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Why Skarner needs a change!

MajorPain9·3/20/2014, 10:25:04 PM·23 votes·1,387 views

Alright, I am not a big fan of this forum style, but the Reds seem to like this type of feedback. If you agree with me or simply wish to see some type of reply a thumbs up would be greatly appreciated. Here we go.

We have all seen the pick and win rates of the new skarner. The amount of "hate" being generated is just passion for an overall impressive champion concept. We just want a niche we can excel at . Previously it was tanky peeler. Once skarner was on you he was on, and his kit complimented this in every aspect.

Now that his kit has been altered, he can no longer fulfill this role. Since his heal has been removed he has become a Jungler 24/7 and the compensation he got was a ranged slow. While amazing, it still just doesn't sit right with is kit. His passive leaves him in a state of needing constant dps to fulfill his full use.

When a new skarner uses his slow it only allows him time to reach the enemy IF it successfully lands. After that point he has to rely on red buff or items, if he has them, to make use of his kit. This is the problem most Scorp fans have at the moment.

We aren't asking for permaslow back. We are simply asking to make use of his passive or allow us to make use of his kit with out needing a buff or items to do so. This rework has caused him to become more feast or famine relying on those things.

Either change his passive or allow him to make use of it so his kit has a cohesive feel to it.

One of the main suggestions being put forward is to allow him to proc the E mark on a target that is slowed either rooting them, or applying the slow again. This isn't that detrimental to game balance in my opinon, because the champion had the opportunity to not only dodge the slow, but CC skarner before he reaches them. Right now just having a slow, isn't up to par with many Jungler gank tools out there.

Also, Scruffy, I am sorry for any hate I have directed at you. It was my frustration that led me to it, and the lack of feedback only fueled the fire. My emotions got the better of me and many fans, but we just want a champion we fell in love with to have an identity again. We want him to be fun and unique in the rift. Please don't disown us for our criticisms. We want to work with you to make a fun and balanced champion that the league can be proud of.

35 Comments

Shahamut3/21/2014, 12:23:12 AM8 votes

This is pretty well exactly how we feel Scruffy. We just want Skarner to be his own champion again. As is, the feast or famine problem that everyone kept mentioning is now worse. If I don't get some early kills and then items, its hard to catch back up. Then, if Skarner gets counter jungled, he becomes pretty well an Achilles heel to his team.

Help us out here Scruffy, we want a fun, balanced, and competitive scorpion. We aren't giving up you, don't let us down. We aren't giving up on Skarner, please do the same.

Skarner, I miss your kind...

Shahamut

Shahamut3/21/2014, 12:07:05 PM5 votes

It won't be perma slow if they just have the slow duration reset after consuming the mark. This will make no difference when done in melee. But it will help everyone who feels they need to use this from range, and will help with chase.

Personally, I would like to see E do some better damage if they are going to leave his kit as is.

I have played with some high elo friends of mine (they got me into this game) and I can tell you, vs anyone who actually knows how to play, Skarner just doesn't do ANYTHING without his teammates, so counter jungling is like a "no no" because if you get caught you are dead.

Now, in my bronze 5 Elo- I can do whatever I want with Skarner and carry. This skarner does not cut it for high level play. He needs more than just some minor tweaks.

PhoenixSlayer133/21/2014, 12:10:43 AM5 votes

Thanks for being civil here OP.

Emotions tend to run high for any rework, as people are overall resistant to change. I hope that a civil conversation here can result in more being done.

I really do enjoy the idea of empowered Q extending the slow, like Shyvana's auto-attacks extend her W duration. It might be a little tricky to balance out completely, but I think that the re-addition of mark gameplay will help make Skarner more interesting to play as and help to add back some gameplay.

Overall, a lot of people want a weaker, longer slow on Skarner compared to a stronger but shorter slow. Skarner's not made to burst people down in a short time period; he does sustained damage over time, and needs to stick to people to do so.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I really think some relatively small gameplay additions would make Skarner feel good again.

Thanks in advance Scruffy.

Karede3/21/2014, 3:19:11 AM4 votes

This is a reasonable, well thought out post and everything in it is pretty accurate. His ideas are pretty genuine.

