are just damage or selfishness, like Katarina or Yi.

xXRainmakerXxJun 22, 20141 votes

me and my friend go bot, i'll pick TwistedFate and he picks Katarina we play safe till lvl 3 then the feeding of !! after the lane phase with a fat kat i can go get more farm then we win the game

Angry MonsterJun 21, 20146 votes

Their are 3 types of supports

Off mage. The lux/annies of the world that are going to be a late game source of damage.

Mage Supports usually have have decent early game numbers is some sort of damage that turns into scaling CC Morg or Sona with her ult.

Tank support just have to get beefy so almost any champ can fill this role.

The problem is that ADC players are not comfortable/ able to play without someone helping to peel in team fights. When u take a non tradtional support u are not looking to protect the adc but make a play for the team.

Not all champs are good for supporting though. Ashe is a good example of a feast or famine champ as a support. Her ult is not great unless used a close o\to max range but then u are not there for the team fight. Needs to build expensive damage items without have a real income source. champs like this just do not make good supports

FFirebranddJun 22, 20142 votes

Ashe actually does make a good support. She doesn't need to do damage to be useful. She is however pretty much the only ADC who can pull off supporting well.

ManchetteJun 22, 20149 votes

Ashe has:

A stun on a 100 second cooldown.
A slow that will leave you out of mana since you have to reapply it constantly.
A 3 second ward.

I'm a support main, and I feel the need for more than this to support correctly.

ThaddeusMikeJun 22, 20143 votes

That's the most minimal way of putting it. It would be just as accurate to say

The strongest stun in the game
Permaslow
CV on an ability

Whether or not you think she is a good support is one thing, but citing as evidence things like "a 100 second cooldown" while leaving out the "it's a 3.5 second stun with global range" is dishonest and adds no value to the conversation.

ManchetteJun 22, 20143 votes

Alright, it was bad form for me to downsize Ashe's strengths. For that I apologize. I do however remain by my word. To give light, I would like to compare Ashe's potential usefulness as a support when opposed to a different support's potential usefulness.

Ashe:

A 3.5 second stun and 50% movement speed area of effect slow on an 80 second cool-down (R at rank 3)
A toggle-able permanent-slow which detracts 35% of a unit's movement speed for 2 seconds (Q at rank 5)
An area of effect slow which detracts 35% of the first struck unit's movement speed for 2 seconds on a 4 second cool-down (W and Q at rank 5)
5 seconds of revealed area with the missile traversal revealing the area for 2 seconds on a 40 second cool-down (E at rank 5)

Karma:

A 1.5 second area of effect slow which detracts 25% movement speed from the units on a 5 second cool-down (Q at rank 5) or a 50% movement speed area of effect slow on a 36 second cool-down (R at rank 3)
A 2 second root on a 12 second cool-down (W at rank 5) or the same thing with a heal which replaces 20% of her missing health on a 36 second cool-down (R at rank 3)
A 4 second shield that also gives the unit a 60% movement speed bonus for 1.5 seconds on a 10 second cool-down (E at rank 5) or a shield that does the same thing to all units in the area of effect on a 36 second cool-down (R at rank 3)

It is difficult to quantify the usefulness of a shield over vision, or one ability over the other. It is, however, easy to understand that the more one ability will do, the better it will be used. Karma has three abilities that all do multiple things. So do Janna and Nami. Anticipating Ashe's kit and defensive or offensive capabilities while one of them is on cool-down is extremely easy. Either she will slow you, stun you, or reveal you. Additionally, only the slow is in available use.

This places her at a disadvantage when opposed to other supports who retain their abilities in extended fights. With Karma, she will either slow you, root you, or shield someone, and they are all in easy access.

Ashe would be a better support if her ult and vision control were on shorter cool-downs. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

ThaddeusMikeJun 22, 20143 votes

That's a good and useful breakdown. Seriously, I think you get at why she's lacking compared to more normal support picks.

I think there might be a way to take advantage of her level 1 strength in some sort of cheese strat. I don't even know what it would be, but I feel like it's out there for someone to find. But barring that, I do agree that she's not a strong support pick.

ManchetteJun 22, 20142 votes

I think that an Ashe support would be great against a team without any gap closers, minus flash of course. A 35% perma slow to ALL struck units can be devastating in that effect.

FFirebranddJun 23, 20141 votes

I would say you are missing a few major points in Ashe's favor.

