Thornmail got some problems, yo.

ModCaptainMårvelous·Jul 14, 2014·3 votes·644 views

So, wanted to talk about . This thing is sort of a relic of League's first incarnation and, as such, kinda shows. Namely, here are some glaring problems I have with the item:

Massive amount of flat armor...but doesn't give back half as much as or . Both heavy armor items, these two items give way better stuff than Thornmail. Longer to put together but overall a larger lasting effect.
Thornmail only returns auto-attack damage. In a game with a far greater amount of AD Casters ( etc) this feels like a sort of odd choice. Even ADCs have a lot more AD skills compared to the original few.
This item returns magic damage, making it less suitable for tanks who pepper in AD with their builds.
Thornmail has a total cost of 2200. Likewise, Frozen heart costs 400 more...but offers more stats and utility. Randuins as well is more expensive but better in the long run.

So what can we do about Thornmail? It's a cool idea for an item but it just doesn't have the same impact in a game. If I want armor but they have yasuo, zed, whatever? I'd just get Randuins or FH. So here are some ideas that could be done. Nothing I assert as a 100% fix but something we can talk about.

1.) Lower the passive to 10-25% return damage, increase gold cost, add an active as seen below.
**Active: **For 0.2(x level) seconds, returns all PHYSICAL damage dealt to the target. (At max level, 3.6 seconds).

This idea needs tweaking but you get the general idea. Now you have something more fitting to counter people with hardcore AD outputs. Furthermore, this scales with level so rushing this item super early won't make it impossible for someone to kill you while still providing power late game. More so, it's not just a free passive damage return. Now you have to actively plan to attack while (at the same time) the enemy will have to better fight and decide if they should attack you while the active is going or to wait, risking you getting away but also giving safety.

2.) Return magic damage as well, possibly change the build path.

It's been talked about before, but the idea that it could block magic attacks as well could prove useful in making thornmail a "I'm melting too fast as a tank, this will return their burst to them" tool. Still super expensive, but the idealization is still there.

3.) Increase armor, making it better than FH and Randuins but only in flat armor.

Worth a shot.

These ideas are basically "throw science at the wall, see what sticks". Sure, building full tank and letting an Ashe AFK attack you to her death makes it -seem- good but being completely honest, I don't see many people purchasing this item. It'd be nice if we had the chance to diversify our tank builds, but only time will tell if Thornmail needs a buff...or anything at all.

10 Comments

67chromeJul 15, 20145 votes

Thornmail being exactly as weak as it's lower cost indicates isn't a problem. Gold is an extremely solid indicator of who's winning and who's loosing as it directly translates into a fairly set amount of item stats. Thornmail should be weaker than Frozen Heart and Randuin's Omen for it's lower cost.

Also - thornmail is a niche defensive item. Being low-cost actually helps that aspect out, as you can pick it up without completely derailing your build. You can actually pick it up on a marksman or mage if an auto-attacker is being a major pain and still be a marksman or mage with not needing to spend that extra 1k compared to mega-tank items that mostly just tanks should really be getting.

Concerning reflecting magic damage: Thornmail's predominant niche and reason for purpose is hard-countering life steal. As Thornmail actually reflects damage before it's mitigated by armor, you need 60% life steal on top of the 50% damage reduction Thornmail's 100 armor provides to actually negate the 30% reflected damage. With a solid combination of armor penetration (to place that reflected damage closer to what you're dishing out) and some magic resistance (due to the reflected damage being magical), Thornmail reaches a spot of equalibreum end-game where it negates life steal and life steal negates it.

Anyways - life steal is a pretty big part of pretty much every AD champion's build, which keeps thornmail somewhat balanced.

Spell Vamp, alternatively, is not in any way a big part of magic-damage champion builds. You're just killing them for free by reflecting magic damage. At least, your killing them for free in every phase of the game while pushing rather sub-optimal item choices on them.

Also, the general mechanics of magic damage make reflecting a portion of that damage a pretty crumby thing to have. With auto-attacks you're delivering a sustained source of damage based entirely on who you're focusing. If you focus someone with Thornmail and things are not going to your favor, you can often easily not focus them. Or at least with the reflexes of a potato you can alter your tactics so you don't kill yourself. Magic damage usually isn't sustained - it's generally not single target either. It tends to come in the form of AoE burst which, for the purposes of magical damage reflection, means a typical mage could end up killing themselves in one second flat by nuking a team where ~3 members are wearing the item. Also - abilities cover a wide gambit of delivery methods, many of which could be easily exploited by magic-damage reflection. A mega-tank could wade through an entire Zigg's minefield and, if not kill him, force him to back and heal. (Killing Teemo offscrean with a Leona would almost make it worth, but still broken)

As for the active idea - 100% damage reflection for 3.6 seconds is pretty absurd. Even with committed auto-attackers like Tryndamere, Yasou, Vayne, and Aatrox you will often find yourself in split-second kill or be killed situations when fighting within a group. Yasou and Fiora largely transition into assassins during the team fight phase, and a 3.6 second duration nope would shut them down considerably harder than QSS shuts down Malzahar.

