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Morgana's Snare length is just too long. Especially for its range/hitbox width and damage.

ChickenWrap··22 votes·11,677 views

Fiddlesticks has a 3 second fear? Nerfed. Rammus has a 3 second taunt? Nerfed. Morgana has a 300 + 90% AP damage nuke that prevents you from moving that has the range of a Nidalee spear and prevents you from moving for three seconds? Balanced.

Is that balanced? This game has evolved a bit. Almost every champion now has a gapcloser. The snare does not need to be three seconds long for how far away it can be cas from and for how much damage it does. Morgana has become pretty much a "support only" champion only occasionally being put in the mid lane. Do you want her to be a support or a mid, Riot? She can't have a kit that lets her excel at both. That's the exact problem with Lulu that you're still trying to work on. I thought you said you were moving away from things like the three second snare, saying that only things like Ashe arrow should be anywhere near that powerful due to how hard it is to hit. This is understandable. I see that Morg's snare is not just a point and click, but it is still extremely easy to land, and can be cast from an extremely long range. This kind of damage should not be linked with this much of a utility ability that can win fights before they start even if the entire enemy team is grouped together.

What I would suggest is to reduce her snare to 2 or even 2.5 seconds and reduce the AP ratio to 60% down from 90%. Let her keep her range.

Alternatively, reduce the range down from 1100 to 850 or so, and reduce the damage dealt from 90% to 80%.

Both these changes will make her far more bearable.

Anyone else have any suggestions?

79 Comments

cshakes5 votes

I agree with you on the Q; however, I'd like her shield to get a nerf, too. Either making the shield's value less or its duration less. Comparing to other supports' shields: they're both 5 seconds in length, but while Morgana: 95 / 160 / 225 / 290 / 355 (+ 70% AP), 5 seconds, immunity to CC Janna: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 70% AP), 5 seconds, up to 50 extra AD Karma: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 50% AP), 4 seconds, up to 60% MS for 1.5 seconds Lulu: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 60% AP), 6 seconds, Pix-enhanced autoattacks Thresh: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+40% AP), 4 seconds, multi-target (lantern)

Notice a common theme? Apart from Thresh's lantern, all other ally shields are 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 plus AP. Morgana gets 95 / 160 / 225 / 290 / 355 and the highest AP ratio. Personally, I'd nerf her shield's length to encourage using it for clutch saves rather than just tossing it at someone and making them immune to everything. Barring that, nerf the strength so it can actually be broken.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I think they should actually nerf the durations of all shields to put some more emphasis on the reactive character and not make them such no-brainers in almost any circumstance. Right now there´s really no way to counterplay shields, you just have to bruteforce through them...

The Slad2 votes

You neglected to mention that her shield only blocks magic damage. An adc or bruiser would just ignore the shield.

EDIT: you also didn't take into consideration the cooldowns. Morgana: 23-15 (9 with 40% cdr) Janna: 10 (6) Karma: 10 (6) Also karma can amplify her shield to speed and shield her whole team. Lulu: 10 (6) Thresh: 22-16 (9.6) As you stated Thresh is an outlier because his also has the pull feature.

Janna, Karma, and Lulu have standardized cooldowns and different AP scalings to match their kit. Morgana's is longer to match her shield's greater potency.

cshakes1 votes

Well, yeah, but that just means that it's an effective 5sec CC immunity unless your AP carry sends a spell that way. And with a lot of AP carries wanting some CC to guarantee skillshot hits, you can probably see the problem. If only physical damage could reduce it (even at half effectiveness?).

Marthian4 votes

I think the biggest issue (And a starting point) is how she point-blanks you with her Q for no risk/high reward for Morgana. I kept throwing the idea around my head on making it scale similar to Xerath's E. So it would be short (and deal little damage) if she point blanks it, and up to it's current (or less) values the further it goes.

To be honest, Morgana might need a rework. She has quite possibly the easiest access to gold out of any support since with Spellthief, since it has a sizeable AoE, long range, and Procs Gold PER damage tic. CC is strong, but she's practically the only champ that can reliably ignore CC or allow someone else to. I think her ult is fine since it has a bit of risk for everyone involved.

Luner Hunter2 votes

ahh but shes not a support so there is no reason to rework her but to rework the supports into something that can be used IN THEIR OWN DAMN ROLE

Marthian1 votes

If she's not a support then why is her secondary tag support? And a majority of games Morgana is in, she's being played bot lane?

