[Balance] "Dat Lucian-y Feel"

Hiphoppopatomus·7/2/2014, 1:38:06 PM·13 votes·7,151 views

Since Riot has made it known that Lucian is one of the most well-rounded and strong marksmen, I would like to offer my thoughts on possible ways to make him weaker while maintaining the Lucian-y feel to him. To me, I view Lucian as a mid-range, high mobility marksman... that shoots guns and laser guns. Lucian should feel quick on his feet while being in and out of a fight and skirting dangerously close to it to deal maximum damage. I DO NOT see Lucian as: A long range poke champion, an all in close-range marksmen, or a burst assassin. Lucian should be about shooting people, a lot, while looking cool.

Primarily I'd like to look at the one skill I feel makes Lucian fairly strong in the early/mid game in duels and in lane, Lucian's Q.

Currently, Lucian's Q has a .35s delay that travels 1100 units, has no travel time, has (I think?) 100 missile width, costs 60-80 mana, and does 75% damage to minions. This is not to mention that it does not to reduced damage to subsequent targets. Before even factoring in damage, this skill is great at harass because of two/three things: Incredibly short wind-up time, reduced damage to minions, and lack of damage falloff. The lack of travel time could also be a factor, but without it I think the skill would lose its lucian-y feel. The short wind-up time is an obvious boon to this skill due to being hard to dodge while not interrupting lucian's mobility, attributing to his difficulty to be pinned down. By doing reduced damage to minions, lucian can effectively poke through minions without pushing the wave as hard as if this skill did full damage. The only real drawback, mechanically speaking about this skill on live is that it must be cast on a target that is within 550 range.

Thank you to ProfDrDeath for pointing out the flaw in my math. I shall have to sit and stew over some stuff now. But the general ideas still stand

However, let's compare Lucian's Q to something of similar value Caitlyn's Q.

~~Caitlyn's Q has about 200 more range on the final missile travel, costs 50-90 mana, travels a decently fast speed(Can be dodged in air with dash skills but harder on foot), and has its damage fall off when per unit hit. So, this skill is meant as a poke skill (high range), but meant to be counter played by being dodged(slow wind-up and decent travel speed) or by standing behind minions to negate major damage. Caitlyn is a much more long-range poke based champion with an escape that damages/slows in the direction she came from, traps to keep enemies at bay, and this long range poke tool along with her crazy awesome ult. Lucian however, should be about staying in his optimum mid-range to get those double-auto procs or dashing around with his increased movespeed/Relentless pursuit(THEY EVEN NAMED IT PURSUIT, not pansymanrunsaway) to stay in his happy zone. ~~

Damage Wise: (Values taken from the league of legends wiki) Caitlyn's Q- 20 / 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 (+ 130% AD) Lucian's Q- 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120% bonus AD)

~~So at level 1, assuming both start doran's blade and have roughly 65-70 or so AD. Caitlyn's Q - 104.5 - 111 Lucian's Q - 119 - 122 ~~

Already at level 1, lucian has a more powerful harass tool that is harder to dodge and allows for a quick follow-up with his passive if the enemy is in range. Caitlyn's momentum is completely interrupted by casting her Q and has no natural follow up other than to auto attack if in range. This is also not to mention that Cailtyn's Q, when cast through minions, will do significantly less damage as it hits more unit, whereas Lucian's Q does maximum damage to all units (other than minions).

Now let's look at max level Q at around level 9, assuming both carries have roughly 150 AD? I pulled a number out of the air I have no idea. It's probably a good bit more than that.

Caitlyn - 375 Lucian - 395

Even at max level, Lucian has a more powerful ranged harass that is not diminished by distance or targets hit AND synergizes with his passive, even when Caitlyn is supposedly the one who is a longer range poke-ish champion. I'm assuming Riot balanced caitlyn's Q with the assumption that she has longer range than everyone so her auto attacks are more where her damage comes from than her Q. But her Q completely interrupts her auto attack momentum and leaves her vulnerable. The only viable time to Q is when E'ing away or harassing non-aggressive opponents. In a fight, Q-ing as caitlyn tends to lower your dps because you could have been auto attacking (benefits from crit and can possibly/builds up headshot). Caitlyn's Q also costs more mana at max level, even if only a little (90 vs Lucian's 80).

