Is nobody else sick of stat ball champs?

The worst combo is high floor, low ceiling, because mastery doesn't offer any results. Being easy to pick up and play is not really a problem, as long as there's a way to prove yourself as a better player.

Kinda like Garen?

just gonna comment here because people dont seeem to be getting whats Phreak meant by skill ceiling and skill floor

someone who is easy like Garen (thank you papapudding for the quick reference) will have a very high floor because the skill floor actually measures how effectivley you can use a champion with little to no practice. and with garen this coulds be your first moba and you could get a good understanding about how to play him.

the skill ceiling measure their potential effectiveness if you were to master every aspect of their kit. yasuo for instance, knowing when you can dash to dodge rather than putting the wall on cd to block.

TLDR the skill floor represents where one starts out on the path to master the champ. and the skill ceiling represents how much more they can learn through practice before they have mastered that champ

But it's possible to have non-binary, high skill floor champs. There's tons. You mentioned Sona, for instance - her squishiness and low mobility give her a clear weakness you need to compensate for, and a truly godly Sona will express skill late game by landing a perfectly placed ult. You get beaten by a strong Sona, and you can say "I had clear opportunity to beat her, which I failed to take advantage of, and she clearly outplayed us by catching us all in her ulti".

Same thing with Garen. Or Malphite. Or Ashe. Or Annie.

But when Udyr has been AFK farming jungle for 30 minutes, and he comes out and says "Hi, Im a melee autoattack with faster move speed, attack speed, health, a slow cleanse and an on hit stun ins come straight at you and tank all your damage and still kill you with a grand total of one right click while mashing all my abilities" that's a bit of a silly design. Balanced? Yes. You sure had a hell of a lot more jungle pressure than his team early. Actually good design? I'm gonna respectfully disagree.

Wow, we have opposite definitions of skill floor. The way that I've always interpreted it is that a champion that you can use somewhat effectively without much knowledge, like Sona, would have a LOW skill floor. Meaning that the base amount of skill you must have to play her decently is relatively low. A champion like Yasuo would, with how I look at it, have a HIGH skill floor, as the lowest amount of skill you must have to use him effectively is relatively high.

I think I'm not alone with this interpretation, as this is why I believe most people seem to use the term skill floor and skill ceiling (or cap) interchangably, as often a champ with a low skill floor will tend to have a lower skill ceiling, while champs with a high skill floor also tends to have high skill ceiling. That being said, skill is really objective and I see it more of as a curve rather than a straight line, with the difference between a decent Yi or Sona player and a master is far more visible than the difference between a decent Zed or Orianna player, as a decent player using a high skill floor champion will already have fairly high skill, with the differences coming down to lots of subtitles that you may not see unless you are a regular player of the champion.

I'll agree with you that his skill ceiling is in a good place, but sometimes I feel like his skill floor, along that of other super easy champs like Tryndamere and Teemo, are too low for the power they have. There doesn't have to be an equal relation between power and skill, but a champ that can 100-0 someone with little input seems like poor design to me. Also, because of the high damage they can output, they seem to teach many players a rather selfish playstyle, especially since many of the low skill champions have very little team utility. This ends up being more detrimental to their own team as they get to levels where players will be playing more team oriented champions, something I don't think is ideal. These low skill champions should be used to teach players, give them a feel for the game and strategies, but it shouldn't completely leave things out. Sure, not teaching players orbwalking is fine, but teaching them as if it's a single player game does not seem like the way to go.

I'm probably also a little biased in that I tend to hate a lot of the low skill floor champions because they're so dreadfully boring to play. This could be attributed to my ADHD-PI, I'm thinking, because I'm just bored to tears by unengaging champions like Yi or Teemo. Same thing makes jungling difficult for me, I can't pay attention because farming the jungle where doing a camp doesn't require me to, as it would be impossible, to constantly be aware of one or more other champions so I can know the exact moment I can attack them or predicting what they are going to do is really boring. The AI gives me no reason to pay attention to the camp I'm clearing, and there's no way I can instantly get somewhere in order to react to something or initiate, most of the time early seems to just be spent walking between camps or to the different lanes, don't know how anyone can enjoy that.

