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I want to talk about Talon

PlasmaPuffball·4/5/2014, 10:22:32 PM·8 votes·371 views

I want to discuss Talon's current state in the game and why I think he needs some sort of change. Now, before I say anything else, I just want to say that I absolutely adore assassins and their playstyle ( I mainly use Khazix, Fizz, Ahri), but I will admit that they have had problems in the past in terms of balance. Talon, right now at least, has a lot of those problems I feel at the moment. I don't exactly play Talon that much at all, but I do once every so often, and every time I do, I run into the same thoughts. I'll try to break it down as organized as possible in regards to each of his abilities and each phase of the game (early, mid, late).

Mercy (passive): Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.

First, his passive. I have to say, it is probably one of the most unsatisfying passives in the game, at the moment. Maybe not as unsatisfying as say...Sion or Fiora, but it's still down there. I have many complaints with this passive. One of the first that come to mind when I read it is, "Why does it not work with Silences?" If it had silences listed, then I would kinda understand because of Cutthroat. But that isn't really the main issue I have with it. I just don't see how it contributes anything to his kit. In fact, it seems like it kinda goes against it. You could say, "OH, Rake slows, right? So with Talon, I just slow them and auto attack them a few times." While it seems nice in theory, in practice, it doesn't really work out that well. And I'm not going to buy a Frozen Mallet on Talon anytime soon. Now, before I say anything else, I want to make something clear: while AD Assassins do have a lot of damage from abilities, like Khazix and Zed, a lot of their damage is through auto attacks as well. So I could see why this is a passive. Especially if combining with Noxian Diplomacy. But in practice, Talon pretty much tries to all in with E -> W -> Auto -> Q reset -> R. Cutthroat already amplifies ALL of his damage. Why does he need a passive to amplify only autos if Cutthroat does it better with ALL abilities and no need to have random forms of CC applied that aren't a part of his kit? Mercy contributes pretty much nothing to Talon's playstyle in any phase of a game and goes unnoticed. It also has a problem of not having any real gameplay attached to it. Like...a lot of current passives made nowadays have some form of interaction. Taking the most recent champ, Vel'Koz, as an example. He requires 3 abilities to proc his True Damage, which requires you to weave in spell comboes and land skillshots. Talon is just "I'm going to auto attack you." Not really much interaction with players or requires any form of thought. I may have rambled about his passive for too long, but it really does bother me.

Noxian Diplomacy (Q): Talon's next autoattack within the next 6 seconds deals bonus physical damage. If the target is a champion they will also bleed for 6 seconds, granting sight of their location to Talon and taking additional physical damage each second for the duration.

Now, I really have no qualms with his Q ability. I think it's actually pretty neat and helps him out a bit. It's an auto attack reset that scales pretty well and does a good amount of damage, both on-hit and over time. It does a lot of damage combined with Cutthroat, helps push towers well as an added bonus, and the whole bleeding thing kinda goes with his "Blade Assassin" kinda thing, at least to me. But, regarding the tower pushing aspect I mentioned, that is something I'm going to get back to later when I talk about his gameplay in phases of a game. It kinda bothers me, but not on the scale of his passive.

Rake (W): Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him, dealing physical damage to any enemies it passes through. Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end. Additionally the enemy is slowed for 2 seconds, refreshing the duration of the slow if they are hit twice.

Rake is Talon's bread-and-butter ability, I would say. It's definitely the most used, and is his way of farming. However, I do have some problems with it. Probably the biggest problem is the mana. I know Talon has had some adjustments way back in the past regarding his mana costs, but it really shines with this. And the thing is, it's not even THAT good of harass compared to all of the others mid lane champions. How does Rake compare to say, Zed double shuriken harass with Shadow Slash, plus he's an Energy champ? How does Rake compare to Lulu harass? How does Rake compare to Ziggs poke? I'll get into more of how much I hate his laning later on, but that's just the beginning. Rake is an overall fine ability to me in regards to farming and scaling. But it just seems...outdated, I guess? When I think of Talon, I think of an overall lack on interaction with players, he's either "I KILL YOU FROM 100 TO 0 AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT" or "I TRIED TO KILL YOU FROM 100 TO 0...but I failed, used everything to kill you, now you just turn around and kill me..." More on that later.

Cutthroat (E): Talon instantly appears behind his target, silencing them for 1 second and amplifying his damage against that target for 3 seconds.