Vision is OP when used correctly. There's a reason S3 supports bought almost all wards.
Ashe's passive and W give her a ridiculous amount of poke at level 1, probably only rivaled by Karma's Q2.
Ashe has a 600 AA range, only 3 champs have more range than her. Can you say free poke?
Ashe is WAY more mana efficient than any normal support, since Q won't be used much in lane, W is only 60 mana at all ranks and E is free. That with the previous point make her much better at outlasting her opponents than most supports.

ManchetteJun 23, 20141 votes

I understand that these applications are of great use to Ashe, and my breakdown glossed over them, however I would like to clarify that I compared Ashe to Karma in a way that did not take proper application into account. I made the assumption that each champion would be played with the same skill level and thus their skills would be applied properly, without delving into the in-game mechanics.

I also stated that comparing vision to shields and the like is extremely difficult, thus each should be compared in their respective roles and not compared at all. As each are used in their own separate, overpowered ways.

Ashe's own personal poke may be powerful early on, however how do you compare such a thing to a pull, knock-up, or stun? All of them have the potential to catch someone out and have their ADC do all of the damage, which is their job in the first place - not the support's. Establishing lane dominance early is what many supports do; Ashe is simply one of them.

Free poke? Not really. The champions you will be facing usually have that range or more. Not counting their spells. You will be trading, not poking.

Ashe's Q will define her lane. It will be how you escape the ganks and it will be how you chase a won trade. You will always be using it, because otherwise you take away 1/4 of her supporting power.

Her ult costs as much as any other, meaning that big plays will still rely on her keeping track of her mana, like all supports. Simply ignoring this fact will set you behind, and possibly get your carry killed. Combined with your Q and W which you will be using constantly to keep your opponents slowed, Ashe is a difficult support to play.

I understand that unique scenrios can be conjured up, and the use of her skills and why they are useful is important, however the use of other champion's skills are also important. Things happen in-game. People outsmart one another and mess up. That is why I presented my points as if the counterpoints were just as valid. Ashe is a good support, but only in her style of supporting. She has a niche, and to say that her specific niche is the best is simply dismissive of all the other styles.

FFirebranddJun 23, 20141 votes

Where exactly are you getting that the champs you will be facing will have equal or more range? According to this http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range there are a grand total of two champs that outrange Ashe and two that match her range without the use of abilities. Also 600 range makes the whole AA the carry while they are last hitting much easier. Another fun fact... Volley has a ridiculously long range of 1200. That is way higher than most supports' poke abilities.

Her Q is important but you really aren't going to have it on for every single AA. The simple reason for that is you simply don't need a slow on every shot. Just like ADC Ashe you use it when you need it and turn it off when you don't. Having it on all the time IS a good way to drain your mana, so you don't do it. This is especially true since usually your harass pattern goes AA->Volley or Volley->AA, either way you don't need a slow on the AA because Volley will slow them.

I'm guessing your point about her ult mana costs is in response to my point 4? If so I would like to point out that ults don't make a huge difference for mana efficiency (outside of a few champs) because their cool downs are very long, meaning that won't drain you dry of mana.

EDIT: I'm not saying Ashe's specific niche is the best. I'm just saying she offers quite a bit of power when taken support, more than you seem to be giving her credit for.

Doominator10Jun 22, 20141 votes

As one who played support ashe a bunch in normals,

Build mana regen and cdr. Poke in lane. Smile at 38 second ashe ults at max cdr

ManchetteJun 22, 20142 votes

The same could be said for any support, though. Build 40% cool-down reduction on Karma and you have a 15 second multi-use ult without subtracting her passive. Give her Mikael's Crucible and she will never run oom, either.

12talesJun 21, 20143 votes

Supports are effective 2v2 laners who function throughout the game with minimal gold income.

Alternatively, supports are champions who aren't completely and utterly outclassed by Thresh.

More specific champion choices are generally informed by the meta at large - in a lane swap meta, ranged supports are more valuable. In a meta with tank junglers and top laners, supports without initiation are able to compete. In a meta with immobile, squishy hyper carries along the lines of Twitch and Kog'Maw, hard engage supports like Leona and Annie are particularly valuable.

TulareJun 21, 20143 votes

I don't know what it takes for a champion to be labelled as a support but I frequently try different champs in the role. Ashe support was actually a thing for a while there. I play Galio in support more than I play him in mid. I see Lissandra there from time to time and she's effective.

For what it's worth, you've also forgotten Urgot and Aatrox. Urgot reduces his target's damage with AA's, shreds armour with his E, and has a long-range, point-and-click slow. Aatrox has a good poke that also slows, a dive with a knock-up, and loads of sustain as long as you don't mind pushing the lane.