Luner Hunter4 votes

lmfao you sound like you just got your ass stomped by a morgana and are crying about it on the forums! Her Q is just fine it has the majority of her damage loaded onto it and the rest of her kit depends on landing that Q pre-6 and team fighting with her piratically ignores her Q unless you're not flash-R-hourglassing... if you dont want morgana to Q you maybe you should invest in a item 3102? or reduce the time with item 3111 or even use item 3139 or item 3140 any reduction in the stun time would have to come with a damage buff as she HAS to have them Q'd to stick them into her W for the duration which has the OTHER HALF of her damage in her kit through out the whole game sure you can ult but that has a 60-200 second cooldown where her Q and her W are her only sources of damage... so stop QQ'ing (oh the irony there) about her Q and learn to dodge some skill shots and build some items :o

EDIT : she's a mage not a support but shes played as a support like zyra use to be and annie if rito ever did anything but nerf supports you'd probably see something besides AP midlaners bot! :O

Marthian3 votes

So essentially just like pre-work Nidalee? Because you literally pointed out the same issues Nidalee had.

Because all her damage is in her Q isn't a good justification for it's current state, especially since unlike Nidalee's spear, it roots for 3 seconds and deals a ton of damage no matter where it lands, so it's extremely frustrating when she point blanks it and you couldn't do a thing.

Luner Hunter1 votes

err... i don't recall ever 1 shotting an ADC with morgana's Q or ever witnessing an ADC getting 1 shot... not to mention 2 shotting tanks but sure lets go with your wild off the wall comparison? not to mention nid's spears at point blank did a FUCK-TON of damage and did EVEN MORE the farther way so you cant compair a nid Q to a Morgana Q they dont even have the same functionality...

EDIT better nerf rengar again with that jumping-on-you-then-deleting-you ult, oh noes Yi ult and Q T^T, dat point blank Fiora ult you cant do shit about either, that pointblank Q from yasuo that knocks you up and lets him ult you better get nerfed too, oh and what about that pointblank facerolecombo of fizz's? and lux getting a Q bind like morgana that binds not only the FIRST target BUT ONE BEHIND IT?!?!

Marthian3 votes

Her Q is just fine it has the majority of her damage loaded onto it

That was what people kept justifying Nidalee with.

and the root is what kills people.

Luner Hunter1 votes

its also the majority of the offensive utility in her kit besides her ult :O where as nid could just R and get 3 more abilities that were just as devastating as her Q

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Old nid never reasonably got a chance to use her cougar abilities because she was so squishy, it was too dangerous.

You're missing OP's point. Yes, it's the majority of offensive utility in her kit. That doesn't mean it's not OP; it does mean that the power in her kit needs to be redistributed a little bit.

ChickenWrap6 votes

I have had a beef with Morgana since Season 2. I've had more of a beef with her since she's immune to the CC changes that FId and Rammus were hit with, both of which could be fixed by the "invest in a Banshees buy a QSS" argument. She is more of a utility mage than a burst mage based on her W, E, R, and hell, even her Q, which all also have great scaling. her Q already deals 300 + 90% AP. Reducing the snare time would NEVER warrant a damage buff. It's already extremely powerful. Fiddle didn't get a damage buff on his Fear for the reduction, nor did Rammus on his taunt. Actually, he got a damage nerf with his taunt. Her Q has the hitbox of a barn. It's not the easiest thing to dodge. Just like LeBlanc's E.

You can not sit here and play Morgana constantly and seriously think that her Q is balanced. I've played Morgana. I enjoy playing Morgana, and I know that Morganas Q is through the roof in terms of power latched on to one skill that's extremely easy to land.

Luner Hunter3 votes

i'll say 2 things here if you're constantly landing your Q's the people you're playing vs are bad and can't dodge skillshots for shit, and 2 her Q's root duration is as long as it is to help her W do as much damage as it can for the duration because no one just stands in a morg W to give her free damage. "utility vs burst" is all a manor of how you look at her kit her Q and R burst like a mofo and her W mid to late hurts like a SoB 150-200 dmg a tick depending on your HP and her AP just because she has a snare on her Q and a stun on her R doesn't mean she's a utility mage by default and as a midlaner the E is a unique skill to morgana which makes you have to either bait it or suffer from not being able to CC her or do as much magic damage as you would without her having it

ChickenWrap4 votes

Then make her W hit harder. Her Q being a 3 second snare is too long just to "help her W deal more damage"

You just said yourself my issue with her. her Q and R deal WAY too much damage for the utility they provide. She can lock somebody down for a solid 5-6 seconds. Landing her Q late-game (which is very easy) is a death sentence to anybody who is hit by it. 3 seconds is a lot of time to be unable to flash away from 3-5 people all beating on your face after the Morg Q.

