Jax has no counterplay past a certain point

Paintank·3/22/2014, 4:46:41 PM·2 votes·1,099 views

I want to address Jax as he is currently. As it stands, he is arguably one of the best hyper carries in the game past a certain time frame, on par with Poppy in many respects. The only difference between him and Poppy though is that Poppy has an atrocious laning phase and Jax's isn't that bad.

I know that many people say that all you have to do is beat him early, but with Jax, it doesn't matter if you win early or lose early, once it hits around the 20 minute mark, he's gonna be wrecking everything in site. He currently is the only champ in the game that gets more defensive stats that more damage he builds. We saw that Riot believed that Galio being able to build MR and do more damage because of it was lacking counterplay and was overall unhealthy gameplay, however, they allow jax to do the same thing, but opposite and with more stats.

Galio only allows for 50% MR, so if there is a person dealing most physical damage, then he's gonna get rocked pretty hard IE his counterplay. Jax on the other hand is not weak against anything and has no counterplay. If it's not ok to build tanky and be on par with the damage other champions have, then why is it ok to build more damage than others and be on par of the tankiness than other champions? Moral of the story: if we've decided that free tanking stats and free damage stats are overall toxic to gameplay, then make it the same for everyone. The arguement that he has a cooldown on his ult is not acceptable, a 80 second cooldown for an ability that lasts 8 seconds (the length of the average team fight) that also has a passive effect of dealing massive damage on a 3rd strike. Without building any CDR, and just having blue buff, blue pot and the CDR offensive masteries, your ult will be on a 60 second CD. Now add in the fact that it lasts 8 seconds and that means that ever 52 seconds you can use your ult, not exactly a big time frame.

Overall, he has way too many free stats. Free attackspeed bonus, free armor, free MR, free flat damage reduction. Heck, for a while you had to implement an item that was almost solely designed to kill him (SoTD). Thank the lord you took out his passive dodge, but I digress.

I have a few suggestions on how to change him/make him fall in line a little better.

Ult: complete change, a passive ult is not a good thing. No champ should have the damage that implements while having the utility as well. I know there will be hate for this, but it needs something changed.

My suggestion: He's a grandmaster at arms meaning he can use all weapons. Make it so that his ult temporarily steals the weapon the person is using (IE, if it's aatrox, he starts using his darkin blade). Could have it programmed to show him throw his lamp down and start using their weapon. The bonus to this could be a slight damage buff to him and damage nerf to enemy. the bonus ad buff/ap buff would be stringent on what the player has more of at the time. So if you're fighting a fiora with 300 AD, he'll steal ad from her and have an ad bonus and if he's fighting a vlad with 300 ap, he'll get an ap bonus.

To me, currently, the grandmaster at arms is a better duelist than the grand duelist...it just doesn't make any sense thematically. If his story is that he's only using a lamp post because he wants to give others a chance, then why not make it so his ult allows him to use a "real weapon?" Simply giving him defenses that scale from damage and a huge damage buff is not the answer.

This will allow him to make a choice on to build huge damage and be kinda squishy, or build huge defenses and hope my ult can carry me through in the damage department.

10 Comments

Kira Onime3/22/2014, 7:02:08 PM5 votes

No counter play after a certain point?

Imagine if he had a real weapon.

Icethorne3/22/2014, 5:15:56 PM2 votes

I disagree, as I play Jax frequently, I can describe a few ways Jax can be taken out. There are a few ways which can shut Jax out of games, note this way is probably the least common, Teemo's blind has a way of shutting out just about any "Auto Champ" in lane and in fights.

You can also use his CDs against him considering his stun is on a massive cooldown utilizing observation of when he uses certain skills to trade with Jax will give you an advantage.

Crowd Control of any sort to include stuns and roots will destroy Jax.

Ranged armor pen champions like Ashe can effectively keep Jax at bay as long as you know how to do it. This also includes Jinx, Caitlyn, and Draven. Other ADCs like Lucian and Miss Fortune would have to excel in keeping Jax away by utilizing slows and dashes.

Alot of beating any champion in game is knowing how to build against what the enemy is building. Take Master Yi for example, Thornmail will destroy him.

Jax's stun and jump are his crucial abilities when these are on CD he has nothing much to do other than auto attacks and since he is melee he becomes extremely vulnerable to ganks.

As far as his scaling... despite the many bonuses Jax has he doesn't ever seem to snowball out of control with these stat bonuses that are currently in effect. I myself have beaten my lane with Jax only to still have a little struggle dueling or trading with some champions such as Volibear with that ridiculous regen. Any good Trundle can eat Jax up as well not to mention Cho with his ult. Honestly I think Cho is probably the easiest counter to Jax. All you have to do is silence him and use your knockup then continue your auto damage then do true damage to finish him off keeping him silenced is the main part of the fight.

Concerning the ultimate... i love the idea of mimicing the weapon but honestly in team fight jax's stun if the winner. Usually Jax ult will make him the tank of a team fight but with the proper crowd control effects you can take jax out of the team fight completely allowing your team to focus the enemy team's ADC and Mid laner effectively winning the team fight. Now I have seen some snowball jax's get solo pentas but honestly after studying the fights the other players never seem to know how to play they seem almost ready to panic and run as soon as they see him LOL. I can use Karma to keep Jax under control effectively as a support that would allow my teammates to smack him around a bit.

Any other opinions on Jax?

