S4 and the current state of Supports

Luner Hunter·Feb 16, 2014·13 votes·884 views

So it's been a few months since the S4 update in which there was a certain Rioter named Morello who said (and I will quote)

[QUOTE=Morello;43178896]They do deal some. :P Not a ton because they shield, heal, buff and speed up allies. Sometimes they have tank-level CC.

I need to leave for now. Bottom line on this stuff;

[B]Supports[/B] can do some damage; [B]supports[/B] are not primary damage-dealers.
If the tuning is off and AP mids blow away support characters, we'll adjust aggressively throughout preseason.
Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact).[/QUOTE]

However there has been a profound lack of buffs to any supports or nerfs to AP midlaners gone botlane.

Patch 3.15

Change to Fiddlesticks

Q - Terrify

Duration reduced at later ranks to 1.25/1.50/1.75/2.00/2.25 seconds (from 1.00/1.50/2.00/2.50/3.00 seconds)
Mana cost reduced to 65 at all ranks (from 65/75/85/95/105)

R - Crowstorm

Mana cost reduced to 100 at all ranks (from 150/200/250)

Patch 4.1

Change to Annie

Passive - Pyromania

Stun duration now scales 1.25/1.5/1.75 seconds at levels 1/6/11 (from 1.75 seconds at all levels)

R - Summon Tibbers

Cooldown reduced to 120/100/80 seconds (from 120 at all ranks)

These are not nerfts but slight tweaks to slightly overpowered abilities in which Fiddlesticks was even compensated by having his ult's mana cost be reduce to 100 MP at all ranks. I have tried to play Sona twice since PreSeason... she is still garbage and it is currently well into Season 4 without any buffs to the **REAL **supports or any nerfs to the AP MIDLANERS that keep going botlane. As the situation stands it's like this:

Sona: crap heals that cost too much mana for too little heal, too squishy, her Q+R+passive does a grand total of 0 dmg now, she is no threat all game (AP support) (yeah each AP Support is also listed a "mage" but riot has yet to change that specially after the S4 nerfs)

Taric: his stun does something? and he can heal? well... maybe if he still has mana after casting one OR the other (AP tank)

Soraka: so... her heals don't do jack... and they REALLY don't do jack unless the person your trying to heal is almost dead... awesome >.> lets not forget that shes squishy as hell, and she cant even shred enough magic resist to hurt any more (AP support)

Lulu: she has CC? pix does more than shoot sparkles? her R isn't her only useful ability? (AP support)

Jana: HA! what a joke! she doesn't do anything anymore (AP Support)

Nami: one of the only two supports that isn't busted ass broke (AP Support)

Leona: Tanky + CC she is the other support that is just fine as is (Melee Tank)

Now here comes the "supports" that have been running botlane:

Annie: need I say more? (AP mage)

Zyra: another obvious one (AP mage

Morgana: REALLY? shes got CC, shes got dmg, shes got a shield, and a stun (AP mage)

Nidale: Spears,Spears,Spears,Spears,Spears, and more spears! oh did I mention more spears, some traps, a heal, and tiger form executions?

(AP mage)

Blitz: Pulls, silences, CC, knock ups, tank (AP melee tank)

Thresh: hooks, shields, cc, dmg, and an ult that does both dmg and cc (AP melee tank)

Volibear: CC + Dmg + Tank (melee tank)

I have no reason to fear any of the **REAL **supports due to riot's nerfing all of their damages/heals into the ground. With the supports the way they are now I can ignore them due to their inability to deter me through damage, sustain, or CC. The CC isn't an issue for me due to the fact I am a support main in which its my job to take their CC, however, their damage is such a minor threat I can ignore them all game long aslong as I bring my ~20/~20 armor/MR rune page and tank masteries when I play Leona, Volibear, or Thresh. So since I can ignore the CC and the Dmg of the support the only other issue the support could cause me is their ability to heal themselves and their ADC which, again, is a minor threat due to the sheer **HATE **riot has for the champions that THEY CREATED with the ability to heal other champions. That is to say all heals from any support is hardly noticeable (except to a slightly greater extent soraka's R) in a fight with an ADC and a Support that knows what they are doing.

So the argument is this: Why would I take a Support with just CC when I can take an AP midlaner or a Tank which has CC **AND ** DMG botlane? (In which riot said this wouldn't become the case in which it has!) Now I am sitting here waiting for the promised "aggressive rebalancing"... 3.15 ... 4.1 ... 4.2 ... and counting

EDIT:4.3 patch NERFS to SUPPORT ITEMS

Riot baiting @Riot Morello

Original Thread called Bye Bye Supports started by Neurosurgeonwolf here

29 Comments

Knight DevoutFeb 16, 20146 votes

If I'm not mistaken, a rioter talked about "tool overload" when referring to the Ap Mages that were played botlane. Essentially what makes them trumps support is their Crowd Control+Magic Damage Hybrid , and in some cases their utility might even trump the utility of a full fledged support. Basically they have too many things for free, where as a support is balanced without damage to make up for his/her cc, those ap mages have both.