To be totally honest, it seems to me like you know how strong Morg is and are using how strong she is as an argument not to make her weaker, which is a really, really bad idea.

Luner Hunter1 votes

nah i'd be willing to say she was "op" if she was OP everything she does besides ult depends on her Q and if we're talking about late game and morgana is that much of an issue shouldn't you have built some MR and tenacity? not to mention if you get caught late game near 3-5 of the other team isn't it your fault? (didn't ward? your fault! to close to the other team? your fault!) and if you didn't itemize vs a huge threat who's fault is that? what i'm seeing here is "rito pls nerf cuz i don't want to have to itemize VS AP midlaner with CC" were as getting slowed and knocked up and knocked back by a Orianna has yet to be mention by you where it has the same results her ult knocks up (enabling yasuos ult) AND knocks back (toward the her ball in the middle of the ult) where you can't flash at all either! :O oh noes! nerf that too! what about zyra's root? cass ult? how about galio or hecarim's ult where you can't do jack shit for the duration? the last 3 i mentioned can all be at pointblank range too! OH NOES! all these things have the same exact outcome of you or multiple members of your team being left unable to move or otherwise defenseless if you fail to itemize VS them or dodge the skill :O it sounds like a QQ thread about hard CC more than morgana's Q is op "hard cc 2 stronk plz nurf"

ChickenWrap4 votes

Actually, I don't want to have to build an entire item or two just to deal with a support champion who's almost a 100% pick or ban choice.

You keep trying to defend her as a mid who can deal a TON of damage AND CC you to hell and back. Your argument is all kinds of flawed.

If you are not going to actually contribute to this discussion, I would like to request that you leave. Right now all you're doing is making a fool of yourself.

ChickenWrap2 votes

Also, there is a reason that I specify Morgana in particular and compare her to Rammus and FIddle in regards to her CC.

I have no issue with hard CC. I have an issue with Morgana's hard CC and how it's allowed to remain in its current state as a three second bust damage snare

Luner Hunter1 votes

rammus is a tank/AD jungler (more armor = more AD) and fiddle is an AP jungler where their roles and map pressure are VASTLY different and they don't have to worry about the AP midlaner they are trying to kill flashing under their tower for a safe get away during the laning phase like morgana does... A good jungler ganks when the lane is pushed to your team's side not the other way around...

ChickenWrap2 votes

FIddlesticks was a largely contested support pick when his Q was nerfed, and that's WHY it was nerfed. He was the first to be nerfed.

Once again, this is a discussion about support Morg and her Q. Not about midlane Morg.

Luner Hunter1 votes

you're acting as if they aren't one and the same which they LITERALLY ARE! if you nerf support morg's Q you nerf midlane morg's Q which is why they are having a HELL OF A TIME nerfing LULU out of top/mid lane ...

Tiropat1 votes

You know that when they nerfed support fid the nerfed jungle fid as well right?

Luner Hunter1 votes

Jungle fid did not suffer as badly as mid morg would suffer from support morg getting nerfed

Luner Hunter1 votes

she is a mid that can deal a ton of damage AND cc you to hell and back which is why you're all crying about her Q's damage and CC being to strong... or did i miss something there in the OP and your concurrence with the OP? i would love to know how my argument is flawed aswell? my point was to point out that her Q ISNT THE ONLY ability that will fuck you over if you get caught by it (lux has the same Q + an additional snared target that points flawed how?) I AM contributing to this discussion however i happen to have a totally different opinion than you and not joining in on the "rito plz nurf morg Q" which you're seeing as not being constructive but thats you're issue not mine :|

EDIT: Itemizing vs "support" morg bot is just like itemizing vs an AP mid morg but with FQC + sightstone in her build AND i'm sure there will be another AP in the mid if not one top or jungle aswell (1 ap champ teams are rare) so you're not only itemizing VS morg but the other AP's on the enemy team aswell... but if you don't wanna do that then again it's your fault...

ChickenWrap4 votes

Lux snares for 2 seconds and has a smaller hitbox, IIRC.

Also it deals less damage, so there's that.