So, what is the point to me saying all this about lucian's Q? Either Lucian needs to be examined as a burst marksman and balance him as such (Possibly lower the range on the tail end of Q or put a cooldown on his double attack passive) or put his skills more in line with his mid range fighting (Lower the base damage on his Q or have the damage fall off at a distance/through units).

These are just my personal beliefs and only apply to really one and a half of Lucian's set of skills because I don't feel that anything in the rest of his kit is really "overpowered". Sorry if I messed up on numbers.

39 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk7/2/2014, 11:00:26 PM7 votes

Great thoughts. I am on my way to a meeting, I really would like to come back and discuss this more.

sizzles and flies away

ProfDrDeath7/3/2014, 8:11:17 AM4 votes

I am sorry to have to point out a big flaw in your analysis:

You did not pay heed to the difference between TOTAL and BONUS AD. Therefore, your numbers for the Qs is off:

Level 1, 20 bonus AD:
Lucian 80 + 0.6 x 20 = 92
Caitlyn 20 + 1.3 x 70 = 111

Level 9, 80 bonus AD:
Lucian 200 + 1.2 x 80 = 296
Caitlyn 180 + 1.3 x 154 = 380.2

Nice read, otherwise. And I think the mid-range fighting aspect is what Riot is probably going to balance him for.

MrBuffington7/3/2014, 12:23:19 AM3 votes

Great analysis! Did not know there was such a discrepancy between Caitlyn Q and Lucian Q. I definitely agree that his Q/passive is something that needs to be looked at. I was a little thrown off with the nerf to his W; it never was a spell that seemed to do significant damage until mid-late game when you have it maxed (or if you're incredibly ahead).

(Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't play much Lucian, but lord knows I see a lot of him on both sides of the rift). It seemed to me that Lucian was an ADC that had hit his peak around lvl 9 (when Q is maxed), generally was a lane bully and didn't really fall off in the game, but just didn't hyper-scale as well as some other ADCs (which is definitely debatable, since I've seen some crazy Lucian dualing, in LCS and otherwise).

Again, I'm no expert on the subject, but this is the part of my post where I propose a few different balance ideas in hopes of getting some feedback (these are separate ideas, don't want to completely gut Lucian :P):

  • I think the cooldown on Lucian's passive is a really cool idea. Another similar idea I want to throw out there is if Lucian gets a double shot every two abilities he uses (sort of like Nunu's passive, where he gets a free spell every 4(?) spells he casts, or Annie getting a stun every 4 spells cast). This still allows Lucian to get burst when he's using his spells, but I think it may also make him more careful about using his doubleshot, as well as giving the opponent windows to go aggressive on him (ie you just see him use his doubleshot, you know he won't have another one ready for another two spells.) Similar to Annie's stun, perhaps there could be a visual indicator showing when he has a double shot charged. On one hand, he would have less damage output in trades, but he could also charge doubleshots outside of lane, if the 6 second window to use the passive is removed. His damage output would be cut off in trades since he could get at most two double shots off in a cycle of his basic spells, assuming he had one already charged, instead of having three. I think this only gets rid of one 50% damage shot, but that could be pretty significant?
  • What if a target takes progressively less damage from successive double shots? There could be a cooldown where this resets, with some indicator like Nautilus passive or Yasuo E indicating the time that target would be taking reduced damage. For example, first double shot does 100/50%, second double shot does 75/33% damage, and so on (just making up numbers). This would only apply to a single target, so Lucian could maximize his overall damage output by targeting different champions with his double shots. I'm a little mixed about this idea since there might come a point where Lucian duals a single target and his double shots are doing less damage than a regular auto, but this may also push him to favor shorter trades, as well as giving his opponents windows to attack him. I'm guessing his regular autos would do regular damage, so in this case Lucian has a choice of using more spells in a trade or forgoing that extra damage/mobility in favor of more damage with autos.
  • I was always curious about Lucian's Q having a cast time, since he is supposed to be a super mobile champion (all other spells somewhat contribute to this, the W passive, his E, and his ability to move while ulting, as well as the E reset on kills with his ult). I was thinking some similar utility could be added to his Q (of course at the cost of damage. Don't think we're trying to buff Lucian here :P). I don't have a super clear idea of what this could be, maybe just a big cut to damage and his Q also applies his W passive, or reduces the cooldown on his E by a few seconds.