Might or might not be intentional, but I feel like you missed his point. Am I right OP?

Hey Phreak, you're using the skill floor term wrong. You need to be above the floor to play a champion. This is how the analogy works: If the floor is too high for you, you can't climb onto it. So Sona has a low skill floor, and yasuo has a high one. In your use it's now a problem if a floor is too low? And you could have a really low ceiling but a really high floor? Your buildings are upside down ;)

You used ceiling correctly: you will always be below the ceiling, but if it's high then you can also go high.

I don't know much about the melee champions, but I definitely agree with you about Ryze and Caitlyn. Just because they're easy to be okay on doesn't mean there's no skill in playing them. Ryze is actually very difficult to play perfectly on, you want to position like an ADC, but also try to focus squishier targets because you don't kill tanks as easily as a real ADC, and 100% kiting is not making full use of your tank stats.. You need to choose what rotation to use in different situations. And it's extremely important that you stay at max range for safety, but also are never out of range to cast a spell the instant it comes up, because your passive will bring other spells off cooldown sooner, which in turn reduces cooldowns further. If you don't optimise this properly, over the entire duration of a fight your dps will be significantly lower.

They sure are binary to counter-until they get fed. Then they become impossible to counter because they just have more stats than everyone else. A Master Yi who only takes two seconds to kill you just has to time his Q to avoid whatever hard cc you have, and there's no way to kite, fight, or slow him down. Same with Volibear, Udyr, whoever else.

You can have easy to pick up champs who have clear weaknesses, like Ashe, or meaningful windows of opportunity to fight them, like Garen. But when Udyr just becomes a guy with 100% uptime speed boost, AOE, AS steroid , and on hit stun, you can't fight him, you can't kite him for long, and all he had to do to get to that point is clear jungle camps for 30 minutes. Was there a power trade off to get to that point? Absolutely. You had a jungler for 30 minutes. Does that make it balanced? Sure. No reason brainless champs can't be balanced. Does it make it good design? I'd disagree. No matter how strong you get, you should have to build that strength through some expression of skill.

Hrms, honestly, this is the first time I have ever heard the term stat ball champs or whatever it might be. But all in all, it sounds like the same usual complaint about one champ being more OP then another. When frankly, what it all boils down to, is Skill, as a player, and as a team player. LoL has players from all different backgrounds and each one, varies in their play styles from one to the other. They get tossed into the matchmaking que and basically, it's luck, if you land with 4 other players whom either do or don't have the abilities to work well with the play styles at hand, combine that with the level of skill or mastery over the champ they choose to play.

Let's face it, any champ whom get's ahead, has boosted stats, period. Or is Fed and any Fed champ becomes immediately OP, for obvious reasons. Every champ in the game is OP if used properly and in the right situations by the player and the team. That's really what it all boils down to, is teamwork. And either, you work well with your teammates or you don't. Because you can take someone whom doesn't play a champ well, but understands the game itself and how to work with a team and still carry them to a win. How often does that happen? Not often, why? Because the moment one player makes a mistake, stupid or otherwise, the rage begins and any chance of the team over compensating for the mistake is lost.

Hell half of games lost, were lost in champ select. I think Riot should balance the players by using something or exactly, team builder to create matches, that way, roles are already chosen, and the moral of the team is less affected before the game even starts, over one person insisting they go one lane or another over someone else whom wants it, or feels they are good or comfortable at it.

And since I saw that Udyr was mentioned so much, let's face it, sure, 1v1, most champs don't stance a chance vs Udyr, however, a team that plays well and works together, can drop a Udyr like he's nothing special and move on to the next target or objective. Same with Yi and every single other champ in the game.