Remlap12233/22/2014, 7:55:46 PM2 votes
  • Yeah there is counter plays against Jax. You out-tank him, or find somebody that can safely kite him and burst him down. Malphite wrecks Jax, so does Singed. Also this game isn't about kills and how strong champions are. While Jax can be a late game monster on par with Udyr, if top lane gets wrecked, and top gets to roam and help other lanes, Jax's late game is meaningless when the Nexus is pushed.
Hullabaloo9073/23/2014, 12:26:46 AM2 votes

I think some slight nerfs to his laning phase would be nice. But really, the counter play to jax is that if he isnt ahead, his effect on the team fights shrinks a ton. It is the same with any melee adc.

Paintank3/25/2014, 12:14:52 AM1 votes

Everything that has been listed as a counter to my argument that he lacks counter play has only further proved my point. The only thing that people have said is to counter pick him, not counter play him. Champion that has to have a team geared towards fighting him and him alone isn't a champion that is healthy for day to day operations.

First argument was to out tank him:

Jax does duel damage types with rather high ap and ad ratios on all abilities, add in his ramping attack speed bonus and the only thing you're left to do is build anti-attack speed things. Otherwise it will be very difficult to face tank both ap and ad damage like that. The only tank that can straight up do that is malphite due to his attack speed slow ability, another example of having to counter pick him rather than counter play him.

I know other say build a frozen heart or a randuin's which I agree with, however, any jax that's not mentally handicapped will know that you don't go for extended engages on those. You prime your 3rd strike, jump on the opponent with an empowered smack and back off. Wait for the next time, eventually the person will be worn down and because they have nothing but armor, they will end up taking a lot of damage.

Second argument was to kite him:

With the introduction of BoRK, this is easier said than done. The example given was Ashe and Singed, another example of having to counter pick him rather than counter play him. This would have worked pre-bork, but since bork was introduced this isn't really an option. Most people who operate with the idea of kiting have only one slow. With jax, he has a gap closer, bork slow, and his stun. If one fails, the other is up, and by that time, he has some really explosive damage that only will take a couple hits to kill you with.

Third argument was to pick teemo:

Straight up counter pick, not counter play.

Fourth argument was his counterstrike is on a super long cooldown:

His counterstrike is the second shortest cooldown to a team wide hard CC, second only to cho'gaths rupture, the difference of 1 second and the fact that Jax's is a defensive ability as well as a CC. Not a valid excuse if other people have a longer CD on a less useful ability.

Fifth argument was he is only strong in blind:

[quote] Riven and Jax will always have a major advantage on Blind picks as they are very vulnerable to counter comps [/quote]

So in other words, counter picks. Which Riot already took a stance that they want to promote counter play not counter picks.

Also:

While a weakish excuse, this will actually directly conflict with his lore, as Jax himself limits himself to a lampost due to his "yet unbroken win record". Personally I like the idea, but that's the only real problem I see.

^ This shows you didn't read the last part of my original post, as I referenced this exact thing in there.

If his story is that he's only using a lamp post because he wants to give others a chance, then why not make it so his ult allows him to use a "real weapon?"

ploki1223/22/2014, 6:00:50 PM1 votes

Actually, I feel like Poppy is an exacerbated Jax. Her laning phase has strong times and weak ones, and if you can use those you will be able to breeze through most lanes (hard counters excluded). So yes, Poppy has an harder lane, but she also has a way more toxi late game. If you get matched against an AD poppy who chooses to split push, the only thing you can do is send someone that can 1v1 her without turret help to stop her, or win the game 5v4 before she kills your nexus. Even if you send 5 members to kill her, she should be able to escape blowing only a ~60s cd (and maybe killing 1 of your guys).

RussianBomber1233/22/2014, 7:40:13 PM1 votes

jax does have a counter play and this is how you do it dont fight

Sir ArmaMalum3/22/2014, 5:18:52 PM1 votes

Overall, he has way too many free stats.

He has free stats because he is a fighter, and most if not all fighters have inherently overpowered kits. Not saying this is a good thing or that it doesn't need to be worked on, but it's an established pain point that has gotten the "we're working on it" response. It's very hard to balance a role that's meant to do enough damage to be threatening but survive a team fight when they're melee.

He currently is the only champ in the game that gets more defensive stats that more damage he builds

He's not actually the only one to have defense out of offense, Riven has an AD based shield that does a lot of work if used right. It's not stats, granted, but a shield has the benefit of not suffering from diminishing returns. It's not an often designed mechanic and has easy abuse points, but the same argument for it can be argued for her. It makes defensive items actually worse for them, forcing them into a damage build to play right.

Jax on the other hand is not weak against anything and has no counterplay

Riven and Jax will always have a major advantage on Blind picks as they are very vulnerable to counter comps, particularly silences and burst. But that will never happen outside of a draft pick. They profit of of an extended engage in teamfights and if they are not dealt with nigh immediately they will kill your entire team, it's what they're designed to do if they are played correctly. The tradeoff is that they leave a weaker frontline for their team defensivley and make their team very vulnerable to a diver of your own. Unfortunately tank supports (besides maybe Leona) and peel heavy champions are not the current FotM for comps with the support (second APC) changes, so Riven and Jax have been having a field day. Riven in the mid-game, and Jax in the late.

a passive ult is not a good thing

I actually vehemently disagree. It's one of the largest portions of his kit's power and is gated to not be accessible until 6. putting it anywhere else will increase his laning power by a good amount and take away one of his chief weaknesses. And as for his free stats, he doesn't get free health anymore, instead he gets mitigation, which if he builds full damage does not go nearly as far as it normally does. This forces him to build a health item (I usually see Mogs or Mallet) and taking away a little of his offensive capacity. By your comment on his dodge passive I'm assuming you remember his old kit.

He's a grandmaster at arms meaning he can use all weapons

While a weakish excuse, this will actually directly conflict with his lore, as Jax himself limits himself to a lampost due to his "yet unbroken win record". Personally I like the idea, but that's the only real problem I see.