Oh boy, I hate this ability, but I love it too. This is one of my biggest issues with Talon, and one of my main reasons I think he needs work done on him. I feel like it's such an unhealthy ability for the game and for some assassin like Talon to have it. It's a 700 Range, instantaneous gap closing silence. Oh, and it also amplifies all his damage. Now, the instantaneous gap closing silence sound familiar to anybody? Hmm...oh wait, Kassadin just got a rework right? He had a silence. And his Riftwalk happens to be 700 Range as well. Now, before I say anything else, I'm definitely NOT saying that Talon is anywhere near on the scale of Kassadin. Kassadin's jump didn't need a target, and his silence was longer. I'm merely saying that the core gameplay aspect is very similar in that it prevents your opponent from doing absolutely anything when you jump on them. Cutthroat's silence is only 1 second compared to Kassadin's 2.5 seconds was it? Something like that. I actually don't remember. :P But 1 second is actually enough time for Talon to get his full rotation of spells off. So what do you do when he Cutthroats to you? Nothing, you're silenced. There is no counterplay to it. Well, guess you're dead then. BUT, on the other side of the coin, what if you're Talon, and you're kinda behind or don't have the damage yet. You Cutthroat to them, fail to kill them, your abilities are all down, and you have no escape. So they just turn around and burst you down after you can't 100-0 someone. He's very binary. Sound familiar as well? Lemme take a quote from the recent patch notes:

"Old Rengar's problem was that he was binary in design - he either got ahead and blew up squishies without recourse, or he fell behind and split pushed indefinitely, relying on his stealth for safe escapes."

Now, Talon can't split push nearly as effectively as old Rengar, but it was exactly the same thing. He either just ran around and just killed squishies no matter what and they can't do anything because of a range, gap closing silence that amplified damage, or he failed and died. In which case, he can just farm a side lane and use Shadow Assault as an escape, kinda like Thrill of the Hunt. And his Noxian Diplomacy is pretty good for pushing towers. Not as good as Rengar's old Q though, that's for sure. Another quote from the patch notes:

"While we like to support emergent strategies for champions, playing Gragas like a long-range mage created some very imbalanced situations where either he could one-shot his opponents (success) or he couldn't (failure) and therefore became more sad than drunk."

Talon isn't a long sniping mage or anything, but the situation is pretty similar. Once again, you either one shot someone and succeeded, or couldn't and failed. Except you're melee squishy, so you die. I know that Cutthroat was intended to be like the classic "Assassin comes outta nowhere and kills you" kinda thing, but it's so unhealthy the way Cutthroat is designed.

Shadow Assault (R): Talon disperses blades outwards in a 500-radius ring and gains stealth for up to 2.5 seconds while gaining 40% movement speed. When Talon emerges from stealth, the blades converge on his location. When the ring of blades expands and contracts, enemies hit receive physical damage. Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

Now, along with Noxian Diplomacy, I think this is a pretty good spell. It fits Talon's theme of being a "Blade Assassin" pretty well. It was designed for him to kill someone and escape while doing so, I think. Except I feel as though it's not used for that. To really kill someone as Talon, you kinda have to use both the blades flying outwards and converging to really kill them. Which means you can't really use the escape mechanism of the spell to actually escape. Sure, if you get caught out of position or something, you can just use it to run away, but isn't that like old Rengar too? Old Rengar ult made you get to a squishy and kill them instantly, but you couldn't get back out, so you just died because you have no escape afterward. Shadow Assault is kinda the same. You have to use it to kill someone, then afterwards, you don't really have a way to get away. But they're also similar in the fact that if you get caught of out position somewhere pushing or whatever, you just use it to run away. Except Talon's is on a much shorter cooldown. So while I like the abilities theme, it's not really that spectacular in use. It can do a lot of AoE Physical Damage in a fight, and with Black Cleaver it can shred armor for AD Teams, I guess. There's some utility in it. Although I do admit, disappearing in a ring of blades as a stealth assassin feels pretty badass.