ElJanitorFrankJun 21, 20143 votes

I've seen everyone you just listed used as support. But for most of them, they need some CS or kills to be relevant. It's a waste of potential for a lot of people. Galio for example, he's an OK support, but he gets so many benefits from actually getting kills and CS that it's wasted potential. And a lot of the poke (I.E. Malzahar) have a lot of potential to take the kills accidentally.

KhmeraJun 22, 20141 votes

Side not: Galio used to be listed as a support way back when gold items were not implemented and such (worked then not so much now), not sure if he still is. But then a lot of champions were listed differently to fill roles, since we were under 100 champs in game.

NortwinJun 21, 20142 votes

Anyone with good CC can be a support, but there are always better options.

What does it take for them to be labeled as support? Diamond players meta. Support Gragas demonstrated this.

JiviraJun 21, 20142 votes

<3 Support love! Your team makes a champion a good support. If the team works with the support instead of flaming them, then there are many fun options. (This is a game after all, so being "the best" isn't the only option.)

MackleDogeJun 21, 20141 votes

It isn't just about what the champion kit has for laning. It also needs utility and the ability to function well off of limited gold or less levels. Also need to take into account the way that the supporting champion works with the carry roll of the lane, you can take a good carry and a good support and still get a bad lane because they don't work well together.

That being said, I've had Anivia, Ryze, and Galio support before and all of them knew what they were doing and how to lane with me as those champions. In those cases the Galio support was great throughout the game, and generally I like getting a Galio support if it fits the team composition. But in both the Anivia and Ryze support games, they fell behind really hard and became completely useless. Ryze had no farm, no money, and none of the items he needed to be effective, so he became nothing more than a ward slave and a free kill for the enemy team. The same thing happened with the Anivia supports, but in that case they could at least bring the stun and utility of the wall.

ShinjusukeJun 21, 20141 votes

Just wanna go on record as saying I've won every game I've played as Malz support (granted that's like under 10, but)

There's too many people who think they're "pros-in-the-making" yet won't play anything but what pros play.

A few champs make great supports, pros just don't risk money on them.

12talesJun 22, 20142 votes

The difficulty with Malz support is that all of his abilities push the wave when used for harass (sometimes uncontrollably), which makes it really hard to pull the wave unless he just stops using abilities for a while. Also, he doesn't offer very much pre-6 in terms of kill pressure - almost all meta supports have the ability to lock someone down in lane, and lacking that ability gives your opponents a lot of freedom to push and trade aggressively. Also, ADCs tend to rage when your voidling steals CS.

I think a lot of meta champions- what the pros play, I guess - are so popular not only because they're powerful, but because they're versatile. Thresh can set up picks, engage and disengage teamfights, peel for your carries, and reposition anyone who gets caught. There are a bunch of off meta supports who can set up picks better (Blitz), engage better (Annie), or disengage better (Janna), but most of them can do only that one thing, while Thresh can function in every situation.

In my opinion, the issue with "X and X champion can jungle/support, they can do Y really well," is that you fail to appreciate the things you're giving up to do that one thing really well. For instance, Jungle Leona is super fun and has brutal ganks, but her clear speed is awful and she straight up can't jungle if she dies at level 1 or something, while a champ like Elise has slightly-less-brutal ganks but also relatively good clear speed and good 1v1 (and consequently, the option of counter jungling). The same idea holds true for stuff like Malz, Donger and Lissandra support.

The Bored FrogJun 22, 20141 votes

Honestly the only reason I dont like malz as support his ability to restrict enemy movement is on his ult... I typically for my supports like a readily availble movement stoppers so my adc can destroy them I personally main xerath supp and secondary of leona and if those two are unavailble in rank ill play zilean supp... the problem that annoys me is everyone going "oh my champ has cc I can supp" I disagree with this statement.... while yes the champ CAN but it will be much less efficient... like I firmly disagree with ult cc because how are you going to hand your adc kills prelevel 6 which is a very important time of the game

Penguin EclipseJun 21, 20141 votes

For me, a support must have a heal/shield of their own (items do not count.) Otherwise I do not consider them a support and will not play them.

12talesJun 22, 20141 votes

Braum, Leona, Zyra?

I guess Braum and Leona have literal shields...

Linna ExcelJun 22, 20141 votes

Phreak has a pretty good definition - works well without farm and can survive in a 2v2 lane. I think I'd add has CC as well.