Unfortunately, it's not Scruffy's idea, so he's going to just flat-out ignore everything you say. This behavior pattern has been demonstrated perfectly over the last 6 months. (Not kidding, at least 6 months.. October-March)

PaperMache73/21/2014, 6:36:59 PM4 votes

Reposting what I had already said.

Why didn't his Q receive the proper QOL changes for removing the slow on it? Right now unless you're standing right on top of them enemies can just walk out of the Q because of its slow animation and low range. Hecarim's Q in comparison deals damage instantaneously around him and has the same range. So perhaps it would be a good idea to increase it's range by maybe 100 units.

Not only that but why does it still have a weak first cast if the slow is gone? Design wise that was the whole reason it couldn't be full power from the start and it still having one seems unnecessary.

Finally why can't he hold his Q stacks longer? Keeping them up without the permaslow is quite harder not to mention since it now has the AS speed steroid it hurts his clearing a little, because you can't really go from one camp to another without setting yourself up for it. Again the reason he couldn't hold it long was to add counterplay due to the permaslow, with that gone he should be able to hold them much longer.

Pro Anïvïa3/21/2014, 4:01:00 PM4 votes

Additionally it's also REALLY easy to go oom in combat now that you need to be spamming 3 of your spells on cooldown instead of 2.

mi ramfan3/21/2014, 12:18:18 PM4 votes

Because I'm about to disagree on a lot of your key points, let me emphasize this: Skarner's rework needs buffs. Even though you can buy item 3025 to mitigate the loss of the permaslow it comes too late in the game to really make a difference.

I don't think losing the heal on E was necessarily a net loss; the main Skarner build (which was jungle, although top with E spam was definitely a build) never even leveled E before. Losing the heal only became a net loss because the new slow on his E combined with the rampup time on W is just crap.

Honestly, one possible fix could be to make the following change to Skarner's W:

W-Crystalline Exoskeleton

Passive: Skarner gains 2/4/6/8/10% movement speed for 3 seconds each time he deals damage to an enemy champion, stacking up to 3 times. Stacks decay if Skarner does not deal damage to an enemy champion for 3 seconds. Hitting multiple champions with Crystal Slash only applies one stack.

Upon casting Crystalline Exoskeleton, Skarner freezes his passive stacks for 2 seconds, causing them to have no effect but also freezing the decay timer.

Active: Skarner shields himself from the next (whatever current numbers are) damage for 4 seconds, cleanses slows, and gains 30/35/40/45/50% movement speed. While the shield persists, Skarner is immune to slows and snares. If Skarner does not deal damage to an enemy champion before the shield breaks, he loses any stacks of the passive he has.

Basically, the passive of the ability gives him a reverse Boots of Mobility. It grants him the ability to be deceptively fast...IF he manages to stay in range. If opponents use an escape or Flash to create a gap during a gank, then Skarner will probably lose his stacks. However, in a teamfight, Skarner's AoE damage from Q will allow him to quickly stack up to full stacks and remain stacked.

The active is a high risk, high reward chasing/diving ability. The passive created sustained mobility so long as you were actually fighting somebody and not running away. However, the active gives him a short term movement speed buff and immunity to slows to help him close the gap. If he fails to close the gap or is focused out by the enemy team to break the shield, then he loses all of his stacks. This creates a decision to be made by the player; do you stay on the passive stacks in hope that those are enough to catch up after a flash, or do you blow W and go all out, knowing you'll have no way out and no protection if you don't catch them?

Mandarr3/21/2014, 3:14:40 AM4 votes

http://youtu.be/DG3Ty9J7UCU

Not that it didn't get linked enough in the normal thread, but it should also be visible here for the sake of consistency.

Sire Hippington3/21/2014, 5:44:15 PM3 votes

I also think Skarner needs some work. The latest buffs did deffinitly help him alot in the Jungle, but he simply doesn't deliver the good old Scarner feeling, while the new feeling isn't very attracktive(~0.9% pickrate atm...)

And he still is worse than befor in a sololane.
The old Skarner was much better in most matchups, much more sustain, full dps on demand, STICKING POWER, actually higher dps(slightly more as, less cd on E), and u could lvl up W for insane trading power as it increased ur dps and shield at the same time. He also simply scaled better into lategame as his permaslow allowed him to be a huge annoyance as tank, while his ap ratios also allowed him to be a strong Bruiser with the right gear.