I mean, I realize DotA's thorns item has that, but LoL isn't DotA.

A weak AoE active with an incredibly visible spell effect might be cool. Maybe ~6% of all damage taken (~3% for AoE) is reflected back to attackers for an active.

ProfDrDeathJul 15, 20142 votes

Misconception Alert:

With the changes to Lifesteal, there's no longer a way to (reasonably) get enough Lifesteal to outheal Thornmail's passive.

Numbers inc:

Competent ADC has Banshee's for 112 MR and LW for 35% ArPen.

Competent Tanky Guy/Tanky Girl has 250 Armor (probably a lot more), but no MR Pen.

ADC does X damage with an attack and takes 0.3*(1-112/212)*X = 0.1415 X from Thornmail as damage.

Tank takes (1- 162.5/262.5) *X = 0.3810 X damage and heals for Y% of that.

Y = 0.1415/0.3810 = 37.1%. That's how much Lifesteal an AD carry needs to outheal Thornmail against a 250 Armor target.

Shyvana can have close to 400 Armor.

You'd need 50.9% Lifesteal to outheal Thornmail on her.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 15, 20141 votes

That's if you're only autoing Shyvana. I don't think there are many ADCs who strictly auto-attack anymore and, the few that do, have some sort of modifier or gimmick attached to them.

ProfDrDeathJul 17, 20141 votes

Yes, many carries have tools to harm Thornmail users without having to use autos.

But this discussion is not about ways to kill a Thornmail user, it is about its interaction with Lifesteal. And generally, anything that a carry would Lifesteal with (Autos, Ez Mystic Shot, etc) also triggers Thornmail.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 15, 20141 votes

I think the one thing you're forgetting, at the same time, is that many ADC champions now do not just rely on auto-attacks nor simple AA modifiers. Let's take Lucian for example.

Passive- Double shot, hit by thornmail
Q- Piercing Light. Thornmail ignored.
W- Ardent Blaze. Thornmail ignored.
E- Dash. Non-applicable
R- The Culling. Thornmail ignored.

And keep in mind, a lot of this is Lucian doing a ton of damage without even noticing thornmail.

Another example that's often picked? Yasuo and Jinx:

Yasuo 's steel tempest is essentially an auto-attack, but is utterly ignored by thornmail. Yes, Yasuo AA's but the main thing people fear from him are the Qs and the Ults that follow.

Jinx as well. While her switcheroo is heavily mitigated, her zap and ult are untouched by thornmail. Keep in mind, Zap is an absolutely massive damage tool and her ult is basically a ranged map-wide execute (Although I personally can't hit it for shit.)

Hell, even old underpicked champions ( Vayne , Varus ) have most of their main damage rooted not in auto-attacks but in procs. Vayne's silver? Varus's blight? All untouched.

What I'm saying is that Thornmail's niche has always been there: AA counters. And, for what it is worth, I totally agree with you that it occupies that niche nicely. The problem is that as the game has gone on, that niche has grown a LOT smaller while those who hover just outside of it have grown in number.

Still, thanks for the feedback. I agree that my initial idea was absurd as all hell and that your idea might be the better way to go. I think 6% of all damage returned seems a bit weak, but we wouldn't know until it's put into practice. Thornmail's a cool idea and I love the idea of it, but it just feels like this niche is kinda lost unless it gets updated accordingly.

Linna ExcelJul 14, 20142 votes

Thornmail is a great situational item but that's about it.

Doominator10Jul 14, 20141 votes

Rammus .....ok :)

Rachael PassiveJul 15, 20141 votes

your idea sound a lot like thornmail should have an active a lot like item 3180 , and I approve, or at least sort of. I agree that it should have some other form of utility.

exiledFromBadmenJul 15, 20141 votes

We need to buff it heavily because of MasterYi Yasuo Zed It's not strong against them because it reflects just AA's not 's Alpha Strike or Yasuo 's ult. And, they're strong despite nerfs.

Like, this reflect damage should be %50, %60 or even more. But its price can be increased.

Any thoughts?

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 15, 20142 votes

50/60 damage reflection is obscene.

I'd be comfortable if it just took into account all instances of physical damage dealing instead of just basic attacks, albeit lower the overall return.