I agree with you, supports still lack enough utility to make up for the damage gap when compared to a morgana/annie played botlane.

ratcharmerFeb 19, 20141 votes

I think part of the issue here is that "utility" is something that's pretty much impossible to quantify, and Riot doesn't seem to count certain things as "utility" that I would normally put under that category (example: gapclosers)

Knight DevoutFeb 20, 20141 votes

Utility (IMHO ) is anything that helps you win the game. For example, Zyra's issue was(and still is) her freaky amount of cc+damage she can land, paired with the fact that is really hard to push her OoM.

Fulminous EdgeFeb 17, 20146 votes

I think it's also worth pointing out the raw power that Doran's shield offers supports in the bot lane, the extra 100 HP, 10 Hp5 and 8 damage block from AAs + Defense masteries almost nulifyes poke from the ranged AP supports you mentioned in you post. As Leona or Thresh I can take so much poke because not only do I have way more health but that extra 2 health per second in regeneration really adds up quickly.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the gold income item for poke champions like Sona, Spellthief's Edge, is not up to snuff with the like of the coin item path. At least iot is planning to begin testing changes for the gold items on the PBE.

So all I can really say is to wait, I think a nerfed Doran's Shield and a buffed Spellthief's Edge will go a long way to make a larger pool of supports more viable.

TehomCDFeb 17, 20143 votes

Yeah, I definitely agree that doran's shield and defense masteries are a big part of the problem. In theory, poke is supposed to beat all-in when played properly, strong sustain is supposed to beat poke, and all-in is supposed to beat sustain. The problem is that sustain was so easy for all-in lanes that they're clearly dominant in lane and the only reason to run anything else is for team comp purposes later in the game at the expense of possibly losing your lane really terribly. You can play other supports successfully if you leverage their power in teamfights, but you'll pretty much need to resign yourself to losing lane to some extent or another every time currently.

Luner HunterFeb 17, 20143 votes

i dont think defensive masteries are the issue here nor do i think dorans shield is a big problem either... putting a nerf to either will hurt other lanes more than it will hurt the tanky supports or the "supports" taking both the issue is that true supports are lacking the power to counter the new "Tank Support/Mage Support" meta that riot has enforced by trying to prevent supports from becoming mage supports and nerfing all the true supports into the ground :|

Lady LuckFeb 16, 20145 votes

I miss Janna :(

I've not felt as amazing playing a champion as I did playing Janna last season. Even in ARAM she feels useless...

KumohoFeb 16, 20143 votes

I know.. This is depressing ):

TehomCDFeb 17, 20145 votes

The problem is more based on how the supports currently interact. All-in supports are dominant due to their durability and their sustain with doran's shield and defensive masteries, and just tend to win lane by default. The problem isn't so much kits or how more pure supports scale - look at Lulu, for example. She's currently a very strong mid pick in competitive play. So obviously, if that's true, both her kit and her scaling is strong. Why isn't she as viable a pick in bottom lane? Because she's not as strong against all-in supports in a 2v2 situation as her overall kit contributes to team success in teamfights later in the game. For example, you mentioned Zyra which simply isn't true anymore - she's not that strong because she's reliant on poke, like Sona, and just isn't that great against all-in supports who have overloaded sustain. Morgana, by contrast, is very strong against all-ins due to countering with black shield, soil, binding, and ult, but vulnerable to poke which she doesn't have to care about much currently, since she can buy a doran's shield like everyone else.

Compounding that is the fact that it's almost absurdly easy to sustain now on AD carries compared to past seasons - poke supports have a pretty narrow window to try to work them down before they have enough lifesteal where they can completely ignore poke, and that's also the same period where all-in supports can threaten to kill them if they try to poke, and you have a situation where poke is too weak and distorts the bot lane as a result.

Luner HunterFeb 17, 20147 votes

the idea of each support's kit isnt the issue its how they scale... errr... or dont scale any more which makes real supports obsolete :/ Sona =/= Zyra in poke. Sona has 1 poke skill not a root, seeds, AoE, seeds, ult, and more seeds and did i mention the seeds turn into plants that will shoot crap at you or whip you? though your point still stands where poke is honeslty too weak on all of the true supports bot lane so anyone with half a brain can ignore them even before they have an insane amount of life leach

LogrosFeb 17, 20143 votes

Techom CD nailed it on the head.

