Please read: Olaf does not need buffs, he needs a rework.

vuduchikin··13 votes·2,224 views

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post (PBE forums seem dead lately), but I decided to give it a shot.

Riot: Buffing Olaf isn't the way to go. The issue with him is that his kit just doesn't work. It's clunky, it's awkward, it's whatever other synonym you can come up with. He needs a rework. Please consider these points:

  1. Vicious Strikes is NOT effective outside of lane (and specific dueling situations). The Attack Speed is nearly impossible to make use of during a team fight. Why? A. As Olaf, you'll be spending most of the fight running, spamming your axes, picking said axes up, and throwing in a Reckless Swing when you can. Also considering the fact that a skilled opponent will ALWAYS try to kite you, you can never stop and auto attack-- and B. Even when you can auto attack, Undertow and Reckless Swing are both channeled, so they cancel auto attack animations. With all of this in mind, Vicious Strikes is almost a dead ability in team fights.

  2. Ragnarok isn't working. I understand that you want to give opponents the luxury of "counter-play", but this isn't the way to go with it. When you're plowing through the enemy team to try and dive somebody, the last thing you want to do is become vulnerable. Very few Ultimates in the game have a drawback as major as Olaf's. It needs to be changed-- tone down the offensive aspect, and increase the defensive aspect. This needs to happen in order for him to be able to compete with other bruisers at his job. Here's are a couple possible changes:

New Ragnarok #1: Cut the AD in half (20/30/40), and keep the passive portion while its active. In my opinion, this seems like the most simple solution. He doesn't gain as much damage right off the bat, but he gets to keep his defense which helps him do his job as an anti-carry. It also makes the idea of an earlier offensive item more reasonable, since before, if you got something like a Ravenous Hydra early, you were very susceptible when you tried to dive (holy run-on).

New Ragnarok #2: Remove the AD entirely, double the passive portion while Ragnarok is active, and POSSIBLY give it movement speed (something like 15/30/45). This basically forces Olaf players to buy some sort of offensive item in order to do adequate damage. The good thing is, not only do you get a good defensive steroid during the active (allowing you to properly dive and still retaining, though weakening, his dueling potential), but you get great and MUCH-NEEDED utility through the movement speed. Many Olaf players seem to like the idea of movement speed on Ragnarok.

Please, Riot. I don't know how else to express desperation. Don't buff Olaf. It fixes nothing. REWORK him.

Reference threads:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=48528898#post48528898

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=48522786#post48522786 ^^ Suggestions.

49 Comments

Tomosima7 votes

I'f they wanna retain his current kit they need to give him these buff's,I'f not then rework him completely .

Base stat's: HP: 534 -> 554 Armor per lvl: 3.0 -> 3.8 Mana nerf's reverted

Q: Undertow: Base damage nerf reverted Cast animation removed

W: Vicious strikes: CD: 16 -> 14

E: Reckless swing: Cast animation halved

vuduchikin1 votes

Great ideas, man.

GG Beers1 votes

I don't disagree with these buffs but it seems way over the top to me. Riot needs to stop doing sweeping nerfs and buffs on champs, especially with how often they've been patching, frequent, small adjustments are the way to go.

I really like Olaf's play style as it is now, though I don't play him very often. I do get the total badass feel when I charge in.

I'f they wanna retain his current kit they need to give him these buff's,I'f not then rework him completely .

Base stat's: HP: 534 -> 554 Armor per lvl: 3.0 -> 3.8 Mana nerf's reverted

Q: Undertow: Base damage nerf reverted Cast animation removed

W: Vicious strikes: CD: 16 -> 14

E: Reckless swing: Cast animation halved

vuduchikin1 votes

I don't disagree with these buffs but it seems way over the top to me. Riot needs to stop doing sweeping nerfs and buffs on champs, especially with how often they've been patching, frequent, small adjustments are the way to go.

I really like Olaf's play style as it is now, though I don't play him very often. I do get the total badass feel when I charge in.

I have a serious question: did you play Olaf before the rework, and how much if you did?

GG Beers1 votes

I've been playing since season 1 and I've had Olaf forever, I've never mained him but I have played him a bunch pre and post rework.