Early game

What does Talon do in lane? He's a pretty weak laner, to be honest. He pretty much has to go mid lane. He can't survive top against bruisers like Renekton, Shyvana, and Irelia, let alone kill them. I'd say he's best against squishy mages, mainly because of his silence. I guess that's his niche? Killing squishy mages? As an AD Assassin? Oh wait, Zed exists. And so does Khazix. What does Talon have over them? Talon in lane trades with Rake, but that eats his mana. And his all in before 6 REALLY eats his mana, seeing as it's E -> W -> Q. Not only that, but he's vulnerable afterwards. Not only to ganks, but the enemy mid, after the silence ends, can just return the damage. Zed harasses with double Shurikens and Shadows Slashes from a disance, and Khazix has much better all in damage, if isolated, and doesn't go out of mana nearly as easily as Talon. Talon's early game is pretty easily managed by a lot of champions these days because his harass and all in isn't up to par. Given, assassins should have a weak point to exploit, like Fizz laning before level 3 is probably the worst, and Akali's pre-6 is one of the worst things ever. I feel like Talon needs to get ahead to be useful though. He doesn't contribute any sort of utility to the team like other assassins do. He has no utility in his kit. Khazix has vast reset potential, can take objectives fast, has more reliable escapes, more versatile in jungling or mid laning. Zed has much safer and cheaper wave clear and is one of the best split pushers. Akali's post-6 is one of the scariest of assassins in terms of all-in, and she has reset potential and is a much stickier assassin, and Fizz is one of the slipperiest guys in League, extremely mobile, Shark is amazing in fights especially in enclosed areas, and his damage in repeatable and extrememly high. Talon is like...I try to burst down this 1 person and hope it works. His laning gets outdone by several other assassins, he gets beat in lane by several other champions, and he doesn't contribute anything if behind.

Mid Game

So what does Talon do once laning phase is over. He can roam pretty decently actually. His kit has tools to pick someone off easily. His Cutthroat prevents squishies from doing anything if he catches them out, and he can try to assassinate them. Then if that works, his team can take an objective or something. But if he's behind, what does he do if he can't assassinate someone? I guess he can push with his Rake and Noxian Diplomacy on towers, then if they try to catch him, he Shadow Assaults away. But if you want a Split Pushing AD Assassin, why not pick Zed, who's dueling potential is much better and waveclear is faster? This goes back to where does Talon fit in the game. Too many other champs block him out, I feel like. He doesn't really have that "niche" that a lot of other champions have. And he's much too binary in what he does. Either you do it or you don't. And he ALWAYS has the same combo, no alterations in it. It's not like LeBlanc in which multiple different spell comboes can exist.

Late Game

So teamfighting and Baron is a big deal now. What does Talon do? Well, in teamfights, he can dive into the backline and assassinate, or just use his ult for AoE Phsyical Damage and potential armor shred with Black Cleaver. And I guess his AoE is good for fighting in Baron/Dragon pit and jungle areas. But how does he survive teamfights? He can't weave in and out of combat like Fizz/Khazix can. He can't teleport to Shadows like Zed or go into a Shroud like Akali. He can't Distort in and out like LeBlanc or dash 3 times like Ahri. And Katarina, if she gets resets going, just Shunpos everywhere. Talon is EXACTLY like Old Rengar in teamfights: Assassinate one person, then die. If you can't assassinate them, then they live and you STILL die. It's a very unsatisfying feeling to know you're going to die no matter what you do. And once again, it's binary and not really interactive.

So to end all of this, a summary. I think most of Talon's problems lie in his passive, Cutthroat, early laning phase, teamfighting ability, and his binary playstyle. I'm not going to say he's unbalanced or anything. I just think his kit is unhealthy for the game in some areas, mainly Cutthroat, and he needs work done to not be binary and unsatisfying. Not saying he needs to be a priority or anything, because I know Fiora, Warwick, and Sion is being worked on. But eventually, I feel like Talon needs some love, not necessarily buffs or nerfs, just kit changes.

8 Comments

Oh The Humanatee4/6/2014, 7:30:11 PM3 votes

Riot has mentioned some of this before; Talon represents a significant challenge because of his lack of counterplay. You hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head when you talk about Cutthroat; he jumps to you, you're silenced, and now you're either dead or you aren't. If Talon is ahead, you die. If Talon is behind, he's probably dead.

That was the essence of the post I saw (CertainlyT? I can't remember for the life of me who posted it). The extreme lack of counterplay makes it necessary to gate Talon's damage using high mana costs (Rake) and binary decisions about his ult (engage, or escape). If you boost his damage so that it's worth hitting with, like Rake on release date, Cutthroat makes his laning presence oppressive.

