@Riot - I would love to talk balance with you guys on several different aspects of League.

Steelflame·Sep 29, 2013·2 votes·555 views

Let me give a bit more background on myself before going deeper into this further in the thread...

I have played League now for nearly two and a half years now, having joined way back around May of 2011 (between Jarvan and Nocturne's release). Over this time, I have probably played close to 4000 games of League of Legends, and consider myself a very active member of the League of Legends community. I have been a gamer for over 10 years now, having played almost everything from the old classics of Mario and The Legend of Zelda, some current hot topics of several parts of the CoD franchise, to many action/adventure games like the entirety of the LoZ batch, Sonic the Hedgehog, Jak and Daxter, tons of strategy games like the Age of Empires series, and Rome Total War, am a server owner for a small Minecraft server called Magipunk, and in the more recent years quite a few MMOs, like Runes of Magic (A WoW-like game), Fantasy Earth Zero (a game a bit like a MOBA), and many more games in general, too many to list here. I was one of the lucky summoners to obtain one of the Santa Baron icons, showing me as a player who actively tries to be a good part of the community. I spend a lot of time on the forums, and recently hit a goal of reaching Plat (currently Plat III) in solo queue. I love helping other players out on learning the game and bettering themselves, so long as they are willing to put forth the effort needed to improve. I consider myself knowledgeable about the game, at least to an extent (or I wouldn't be trying to help people improve themselves), and would love to work for you guys on the Live Balance team.

I want to find a way to move on in my life, but currently am running into dead ends here on how I can further progress for my goals of joining you all. I don't have any professional experience, and a degree in game balance.... isn't exactly something reasonable to obtain. I can't really give you guys a resume with any great value in it, due to this lacking experience. So I have decided that I would love to have a public talk with you guys on a great variety of many aspects of League balance, and discuss a great deal of things with you all an many facets of balance, from champions to items to the map(s) itself, as all directly interact with each other in dynamically for balance, as something to help this resume out. I wouldn't expect this to get me hired flat out, but it would be a great way to help me get my foot in the door. At the best, this might get you all to help me further my goal of joining you all, resulting in me getting hired eventually down the line. At worse, assuming you all respond to this, we get a nice, in depth discussion about many parts of League balance, and a chance for a lot of us to see inside the minds of you Rioters.

I'll finish with this... post replies of several things you think are worth talking about, and I will do my best to state how I feel on these things in a decisive, in depth manner, and what could potentially be done to help fix these problems, be it a champion/item being underpower, overpowered, or in a bad state in low play/counterplay. I do not restrict responding to these to Rioters, I will happily respond to anyone who wants to talk balance, both to give myself something to think upon, as well as to respond and perhaps help people learn how to deal with this problem if it is something they can deal with themselves. Tell me the champion/item, and in what state you consider it (do you want buffs, nerfs, general rework, ect), and I will talk as in depth about what I think could be a good thing to do for this champion based upon what I know. If you do not wish to post one of these things, but show interest in this thread, I will instead talk about several aspects that I consider potential balance issues.

Come tomorrow I will post the first of several topics of discussion in this thread, and I'll keep posting them for a while. To the people who would wish to support me in my quest to join Riot, posting on my alternate GD thread http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41847536#post41847536 would help a ton. Thank you those of you who read this to this point, and now all I have to say is that I have set the court for play, so will any of you join me in this game of discussion?

8 Comments

OmnipheriousSep 29, 20133 votes

Hello Steelflame, I would like to chime in. Unfortunately, I won't be contributing to the Zyra discussion you've proposed. I will instead be recommending that you take a different approach to what you are trying to accomplish.

From where I stand, you are trying to accomplish the following:

Demonstrate that you are knowledgeable about the game
Gather a following / create a good reputation - presumably by posting regular discussions on topics you've outlined
Present yourself in an appealing manner to Riot Games

Given the nature of what you are trying to do, I would assume that this method will prove rather ineffective. This is due to the forums moving quickly, no guarantee that relevant parties will contribute to the proposed discussions, unreliable Red participation, etc. Unless you do something exceptional, like vLemon did on the PBE forums in the past for example, I highly doubt discussions alone will be able to carry you through.

So instead I propose that you make a YouTube series instead that focuses on these balance discussions you want to do (get some friends into it to make it easier?). Make them short (2 - 3 mins), interesting (game footage / LoL Replays / tourney VODs / MS paint drawings / etc) and be specific.