I do not have an issue with her W, E, or R. I have an issue with her Q. It is too powerful for one single ability. I am not upset with you for having a different opinion. I am upset with you or arguing about her midlane when Morgana mid isn't an issue, and is actually relatively bad right now (until, just like support Morg, she lands a Q late-game and wins the game, which is extremely easy).

Your argument is that Morgana's Q is good because it has so much attached to it. This isn't the way to argue something. That's the entire problem with the skill, and is easily fixed without making her bad.

Luner Hunter1 votes

Lux Q 2 seconds times 2 targets + damage times 2 targets = 2 targets screwed for a total of 4 (2+2=4 right?) seconds combined or am i wrong?

My argument is that Morgana's Q is decent and if you're smart you stay behind minions, dodge or itemize VS her and you don't have to worry about her Q for another 5-8 seconds where you can either proceed to smash her face in or run away, also her Q isn't as destructively powerful as you make it seem a maxed Q does 300 flat + 90% ap before Mpen (increase) and MR (decrease) is calculated looks like a huge number but having something as simple as merc treds cut it down by ~40% mid to late game since MR's dmg reduction scales so easly ... so thats 180 flat dmg + 90% AP times .4 = dmg granted though there is a need for better tenacity items :|

ChickenWrap2 votes

bit.ly/19qwSYJ

You still don't understand the issue here.

Luner Hunter1 votes

links broke o.0

ChickenWrap1 votes

Copy and paste it.

Luner Hunter1 votes

i did my mozilla brought me to google where it said "did you mean?" lol

Hyrum Graff1 votes

oooh, that's a wonderful site

cshakes1 votes

Actually, 1st target gets 2s but the 2nd target only gets 1s of snare, so only 3s combined. 1st target gets hit with 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 70% AP) damage, the second target with half of that. Lux's shield's size is also smaller. 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180 (+ 35% AP) vs Morg's 95 / 160 / 225 / 290 / 355 (+ 70% AP)

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, the totall damge of lux Q is still higher than morgs, and her shield can shield twice and on aoe while beeing on way less cd.

Don'T get me wrong, i don't agree with Luner hunter in any other way and i'm all for a nerf of morganas snare duration, but i think the damage isn't to problematic on it.

And lux shield honestly is just as broken as Morganas, it can shield tons of damage from ur entire team, but therefor morgana grants cc-imunity

cshakes1 votes

Lol, all my teammates always dodge my shields as Lux. :P Point taken, though.

MrSc0tty2 votes

I have had a beef with Morgana since Season 2. I've had more of a beef with her since she's immune to the CC changes that FId and Rammus were hit with, both of which could be fixed by the "invest in a Banshees buy a QSS" argument. She is more of a utility mage than a burst mage based on her W, E, R, and hell, even her Q, which all also have great scaling. her Q already deals 300 + 90% AP. Reducing the snare time would NEVER warrant a damage buff. It's already extremely powerful. Fiddle didn't get a damage buff on his Fear for the reduction, nor did Rammus on his taunt. Actually, he got a damage nerf with his taunt. Her Q has the hitbox of a barn. It's not the easiest thing to dodge. Just like LeBlanc's E.

You can not sit here and play Morgana constantly and seriously think that her Q is balanced. I've played Morgana. I enjoy playing Morgana, and I know that Morganas Q is through the roof in terms of power latched on to one skill that's extremely easy to land.

Actually, as an avid Fidd/Rammus player, BV doesn't do shit against us. Well just throw a crow or powerball into you to pop dat ass.

Morgana has to either blow her pool, or ult to pop it. It's a really hard counter-similar to BV against blitz crank. I almost always rush it against Morgana

tau431 votes

Maybe something amazing will happen and they will return to the Mid lane.

Luner Hunter1 votes

hopefully :|

Meep Man4 votes

Look to counter problems that face you. The problem with Fiddlestick's and Rammus' fear and taunt were that they were instant and undodgeable. I'm still curious about Rammus a bit, but I see why for Fiddlesticks. The reason why Morgana's was kept so long is due the fact that it's projectile speed is slow, therefore being able to be dodged. Therefore, it can be whiffed. Maybe reduce the damage slightly, but it doesn't deserve many nerfs.

Earl Eulrich7 votes

Just because sth. can be dodged doesn´t mean it should be gamechanging strong, especially if the user doesn´t put himself at any risk by missing it. It´s just like Nids spears pre rework...sure you could dodge 99%of them, but the only thing you gained by dodging is the ability to try your dodging ability once more a few seconds later. With that logic you could create an ability with the hitbox of 1 pixel and horrible slow, but instantly winning the game if you hit it and call it balanced.