Now, his permaslow is gone, so he can't abuse his theoretical dps as good, and he's less disruptive as a tank, while he also won't do as much on ap as befor cause his defensiv scalings and offensiv scalings got nerfed.

For offens, his E simply got 4 sec more cd with the same ratio and base dmg, so his dps got hit quite a bit on ap

For defense, the lost heal was much more powerfull than the new shield buff:

Old effecktive hp/sec from shield+heal(no cdr or passive procs):
15.625(+0.0375) + 9-18(+0.03-0.06)= 24.625 - 33.625(+0.0675 - 0.0975) (healvalues depended on the number of targets)
New effecktive hp/sec from shield: 21.429(+0.0571)
so even vs 1 target, the old shield+heal had better base values and better scaling than the buffed shield

I think the new Skarner needs his heal back, even if the shield values needs to get nerfed then, and consuming the healmark should refresh the E slow(the slow values needs to get lowered then), so u get some of the old stickingpower back, but no permaslow and bound to an skillshot.
He also needs the dmg on his E buffed to 80/130/180/230/280(+0.8ap) to compensate the higher cd.(16.66% more base dmg and 33.3%more scaling still would mean less dps as the cd was increased by 40%)

Even though it's not a huge issue balance wise, the new Q also could need some change.
The empowered mechanic feels pretty od now, as it serves no purpose anymore.
Old scarner needed the 'charge' mechanic to delay his permaslow, as he would have been pretty broken otherwise, but now there is no reason why his Q shouldn't deal full dmg from the first strike.
There is also no conection between the empowered Q mechanic and the stacking as-buff, u do one Q, ur claws start an awsome glowing, but u need 2 more Qs to reach the full as buff.
And the empoered Q just isn't as special as it looks anymore, the dmg difference isn't realy noticable unless u go ap, and thats all, while the visuall effeckt changes from meh to epic.

ShinRaigeki3/21/2014, 2:18:43 AM3 votes

I've already spoken my voice on the subject with my topic: (Shameless advertising go: http://community.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/balance/K1TqWGvE-lets-talk-skarner )

Pyrrasu3/21/2014, 1:32:12 AM3 votes

I absolutely agree. I tried to post support for this idea in the GD thread but I feel like my voice may have been drowned out by all the fighting.

I find it hard to contribute to a teamfight as Skarner unless I'm very fed. A good ult feels great, but once I've ulted I can't do much. Skarner is still very easily kited, with little reward for actually reaching someone. I can't even help peel for my carry...

7thHeaven3/20/2014, 10:24:39 PM2 votes

no need

Elesys3/21/2014, 10:20:32 AM2 votes

As I mentionned in the rework follow through thread, the E is wrong. Long version is here.

TL;DR version :

  • old E reflected Skarner running down on the enemy team, attacking everyone while the sustain encouraged this and announced his soon to come rampage.

  • new E reflects the behaviour of a hunter, meant to chase and kill someone... which is not Skarner's job. His is to weaken "them", as in "several targets". Linear skillshot is inappropriate.

That conflicts with his identity. Overall, he is less fun to play AND the theme is wrongly reflect in his kit. I recall a devblog that says :

When we decide to do a rework, the reason is usually a combination of two factors:

Satisfying execution of a power archetype

Overall game health

It even gives an example :

For instance, if Sejuani’s power archetype was to be a boar-riding warrior with a giant mace, it probably didn’t help that before her rework neither the boar nor the mace were ever used meaningfully in her abilities. Oops.

Here, we have : "The idea behind Skarner is to get on people, stay on them, and really capture that inevitability of being run down by a predatory creature", represented by a champion desperately trying to chase down a single target. Oops.

Shahamut3/21/2014, 12:56:57 PM2 votes

Honestly, I think just removing the speed from W and moving it to Q would be fine. If that were the case, I would be cool with all the stacks falling off together.

I would want activating W to give Skarner a passive AR/MR boost and ignore unit colision while shield persists.

If not the passive defense boost, then a heal with some regen while shield persists. There are so many ways to make this champion better, more viable, and still balanced. I made a thread in GD for a concept for a total rework of Skarner: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=45799935#post45799935

I think I would like to see the current Skarner fixed and made fun and competitive, but I think my suggested rework is FAR better than what they gave us...