For example, the series itself could be called "FotM" with this specific discussion called "FotM EP 1 - Zyra".
0:00 - 1:00
Intro ~10s? > Mention Zyra's recent popularity + where / why it started ~10s > Short Analysis 1: Why it works in Solo Q ~40s
1:00 - 2:00
SA 2: Her strengths + weaknesses > SA 3: Zyra vs other supports > SA 4: Zyra in the current meta ~20s each give or take
2:00 - 3:00
SA 5: Your opinion (OP/UP?, for gameplay - problem or healthy?, etc) > SA 6: What can/should be done + Miscellaneous ~30s each

This is a simple format that gets everything important across in a nice condensed package. But what about feedback?? No problem, make a thread + link it and mention in the video. Got a new series called "Top Lane Terrors" which focuses on top lane analysis only? Do the same. Be consistent with your updates and get a format going. No patch / balance changes for a while? Do an item discussion instead.

Check out Ciderhelm - http://www.youtube.com/user/Ciderhelm
His "Learn the League" series is short and immensely helpful. For more specialized / in-depth stuff he has the "Don't Feed" series. Take a few notes from this, find your own space and make your mark.

Remember, it's not how much you say but how well you say it. If you are really serious, I would suggest you do this instead. It'll get you more exposure, let you practice speaking and help you generate some brand recognition. It will also probably be more impressive as part of a resume.

My sincerest apologies for not contributing to your Zyra discussion but I feel this was more important for me to say.

Best of luck.

SteelflameSep 29, 20132 votes

Thanks, and no problem not contributing to the Zyra part. Also, I posted this here because the the greater Red access, and the fact that any thread here usually has some decent uptime currently due to the relatively low traffic that the beta forums have so far.

Also, the beta forums, for this type of discussion do have greater utility than the normal forums, in one of the few cases I consider this style to be dominant.

EDIT: Further point to my reasoning for this type of discussion. The very nature of a discussion. If I set up a video, and make it all nice and fancy, it doesn't really enable a discussion between parties, but a single party telling the other what to do.

This itself is not what I want to do, what I want to do is discuss something with another human, not talk at another human and hope they agree. Also, I am open to changing my own ideas.... but I can only change them with feedback from others. This is why I honestly feel this is the best potential format for what I want to do.

What you are recommending would be best for something else that while I want to do (help other people learn the strengths and weaknesses of a champion/item/ect), it doesn't actively open a way to talk about things which could improve the game as a whole, just improve that player's interaction with the game. Also, I have a weakness when it comes to talking vocally, due to a lacking ability in interacting with others. I have a very sporadic thought process, and talking tends to result in me bouncing around between many ideas rapidly, sometimes too fast to follow. Meanwhile, I can type clearly and concisely, allowing me to organize my thoughts before letting them loose.

SteelflameSep 29, 20132 votes

Opening up my discussion with my first point of interest, the champion Zyra. As a heavy Zyra player, I feel comfortable making the first thing I talk about her.

First, her role in League...  As is Zyra is a strong zone control mage, with decent levels of CC.  Her damage is above average, and she possesses great tools to control a region, or help her team take an objective.  I consider her both a strong mid laner, as well as a dominant support.  

Second, what I consider possible problems in her balance/gameplay.  In her current iteration, she actually is quite heavily dominating bot lane, with massive levels of vision control/fighting potential, kicking out almost any melee support flat out.  From the mid lane, she brings insane damage, nearly rivaling an assassin, in a pretty large radius, as well as great wave clear and zone control.  This leaves her as a very strong pick, which while not having been completely picked up yet by the community at large, I feel will probably start heavily showing up again once current FotMs start dieing down.

As is, she is somewhat close to a balanced state, being a little stronger than the average. Not problematic, par say, but could use some faint toning down. Personally, I feel a big thing that should probably be adjusted with her is her seed/plant mechanics. As is, currently, there are very few decisions when it comes to using your plants Vine Lasher (the melee one) and Thorn Spitter (ranged one), for several reasons. Reason 1 - Thorn Spitter has equal damage and durability as Vine Lasher, but much greater range and zone control, at the cost of a very small slow that Vine Lasher has. This means there are very few reasons to ever opt into proccing the seeds with Grasping Roots, unless it just is literally not an option, almost purely due to the short range they possess. Another problem I see in her kit is how her plant damage is in no way tied to the rank of either her ability she cast it with, or the ranking of her seeds themselves. This results in a lot of free power in her seeds in the mid game which I honestly disagree with her having. This makes it so that even if she only has a single point in Deadly Bloom (Q), she still has a full powered Thorn Spitter with its incredible zone control as a support, despite focusing much more on her Grasping Roots for the CC it provides. This further makes the choice in which plant to use a non-issue, as yet again Thorn Spitter proves incredibly dominant, even as a support who has put only a single point in it's trigger ability until much later on.