I think the one thing that would be nice to have an include is further scaling at the very least with CC. Why not make it so some actual hard CC can scale, so, say, Taric's stun could get up to a higher amount than 1.5 seconds.

Simple improvements like increasing the ratio to Soraka's ult and increasing the poke on Sona's Q and scaling, Nami's Ult, and re-introducing the wall headbutt interaction on Alistar would be a start so that rather than nerfing the all in supports, we get more choices based on who the ADC is so that we actuall can do cool lanes based on different combinations.

ratcharmerFeb 19, 20142 votes

I think Riot avoided hard cc scaling because they were concerned about 10-second long stuns or similar obnoxious things coming into existence.

. . . although really i think the only thing needed to fix that would be duration cap.

LogrosFeb 19, 20141 votes

Oh I agree, nobody would have fun if there were 10 second stuns, and I don't think I coudl see that every happening.

But I've seen some posts where they talk about how supports should augment the other roles, and if I, as say Taric could get my stun up to 2.5 seconds, it would be a nice way for me to make an impact that requires others to follow up late game.

Maybe they put a hard cap on 3 seconds? I dunno. Good thought.

JamenerFeb 26, 20141 votes

The counter-argument to this route is what if some people start playing these champions as carries? With such long duration CC, it would be easy to carry.

My response to the counter-argument is that supports do such low damage now, that even if they land the CC they wouldn't put out enough burst damage to grab the follow-up kill. Especially on some supports where they have an ability or two exclusively for helping teammates--not for doing damage.

Another thing is scaling ratios: dedicated carries should get more bang for their buck by way of higher ratios. Supports have low ratios to keep them from being carries. Putting all your team's money on a support won't get you as much power as putting it on a true carry. Riot has already moved in this direction.

Conclusion: I support the scaling duration of CC's for true supports, but not for mid-laners turned support.

JamenerFeb 19, 20143 votes

There are some really strong points made in the comments here. I just want to add my two cents and say that every time I play Soraka I do not have fun. Hell, I don't even have fun playing Leona or Thresh because it's so easy to win with them. Soraka used to be fun for me because when you hit that heal button on an ally you would save them, and I mean really SAVE them. Right now, even with the massive armor buff, hard engaging magic damage dealing supports like Annie and Leona just shred through it and the heal is meaningless. A while back, when Riot first nerfed Soraka's heal (Kayle's heal as well) and added more armor to it they gave this reason: "Soraka and Kayle's heal should be used in clutch moments to save that person from near death. We feel that increasing the cooldown, lowering the heal amount, and increasing the armor and speed stats will accomplish this while also lowering their overwhelming sustain in lane." Well, I have been doing just that. I save Soraka's 20s CD heal for when my ADC gets jumped on so that I can give that oh-so-crucial armor buff to them, but they just melt anyway. And when I do decide to heal when there's no danger, my ADC yells at me when the enemy takes advantage of my high CDs and I don't have heal up to use it on them then. I can't peel. I can't do damage to discourage them from chasing. All I can do is run away feeling helpless, asking why I decided to troll myself by picking Soraka when a Thresh pick could've peeled, traded, and saved the ADC so much easier.

Hyrum GraffFeb 23, 20141 votes

Raka is a better carry than a support, for this reason. Try raka carry botlane, running 0-27-3. Start doran's ring or shield, and take a support with a heal (sona, nid, taric, kayle, etc). commence winning.

ArcsoonaFeb 17, 20142 votes

Sona is OP u just don't know how to play her. No offence

Luner HunterFeb 17, 20146 votes

as a player who use to main her from lvl 12 to 30 till litteraly the start of S4 i have to say BULL SHIT! i would love to see you take a sona RIGHT NOW vs a zyra/morgana/thresh/blitscrank/leona/volibear/annie or any other "support" that is currently played bot lane and win it wont happen! WHY? cuz shes underpowered her heal cost way to much for way to little, scaling movement speed? lulz your not going anywhere when your rooted, stun locked, pulled and knocked up, stunbear'd, thrown then slowed for 30%+ from voli's E that currently OUTSCALES sona's movement speed bonus from her E, hooked by thresh and E'd.... what i would like to know is where have you been since the S4 preseason update? she has about 0 utility now >.> oh noes her R gives a 2 second stun and... thats it! Q does 0 dmg, passive does 0 dmg, E doesnt heal shit, W gives movement speed (which you wont be using as your active aura if your a smart sona) so tell me what can a sona do vs ANY of the aformentioned "supports"?????

ratcharmerFeb 18, 20142 votes

Riot has said multiple times now that many traditional supports are under-tuned right now and need love, but nothing has come of it yet . . .