Me and my friend were talking about this kind of thing the other day; utility, damage, cooldowns, and cost are sort of the four factors that seem to 'balance' abilities. Fiddle's fear deals no damage and costs mana, but it's utility and cooldown are pretty sweet for it's effect. End sum, 'Terrify' is a spell that shows how you can balance a skill that costs mana (1) but deals no damage (2) while providing utility (3) on a moderate cooldown (4).

We're nerds. So sue us. :P

Anyway, the problem with Talon is, just like you and others in this thread have pointed out, is that his kit is unsatisfying/done better by others in 4/5 cases:

  • Passive? Not without a Frozen Mallet, thanks.
  • Q? Not bad, but kinda dull.
  • W? Why not just use Zed?
  • R? Do I use this to kill . . . or escape . . .

And, like we've pointed out before, the problem with tweaking/buffing these elements of his kit is that his leftover ability, Cutthroat, negates counterplay. Instantly blink to the enemy mage or carry, brutally execute them, and then die yourself. Even if you're significantly ahead, most of Talon's power is built into the utility element of his E; the ability to single out and ravage the enemy squishy.

My conversation with my friend, combined with some of the other feedback in the thread, (and other places) makes me think along these lines;

We (Other Talon players and I) really like certain things:

  • He's a true assassin. If you're the squishy, either mage or carry, you shiver at the sight of Talon. If you're the bruiser, tank, or peel, you're not worried about Talon. You're worried for your carry/mage.
  • You also shiver at the "non-sight" of Talon. His ability to disappear mid-fight is a fun mechanic, even if it is a little sloppy at the moment.
  • His single target damage and reveal effect (on his Q) is a lot of fun. When people bolt into the bush (but leave a trail of blood, so you can see them) . . . very iconic. Very satisfying.

What the aforementioned sub-group tends to dislike, though, is already outlined above:

  • Most of his power (visible or invisible) is stacked into Cutthroat.
  • His Passive is largely unused, and invisible when it is effective.
  • Rake is unsatisfying (at least at early levels), and makes little sense; why is Al'Tair Ezio Talon using blades that magically reverse flight? Why does it slow? Why is it's base damage underwhelming? Why is it's mana cost so high?
  • Shadow Assault isn't an 'assault', strictly speaking . . . most of the time, it rotates in last on my combo, so that I can use the stealth to escape.

So, how do you fix that? I mean, I'm not Guinsoo (welcome back, by the way :) ), but the way I'd push it is:

  • Put the damage amplification and utility from Cutthroat into Shadow Assault. I don't envision the numbers moving laterally across, but imagine this:
    • Shadow Assault: Talon marks a target enemy champion. For 6/7/8 seconds, he is invisible to the targeted enemy unless actively dealing damage, gains 30/40/50 movement speed, 35/50/65 additional AD, and deals 10/12/14% increased damage to the target.
    • This loads the damage amplification from Cutthroat into Shadow Assault, which can justify being on a longer cooldown and costing higher mana, while freeing up his basic skills to receive buffs in utility and damage.
  • I'm pushing the character limit. Grr.
Jay Kenton4/6/2014, 1:20:51 PM2 votes

I agree 100%.

Honestly, when I think about Talon, I think about a real Assassin from Renaissance, well, he is Ezio Auditore, after all.

But his kit does not satisfy this style.

First of all; I do not understand why an Arab/Mediterranean Assassin should kill with Boomerang-blades. It reminds my Batman Batarangs but actually it also works different...well honestly it reminds me some Ninja-Naruto secret chakra technique and I really don't like it.

The second issue is that his kit do not enphasize how much Talon should work with environment and guerrilla tactics. He should move a lot between bushes, between minions...making feel the player faster and smarter than the opponent. ATM Talon is all just about derp-bursting and flashing away, or maybe builindg him with Infinity Edge and Frozen Mallet trying to be a "Light fighter" like Fiora and splitpushing all time destroying towers.

