Valor has Quinn's full mana costs...Why?

Andrethyst·Apr 1, 2014·6 votes·163 views

Title. I've been playing Quinn for quite a while now, and this has always perplexed me. With Elise and Nidalee, their shapeshifted forms don't require mana to cast spells, and Valor already requires 100 mana and a pretty big cooldown just to access him. Valor also has the negatives of having to go into melee to either cast them or ends up in melee after casting. Could I get some red input as to why this is the case?

Thinking through it before I did get that the 100 mana does give you a large attack speed buff and a large-small movement speed buff based on combat status at the cost of going melee, but having mana required to actually jump on someone (as the movement speed boost never feels like it's helping at all to chase when someone's hit you in the past 5 seconds) just gets more frustrating since if I want to either chase someone down or do a Valor/Skystrike burst combo I have to instead of thinking of whether I can become Valor, I have to remember my mana costs for the OTHER abilities and determine if I have the mana for that in the first place, when in the case of Nidalee, if you want to go to cougar form you just have to think "I need to get close" and you know you can cast your spells regardless of your mana. Obviously these can easily be argued as apples and oranges situations, and I'm only making these comparisons because of the shapeshifting mechanic.

All in all I just would love to hear an answer as to why Valor still has full mana costs. Why was this decision made in Quinn/Valor's design? Was having Valor be manaless considered? Why was it shot down if it was? I'd love to hear some red input to ease this confusion of mine.

7 Comments

Remlap1223Apr 1, 20143 votes

I think Valor needs to be a perma-form, much like Nidalee and Elise have their respective Cougar and Spider forms. Give him true special abilities and take out skystrike. It doesn't do much as is anyways. Maybe if and when they rework Quinn.

AndrethystApr 1, 20142 votes

Having a permaform would be pretty cool, though I feel like we'd hit issues with what Valor currently is like (does swapping grant him the consistent movespeed out of combat, for example). I'm actually afraid of a big rework tbh, since I really enjoy most of how the two are (including skystrike, though I don't feel like it necessarily needs a huge aoe which I think is part of the reason why it's so weak as is). My biggest issue as a Quinn player is probably that most of the time to really get use out of Valor at all I need to have an extra 140 mana or so just to get in and do much damage.

Remlap1223Apr 2, 20141 votes

Quinn is one of those champions that's fun to play, but useless in the current meta. She is pretty unique (a bruiser marksman? So cool!), but she's just like Sion and Twisted Fate in the fact that she inherits the worst of both champion types they embody. I feel that reworking her so that she's an aggressive harassing and kiting marksman as Quinn, and then going full predator and chasing down enemy champions as Valor, would really bring the best of both worlds. So far, only Nidalee has pulled off this hybrid well (too well) and these changes I'd like to see in polishing Gangplank's kit eventually.

AbiwonKenabiApr 2, 20141 votes

Having her be a kiting marksman into a chaser is just making her an AD Nidalee. I mean really, Nid does that already, why should Quinn also? Honestly her current kit has some good things going for it (she can out-duel most other ADs if she's even with them) But her ult is lacking. Sure, let's say Valor becomes the finisher: well, Quinn still wants to get out of that alive, and between mana costs and no extra survivability, Valor doesn't have the tools to get her to safety. Using Nid as an example: her human form mana costs limit her poking so it's not infinite, but she always has that reliable mobility if things go sour/she pokes someone low. What is Valor's reliable mobility? His targeted gapcloser that has a semi-long cooldown? The increased move-speed that's 40% in combat? Beyond this, it only lasts 20 seconds for Quinn to get the hell out of there.

AbiwonKenabiApr 2, 20141 votes

Maybe a more apt comparison with shape-shifting: Shyvana is manaless, so never has to worry about casting her spells in dragon form (or any form for that matter). Her ult is more effective at getting her close and gives her tanky stats, in addition to her abilities doing extra things.

Valor is also an ult form, but Quinn uses mana. This is fine, but unlike Dragon form, it doesn't even act as a gapcloser--the gapcloser is extra. This is strange considering Shyv gets her gapcloser AND transformation in one skill--even if she was a mana champ, this is must more cost effective.

I agree that Valor can be fun, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through to get a good Valor ult off. Like you said, you have to have upwards of 200 mana in order to get close, and the speed boost is inconsistent. The attack speed is great, but the sticking power is often too weak to make it feel effective.

OTHER OPINIONS ABOUT QUINN ULT INC:

Since you're squishy, I expect Valor to play almost like an assassin, but he really isn't mobile enough to perfect that feeling. When Kha'Zix ults, it's like he's jumping all around, stealthing--you don't know where he is half the time. When LeBlanc goes in, it's in and out with huge damage. I hear you say "Quinn is sustained damage." But even more sustained melee damage dealers feel more mobile--trynd has his spin and a "don't die yet" button, Yi can Alpha Strike and be untargetable for a moment. What does Valor have? The mana would definitely help, but I feel like there's something there in a really fun kit that lacks survivability. Just my two cents.

AndrethystApr 2, 20141 votes

Valor playing like an "assassin" is how I usually end up using him in laning, since sticking around for much more than a simple vault/assault/attack/skystrike combo as Valor doesn't really end well since I always seem to not be able to keep up with the enemy champion effectively. Of course, the quotes are there because Valor doesn't really work for that purpose unless they're at something around 30% health at best, and usually Skystrike doesn't kill them anyway so I have to hope I can get a followup attack afterward as Quinn. If I'm already pretty ahead it works out well, since I can rip apart a target with the blind, but if I'm only slightly ahead or even, using Valor as anything but a small burst combo just doesn't work well. And if I don't have the MANA to do said burst combo, I might as well just have killed myself since I'm now Valor just sitting there, having wasted a large cooldown because I couldn't actually either jump in or do half of the important burst combo damage.

AbiwonKenabiApr 2, 20141 votes

Yeah the only way I feel Valor can be effective as more than just the burst combo is if you build tanky/fighterish(think current Eve)....but that in itself is a conundrum, because most of the time you're NOT Valor, you're Quinn, and you want to build her glass cannon. Even if Valor just becomes a way to engage quickly/a burst combo, it would probably help if the mana costs were removed. Seriously, the only transformation I can think of where mana is a problem is Jayce, and that's for good reason, he gets to this bruiser/poke stage where he has TONS of options. Others (Shyvana, Riven, Elise, Nid) don't have to worry about mana.