Traditional supports aren't "trash", but it's quite clear they are underpowered compared to many other classes.

The opening post exaggerates, but does have a point.

Luner HunterFeb 18, 20141 votes

if its an exaggeration is only a slight exaggeration because if you compare supports in S4 even with their increased gold income they are by far inferior to their S3 counterparts. in S3 a full AP mastery/runes/full ap build Sona could do 2100 dmg late game now the same exact setup Sona does 1400 and thats all BEFORE MR is counted in. Riot said last season that Sona could build full support and still dish AP midlaner like damage which was BS if she built full support she'd dish about 800-1000 dmg 30+ mins into the game for a full combo now a support sona might deal ~600 dmg 30+ mins in if she built full support like shes suppose to. now before all the morons say "but now you can build AP items with all your extra gold" would that mean that i was trying to build AP midlaner style which riot didnt want? and ignoring the role in which i picked? cuz i totaly want a DFG over lets say item 3190 , the item 3301 or item 3092 line of itmes, item 2045 , item 3222 , item 3174

Luner HunterFeb 18, 20141 votes

btw the 2100 dmg and 1400 dmg numbers were given in the "best case" scenarios in which the other team was stupid enough to feed a Sona enough gold in such a way that she didnt have to worry about building anything defensively

ratcharmerFeb 18, 20143 votes

Don't get me wrong--I agree heartily with the main thrust of your argument. I just wanted to warn you that there is a danger of overstating your case and getting dismissed by Riot even though you have a good point.

Frankly, in this case we have more than enough completely indesputable facts to make the case without relying on anything that can be debated:

Fact: When Riot released the pre-season support changes they stated several times that they would watch balance closely and would buff supports as needed.

Fact: As soon as one month after the changes went through, there were forum posts from Rioters saying that yes, many traditional supports were underpowered and in need of love. Riot has re-affirmed this statement several times since, but has declined to give anything more specific.

Fact: In the FOUR MONTHS since the changes there has only been one minor buff given out to one traditional support champion (Janna heal buff--a buff to an element of her kit most players don't even use). There have been a couple nerfs given out (Taric, Thresh) and PBE testing of further nerfs on Sona, who hasn't been seeing play at a competitive level. No further buffs have been PBE tested.

Now, as a comparison point let's look at the Skarner Rework.

Yes, Skarner didn't come through the rework very well and that sucked for Skarner players. However, the very next day there was a Rioter on the forums discussing specific buffs and stating that players could expect to see Skarner buffs in the very next patch.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum,

Ratcharmer

Luner HunterFeb 18, 20142 votes

i see... i got a little hostile because most of the replies i've gotten on this topic from other threads were dismissals, accusations that i can't play, and insults :/

edit: why are they talking about nerfing the currently useless sona again on the PBE?

ratcharmerFeb 18, 20141 votes

They never explained why, but they also reverted the nerf without sending it through to live.

Anything more I could tell you would be pure speculation.

Luner HunterFeb 22, 20141 votes

well this post is to bump this threat and to ask why there has yet to be a single red reply >.>

ratcharmerFeb 22, 20141 votes

I don't think bumping works that way in the Community Beta.

That said, over on GD Morello did make some posts mentioning that they do have plans to buff some of the supports, but they're going for a multi-tiered approach that will take several patches (and thus several months) to roll out. I guess the first step is tweaking the starting items?

It also seems like none of the Reds are replying to balance questions posted on the Beta.

(don't shoot the messenger, I'm just trying to paraphrase Morello)

Luner HunterFeb 23, 20141 votes

its rather lame though that one would have to play forum tag just to get an actual answer from the devs :|

Flowering BonesFeb 25, 20141 votes

If you think Volibear and Nidalee are more viable supports than Lulu right now, you're far gone.

Luner HunterFeb 26, 20141 votes

hehe okay while your more worried about being thrown by volibear and blowing precious CC on me my ADC and i are going to work your ADC's face over because we both can ignore you're small purple useless ass! OH NOES you transformed me? ADC is still dealing dmg! transform my ADC? well have fun being thrown, slowed, and bitten by me while my adc waits out that transformation then proceeds to kill your ADC. This isnt a "best case" scenario its a common occurence due to the fact that no one has a reason to fear lulu or her CC now if you will excuse me i'm going to go back to pwning with my tanks hf

edit your lvl 6... what the hell do you know about Season 3 vs Season 4 unless this is a smurf account and you feel like you've got to hide behind a scrub account to say that supports are just fine as they are?????