The final part, Part 3, is in a further reply due to length restrictions.

SteelflameSep 29, 20132 votes

Part 3 - Solutions I could see to nip these problems in the bud, without dramatically altering her play style, while also giving you more levers to tweak for future balance decisions on her.

Solution to one problem - Lack of meaningful choices in skill order - Tie her plant damage either to her actual rank of her Rampant Growth (W), or at least to her skill it was based on, possibly both, rather than the current level based system. I personally prefer fully linking it to her Rampant Growth, as this makes it so that seed choices are not purely based on "which primary ability did I max first?" while making the choice of what secondary ability she maxes a very meaningful decision. This system would make what you choose after having maxed Q or E in lane very important, because it would heavily determine your further play style. If you max W second, vs E, as AP mid Zyra, you are trading out a large portion of your burst damage and CC, for much stronger sustained damage and zone control. Meanwhile, as support Zyra, the choice in W or Q second now becomes quite a big game changer for her. Again, W or Q now makes her have to choose, do I want to focus on zone control and vision, or pure raw damage for these fights? On the support side of things, this will probably kick her a bit down, as she no longer gets the much stronger damage maxing Q second can provide her.

Solution to problem two - Lack of meaningful choices in which plant to use for a given situation - As is, there is nearly no choice when it comes to which plant to use for a given situation, just because of how much her Thorn Spitters outclass her Vine Lashers. A solution to this could be to faintly nerf her Thorn Spitter, while giving a counteracting buff to her Vine Lasher. The changes I would give...

Thorn Spitter does 10-20% less damage than currently.

This nerfs Thorn Spitter a slight bit, not much, but enough to give a little more reason to actually try and make good use of her Vine Lasher, over her Spitter for zone control.

Vine Lashers are 50-100% more durable.

This, on top of them doing more damage than the Spitters, would make them feel much more useful overall. If the Lasher provided a much more longer lasting threat, it would heavily increase the value of it. It would also open it up to utilizing it as a mini-tank for objectives, or perhaps protecting a few Thorn Spitters placed a little farther back. Vine Lashers are still heavily worthless at protecting themselves from even a slightly ranged threat, but now can at least soak a little abuse as a trade off.

Note that these exact numbers are heavily depending on testing, but these changes can help tone down Zyra, while opening much deeper levels of play to her, as well as set in place future tools to buff/nerf her as needed.

Finished with this portion of my discussion, I will happily defend my view points in further replies after this, but do keep this specific thread focused purely on Zyra, please. I will happily do one for literally every champion and even item in the League, but lets keep it clean and organized, k?

TortferngatrSep 29, 20131 votes

Hmm. As someone else who wants to possibly join Riot at some point (and who sometimes plays Zyra, preferring her when I play Summoner's Rift support,) I'll give feedback.

I love the idea of Vine Lashers being more durable than Thorn Spitters. While I initially objected since it would mean Thorn Spitters would be prone to getting CS'd under turrets instead of being killed by them, I realized that you don't use Vine Lashers to harass under turret in the first place.

I am less certain that tying ALL her plant damage to her W level is a good idea in terms of actually nerfing her without making Zyra players feel bad. Not only does making plants scale with W level seem like it would make no difference to how her plants proc Liandry's Torment, it also sounds like it could mean plants feel a lot less meaningful at low levels (when they're meant to be her signature gameplay mechanic) if you have no desire to ONLY utilize plants as a damage source.

Personally, I'd prefer to SLIGHTLY scale the attack speed of both plants with W level, make Q levels increase Q plant damage (also nerfing its early damage to, say, 60% of what it is now), and make E levels SLIGHTLY increase E plant's damage and slow. It seems like that would serve to make leveling W more meaningful on AP Zyra [bolster plant DPS] and Q levels more meaningful on support Zyra [bolster poke and teamfight Q plant DPS] without invalidating her kit's other options.

SteelflameSep 30, 20131 votes

Thanks for liking the first part, and remember... currently she only gets maxed out plants, regardless of point distribution, at level 18. With this change, Zyra actually could push for a much stronger batch of plants earlier. She might lose a bit of their strength a little earlier on from 3-10, but the trade is she can them be stronger mid game than they currently are. And if you are using them correctly as is, there is almost no way a melee can fight back vs her because of how much the plants currently do without much investment.

Currently (assuming the wiki is accurate on the exact numbers) her plants do 26+6xlevel+20% AP. Close to 40 damage at level 2, that means. By level 9, her plants are 80 damage before AP/MR. By 18, her plants have a base damage of 134.