I don't disagree with these buffs but it seems way over the top to me. Riot needs to stop doing sweeping nerfs and buffs on champs, especially with how often they've been patching, frequent, small adjustments are the way to go.

I really like Olaf's play style as it is now, though I don't play him very often. I do get the total badass feel when I charge in.

I have a serious question: did you play Olaf before the rework, and how much if you did?

vuduchikin1 votes

Maybe it's a case of you not having enough games in with him? Try playing him a couple times in Ranked. You'll start to pick up how awkward his team fighting is after a while.

vuduchikin5 votes

I might be wrong but wasn't he reworked into his current form on purpose? Isn't that where we get Olafed from?

The term "Olaf'd" comes from the brutal set of nerfs he received early last year (I believe). He was reworked after months of being in an awful spot and being considered the worst champion. The thing is, very little suggestions from the horde of Olaf players that flooded the forums were actually taken into account and implemented in the final Olaf iteration. He's still in a really bad spot, and Riot is testing buffs on the PBE. The thread explains the rest.

TerminatusOmega3 votes

sorry but No suggestions that were given out were actually added/implemented to smash's rework. he literally did a few token posts and threw on more attack speed. his hydra build idea was crap too

ILoveTiramisu3 votes

I agree with Ragnarok, but I still think you can buy frozen mallet. I like olaf because he is very bully in lane and still scale well. I also don't think olaf need a buff.

vuduchikin3 votes

I agree with Ragnarok, but I still think you can buy frozen mallet. I like olaf because he is very bully in lane and still scale well. I also don't think olaf need a buff.

Frozen Mallet doesn't solve anything for Olaf. If you're already on top of the carry, you have your axes (plus you would rather have Randuin's in that situation). Olaf's problem is effectively closing that gap without going through half of his ultimate duration to do so. He needs some sort of movement speed.

ILoveTiramisu2 votes

I think you means Ragnarok must give you also a mov speed burst.

SFHFWill3 votes

Olaf of lore is suppose to wade into the battle, just balls deep, with no f**ks given. This isn't the case. Right now with high mobility ADC's being the issue they will just dash away and now Olaf is in the middle of a team as a squishy bruiser. He'll die quickly without forcing much out of his opponent. The rework was to solve the problem of building full tank with amazing damage b/c he'd throw his axes at his feet and spam that skill non-stop. Now he does neither of those things. Olaf needs move speed and defensive stats on his ulti.

vuduchikin1 votes

Hit the nail on the head. Hopefully Riot will realize this.

ManDudeMcDudeman3 votes

Number one seems like the best course to take for Ragnarok, as far as simplicity goes. Olaf doesn't really need more damage, he needs a way to actually get to his targets in one piece so he can do the damage he has.

I still don't understand why Gizmo put so much emphasis on auto-attacking with Olaf, when the champion does so little of it in a fight. I know they want him to rely on attacks more, but with how he is now, he just gets his ass kicked if he tries to duke it with actual dedicated auto-attackers. Jax, for example, has SO many AA-enhancers in his kit that Olaf will never be able to straight duel him.

Olaf fights in lane by using E and Q to whittle enemies down before going HAM on them for the kill. He's always been like this - hell, he's still like this now - all the attack speed in the world isn't going to change that, because basic attacks with no modifiers are terrible on a bruiser, even with a ton of attack speed.

vuduchikin3 votes

Great post, man. Thanks for sticking with me through the past month or so-- been trying hard to get my threads noticed.

ManDudeMcDudeman2 votes

No problem, man.

Olaf's been my favorite champion since I started playing this game back in 2010 - like hell I'm gonna let him stay in the dumpster for another second if I can help it.

KSHarrison3 votes

What's the difference in moving numbers around on his ult?

If you give him less damage but make him tankier, then Olaf just trades one defensive item for an offensive item. Whatever number trade off you make, it will be compensated for in his item build and won't make a huge difference in performance.

If you want to give him MS, then just suggest giving the ult MS.

And if you land an Undertow at close range, you sure as hell aren't being kited anymore as long as your ult is up. The issue is really a universal one in that melee champions without strong gap closers have trouble being viable. That's the problem to be addressed, and it applies to more champions than Olaf.

vuduchikin1 votes

It's about not making him a glass cannon when you use Ragnarok. Plus, the idea is that he'll hopefully get some sort of AD on Vicious Strikes.