That's about it for now, let me know what you think!

JohnnyNoxid7/3/2014, 12:08:12 AM1 votes

A damage reduction, maybe a missile width reduction for clarity, on his Q I feel would be fair enough. But we all agree that Lucian is fairly well rounded. A good Cait vs a Lucian might be able to dodge the Q just by perceiving it incoming. Following which she can kite him around fairly easily. I do feel that Luc has the advantage in a 1v1 and I think it should remain that way.

Stephenizgod7/3/2014, 12:29:06 AM1 votes

very good post, i have always thought that Lucian's Q does a bit more damage then it should simply because of his kit and playstyle. Like if played correctly i dont think it should do so much damage, it doesnt need to do so much damage, Lucian is a very strong champion. Personally i just hate that he can poke through minions without pushing and deal tons of damage.

Cerbearus7/3/2014, 1:29:28 AM1 votes

CD on his passive seems like an interesting idea

Peter McCain7/3/2014, 1:42:05 AM1 votes

My idea on a new Lucian Q would be it does less damage with each target struck respectively---

Vortex IV7/3/2014, 2:30:30 AM1 votes

Well thought out I guess, but he's fine the way he is right now. Riot needs to be moving other adcs up instead of smashing all of them down to a mediocre state.

Mirage Night7/3/2014, 2:34:37 AM1 votes

Does your analysis take in account of the non conditional feature of Caitlyn's skill shot vs Lucian's targeting requirement?

Leroyswish7/3/2014, 3:03:35 AM1 votes

My only input? Make Lucian's Ardent Blaze explode in an "x" shape.

DragonKnightKura7/3/2014, 12:35:28 PM1 votes

i already thought his q would be better with a lower % damage per unit traveled through without this much thought but if 2 random players can see something like this this easily why cant riot just fix it this way?

Beautiful Daji7/3/2014, 4:33:28 PM1 votes

I agree with this also. When He use Q it does do quite a bite of damage in early game. Especially with the passive. I am a Caitlyn main. When Fighting against Lucian at early level. It Is little hard to bully him out of lane cause of the passive and his Q dmg. Which made you made clear. I just feel He shouldn't be a all around marksmen. Cause Every ad carry has either early-mid game or mid late game. I think lowering his range or lowering his early game... or a small buff to Caitlyn? to increase her late game. Just a suggestion

Vartio7/2/2014, 10:29:31 PM1 votes

Fairly well thoughtout, considering.

Sire Hippington7/10/2014, 4:53:30 PM1 votes

I think the mainproblem is the short cast time + no travel time, it's impossible to activly dodge it without flash or a realy fast dash, even Ez E is to delayed to dodge lucians Q.
Combined with the high effecktive range in lane it's just a superior pokeing tool, while his passive gives him a strong lowrange trading, so u usually can't poke him nor can u out-trsde him on short distance with most adc.
I think his Q should get changed into a missle with travel time, so u can dodge it on longer distance, cause a longer windup would take away mobillity from lucian, wich is kinda his main thing, and having it impossible to dodge just feels bad playing vs lucian

i can deal with high burst and good dps on short range, as it is short range and he'S squishy, but the unavoidable poke is realy nasty to lane against. Like pre nerfed Graves, high Q poke and insane all-in

I wouldn't nerf the passive, as it is what defines lucian most, the skill-AA-skill-AA rythem is what makes Lucian feel special amongst the carrys, and it should stay the most significan't part of him imo. What doesn't seem nessesary to me is the strong mid-range poke with Q+W, since his passive+Aarange is more of a shortrange carry.
It also is what causes Lucian to be a permapick.
If u remember, release Lucian was rarly seen and considered underpowered, eventhough he had more raw damage potential as Q and W weren't nerfed back then, and his passive was just as strong as now.
The significan't change was a QoL-change to his Q and a buff to his mana, allowing him to force enemys out off Lane simply by spaming Q as they nolonger could doge it.

Flying Buntcake7/2/2014, 11:33:18 PM1 votes

Its interesting to see that level 1 Lucian's q does more damage than Caitlyn's

Caitlyn vs Lucian

Arby0997/3/2014, 12:13:26 AM1 votes

I agree with this. I've always felt Lucian should play and feel like a John Woo movie.