What this change would do is change this powerscale on her plants. As is, dropping a point in W would still give you the 40 damage plants by default. Second point would give you 65 damage, third 90, 115, 140.

At this point, at level 10 (assuming plant maxed second) you are exactly where you were at level 10 last time, but you no longer have the two extra points put in your E, or minus 70 damage on her combo overall.

And remember... part of the goal is to nerf her, a small bit. This also would give more levers to tune and balance her with now that the values are more in-depth. Oh, did the -20% damage on her Thorn Spitters turns out it isn't working out, and she is losing some of her zone control? Perhaps tone it back, or strengthen her Lasher's control with higher damage

Also, remember that both changes do not need to be done. These are ideas, that would need to be put though play testing, before they could be attempted to be applied. This is just something that helps remove some of her lacking decision making process, while giving her back a little more after this whole she-bang is finished. You can always go back and tune the numbers though playtesting, nothing says these values are fixed.

tehdefOct 1, 20132 votes

I'll be honest with you bud. Putting your gamer qualifications means absolutely nothing. Do you know why? Because someone who doesn't understand games, can still provide relevant information to a discussion. In fact, as a host of focus groups I sometimes find that the most helpful feedback comes from people who DONT play games. With that said, talking about how many games you've played, and for how long is more of a self important pat on the back than valuable information.

Following that, you state you want to have a public discussion with Riot about a great man balance issues you have with League. Here is my problem... where is that discussion? Am I missing it? Why are you asking for permission? I get you want to work for Riot, but if you behave in this manner you'll never get it. You're far too timid and non-assertive to get what you want. Riot wants do'ers, not askers. You don't ask to do something, you do it.

Finally, you won't win anyone over trying to crowdsource your employment to Riot when you provide zero substance to why you deserve a spot over someone else. Because you talked about all the games you played? So what? You're not special, and you don't deserve a spot just because you play games.

As they say, Shit off get off the pot. If you want to have a discussion, then have a discussion. Don't ask for one, because you won't get anything but my downvotes.

SteelflameSep 30, 20131 votes

Alright, this time around I am going to talk about a very popular champion, with a very high pick/ban rate, at least in solo queue, Thresh. I personally actually consider him pretty decently balanced, a bit strong. He has one mechanic though that I HEAVILY thinks should be adjusted. Dark Passage. As is, at a single point, it is nearly a 1-2k distance gap closer/maker based on optimal usage. The skill itself has very low counterplay the enemy can try and exert on it. In an engaging scenario, his WQ super-drag can let him bring someone from insane distances, leading to nearly impossible to stop jungle ganks if they are co-ordinated. In a defensive scenario, Thresh can drop the lantern on the target, and run back. If you chase Thresh, you might just let the target you are fighting run away. If they stay and fight you on the lantern, the moment Thresh has built up enough distance, they instantly will get dragged out of a horrid scenario. You can't stop Thresh's pull except through some quite frankly incredible luck in perfectly standing on the lantern (it isn't easy to block its insane hit box out), or having a displacement ability and perfectly timing it to the moment the target tries to use the lantern.

This literally comes from a single point in the skill, this massive power. Sure, he can put more points in for a slightly stronger shield, but it doesn't need it for it's primary function, being one of the longest range instant movement abilities in the game.

I would wish to remove this 1 point wonder nature in his Dark Passage, by quite simply making the leash range on it be based on the rank of the skill. At rank 1, it would be half the current maximum range he can run from it before it auto-snaps back to him. By the time he finally has put all the points into it, it finally is back up to it's super-range mode. This also makes the decision of chasing Thresh a stronger choice when trying to catch someone he is lantern pulling, as they don't have nearly as long a gap they can gain via stalling you hard, nor as potent a get out of jail free card, at least early on. It takes a lot of time for Thresh to reach super-pull mode, unless he is sacrificing his damage and peeling power in his Flay for the sake of the longer leash on his Passage, which is MORE than a good enough trade off for the earlier get out of jail card being stronger. As is, it is almost purely a non-issue for the Thresh player to just say "max E, then decide what I want more after that, a stronger shield, or a shorter CD on my pull." Now it is a choice of "Do I wish to maximize my fighting potential and peeling ability, or maximize my ability to set up Dark Passage to enable stronger ganking potential for our jungler, or to enable my carry to escape much tougher situations."

I feel this change alone, without any other tuning of his numbers, could heavily help tone his power level down to a more reasonable level. You might even throw a buff on his Q to make it so that it also is a more potent choice, meaning Thresh's choices are very depending on the game situation on what is truly the best skill to max out, as a trade for this nerf.