IMO as of now Ashe probably can support with Essence Reaver and Hurricane. Figure that keeping 3 champs on permaslow isn't bad. And if she can get fed enough to build a damage item to be an off ADC, even better.

Anivia is I champ I asked about before and has a major problem with mana issues I've been told.

Ryze probably could support, haven't tried it tbh. I don't think he'd be able to build enough items though to be effective... he needs mana.

No one plays Galio.

Lissandra probably is too item dependent to be a support. I haven't looked into her.

ShinjusukeJun 23, 20141 votes

I think, of course, if you play Malzahar support like any other support, no, he definitely falls short. But that's like playing Garen as an ADC and expecting results.

Malz is a good support in the respect that he, if played right, and with the right ADC champ pick, can force the other laners out easier than most any support I've encountered. His pre-6 peel is obviously lacking, but, if you're taking mana regen runes and rushing a chalice (buying wards to compliment obviously), peeling shouldn't be much of an issue.

Pre-6 guide to Malzahar support:

Max his E, and let your ADC decide when they want to push, or when the wave is nearing tower. Cast E on frontline minion, have your ADC push it through the wave for fast clear, zoning enemies away from their CS, and an added point of focus for the enemy laners.
Assuming you know ADC ranges (which you should if you're doing ANYTHING off-meta in bot lane), place your W where the enemy ADC will have to stand to farm, forcing them to another position or away from CS altogether. They will almost always avoid the pool pre-Bloodthirster, and if they don't they eat free damage.
Each time you zone with W, try to wiggle into range for an E if you know you won't be using it to push off your turret sometime soon/push their turret. Furthermore, if you know getting into E range is too risky, harass with Q instead. If nothing else, you buy a second or two of time that might force the enemy ADC to miss a CS trying to dodge the delayed skillshot.
Always go for an E when your passive is up, or if you're able to chain a Q-E-Passive onto the ADC. You force them to waste SOOOO much time trying to avoid or kill that little minion.
Before 6, you probably won't kill their duo, unless they engage on you while your Q is up (a really stupid idea). The point is not to try to kill them, the point is to try to force them off cs and out of lane as much as possible, which is very often as Malzahar.
If they DO engage hard on you pre-6, it's either situation A) Where no amount of peel was going to save your 100hp adc who's in a bad position, or situation B) Where as soon as they do, burst the hell out of their adc. If your lanes are going even, you will more than likely scare away the adc, allowing you and your adc to focus down their hard engage support, or get their adc so low while they've got their kill vision on that they're going to have to either recall or B immediately. If it's a hard engage that separates from their ADC to do it, like Leona or thresh for example, you'll have to make the decision whether to Q the support if they are a threat, or Q the adc so they can't close in. Usually, you'll Q the adc unless the support is way out of position.

After 6, obviously, it's just free kills all day if you time your ult right. Wait for a hard engage from their support (as only a few ADCs can stop Malz's ult), and ult the support for a free kill. Or, if their support has little in the way of stopping your ult or is too far away, ult the ADC when they're in a poor spot.

Some sidenotes:

Malzahar with the CDR to spam up Voidlings as they die can solo dragon, you require Chalice to do so. If you force out your opponents, and you have (IIRC) 20% CDR and chalice, you and your ADC can solo Dragon without any HP loss.
Malzahar with most of the usual support items (and yes you do need sightstone whenever you play a support) and a DFG can still burst down or almost burst down a champion. Learn your damage numbers, your picking power is very strong.
You still even as a support have some of the strongest pushing power in the game, and you don't even have to take CS to do it. When they're out of lane, if you and your adc wanna push, you can chunk their turret each time they have to B.
NOT ALL ADCS are good with Malzahar, don't pick him first unless you know your adc and don't pick him wihtout it being a good ADC matchup for you. Draven (riskier), Ez, Jinx, Luc, Ashe, Cait, and Corki are good adc's to lane with.

Remlap1223Jun 24, 20141 votes

To be able to play a champion as a support they need to do 5 things.

Be able to harass and at least soft CC the enemy
Be able to function on little farm
Be able to boost some aspect of the ADC's kit
Be able to utilize a support build effectively
Be able to do enough damage to secure a kill for an ADC, but not steal it

If they fall under that criteria, they can support. It's for the same reason I detest Annie Blitzcrank Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Kayle and Teemo support. Although I really shouldn't talk since I play Gangplank support quite often, and he's my main pick in ranked. I also enjoy Nautilus , JarvanIV , Shen , and Yorick support as well.