It's more placing power into other abilities. Right now, Olaf is way too reliant on Ragnarok. It's very difficult to get anything done without it. New Ragnarok #2 in particular removes the offensive capabilities of his current ultimate, which allows a bit of power to be shifted to other abilities.

Tired as hell ATM so I don't know if I articulated that well. But the goal is make Olaf less reliant on Ragnarok, but still making it s very strong team fighting tool.

Also, I'd rather be able to build a damage item and sit on that AD than have to wait for my ultimate.

KSHarrison3 votes

He's only glass cannon if you don't build tanky items, which currently you are supposed to build him almost exclusively tanky items. Hyperbole won't help your point, unless you legitimately aren't building him tanky, which is a mistake.

The only thing Ragnarok #2's number changes accomplish is it means he builds one less tanky item and puts an offensive item in its place. If it's the MS boost you want, then add that and the other changes aren't necessary.

Ragnarok #1 puts him back in the same spot as before he was Olaf'd in the sense that his ult feels like there's no counterplay.

Olaf is in a bad spot because he is easily kited, which currently applies to any melee champion without a strong gap closer. Unless proposed ult changes address this point, I don't believe there's anything else you can do with the ult that will put him in a better spot. :/

vuduchikin1 votes

I don't think you really understand.

The issue with Olaf is that you have to build him like you USED to build him, with 10x less efficiency. He is simply a body that is overly reliant on his ultimate to get literally anything done. If his ultimate was tuned to give him more utility and defense over massive offense, you could find ways to budget damage into your build. Vicious Strikes being swapped to AD would also help him a ton.

Health scaling gave him a reason to build tanky and rewarded him for it. Now that it's gone (and never coming back, most likely), he has literally no reason to build tanky other than the fact that his current ultimate forces him to.

How people don't see an issue with the fact that new Olaf builds just like old Olaf is beyond me.

KSHarrison2 votes

How is it 10x less efficient?

His ult now grants attack damage and the dps of his other abilities are more or less the same, except Q if you want to spam it over and over. Because of this, I don't see a reason why it's a problem he builds the same as old Olaf (which he doesn't, since Shurelya's doesn't exist anymore and the defensive items have been revamped since then).

It's comparing two very different scenarios. The champ is different and the items are different.

vuduchikin1 votes

You're not listening.

It's 10x less efficient because he's forced to build essentially the same (full tank with CDR thrown in the mix), except now, he doesn't have health scaling on his W. So full tank is really garbage. But since his current ultimate takes resistance from you, you are FORCED to build health and resists if you want to survive in a fight. There is no choice. You are all-in on your ultimate, and your current W is almost useless in team fights.

I'll break it down one more time.

No more health scaling on W = no reward to building tank other than the need to survive.

Too reliant on ultimate. If revamped (along with W), will make Olaf less garbage outside of your ultimate window. Also opens up possibilities for damage items when getting them early atm is suicide.

EDIT:

One more thing-- and it's really sad, so get ready.

The AD you get from Ragnarok at max rank brings Reckless Swing back up to the damage of PRE REWORK Olaf's E.

So basically you lose 30 Armor/MR to do as much damage as before. Well, technically less since you don't get HP scaling anymore.

Olaf is a broken champion and needs a rework.

KSHarrison2 votes

Are you comparing this Olaf to pre-Olaf'd Olaf? Because the original S2 worlds Olaf was plain OP.

That might be our misunderstanding.

vuduchikin1 votes

Everything I'm saying applies to post-nerf Olaf.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

It's about not making him a glass cannon when you use Ragnarok. Plus, the idea is that he'll hopefully get some sort of AD on Vicious Strikes.

You can't be CC immune and expect to turn into to Shyvana and claim it's fair or good game design, he was that before, it was a major part of why he was "olaf'd" in the first place.

Addition, Olaf is suppose to be a **Berserker ** how is an ultimate about turning you into a CC immune tank thematic at all?

His current ult is very thematic for a Berserker, he sacrifices his guard to become an unstoppable offensive power.