What I would like on Talon:

  • Very low CD stealth; no damage within, just stealth, but activable only when you are unseen by enemies (just like Kha'Zix...powerful when unseen and more instance of stealth in a row). Like if enemies have vision of you, your R skill can't be used (also useful to find wards on the map).
  • A totally new passive that should work with DoT (Assassins use venoms) or just burst damage on the next AA after exit from stealth (just like Kha). A the same, his Q shouldn't work on towers. I mean...Q is supposed to be like the Sneak Attack from the DnD Rogue. And it doesn't apply on "dead things" (like Towers).
  • A new mechanic for the rake. Being way more like an unpredictable knife-throw, and not like a magical yo-yo. The way works the new Heimerdinger's seems fine to me.
  • A mechanic that give him the chance to move between units like Janna, Fizz and Kassasin.
LetsEatNachos4/5/2014, 11:48:31 PM1 votes

Very well said. I completely agree with you too. Many people say that he is over powered, which, on paper with a gap close, stealth and silence, it really does look like it. But as a Talon player, I can attest to the fact that often I am left standing with my pants around my ankles after doing a combo. He is very "Okay, now what?", if that makes sense. Thanks for the in depth post. You obviously put a lot of thought and time into it and I really appreciate that.

Sire Hippington4/6/2014, 12:25:51 PM1 votes

I mostly agree with u and I'll just copy paste a previous post about talon from me:

I still feel like talon could use some love, he still is a one-trick pony that either doesn't realy work or destroys enemies without counterplay if he works.

His burst has no counterplay, so it shouldn't be buffed or he would be straight op, but there are other points to be improved. While his upfront burst is pretty strong, he offers little beyond that, he got no fallback pattern like other assasins. Most assasins either finish of targets or take them down by hit-and-run due to high mobillity or invis and low cds, talon totally lacks this, he prettymuch got a hit and die kit, either his enemie dies, or he dies, he can't realy retread and strike back short after, he either retreads, wasting the second dmg part of his ult and sitting on long cds afterwards, or he stays, hopes that he can somehow stay in meleerange for a second Q, mostlikly dieing(talking about clash, not 1v1)

So overall, Talon could eventuelly need a small nerf to his burst [B]but[/B] his suvivabillity and dps in fights needs to be improved, so he's not as devastateing if ahead, but more usefull if behind and in extended fights. He also needs a buff on his mana, it realy hurts seeing him struggling with manaproblems after faceroling with zed for waveclear+poke without real downside.

I think a good option to reduce the burst slightly would be takeing away the dmg ampplification of his E, makeing it easier for talon to asume his burst while reduceing the singletarget burst a bit. Another option would be to allow reaktivating the ult or attacking only after 1 sec, so the target got some time to react and can counterplay the burst, cause mostly i findmyself doubletapping the ult for quickburst within the 1sec silence, cause the ult invis doesn't realy offer me much especially with red trinkets or pinkwards around(atleast an iprovement compared to oracles though).

His Q is fine as it is imo

His E should be allowed on allys aswell, and either have some sort of reset mechanic(most assasins have that on their gapcloser, kah and akali reset on kill, zed gets cdr reduced if he hits with his E), or get less cd on it. The step itself does no dmg and wouldn't even amplify, so i doubt it would be to op.

His W could use some less cd, like 10/9,5/9/8.5/8sec

His passive doesn't realy fit alot, he does that AA+Q, and thats about it, he's not realy a AA focused champ. If it would count for skills aswell, it would fit, but an increased burst would be bad as i stated befor, so i don't think it has any place in his kit

As for a new passive, there are a few ideas

-Give him some health/mana upon kill/assist, increasing his suvivabillity in bigger fights -Give him a huge speedboost and ignore unit colission upon kill/assist for a clean get away after succesfull assasination -A passive that gets stacks some how(for dealing dmg, or getting dmg, or hitting skills) that triggers at reaching fullstacks(or any other event that could make sense) and gives some short invis(would make him very vulnerable vs stealthdetection as his Ult already has a stealth component

Befor someone says 'OP!', it sure would need pbe testing and adjusting, but thats nothing we can do here in the forums

TL;DR: Talon needs to get improved, but his burst can't be buffed cause it lacks counterplay, so he needs improved survivabillity(disengage or mobillity or tankiness or sustain) and more dps(less cds),but as he is now he either destroys totally or he's useless.

cablaz4/6/2014, 3:52:55 PM1 votes

Talon main here, I completely agree, its either you win lane and assassinate their ADC and die, or deal damage to their ADC and die.

His laning phase is pretty bad with mana costs, and pre-6 extremely susceptible to ganks. Even post-6 he has to either use his ult to escape ganks. However; his ult is around half his damage gone.

RogueFlameHaze4/6/2014, 5:45:53 PM1 votes

As much as I love playing talon I have to agree