Joxac3/21/2014, 3:27:13 PM1 votes

I read through the comments, and I have an idea that could be put together.

How about his e remains as a ranged skill shot, however it latches onto the first person hit. Once it's latched on, he can ult and that person will be instantly dragged into skarner and he can run around with them. The ult can still be used normally at melee range, but when Skarner is latched on it only works on that target.

For his heal, maybe it can either be put in tandem with his w shield, or it can be activated for each subsequent q, like how it used to do magic damage it will instead heal for a percentage of missing health.

I liked old skarner, and i don't mind his remake. I do find it sad that skarner can only be useful if he has the right items and his team is ahead.

Mandarr3/21/2014, 10:55:39 AM1 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=45972921#post45972921

Skarner got mentioned here, although I really don't think 'we're watching him' is the answer to what we want to see. Honestly I feel like we have already had enough band-aid fixes, and that at least in my case I would be poking the crystal scorpion with a stick to check for signs of life.

Trollonasan3/21/2014, 6:07:44 AM1 votes

I do like reapplying the slow with Q's and AA's but permaslow is an issue. I do think they could they make it so that his Q's only extend the duration of the slow for one second or make it so that any reapplication of the slow with Q/AA's is half of the normal slow. Not as annoying as a normal permaslow but just as rewarding.

SvenVvath3/21/2014, 4:59:48 AM1 votes

It might really make Skarner too strong. I want to agree pretty badly but the fact is that Skarner can deal harder than anyone level 3. Much like Elise, if you catch the enemy jungler they're forced to leave and you can easily farm enemy jungle and gank lanes constantly. Adding a second slow might put it over the top. He is currently high mechanincs and my favorable item build has high core costs but the early strength to set back the enemy jungler and pressure the map gives him time for that.

Try Eldar Lizard + Sheen after invading and warding enemy jungler. You might weep. I was really hoping for that missile speed increase so enemies couldn't casually walk in from of my E... then realize they were gunna get hit and casually walk the other way and completely dodge it =[. He's not a passive jungler for sure. I'll have to play him more to find his current weaknesses and I'm low elo, but right now if you double buff ward invade, you instantly create pressure where you can't with early cc ganks.

noWayz3/22/2014, 12:20:59 PM1 votes

You know they could make it so his slow is refreshed with his Q.so you would have to land the E and refresh it with Q

HigeR3/25/2014, 10:39:13 PM1 votes

I'm gonna regret putting this out in the open...

Skarner is in fact, quite OP and not undertuned at all... the thing is, you cannot build him as you used to, he no longer has any use for AD, nor tank stats... I won't expose his AP ratios here since you can look it up yourself and do the correspondent calculations... A item 3027 is your best friend now, as well as a lot of AP, with barely 300 AP your shield value comes close to 500 at lvl 5, your first Q doesn't scale but your subsequent ones do, your E and R has CRAZY damage on them with 300 AP too. Also item 3100 or item 3025

So I agree when you say Skarner is not the same one he used to be, also, when you say Skarner doesn't has sticking power anymore, you're right, he doesn't, because he doesn't need to, one E, Autos and couple Qs can and will deter your enemy before their slow is over.

Oddly enough, his rework shifted his identity from a Fighter/tank to a Fighter/mage or sorts which is weird since I think I remember scruffy saying that he saw no value in AP Skarner's build but guess what? AP skarner is C-R-A-Z-Y good.

Now, how can you achieve huge amounts of AP in the jungle? that's a bit hard, farming a Rod of Ages in the jungle is a demonic task, also, you wanna have it as soon as possible so jungling might not be his best choice... A solo lane will have him bullied hard, mid is out of the question and Top you need to be veeeeery careful, you don't wanna set the enemy snowball in motion... so, what's left? Support, and this is just theory since I haven't tried Skarner support yet buuuuut my guess is that he is quite strong with his slow proccing spellthief edge.

my 2 cents...

Phoneixflare3/27/2014, 4:30:28 AM1 votes

I think they should just change his w to make it not 'ramp up' because that's so stupid and Riot knows it. For what logical reason should it ramp up? Does his crystalline exoskeleton need time to build on him? if that is the case, make the ramp up better.

Amachy4/3/2014, 5:42:53 AM1 votes

sure kid