So, I think giving his W some sort of movement speed utility would make much more sense, something like what Don Eulrich suggested.

vuduchikin2 votes

A bit off topic, but if you want to discuss Olaf, join "Olaf Fan Club" in the in-game chat.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

If they wanted to make Olaf more of an auto-attack, it'd be cool if they made those skills reflect it.

Like instead of E being a target, the next auto-attack procs it. Now you can chase people down and tap E through the fight instead of manually targeting people and slapping them with E.

An idea. Not the best but possibly something that might work better to giving his kit more flow instead of "1/2 chasing caster, 1/2 auto-attack monster"

vuduchikin1 votes

If they wanted to make Olaf more of an auto-attack, it'd be cool if they made those skills reflect it.

Like instead of E being a target, the next auto-attack procs it. Now you can chase people down and tap E through the fight instead of manually targeting people and slapping them with E.

An idea. Not the best but possibly something that might work better to giving his kit more flow instead of "1/2 chasing caster, 1/2 auto-attack monster"

I'd rather get as far away from the idea of auto attacking on Olaf as possible.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Maybe, but then what would you do to reflect his nature as a berserk fighter?

What if vicious swings, instead of just being an AA modifier, made him swing his axes wildly at whoever was in range. The less people close to him, the more hits targets would receive (IE: One guy hit 20 times, or two guys hit 10 times, three guys hit about 8 times each, etc)

S'fine if you don't want him being AA based but if that's the case the problem also seems to be with his W, not just R. Although I totally agree R needs love.

vuduchikin1 votes

Maybe, but then what would you do to reflect his nature as a berserk fighter?

What if vicious swings, instead of just being an AA modifier, made him swing his axes wildly at whoever was in range. The less people close to him, the more hits targets would receive (IE: One guy hit 20 times, or two guys hit 10 times, three guys hit about 8 times each, etc)

S'fine if you don't want him being AA based but if that's the case the problem also seems to be with his W, not just R. Although I totally agree R needs love.

Vicious Strikes definitely needs to be looked at-- and I discussed it a bit in the OP. I didn't give any suggestions like I did with Ragnarok, but instead directed Riot to previous threads.

Honestly, the whole "Berserker" aspect of Olaf is covered nicely-- even excluding his W. Angry Viking that brutalizes his enemies with axes and strikes them down with hefty true damage. His rage fuels him through a fight and allows him to shrug his enemy's blows off (not what his current Ultimate really reflects, but hey). The concept is there-- let's give his W space to make sense gameplay-wise.

Personally, I think it just needs flat AD. Gives a lot more synergy with his abilities than the current attack speed does.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That's fine. I was just suggesting ideas. And, as you said, the actual theme is pretty well covered, it just needs something to boost it up.

vuduchikin1 votes

That's fine. I was just suggesting ideas. And, as you said, the actual theme is pretty well covered, it just needs something to boost it up.

Thanks for the responses.

MrSc0tty2 votes

I was under the impression that Vicious Strikes was mainly for jungle clearing and lane sustain and really only meant to be useful in a straight up duel when an enemy champ is coming to you with their melee power.

vuduchikin1 votes

I was under the impression that Vicious Strikes was mainly for jungle clearing and lane sustain and really only meant to be useful in a straight up duel when an enemy champ is coming to you with their melee power.

Yeah, that's the issue. It's literally useless in team fights. This would be less of an issue if auto attacks didn't reset Reckless Swing, Olaf's main source of damage. When you're not able to auto attack as much, your damage is decreased by an insanely significant amount.

Nobody's just going to sit there and let you wail on them as Olaf.

Vumsy2 votes

Auto attacking with Olaf is a pain, sure, but you ARE rewarded for doing so. It's hard to chain Q's, E's and Autos properly, but when done correctly his damage output goes through the roof.

To be honest, I have no problem with Olaf. He fits most teams, counter CC and gets countered by kiting and shield/heal/movementspeed supports. I don't see a problem with that.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

i personally think he could use some MS-buff if he runs towards an opponent, maybe on the w - but other than that he still deals a frightening amount of dmg if he can close the gap, so it shouldn´t be a no brainer. In the right comp he still can be a menace to deal with.

Mindworm Jim2 votes

I'm actually mildly surprised you seem so focused on changing Ragnarok and it's passive, when it seems to me that Vicious Strikes is far more responsible for Olaf's current status.