The Slad2 votes

bit.ly/1eeN29d

ChickenWrap2 votes

I mostly want the range reduced. If not, nerf the time it snares for.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Riot MADE a thread on the forums titled "A Champion Ability Does Not Get to Deal Damage AND Have a 3 Second CC", with the in-post text "Unless your name is Enchanted Crystal Arrow, because you're awesome". We are not asking for much other than consistency. If that is Riot's balance philosophy that they have gone as far as to share with us, then they should stick with it. Update her kit.

Remlap12232 votes

The reason? Enchanted Crystal Arrow is an ULTIMATE. it's also Ashe's only form of hard CC. And it's slow. And scales with distance traveled.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I totally agree that her Q shouldn'T last 3 sec, and i think Morgana could use a slight rework, as her Blackshield is even worse than her Q imo. No non-ult skill should have a cc lasting for longer than 2sec(besdies slows). 3 sec with no mobillity at all is simply death for a squishy in a clash. Also, CC-imunity for 5 sec on demant for anyone doesn't fit into lol, it throws over the balance and screw cc-focusedstanks and hard-initiation.

I think her Q duration should be 2sec all ranks, and maybe adjust her cd to 12/11.5/11/10.5/10 sec from 11all ranks so she still gains increased utillity from ranking it. Her W could simply deal the same total damage over 4 instead of 5sec to balance out the 1sec lower snare, and her ult could gain 0.5sec shorter leash-duration till the stun. This way she wouldn't rely that much on Q anymore and have around the same all-in effecktivity like befor on her own.

Her E however could get reworked into a spellshield(like sivirs, just that it also can be cast on allies) that grants a damgeshield if popped. That way she would grant cc-imunity, but could bloack a crucial cc-skill with the right timing, or simply block away damage. if not reworked, the E should just get a much lower value and duration to offer some more counterplay.

I also think that all shields need a lower duration, like 2sec, so they are realy used reactivly to respond to damage. Currently, there is no counterplay to most shields as they have a nearly 100% uptime(most shields have 5-6sec duration and with 40% cdr a 6sec cd). That means u either don't do anything, or u burst through the shield makein it simply a increase of effecktive hp ur enemy has to burn through withno further interaction

Luner Hunter1 votes

so you're saying an on-demand CC immunity is OP? then can we get rid of Fizz's troll pole and vlads sanguine pool? her E is unique to her no one else has a TRUE spellshield they are more ability shields than anything else as they can block AD abilities such as a Darius pull or Jinx's chompers but dont shield from magic damage... and her shield IS USED TO RESPOND TO DAMAGE! someone comes to gank her(or in the case of support morg her ADC? pop'd her E to prevent her/her adc from taking a ton of damage due to being CC'd in a bad spot she/adc still takes the AD damage but can prevent some of the AP's harass/CC from the jungler/adc/support! AP mid is going to try to burst her or a team mate? POP E TO PREVENT THAT SPELLDAMAGE

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Though the bigger trouble still is the Black Shield. It´s an ability that would fit better into Dota than LoL...just countering every CC there is and therefor most Initiation, winning a lot of games all by itself. So I think Morgana really would need a full rework, currently her kit is waaay to powerfull in most Situations, and mostly low risk -> high reward (stand back, wait for a binding to hit ->profit, no fear of getting initiated on while q is on cd due to massive waveclear+BS).

Sunfield3 votes

I respectfully disagree.

Morgana is no worse than Thresh or Blitz in terms of her core kit. And having some ultimate counter to cc is a cool thing, much needed if you ask me Vi. Removing it would be removing diversity and it could possibly kill many team comps using immobile champions.

The problem lies in Q's hitbox and mana cost

Earl Eulrich5 votes

Removing it would be removing diversity and it could possibly kill many team comps using immobile champions.

Dunno, right now i tend to remove it by just banning her. It´s not really diversity if only one Champion has access to that incredible power (and you really cannot offer it as an item - just imagine a malzahar that can make himself cc immune everytime he wants ot channel his ult, or a Katarina).

Sunfield1 votes

I ban her as well, the mana costs on her and Q hitbox are just borderline stupid.

But a kit rework is definetely not needed. There is nothing gamebreaking with her, its just that her numbers are silly. Compare her Q which has respectively similar power to Blitz's and Thresh's Qs and compare mana costs of all 3 abilities.

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