The extra armor and magic resist is nice, but it's pretty minor. I don't really notice the difference from when I have it or don't have it. Vicious Strikes, on the other hand, is practically a dead button on my keyboard.

vuduchikin2 votes

I'm actually mildly surprised you seem so focused on changing Ragnarok and it's passive, when it seems to me that Vicious Strikes is far more responsible for Olaf's current status.

The extra armor and magic resist is nice, but it's pretty minor. I don't really notice the difference from when I have it or don't have it. Vicious Strikes, on the other hand, is practically a dead button on my keyboard.

Vicious Strikes is a major problem, but the thing is, it can easily be fixed through a few QoL changes and minor buffs. I;E Removing the cast time on Q and E, giving Olaf some movement speed, etc.. Ragnarok, on the other hand, is just a broken, backwards, hypocritical ability.

I'd love nothing more than for his W to give AD, but it doesn't take priority over Ragnarok.

Mindworm Jim2 votes

Ragnarok, on the other hand, is just a broken, backwards, hypocritical ability.

I'm not sure I can agree with this statement. If you removed the passive from Ragnarok completely it would still be a pretty good ability. How does the fact that it gives you bonus armor and magic resist when not actively being used make it broken and backward?

EDIT :

Ah, no. That is a foolish question to ask. I can find the answer by just reading the rest of the thread. As I understand, you feel it would be better to remove the extra AD from Ragnarok, keep the defensive passive all the time, and buff the output of his other abilities. Yes?

vuduchikin1 votes

Yes, exactly. Ragnarok having defense and movement speed is the best route. Helps Olaf get in range to start spamming his abilities faster, lets him move towards his axes faster to pick them up and in turn do more damage, etc..

It also makes an offensive item early on a lot more possible since he would no longer melt hard.

Mindworm Jim1 votes

Hmm. Yeah, I can see that. Ragnarok is his big team fight defensive steroid, while the rest of his kit is "rawr, damage!". Not sure if that'll help with itemization though. If his ult is his only defensive mechanic then presumably he would want some tanks items for when it's not available.

How do you feel about replacing Vicious Strikes with some sort of defensive ability then? Would weaken his dueling power, but allows him to skirmish more easily without using Ragnarok (and then of course you can pop ult for serious mode).

vuduchikin1 votes

Riot is stubborn so they'll probably keep Vicious Strikes mainly offensive. But giving some sort of resistance steal (similar to Trundle's ultimate) would be an interesting idea.

Personally, I think he needs health scaling on his W again. I find that Olaf is most fun and effective when played as a CDR tank, and it's been like that forever. That will never happen, though. Flat AD is probably the closest we'd get, and that's not that bad.

Let's pretend for a second that New Ragnarok #2 and flat AD on Vicious Strikes instead of attack speed are implemented. With a couple tweaks to his Q (reducing the minimum range a bit) and E (buffing the base, lowering the scaling, and reducing the CD in place of the auto attack reset), a build similar to this would be strong:

Frozen Heart, Spirit Visage, Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, Youmouu's Ghostblade, Ninja Tabi.

A couple slots are able to be swapped out. Instead of Spirit Visage, you could get Iceborn Gauntlet or Locket of the Iron Solari. Instead of Youmouu's, you could get Black Cleaver.

Ionian variation:

Frozen Heart, Maw of Malmortius, Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, Trinity Force, Ionian Boots of Lucidity.

More damage and more focus on the axe spamming side of things. Possibly a Last Whisper in place of Maw/Sunfire.

That's just what I'd think based on this imaginary kit, though.

Linna Excel1 votes

I might be wrong but wasn't he reworked into his current form on purpose? Isn't that where we get Olafed from?

Best trundle TR1 votes

I'm a sad viking.......Riot ignores olaf. his dueling power is not that good. lee sin has same dueling power with huge mobility+outplay potential.

vuduchikin1 votes

I hope we at least get some sort of word on Olaf before these changes go live (if they even do).

vuduchikin1 votes

A lot of Olaf players would like some communication, Riot. Don't be scared. We want nothing more than to just sit down with you.

vuduchikin1 votes

Would really like a response.

Silver V Slacker1 votes

Those ult changes / ideals are pretty much his original ult before Riot gutted him.

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